
Every time one ends up talking about which units are good and which ones are bad, there is always a minority who feels they need to proclaim the virtues of units that others see as terrible. Once in a long while they are right, but most of the time it's that strange somebody who must defend the honor of Swooping Hawks or Pariahs or what-have-you; units that are absolutely wretched, but somehow they still stand firmly behind.
Usually, the argument follow in sequence something like this:
"You just don't understand how to use them; they're very good at ______."
(Someone points out that another unit does the same job cheaper or more effectively.)
"Well, that's just one thing- they're very flexible and can handle any target I need."
(Someone points out that they have major limitations on use and are too expensive/fragile/etc to be good toolbox units.)
"Well, it depends on your army. I use them and they work for me."
This last argument is sheer nonsense. It's true- different armies do want different units, but that doesn't magically turn the world upside down so that bad units are good again. Winning a game with a unit does not make that unit good- if I get lucky, I can win a game with anything, and there will be times when all the stars align just so and conditions are perfect such that an otherwise-bad unit has the exact combination of qualities needed to be the holy savior of my entire army. But this doesn't happen often- that's why these units are considered bad.
If you're not looking to play competitively and don't care how well your units function (or are happy with how they function currently), that's fine. No one is here to force you to improve your army. But when you jump into a discussion and claim that something is a good/superior choice, you cannot then back out on the heels of "well, it's good enough." "Good enough" is a worthless phrase in competitive gaming. If there is a better option, you should be using that, not whatever "good enough" thing you have laying around.
Competitive play is about doing the best you can, not merely doing okay. If you're looking to improve, you have to be willing to ditch old habits and old setups that are merely passable in favor of others that are stronger; if you are constantly saying to yourself "Well, I win games with this army, so it must be good enough," you're not ever going to get any better. If you can't explain why or how your army works, chances are you don't fundamentally understand it yourself. If someone picks apart your list and tells you why it's bad and what can be done to improve it, saying "Well, it works for me" is the opposite of defending it- you are as much as admitting that you can't think of any kind of meaningful rebuttal to their arguments right then and there.
Good argument is founded on discussion. Discussion comes from sharing your ideas and thoughts with other people, and considering theirs in turn. If you are unwilling or unable to extend your half of the discussion- that is, to lay down your points and defend your side of the argument logically and intelligibly, you are not arguing well. Any time you default back to "Well, my experiences are different from yours so there's no way you can understand my position," you are arguing poorly. Don't sell your opponent short- and don't use your own inability to articulate your position as a cop-out.
tehixe · 741 weeks ago
fester40k 73p · 741 weeks ago
Pleasantly suprised Puppy :)
I actually am in the process of this with my Orks, but taking units that are widely regarded as fail and seeing what I can to do to make them have synergy with my list and fill holes in my list. (looted wagons in this example)
Warboss Stalin · 741 weeks ago
fester40k 73p · 741 weeks ago
Actually, they do, but they also fill a void in my list that needs filling - large-volume FNP negating AP3 fire.
Sounds stupid? The list I'm working towards has a weakness towards actually dealing with strong CC units with either High Init/FC or FNP. BA jumpers for instance I cannot stop.
a S8 AP3 blast, well, 3 S8 AP3 blasts helps immensely :)
Marshal_Wilhelm 61p · 740 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 741 weeks ago
I cannot think of an example in which Swooping Hawks actually fall into this here...
Good read Puppy. Again.
Behemothh 48p · 741 weeks ago
Katie_Drake 49p · 741 weeks ago
Von · 741 weeks ago
I feel that the whole thing is a gamery spin on "yes, but I have a right to my opinion", a phrase which shuts down any halfway interesting conversation (since that right isn't coupled with the responsibility to make it an informed one). It's basically code for "you're threatening my worldview with your pernicious 'logic' and I can't cope with that", and it makes me sad; the entitlement to free speech is supposed to protect one from oppression from authority*, not from one's own misconceptions.
* - although, as I write this, I'm reminded that 'authority' can mean 'person with expertise in a given field', so perhaps there is some applicability there after all.
Kirby 118p · 741 weeks ago
I then re-read what you said and +1'd you again.
*waves*
Comrade · 741 weeks ago
fester40k 73p · 741 weeks ago
Von · 740 weeks ago
Gx1080 · 741 weeks ago
"I'm not going to buy more models and/or going to convert a unit"
There. easy.
J4br4 41p · 741 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 741 weeks ago
Comrade · 741 weeks ago
Comrade · 741 weeks ago
Words like 'Finesse' and 'Specialized' come to mind. You know, those words you hear some guy use when he's talking about a list that make you cringe-
"But you see, my skyclaws are a finesse unit, you just don't understand how to use them. Thats all"
But the phrase that takes the cake. The one that stands atop all others, held aloft by the gaggling horde like it defines an entire lifestyle-
"Its a fluffy choice."
You see it all the time on forums and such. Someone posts an army list up, and announces somewhere in it that "its a fluffy list" which, by itself, nullifies the point of posting it in the first list as the settings interpretation is often left up to the beholder. Better yet when the turn 'Fluffy Competitive' is thrown up, like such a thing could exist.
And sure, there are times when the term 'fluffy' can be used without inciting a cringe so loud you'd hear it from the next room, but those times are few and far between. What it all adds up to at the end of the day is excuses.
Straight up excuses.
When someone asks me "Why dont you use three, five man long fang squads", I say "You gonna pull five missile launchers out of an orifice and give them to me?"
There's no shame in admitting you can't afford a model (or is there), or as the case is most times, you simply can't be arsed modeling and painting a model up (And lord knows that can take a while), however there is shame in hiding behind terms and statements.
Be honest with yourself, is what I'm trying to say.
Ian · 741 weeks ago
Von · 740 weeks ago
... I don't know what came over me there. The Stupid Virus must be doing the rounds again.
Von · 740 weeks ago
You're not wrong, mind - I'm just saying that shame lurks in the communities that make and judge an action, rather than in the action itself.