"Greetings Mr. Taak!
I am hoping to make a glorious Space Wolf army with your help of course! I am being inspired by your Dread wolves and your glorious triumph of the Hero-hammer at Cryx Cup! I am wanting to do something similar but with thunder wolves. I am thinking at 2000 points a massive list with 4 wolf Lords on Thunder wolves. The 4 horsemen of the apocalypse! J/K I do not know what to include on troops though. Should I make one of them Canis Wolfborn and say to hell with troops and take fenrisian wolves? Or try to get some real scoring units?
I think 1100 points to 1200 points of WL greatness may be too much but seeing your triumphs has pushed me over the edge to create this beast! Any help with list idea is appreciated! May Allah bless you friend!
Sincerely,
Nasir Al-Asad"
Greetings Nasir Al-Asad,
My Hero-Hammer Space Wolves worked largely because I play in a predominately Comp Environment and so the armies I am likely to face are far less consistently
The key thing to remember when designing a Thunderwolf heavy army is that it is pointless to run a buggerload of TW's if when they reach the enemy lines they can't start chewing on the troops immediately, that instead they have to crack open the transports and other armour to get to the valuable infantry which will win or lose most missions for your opponent. More so, if you take a list which just preys to the emperor that it'll be fine as it runs in, it will take an absolute munting from enemy firepower and not arrive in enough force to do damage. So you need fire support and suppression.
In a Space Wolf army, there are three notable ways to include such force multipliers.
The first would be Long Fangs with Missile Launchers, though I also throw 2 with Lascannons in for heavier armour in most of my lists per unit, just because they do better for me how I play. Other people profess that the all Missile Launcher build is more points efficient and flexible, but lets be frank, you can split firepower and frag blasts against an experienced horde player are only gonna hit one model anyways unless they scatter and even then, two models hit isn't great so the weakness of the single shot lascannon against horde armies isn't that bad, at least to my reasoning and experience. Moreover, a lot of the Internet authors about the place such as Stelek over on yesthetruthhurts have been proponents of killing the Long Fang Squad Leader before ditching a Heavy Weapon. Pro Tip: Don't do this. the ability to split firepower far outweighs the loss of a single Heavy Weapon. If your Long Fangs can hit two targets each turn, then this is far more effective then hitting one.
The second is to run a couple or even a trio of Riflemen Dreadnoughts. The two twin-linked autocannon dreadnought is great as it has a high range and high rate of fire able to deal with up to medium infantry reliably, instant death a bunch of the weaker characters out there, and also deal with light to medium armour very effectively whilst also being able to torrent wounds onto Monstrous Creatures or other resilient targets (such as Thunderwolf Cavalry for example). It's a solid choice which is seeing more widespread use these days across all marine army types.
The third is to run suicide-melta units in the form of Wolf Guard with combi-melta's. As a general rule, 3 WG with combi-melta's will melt through armour reliably, usually leading to destruction of said vehicle. My preferred method more and more these days is to drop them in via drop pod, 3 WG with combi-meltas in a Drop Pod is 104 points, you play them ultra aggressively and drop them in close and hope you don't scatter too badly, hop out and bam melta heavy armoured targets that will prove an issue to the rest of your army, or more importantly, crack shield vehicles so as other support elements can get unobstructed shots at artillery claiming cover from the shielding vehicles. I used to run a unit that had 5 WG with 3 combi meltas, 1 combi flamer, and one in Tactical Dreadnought Armour (Terminator Armour - shorthand of TDA) with Power Sword and Heavy Flamer mounted in a drop pod. At 165pts the unit has the flexibility to deal with any opponent either hordes or mech, more importantly it becomes a distraction unit right in your opponents face, if they ignore it, next turn you chew through stuff solidly or run amok behind their lines, or even use them to block movement of the opponent and restrict fire lines to your closing assault elements. Either of those two options work, but the unit of 3 WG base with combi-meltas is useful because we can drop that in whilst taking 2 extra WG one with combi-weapon and one with TDA+SB+PW+CML and attach the combi-weapon to your GH units and the CML to the LF support or even the CML into the GH units so as you have more units able to deal with mech and strong enemies at range.
The important thing here is that we don't want to rely on just one form of support, we have elite and heavy support options so lets mix it up nicely. If you run the WG units, then they are in Drop Pods, so you run the minimum number of Drop Pods on Long Fang units to ensure you can drop all your units of WG into the enemies face on your first turn (If one unit WG, no LF DP; if 2 WG, 1 LF; if 3 WG, 2 LF DP's) and then can avoid Drop Pods elsewhere in the force. The reason for this is that Drop Wolves are not what you want to focus on, they aren't as great as some other drop pod forces out there and definitely fall short of a decent of angels blood angels force...you want your whole army on the board from the first turn, if this means 2 Drop Pods don't show up till randomly after the first turn, then so be it. You don't want to draw attention to the Drop Pods really anyways, they are cheap Kill points and once your TW units hit the enemy they shouldn't have the numbers or strength to deal with the Drop pods in the late game.
Troops. You have to have them. My good mate Antique_Nova is a huge supporter of large troop units, usually a unit of 9 or 10 GH's in a Rhino with Wolf Standard twin melta's and a Powerfist, or if a WG joins (which they do for that vital extra point of leadership to leadership 9 - more important then many people credit it for) the PF on the WG as it is more points efficient for a larger outlay of attacks. Myself, I'm a proponent of small units. More importantly, a proponent of small units with flamers. In a razorwolf army, I've already got massive amounts of anti-tank/heavy target firepower or combat potential, but I am missing the ability to burn through masses of troops. Flamers work wonders here. I believe it was fester who did an article a while ago on how hordes beat so called top tier army lists because people don't play/design the lists to deal with horde as well as they should. My own experiences point to flamers as being your best friend. Lets face it, in a TW centric army, you need more massed anti-infantry - TW's are expensive, and whilst they can hold their own against most opponents, sheer numbers will overwhelm them. My own units are usually 5 GH's with a flamer in a las/plas razorback, or all over the shop in my "Dread Wolves" but for you, I'm suggesting Rhino's. The reason being is they allow you to do drive by's. 5 GH's+WG with combi-flamer in a rhino, clocks in at 133 points. That's a fair wack of points. We'll come back to troops in the list below shortly as I haven't added points up with where I am headed with it just yet so we'll see how it goes and how the wolf guard units are built.
So, to the meat of the army: Thunderwolves.
Running massively overpriced Thunderwolf Lords in a non-comp list is a bad thing. they are nasty, but they will die. What you need is a cheap way to get ablative wounds. Taking 2 Fenrisian Wolves on each TWL is great as it allows you to drop particularly nasty shots like those from railguns onto the FW and thus avoid a potential instant death situation on your expensive HQ, but more, when you team up the TWL's together, or attach them to units of Thunderwolves or Fenrisian Wolves, you suddenly have a much larger force to have to be killed before you take wounds on the lord. One thing though, a Lord on TWM with Runic Armour and invulnerable save in a unit with a 3+ save, any AP 3 shots, take on the Lord, the lord has multiple wounds, so wounds abuse well and keep as many alive as possible on the way in.
Thunderwolf Cavalry. The standard maximum unit of 5 TWC with Bolter+Power Fist, Bolter+CCW, Bolter+CCW+Melta-bombs, Bolt Pistol+CCW, Bolt Pistol+CCW+Melta-Bombs = 285 points, maximises wounds allocation and keeps the unit alive solidly. Until you face off against a 15 ML Long Fang Space Wolf Army which turns around and levels a unit in combined fire each turn. Two turns to close before the third turn charge means that's 2 units gone before you get in close...so Storm Shields are needed, which are costly at 30pts a model. Dropping one on the Powerfist model is a good bet as he'll stay alive longer in combat as well, but a second SS in the unit also keeps the unit alive that much longer. Especially when a Lord also joins the unit (or several if you are feeling particularly crazy). An alternative approach which I've seen done quite well is to run two thunderwolves in a unit, both have Stormshields, one has a powerfist the other has melta-bombs (2 TWC: 1 PF+SS, 1 Bolter+SS+MB's = 190pts). This allows you a mini lord in effect, you need to lose 3 wounds before one of your TWC dies, but you have a 3+/3++ against everything inbound. They act as a tag team hunter killer unit, but also act as great bodyguards for an attached lord. So that's what we'll run yours as.
Now, Running 4 Thunderwolf mounted Lords is awesome, like REALLY AWESOME, but then that leaves you vulnerable to psychic powers, and you'll want anti-psker power in the force because of how integral they are to certain builds and armies, as well as adding flexibility to your own forces. So we need at least one Rune Priest in the army, and at 2,000pts I'd be inclined to run 2...but we'll stick to one so as there are 3 TWL's able to join off to each TWC unit (or all 3 into one unit with two flanking units of 2 nutters) to add some smackdown potential. The Rune Priest we want primarily defensive, Tempests Wrath and Living Lightning alongside a Chooser of the Slain for that very handy Ballistic Skill 5 for the Living Lightning (again bringing in another unit able to provide suppression as you walk into the face of the enemy). Tempests Wrath is the primary power, keep the chap back in your fire base as a means of defense against decent of angels forces and deep strikers/jump packers/skimmers et al.
Lords, 3 Lords on Thunderwolves will set us back a base of 435 points. That is a heck of alot. Definitely want a saga of the bear+TH+SS+RA with 2 FW's nutter, that guy is 280pts, he is expensive as, and as expensive as we'll go for TWL's else we won't be able to squeeze everything else we need into the list. We'll run a TWL with SS+RA+Frost weapon and also a TWL with SS+RA+WC both having 2 FW's at 240 and 235pts respectively...755pts...that's one heck of a TWL Party there...we might trim this later.
Lets see, at 2,000pts I want something like:
TWL, RA+TH+SS+SotB+2xFW's - 280pts
TWL, RA+SS+FW+2xFW's - 240pts
TWL, RA+SS+WC+2xFW's - 235pts
RP, CotS+LL+TW - 110pts
3 WG, combi-meltas, Drop Pod - 104pts
3 WG, combi-meltas, Drop Pod - 104pts
3 WG, combi-meltas, Drop Pod - 104pts
2 TWC, 1 PF+SS, 1 Bolter+SS+MB's - 190pts
2 TWC, 1 PF+SS, 1 Bolter+SS+MB's - 190pts
2 TWC, 1 PF+SS, 1 Bolter+SS+MB's - 190pts
5 Long Fangs, 4xMissile Launchers, Drop Pod - 150pts
5 Long Fangs, 4xMissile Launchers, Drop Pod - 150pts
5 Long Fangs, 4xMissile Launchers - 115pts
Which brings us to 2,162pts and we are waaaay over and don't even have troops yet...so we need to trim some stuff. We'll keep the 3 TWL's, but we'll drop down elsewhere in the list and shift points around:
RP, CotS+LL+TW - 110pts
3 WG, combi-meltas, Drop Pod - 104pts
3 WG, combi-meltas, Drop Pod - 104pts
5 Long Fangs, 4xMissile Launchers, Drop Pod - 150pts
5 Long Fangs, 4xMissile Launchers - 115pts
5 Long Fangs, 4xMissile Launchers - 115pts
This is our core fire support = 698 points and allows us to target 9 different pieces of armour or other targets for suppression, which isn't too bad really.
5 GH's, Flamer, Rhino - 110pts
5 GH's, Flamer, Rhino - 110pts
5 GH's, Flamer, Rhino - 110pts
5 GH's, Flamer, Rhino - 110pts
With a core of 4 scoring units we have 1138pts and 862pts to mess with. Not a heck of alot...so lets mess things up a bit and make our TWC units the anti-infantry units and our Lords the anti-heavy everything units, we actually save a few points here.
2xTWC, BP+SS, Bolter+CCW - 130pts
2xTWC, BP+SS, Bolter+CCW - 130pts
2xTWC, BP+SS, Bolter+CCW - 130pts
3xTWL's, PF+Belt of Russ...
Still need to trim points...so now we hit danger zone and we ditch the chooser of the slain, and we're gonna ditch a unit of GH's...3x5 Troops at 2,000pts is really pushing it, it's hard at 1,750pts as you reserve all your troops and usually have them come ina nd hide and grab home objectives, and you'll defeinitely be reserving them every game, just leave a rhino around for the RP to jump on board first turn so he has a mobile bunker to shoot from...
So we have a list that looks like this:
Thunderwolf+Support - 2,000pts:
TWL, Bolter+PF, Belt of Russ - 195pts
TWL, Bolt Pistol+PF, Belt of Russ - 195pts
TWL, Close Combat Weapon+PF, Belt of Russ - 195pts
RP, LL+TW - 100pts
3 WG, combi-meltas, Drop Pod - 104pts
3 WG, combi-meltas, Drop Pod - 104pts
5 GH's, Flamer, Rhino - 110pts
5 GH's, Flamer, Rhino - 110pts
5 GH's, Flamer, Rhino - 110pts
2xTWC, BP+SS, Bolter+CCW - 130pts
2xTWC, BP+SS, Bolter+CCW - 130pts
2xTWC, BP+SS, Bolter+CCW - 130pts
5 Long Fangs, 4xMissile Launchers, Drop Pod - 150pts
5 Long Fangs, 4xMissile Launchers - 115pts
5 Long Fangs, 4xMissile Launchers - 115pts
= 1,993 points total.
This gives you a basis to play around with. There is resilience there, and there is definite mobility and power and resilience, it's just a bit tricky. What this core force does is it ighlights how difficult it is to get a good solid working Thunderwolf Army that can also stand up against anything and also have a chance to win on the objective game reliably, or semi-reliably - Thunderwolf Cavalry lists either suffer from too many ideas needed to transfer in and points restricting that as we can kind of see above, or you max out in one direction but have almost no ability to win without tabling.
So how about we try something slightly different for you, as per your email, lets try a force which maxes TW's and looks epic on the field and goes balls for leather at the enemy and hopes it comes out on top at the other end:
FEEL THE THUNDER! 2,000pts Space Wolves:
Canis Wolfborn, 2xfenrisian Wolves - 205pts
TWL, RA+SS+TH+SotB+WTN+WTT+2xFenrisian Wolves - 295pts
TWL, RA+SS+FW+MB's+SotWB+WTN+WTT+2xFenrisian Wolves - 290pts
TWL, RA+SS+TH+Wk+WTN+WTT+2xFenrisian Wolves - 275pts
5 FW's - 40pts
5 FW's - 40pts
5 TWC: PF+Bolter, Bolter+CCW, Bolter+CCW+MB's, BP+CCW, BP+CCW+MB's - 285pts
5 TWC: PF+Bolter, Bolter+CCW, Bolter+CCW+MB's, BP+CCW, BP+CCW+MB's - 285pts
5 TWC: PF+Bolter, Bolter+CCW, Bolter+CCW+MB's, BP+CCW, BP+CCW+MB's - 285pts
Total = 2,000 points
There are other variations not so heavy on the equipment and saga's which can squeeze in 3 Iron Priests on TWM's at 95pts base each, but they aren't independent characters so can't join units...you can join a lord to them but otherwise they are solo and you can't do the multiple death star TWC rush...though SS's in the units of 5 TWC would be nice. Again, personal preferences take precedence and list/points juggling is always useful and needed.
The best advice I can give you for building the force however is to proxy the force in before going and buying it all. Use Vassal Online and play a few games with differing lists and see what works for you. Use what I've discussed above and meld in your own ideas to make something that suits your playing style and how you think as a person and player. I can't stress this enough. Alot of net lists are supposedly point and click, but many are not and many are tailored towards certain play styles which come more naturally to some then to others, so take it all on board and make a list which suits you.
All the best mate and let me know how it comes along,
Auretious Taak.
P.S. To the Pink Army and any visitors happening by, what are your thoughts on Nasir Al-Asad's email and my thoughts? The best thing we do here is discuss, so throw in your own thoughts and hopefully together we have a strong basis of knowledge for everyone to draw upon for these list styles.
