Some of you may have heard of this. Some not. You've all hopefully heard of Swedish comp and the series of articles we've done looking at them. PAAS is very similar in attempting to make sweeping changes to 40k for 'balance' and IIRC is Dutch Danish. Davis has kindly written an article on it to give us a better idea of what this comp system does.
The Points Adjusted Army System is a prime example of the flaws of comp. Now, the reasons comp in general is bad have been done to death both here and elsewhere, so I won't be getting into that here-- to summarize, comp tournaments don't actually level the playing field, they just make it so that different selections become the new "power choices." This system is the epitome of this-- I'll be going through their post isolating a few particularly significant error.
First off, the PAAS people don't really know what they're doing when it comes to balance. As a result, there are some changes that are just boneheaded. Inquisitors with Mystics cost more-- 100 points more-- in Marine armies? Well, okay, if you really think that's broken (even though that's a 3rd-ed era complaint)-- but Marine armies, with their prized Elite (Dreadnought/Terminator/Sternguard) slots, are going to be fielding Inquisitor Lords anyway, assuming they want to take Mystics in the first place. This is also the only valid way for Marine armies to take Assassins, which you also seem to be against, since Callidus Assassins cost 200 points now (more 3rd ed stuff here), so this error is just plain dumb-- it punishes an "abuse" that was never good to begin with, and does so incorrectly to boot! If you had nerfed Inquisitor Lords instead of Inquisitors, it might offer a more balanced choice, but that's not what you did, and even in that scenario you would accomplish little since nobody actually takes Inquisitor Lords these days. Note that this change doesn't apply to Imperial Guard, which makes it even sillier, since the complaints about Mystics in IG are much stronger than they ever were for Marines.
PAAS also commits the cardinal sin of attempting to reward some builds while harming others. While this might appeal intuitively to one's sense of balance and fair play, the problem is that doing so basically means that you're enforcing your tastes and preferences on others. Under this system, if you want to have a drop Dreadnought army, that's all well and good-- in fact, the PAAS authors will give you a nice 15 point discount on all your Drop Pods in order to promote this style of list, But if you want to run a mechanized Marine army, prepare to cough up extra points for every transport, since the authors don't like mech. If you want to have Pedro, screw you-- he now costs 210, and costs even more if you attempt to take Terminators for some synergy. This is a particularly troubling element of the PAAS that is present across several lists-- synergistic choices are actually penalized! Bladestorm, for example, now costs an obscene 75 points when fielded in an army that includes Doom! Kustom Force Fields cost 200 points (!!!) if taken in an army that has more than 3 Kans, more than 4 Trukks, or more than 2 Wagons! This is terrible design-- good design rewards synergy, but this system intentionally punishes it. Is there any real reason for these sorts of sweeping changes besides simply rewarding the choices and list styles that the authors want to see on the field? Not that I can discern-- there certainly isn't anyone arguing that Pedro Kantor or Dire Avengers with Bladestorm are broken, at least not these days.
The tragic element of PAAS, as well as the part that might inspire some people to give it a second chance, is that not all of their changes are stupid. Many of them make sense-- if GW declared in an FAQ that there was a typo in Codex: Space Marines and plasma pistols were supposed to cost 5 points instead of 15 all along, for example, I think most if not all players would find this a welcome and appropriate change. But while some of these changes are indeed all well and good, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to compose a document that *only* has good changes, and such efforts will always be controversial. This problem is only compounded when the authors try to enforce their own vision of what the game should be on the players, especially since they don't seem to understand what is and isn't competitive.
And there's the rub, really. The authors of this document don't understand the state of the meta, and therefore they make changes that are behind the times and often either nerf things that either aren't good now or were never good to begin with or else buff things that are already good (oh hi, 20 point Telion). Their approach may seem appealing-- who wouldn't want a game system where all the problematic costs were fixed-- but, thanks to human error, it practically always ends up with silly results instead
.
Taking a quick look at the PAAS and Davis' article and we can see once again attempts at sweeping changes have been made to 'balance' 40k which I simply don't get. If you are that unhappy with a gaming system where you need to spend hours fixing it, well...why? Particularly in light of what the new 5th edition books have brought to 40k (consistency between books in terms of power) sweeping comp systems like this baffle me (mind you all comp does; let's dumb down competition!). Anyone have experience using this system? We'd love to hear your thoughts and thanks again Davis!
chumbalaya 79p · 740 weeks ago
Loganwing actually comes out pretty well though :D
ManusCelerDei 53p · 740 weeks ago
Sanguinary Guard get Death Masks for free. Basic unit costs 150 pts unless Dante is included in the army.
Predators (not Baal Predators): The first Predator costs normal points, if 2 are included they both cost 20 points more, if 3 are included they all cost 30 points more per model
Fateweaver costs 450 points, unless taken in army that only includes Tzeentch models.
If a model on a Thunderwolf Mount has either a Storm Shield or a Belt of Russ, the model costs 75 points more.
HAHAHAHA that and the long fang thing are the only nerf to loganwing, and they can be worked around. hooray for loganwing with nothing but wolf guard and a billion cyclone launchers.
Talk about scrub city, I would love to break this comp system and play at the event.
ManusCelerDei 53p · 740 weeks ago
# Hive Guard: If 1-3 are included in the army they cost normal points, if 4-6 are included they all cost 15 points more per model, if 7-9 are included they all cost 25 points more per model
And what the fuck is this garbage. You are going to nerf the only reliable combat/troop units in the nid army (trygons and tervigons) and the only reliable anti tank (hive guard) because of uh what again?
neverXmoor 43p · 740 weeks ago
Big_Jim_GiF 15p · 740 weeks ago
neverXmoor 43p · 740 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 740 weeks ago
sirbiscuit 81p · 740 weeks ago
tzeentchling 76p · 740 weeks ago
Big_Jim_GiF 15p · 740 weeks ago
sircarp 27p · 740 weeks ago
Gx1080 · 740 weeks ago
Fuck you man, just fuck you.
Meister_Kai · 740 weeks ago
"state of the meta"
"meta"
I thought this was 3++ not BOLS.
But I digress.
Yeah, that comp format is pretty terrible. I would love to see someone seriously defend it.
Kirby 118p · 740 weeks ago
1) meta meaning ruleset; this is fine and correct
2) meta meaning local areas; this is more opinionated and against what I think 40k is
I think Davis is meaning number 1; as in the writers of the document don't understand how 40k operates under 5th. I could be wrong though :p .
King_Sled 15p · 740 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 740 weeks ago
"# The Sanguinor costs 300 points, 400 points if included in an army with Mephiston
# Mephiston costs 350 points, 400 points if included in an army with The Sanguinor"
No character is ever worth 400 points. I don't care if he even agrees to cuddle afterwards, there's just no way.
EDIT: Oh god the Imperial Guard listing is hilarious. Scout Sentinels and Stormtroopers are massively cheaper? 120pt AV14 tanks? Fuck you, I'll take two Chimeras and six Russes and rape your shitty system! Who needs Autocannons or Vendettas when you have bullshit like this going around?
abusepuppy 121p · 740 weeks ago
(2000pts)
Hive Tyrant (Wings, HVC, HC) (270)
3 Lictors (120)
3 Lictors (120)
3 Lictors (120)
3 Pyrovores (Spore) (60)
3 Venomthropes (Spore) (100)
3 Warriors (DS, 1 VC, Spore) (134)
3 Warriors (DS, 1 VC, Spore) (134)
20 Termagants (Devourer, Spore) (225)
20 Termagants (Devourer, Spore) (225)
15 Termagants (Devourer, Spore) (225)
1 Harpy (HVC) (110)
1 Trygon (200)
Alternately, something like
(2000)
1 Hive Tyrant (2 TL Devs, OA, HC) (250)
2 Tyrant Guard (100)
3 Lictors (120)
3 Venomthropes (75)
5 Ymgarl Genestealers (115)
5 Ymgarl Genestealers (115)
5 Ymgarl Genestealers (115)
27 Termagants (Spike Rifles) (108)
27 Termagants (Spike Rifles) (108)
3 Tyranid Warriors (DS, 1 VC) (109)
2 Carnifex (2 TL Devs) (300)
2 Carnifex (2 TL Devs) (300)
2 Carnifex (2 TL Devs) (300)
Good lord.
Kirby 118p · 740 weeks ago
Oscarius · 740 weeks ago
Lesse, blasters and lances are restricted, how about this 2 minute army in 2k?
Duke
Hemo
3 Trueborn, 3 Blasters, Venom
3 Trueborn, 2 Cannons, Raider
7 True Born, 2 Cannons, Raider
5 Warriors, Blaster, Venom
5 Warriors, Blaster, Venom
5 Warriors, Shredder, Venom
5 Wracks, Liq Gun, Venom
7 Wyches, Haywires, Agonizer Leader, Raider
10 Warriors, Cannon, Blaster, Raider
Ravager
Jetfighter
Jetfighter
Penalty for 7 Blasters
All vehicles have flickers, venoms have xTra Cannon
11 Lances and 7 Blasters(Taking care of that restricted mech)
15 Cannons, some blasts, and basic weaponry for infantry killing.
12 Vehicles.
Decent enough? :D
abusepuppy 121p · 740 weeks ago
Concentrate Blasters in the Trueborn squads, rather than spread across the army.
Taking the Bomber lets you squeeze four or six more "Dark Lances" in with no penalty. Maybe worth it?
The Duck's squad should be nine-strong to take full advantage of his ability. (The Trueborn, I am assuming.)
Overall looks pretty good, though.
Oscarius · 740 weeks ago
Personally, I like the Jetfighters better than the Bombers. While av11 is nice, aswell as +1s to the lances...I like the missiles.
Hum di dum, so swap around some stuff, and some thing like this.
Duke
Hemo
3 Trueborn, 3 Blasters, Venom
3 Trueborn, 3 Blasters, Raider
9 True Born, 2 Cannons, Raider
5 Warriors, Blast Pistol, Venom
5 Warriors, Blast Pistol, Venom
5 Warriors, Blast Pistol, Venom
5 Wracks, Liq Gun, Venom
7 Wyches, Haywires, Agonizer Leader, Raider
5 Warriors, Blast Pistol, Raider
Ravager
Jetfighter
Jetfighter
Penalty for 6 Blasters
Still the same number of lances, a little less cannons though. ^^
abusepuppy 121p · 740 weeks ago
Maybe swap Trueborn and Warrior small squad Raiders for Venoms? That would cover your anti-infantry a little better and you have a crapton of Lances.
But yeah, that's a brutal list.
Oscarius · 740 weeks ago
Humddum, actually, one of the Raiders is a Venom (the trueborn one), I paid for a venom and wrote a raider.
Swap the other mini one...hmm I dunno really, 10 lances seems like the minumum, even with 6 blasters and 5 pistols. Of course, mech might not be the king it is in normal games, so it's a valid point. And for those 5p I COULD buy a venom blade. :P
Karnstein · 740 weeks ago
The link goes to a board with a .dk ending. And that isn't the nethelands (that's .nl), it's Denmarks top level domain country code. Also all those guys in that board write danish, they are not talking dutch. Come on guys, if you rant about other how other people run their tournaments, regardless of how well they do it (imho they don't) at least get your math (or rather your geopgraphics) right. ^^
abusepuppy 121p · 740 weeks ago
Nitpicking our lack of knowledge of what country something is from is in no meaningful way a defense of their poorly-designed comp system.
Where, exactly, are "they coming from"? "I hate tanks and all of the rumors of armies I heard might be good on the internet"? Or perhaps somewhere closer to "I think GW is a big dum-dum head and I'm gonna change all the rules of army building because clearly I know better"?
Karnstein · 740 weeks ago
Regarding the meaning of "they coming from": Apparently they are from Denmark... that's was my whole point. I don't nitpick on you ranting about a comp system that can be gamed by your average Joe at the local GW store. And I don't expect "you" to keep Danish apart from Dutch or Swedish. I couldn't tell the difference between Russian and Polish or keep the Chinese or Korean language apart myself.
But typing ".dk" into your google search engine takes what? 5 seconds? At least to me -esp. if you cater toward such a large readers base like 3++ does- common courtesy would be to get your fact right before you go on and tell your reader base that dutch tournaments suck, because they use a stupid comp system.
So I'm not blaming you for your anti-comp crusade and I wouldn't visit a tournament running such a system even if they paid for my traveling expenses and hotel room. I'm blaming "you" (=3++ editor staff) for putting up wrong stuff, even if you doubt your assumptions yourself. At least for me "IIRC" is a nice way to say "I think I'm right, but I am not 100% sure".
Kirby 118p · 740 weeks ago
maddoc · 740 weeks ago
I almost had a heart attack seeing the changes and having to play with them.
BTW do you add up the penalties for mephiston concerning his psy powers?
Also:
Deamonhunters and Witchhunters can use all Troop choices, Fast Attack choices and Heavy Support choices detailed in Codex Space Marines and Codex Imperial Guard (They use PAAS values for everything).
Not that immolator spam is not even mentioned NO, they get access to all SM/IG troops,fa and HS.
What are these guy's smoking? Can i have something please.
Kirby 118p · 740 weeks ago
Warboss Stalin · 740 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 740 weeks ago
Mech is strong, it's true, but it's not the only option.
Kirby 118p · 740 weeks ago
In terms of 'good' competitive lists I think they are pretty evenly split between pure mech, hybrid and foot. I'd say Hybrid is the most popular and foot the least but I wouldn't say every battle (or even most) has 16+ vehicles per side. And even if it does, it's so much better than static foot lines on both sides from 4th.
VT2 79p · 740 weeks ago
Of course, whenever they do, orks complain that they're too imba, and fail to understand that it's their boyz that's the problem.
@FreakyGiraffe · 740 weeks ago
So lets begin with races that concern me.
Fireknives - The ONLY useful battlesuit loadout goes up in cost astronomically when you spam them - like EVERY successful Tau player should. Dick off
Broadside Spam makes them really unviable in cost - an increase of 15pts per model in my list would mean that I'd have barely any points left over for the vital components.... Dick off.
... Eldrad at 300pts. Dick off.
... Bladestorm should not cost 75pts per unit if taken with Doom - I'm sorry, crippling a cornerstone of the Eldar psychic arsenal is not on mate. Especially when that's a stupid increase from the 15 it costs originally. Dick off.
... Fire Dragons at +20pts per model if taken in units smaller than 7 models. Dick off.
... Extra 30pts per skimmer hull if taking more than 5. Dick off
All that said, the cost of some things I like - ie, Autarchs with the 30pts of free equipment and free Exarchs is a nice touch.
Still, I hate it. Roar.
Widthofacircle
abusepuppy 121p · 740 weeks ago
In the name of giving older books and chance and opening up options, comp kills older books and forces everyone to monobuild. How suprising.
VT2 79p · 740 weeks ago
Patrick · 740 weeks ago
I am the author of the PAAS system and its funny to see how our local League system has caught the interest of people so far away from us :)
I think the tone here is a bit too harsh, and way too impolite in many cases, but thats what you get on the internet so no surprise there. Ill start with a brief explanation of comp and PAAS to put things in context:
Army Composition: Why do we Europeans use it so much? Well in many cases it might be to achieve balance in the game, so that people dont always come with the same armies and the same synergies and the game ends up being a bit rock/scissor paper with the build mattering more than the playing skills of the player when determining if you have a chance or not to win against certain opponents. I have played in many tournaments without comp and I find them good fun as well, and in some cases like the ETC (European Team Championship) you actually manage to see a lot of varied armies and because of the pairing system you still get interesting games where you might not be screwed from the start because of a bad match up. So I am open to both styles of play, with or without comp, but I admit to preffering comp, not for the balance it might create, but for the variation in army lists it often produces.
About PAAS: Most comp systems in Denmark concentrate on punishing the best synergies and the spamming of certain units. My idea with PAAS was to promote variation more than punish synergies, because I like seeing people able to use all the models available in the game and not just a selection of them based on cost efficiency. So the main purpose of PAAS is to promote variation in army building - NOT BALANCE - :) I think it is utopic to expect any comp system to balance the game more, because, as you have already mentioned, comp just promotes new synergies to be exploited. So for me to see players in our league/tournaments field units or models they would otherwise never field is great because it allows for the full range of models to be used and it gives the players a gigantic range of opportunities when building armies and painting models. You must always remember that even though certain units get more expensive in PAAS you can still field them, they are not dissallowed or forbidden, but you will play with a points handicap if you only take the traditionally strong units. If you, however, mix a bit and take some of the units you normally never use you might even get a lot more out of your points than you usually would since now, most units are cost efficient! Like I said from the start with PAAS the idea is to make all units interesting, not to make armies more balanced (but I do believe that the more you vary your army build, the more balanced the game acutally becomes as you always have to adapt to new units in your opponents list making you think harder when you play :) ).
Conclusion: Our metagame is much the same as yours, but we do not encourage list building the same way as you might and in this particular system (PAAS) the idea is to get people to use more models than they normally do so that you also challenge yourself in the game by having to learn to use other units than those people usually use. This in turn will promote a lot of new builds making it harder for people to predict what your opponents will be taking to field and thus promoting more all round balanced lists to counter most situations your army might end up facing.
Well, thanks for reading and good luck with your games!
Kind regards, Paddy
abusepuppy 121p · 740 weeks ago
The "overpowered" models that most of the internet and player groups regard as unbeatable or unbalanced are, in most cases, mediocre or even poor. I realize you probably will not believe me when I say this, but Nob Bikerz, Lash of Submission, Eldrad, Mephiston, Chimera Vet spam, etc, etc, are not actually particularly good and can easily be crushed by a skilled player because they are fundamentally unbalanced armies and all have major weaknesses to be exploited.
The only list building style that we at 3++ advocate is good list building- whether for competition, for hobby, or what have you. We do focus mainly on competitive play, but that puts this blog largely in the minority, and we are hardly averse to requests to particular types of lists. The obvious way is not always the best or only way when it comes to list building, and you don't need comp for that to be true- I can use almost every unit in every 5E codex (bar a few exceptionally terrible exceptions) without changes and do so effectively.
4E books are another matter, but your system does them no favors- Tau, under PAAS, are utterly unplayable, as they have NO good options at all.
Good competitive play by good players will open up lots of build options- speaking only of major variants, I would say there are at least a two dozen "different" armies from the 5E books alone, and maybe a dozen more out of the older codices. (That's not even counting armies which are merely playable, but not amazing- stuff that is still better than Lash, etc.)
Your changes do not promote balance, they change the way the balance is tilted. You will trade one overpowered build for another, constantly trying to catch them all like the proverbial game of whack-a-mole. I would recommend with all possible strength that you do not run your tournaments under these rules, as you will simply end up with a lot of people unhappy about the result, both you and they.
Kirby 118p · 740 weeks ago
40k isn't rock/paper/scissors with balanced lists, i.e. generally 5th edition books. If you want to take a rock list, go for it. You have inherent weaknesses and you will hit that at some point and lose. ETC isn't a non-comp tournament. It's a joke that works around team matchups.
Fair enough if you aren't promoting balance but still, is such an extensive document necessary. +10 battle points for anyone using Vespids. This is of course beyond all the issues in relating to changing 40k, etc. I really don't think people need more variation or range because as has been pointed out, the new books have a huge amount of range. Sure older books are screwed in this but GW has done a bang-up job of improving them.
Completely disagree with this though:
"but I do believe that the more you vary your army build, the more balanced the game acutally becomes as you always have to adapt to new units in your opponents list making you think harder when you play :) ). "
No. The goal posts just move. Variance =/ = balance. If unit A is the best by a fair margin and can do everything, no mixing of Units B, C and D will become more balanced than unit A. This is why you don't see units like Legion of the Damned, Rippers, Penal Legion, Scout Bikers, Vindicators, etc. They have obvious flaws and even if you cover them with other units, those flaws can be exploited. This isn't balance.
Conclusion: Your meta is the same. I use the 5th ed rulebook. So do you. Then you add in a bunch of new stuff. Just like Aussies try to. Just like the Swedish try to. Just like pretty much everyone around the world tries to with comp. That isn't 40k. I don't predict what people will bring, that's tailoring because 40k can build balanced lists (so not metagaming). Lists built with balance in mind and being able to take on a bunch of tanks, a bunch of infantry, 5+ save armies, 3+ save armies, combat armies and shooty armies (and everything in between) are able to go to any 'meta' and win because they take everything into account. And with this in mind there are a lot of lists out there which can be made to give a lot of variety. I again reference 5th edition books. Sure some units aren't used but that's life. I'd rather a balanced game with lots of variety than an unbalanced with more variety.
Bro_Lo 82p · 740 weeks ago
Keith · 740 weeks ago
Master of the Forge - conversion beamer.....................120
Librarian - TDA, null zone, vortex of doom..................100
Dred - multimelta, heavy flamer, droppod with deathwind.....135
Dred - multimelta, heavy flamer, droppod with deathwind.....135
Dred - multimelta, heavy flamer, droppod with deathwind.....135
Techmarine - combimelta......................................30
Techmarine - combimelta......................................30
10 Scouts - snipers, missile, Telion........................150
10 Scouts - snipers, missile................................130
10 Tactical - multimelta, melta, droppod with deathwind.....175
10 Tactical - multimelta, melta, droppod with deathwind.....175
5 Tacticals - droppod with deathwind........................100
Attack Bike - multimelta.....................................50
Attack Bike - multimelta.....................................50
Attack Bike - multimelta.....................................50
Dred - autocannon x2, droppod with deathwind................145
Dred - autocannon x2, droppod with deathwind................145
Dred - autocannon x2, droppod with deathwind................145
total: 2000
Thud_ 39p · 740 weeks ago
2x Autarch w/ fusion gun 160
3x5 Fire Dragons (one has exarch w/ DBF, crack shot) 257
3x WS w/ 2 shuriken cannons, spirit stones 360
3x5 Dire Avengers 180
1x WS w/ 2 shuriken cannons, spirit stones 120
2x 2 Vypers w/ scatter laser, shuriken cannon 280
2x Falcon w/ shuriken cannon, holo-fields, spirit stones 330
1747 points
Now, under comp:
2x Autarch w/ fusion gun 160
3x5 Fire Dragons (one has exarch w/ DBF, crack shot) 305
3x WS w/ 2 shuriken cannons, spirit stones 420*
3x5 Dire Avengers 180
1x WS w/ 2 shuriken cannons, spirit stones 140*
2x 2 Vypers w/ scatter laser, shuriken cannon 160
2x Falcon w/ shuriken cannon, holo-fields, spirit stones 390
1755
Drop the Crack Shot on the Fire Dragon Exarch and I have pretty much the identical army to the one I had. What was the point of this again?
*I am assuming I don't get penalized for my Wave Serpents twice. But you never know...
Badger · 740 weeks ago
Kaltenberg · 740 weeks ago
Paddy · 740 weeks ago
@oldgrue · 740 weeks ago
Yes, I'd love to see the thought process that lead to this.
Ian · 740 weeks ago
All you are doing here is making bad units good and good units bad, with the result of.... new power builds and new units that you will see all the time to the exclusion of other units. You aren't solving any 'problems', you're just changing what the 'problems' are.
Paddy · 740 weeks ago
Paddy · 740 weeks ago
Like some of the other posters said in here, sometimes you have to try stuff out before you just blatantly dismiss it so that you can see the idea behind the system.
Well, ill retire for now, we have a league to start up. Good Game everybody! :)
Kind regards, Patrick
Badger · 740 weeks ago
I don't mind the most underpowered units being improved, but this document has clearly been poorly thought out. So, instead of spamming Hydras, I will use Exterminators instead? How does that make the game more interesting?
abusepuppy 121p · 740 weeks ago
neverXmoor 43p · 738 weeks ago
@oldgrue · 740 weeks ago
N.I.B. · 740 weeks ago
Kind of funny, the fits thrown in here.
Ian · 740 weeks ago
Also you're assuming there isn't diversity to begin with, which isn't particularly true.
abusepuppy 121p · 740 weeks ago
If you consider this "throwing a fit," I'd hate to see your opinion of the rest of the internet. 3++ is, for the most part, pretty calm.
Kirby 118p · 740 weeks ago