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Thursday, January 13, 2011

A New Breed: Tyranid Warriors



Of the many emails I tend to get and talk I tend to see about Tyranids, here and other places around the web, one of the most common questions/laments is about Tyranid Warriors and how they used to be good but now they aren't. (This sounds pretty familiar, yes? Carnifexes, Genestealers, Lictors, Hormagaunts, etc all get this same moaning.) They're too expensive, everyone says. Without Eternal Warrior they're no good, they say. I think you all know what my respone to that is:

Bullcrap!

Tyranid Warriors are actually quite cheap for what you get- buying a 4+ save, a decent gun, good WS/BS, and high A you would pay WAY more than 30pts under the old book, and that's ignoring the 50% boost in survivability you get from the extra wound. If you can mitigate their vulnerability to ID, Warriors are an excellent low-cost scoring unit or assault force and they provide cheap Synapse coverage to boot.
Let's look at the Warrior's advantages in a little more depth, then. For one, they are pretty good melee combatants right out of the box. WS5 A3 and Scything Talons means they can do a pretty good number of non-MEQ units, and even against Marines they can inflict a reasonable number of casualties by weight of attacks- but don't rely on this to carry you through, as they actually only do somewhat more damage than a vanilla Assault Marine and cost twice as much. You can upgrade to Rending Claws, which basically makes you a poor Genestealer- I would avoid this, as the gain just isn't useful enough to be worth the points. (You can, however, trade your gun for Claws without paying anything, which is sometimes nice.) More impressively, you can upgrade to a power weapon for a very reasonable price, and with good combat stats this is a very powerful option; having the Lash Whip is a bit pricier, but ensures you'll be alive to actually make those attacks- I would strongly recommend paying the extra 5pts. (The Instant Death generally isn't reliable enough to worry about too much. Think of it as a nice side benefit, not a major feature.) We can also get Furious Charge (okay, but often redundant with Whips) and Poison (super-awesome, lets us reroll wounds on Marines and kill MCs easily), which are worth considering for combat-heavy builds.

Second major feature is shooting. Although they may not be as great at it as they are with melee, Warrior shooting is non-ignorable; even the basic guy sprays out three Boltgun shots to 18". We can take a cheap upgrade to S5 if we want, or one member can take a "heavy" weapon (S6 blast or S4 large blast)- this is nice because it's our only unique squad member, so we can use it to shrug off two more wounds before losing anything. Taking a Venom Cannon is usually going to be your best choice, as Tyanids always need more ways to shut down tanks, but if your metagame is basically all foot armies (i.e. "not very strong"), you may find the Barbed Strangler to be helful. Even for a shooty Warrior squad, however, your plan is to weaken them with firepower and then use your superior assault stats to finish things off in melee, so you want to make good use of your ability to move and shoot.

Third on the list is resilience- and make no mistake, Warriors are quite resilient. With three wounds, T4, and 4+ save, it takes rather a lot of Boltgun shots (eighteen, basically an entire squad Rapid Firing) to bring down just one of them; weapons like Plasma are even more inefficient. That brings us to our second point: always, always have cover. Either be in terrain or have units screening you, because if you are not protected, you are going to get chewed to pieces by Autocannons, Heavy Bolters, and similar mid-strength weapons. This is the foremost mistake that will kill the effectiveness of Warriors. Wound saturation (which we'll talk about later) is also a major factor in making them work, but for now we'll just say that it pays to have MCs and similar critters in the list.

Those are all some very nice upsides, but they're only useful if we can make them work. One big question is "Do we need them?" In lists that already run lots of Synapse, that have cheap scoring units, that have extensive suppression fire, or that are interested in arriving at the enemy very quickly to assault them, you may not want Warriors.

Speed is one problem with Warriors; to take full advantage of them, you want to be using both their shooting and melee abilities, which means not Running most of the time; this, in turn, makes them a full one to two turns slower than things like Raveners, Shrikes, Genestealers, Hormagaunts, etc, at arriving in combat. All-melee Warriors are possible, but they will always need forward elements to draw fire and tie up enemy units so that they can arrive to do their bloody work. More often than not, though, Warriors (like Tervigons and other "midfield" units) are going to be well behind the front lines of a fight, doing their best to support other units.

Presence of other units that do their job is another issue- while Warriors in cover can be ridiculously tough, Termagants that Go to Ground every turn are even more so and cost significantly less; if all you are looking for is a cheap way to score objectives and you already have Synapse coverage, as is common with the Tyrant/Tervigon/Hive Guard/TFex list, Warriors don't bring much to the table that you don't have already, so your points are probably better spent elsewhere. Similarly, if you are running lots and lots of suppression fire from Harpies, Carnifexes, or even Hive Guard, you may not need the few additional shots that Warriors bring to the table.

But most importantly is their model vulnerability. Warriors perform very well against most weapons, but they are very prone to taking horrendous casualties from those S8 attacks that are often floating around these days. Missiles and Power Fists are both the bane of Tyranid players and Warriors are quite unhappy with both of them. Sending them to engage TH/SS Terminators, getting caught by Long Fangs, or jumping in with a Tactical Squad with a Power Fist (a poor unit upgrade, but a common mistake) can cause some really unpleasant things to happen. Warriors need to be careful what units they engage and how- make sure to screen them with Termagants (or multicharge to tie the sarge up) to insure no Power Fists come within striking distance of them. As noted above, ALWAYS have cover for them or they will go away very quickly- a few shoddy rolls can always result in a squad disappearing, something that Marine players are intimately familiar with but many Tyranid players are not.

Let's talk about saturation for a second. Saturation is the concept that having a lot of one thing is better than some of one and some of another, at least when you're talking about targets for the enemy's guns. If, for example, you have one Land Raider and your enemy has two meltaguns, he might not feel too bad about his chances of wrecking you. But if you have two? He's getting worried. And three? He knows he's doomed. Likewise, if you have four Rhinos, he might not be super-worried about only running two squads of Long Fangs, but if you have six, or eight, or ten, he is going to start to panic as he realizes he is never going to kill them all. Armies are forced to make choices in what kind of weapons they bring to the field- anti-tank, anti-horde, anti-elite, etc; most will run a mix of guns to handle different types of opponents. (This is, incidentally, the proper way to do things, make no mistake.) If you run a wide spread of different types of targets, you allow him to use each of his types of guns on the right target and basically give him 100% efficiency on his firepower. If, however, you load up on a single type of target (light tanks, heavy tanks, infantry, etc), he will have trouble using his "other" guns to bear effectively on you- Heavy Bolters are mostly worthless against Chimeras, for example. This is the theory behind "spamming" units- you want to invalidate his ability to destroy you by only bringing one type of target.

This is useful to us with Warriors because, even though they are nominally infantry targets, they are vulnerable to the same heavy weapons that are used to kill monstrous creatures and other big targets, so there is an inclination of opponents to shoot these guns at them. For one, this is a trap- the effectiveness of a Missile Launcher against a Warrior is actually rather low, since the Warrior gets a cover save against it, whereas a monstrous creature rarely will. But for two, we can also take advantage of this fact by putting MCs and T4 multiwound creatures into our list, thus saturating the enemy with targets he wants to shoot his big guns at. These two factors are going to be the fundamental of any list featuring Warriors: entice him to shoot the wrong guns at the wrong targets and give him lots and lots of targets to pick from.

So how can we build our Warriors most effectively? Here are some chassis that I've settled on as the most useful.

3 Warriors, 1 Venom Cannon, 2 Deathspitters (Mycetic Spore optional): This is a basic objective-claimer; it tags along with the main body of a force, shooting at enemy transports (or other things if there are not transports) and hopes to shake/stun something. Being minimalist, you can easily Go to Ground if the enemy shoots any big guns at them, as you aren't losing much- their purpose is to survive the fight and score an objective. They are dangerous enough in CC that most units aren't thrilled about charging them, especially not if there's anything nearby that can provide support the turn after. They are also cheap enough that you can easily squeeze several into a list without compromising other aspects of a list. When brought in a Spore- often equipped with a Venom Cannon itself- they become an excellent way to claim a distant objective or try for an enemy objective.

3-4 Warriors, Lash Whip, Bonesword, Toxin Sacs: These are our choppy guys; on the charge, they kill off two Marines apiece, so even a small number of them are quite terrifying; they also can massacre independent characters, monstrous creatures, and just about anything else that gets in contact with them. Replacing their guns with Rending Claws isn't uncommon, as it gives them a chance against vehicles and they generally spend their time running towards the enemy anyways. We keep the squad size small so that they are a less tempting target for Battle Cannons and other large blasts that can end the whole unit in a single volley. A Tyranid Prime is an excellent choice to accompany them, as he can eat up S8/9 shots and only take one wound from them, not to mention being a monster in CC himself. They can also be brought in a Spore, though this is less common, in which case you usually want to leave them with guns in order to do some damage to the opposition as they land.

4-5 Warriors, Venom Cannon: A pure Synapse squad. These guys advance in the middle of a horde, shooting away without a care in the world and strung out in a long line to provide maximum Synapse coverage- it's not hard to cover 40" of the board with them alone, letting you hold wide-flung squads in place quite easily. They also serve secondary functions at... almost everything, really; the squad has a good number of attacks on the charge, shoots decently, can capture an objective (especially if it happens to be in the center of the board, where they like to hang out) and basically just annoys the heck out of the enemy. And for all this, you aren't really paying many points; less than a Tactical squad, and with significantly more wounds.

Building The Army

So now we have a good idea what we want to do with our Warriors, let's take a look at some ways to include them in an army. How about as melee threats? Coming in as the second line behind faster critters, Warriors could be our "problem-solving squad," there to finish off anything that has held up to our initial assaults.

Tyranid 1750 list
1 Tyranid Prime (BS/LW, Tox)
1 Tyranid Prime (ditto)
3 Hive Guard
3 Hive Guard
2 Zoanthropes
10 Termagants
1 Tervigon (Cluster, Catalyst)
3 Tyranid Warriors (BS/LW, Tox)
3 Tyranid Warriors (BS/LW, Tox)
20 Gargoyles
3 Raveners
1 Trygon
1 Trygon
A good suite of tank-killing, several big monsters, cover-providing forward elements, and a number of "hammers" that can wipe out most anything on foot give us a pretty solid list. We could play around with our AT suite, taking some Harpies in our FA slots and freeing up EL (and points) for other units. A single Tervigon gives us the potential for scoring midfield points and adds more MCs to the list; if we wanted to play aggressively, we could turn it into another Trygon and really go to town on people, although it might be good to find room for another Termagant squad (or some Warriors...) in order to insure that you're not totally without the ability to hold objectives.

Alright, so that worked pretty well. Let's try something with those other Warrior builds, shall we?

Tyranid 1750 list
1 Tyranid Prime (LW/BS, Toxin, Regen)
2 Hive Guard
2 Hive Guard
3 Tyranid Warriors (DS, 1 VC)
3 Tyranid Warriors (DS, 1 VC)
3 Tyranid Warriors (DS, 1 VC)
3 Tyranid Warriors (DS, 1 VC)
10 Termagants (Devourer)
10 Termagants (Devourer)
1 Harpy (HVC)
1 Harpy (HVC)
1 Harpy (HVC)
1 Tyrannofex (Rupture, Cluster, Dessicator)
It looks like a regular Tyranid "T6 Wall" at first glance, but it plays completely differently; six scoring units can cluster all about the objectives and cling to them for dear life; anything they shoot ducks for cover, and the remaining units spit out fire to annoy the enemy and slow their advance. The Prime can soak wounds and provide a significant melee threat as needed; Devilgaunts give anything on foot a bad time, and our extensive suppression fire insures that many units end up hoofing it. The third Harpy could be switched for some extra Hive Guard or such, but Harpies give us suppression shooting combined with a fast-response melee threat if anything gets too close to us, with the Tyrannofex adding shooting and melee of its own. Without as many MC frames to hide behind your Harpies are a bit fragile, but keep them moving and shut down enemy armor and you should mostly be fine- shaving a few points for Regen would be a very nice idea. Most all of the guns in this list have good stand-off potential, so unlike a majority of Tyranid lists, you can actually engage the enemy at very long ranges; woe be to the Dark Eldar army that thinks they can run circles around you! If you find the suppression fire excessive, it is also possible to give all the Warriors Boneswords (or Sword/Whip) so that even charging in against them is a huge pain for most armies.

These are hardly the only way to build. Take, for example, this list sent in to me by a reader looking for advice:

Tyranid List, 2000pts
warrior prime, scything, lash whip, bonesword, toxic, regen 115 pts
warrior prime, scything, rending, toxic, regen 100 pts
3*3 hive guard 450 pts
2*3 warriors, scything, lash whip, bonesword, toxic 300 pts
3 warriors, deathspitters, venom cannon 120 pts
2*4 raveners, rending, 280 pts
3 trygons, adrenal glands 630 pts
(Apologies to the sender in question for not getting to this sooner, or for giving it its own post- it seemed to fit in well with the article and Kirb, the other authors, and I receive rather a lot of emails.)

This is actually a very good list, a few minor quibbles aside- the two Primes should both be Whip/Sword/etc, as the small number of points saved doesn't make up for the huge drop in close combat efficiency. That aside, however, the list does a pretty good job of covering all its bases, although it might be nice to have slotted in a screening unit of Gargoyles/Hormagaunts somewhere. But all things considered, it covers its bases quite well and is an excellent demonstration of how to build a good, aggressive Warrior list. (Note that it largely concedes itself to not have scoring units, but this is a voluntary concession.)

Along similar lines:

Tyranid 2000pt list
1x Tyranid Prime - 80
3x 3 Hive Guard - 450
3x 4 Warriors, 3 Deathspitter, 1 Venom Cannon - 450
3x 4 Raveners, Rending Claws, Scything Talons - 420
3x Trygon - 600
This one has a few small problems- the Warriors aren't as much of a threat, and its Prime isn't the same kind of danger that the other list's are. If I were running it, I would change it to 4x3 Warriors (which puts us down 15pts), pull one Ravener from each squad (which leaves us up 90pts), drop one Hive Guard (+140), and add a second Tyranid Prime, giving them both Boneswords and Regen. With our last 20pts, we can give two of our Trygons Adrenal Glands. The list isn't nearly as focused as the other one, but we have good transport-killing, bunches of suppression fire, and a multitude of fast, CC-capable units. As with the above list, the lack of screening units could be a problem- we might think about dropping some Raveners and a few points elsewhere in order to take a big squad of Gargoyles, which could fly in front of the other units and provide cover- with their huge wingspan and numbers, even Trygons can get a save out of them sometimes.

Tyranid Warriors are not a poor man's anything, nor are they weak, useless, or narrow- rather, they are excellent generalists in a codex that, unlike Orks and Marines, does not get many generalists. They fill a useful role in a number of armies and, as troops, can easily be fit into most forces without having to worry about crowding out other units.

Comments (56)

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That reminds me, haven't posted here my NIds for the lulz:

Tyranid Prime, Bonesword & Lash Whip, Rending Claws, Toxin Sacs = 105
Tyranid Prime, Bonesword & Lash Whip, Rending Claws, Toxin Sacs = 105

2 x Zoanthrope = 120
2 x Zoanthrope = 120
Deathleaper = 140

4 x Tyranid Warriors, 4 x Bonesword & Lash Whip, 4 x Rending Claws, Toxin Sacs = 200
4 x Tyranid Warriors, 4 x Bonesword & Lash Whip, 4 x Rending Claws, Toxin Sacs = 200
18 x Hormagaunts = 108
17 x Hormagaunts = 102

Harpy, Heavy Venom Cannon, Cluster Spines = 170
Harpy, Heavy Venom Cannon, Cluster Spines = 170
10 x Gargoyles = 60

Carnifex, TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms, Heavy Venom Cannon = 200
Carnifex, TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms, Heavy Venom Cannon = 200

2000
I would like to say that boneswords are improved Force Weapons that aren't counting as Force Weapons (lol hey kharne), that don't require a psychic test to use. Without lash whips, a 3d6 leadership test will on average kill anything not immune to instant death. against multi wound models and allocation, dual boneswords are horrific.

But this is an awesome article. As soon as 3++ told me about 5th edition tyranids I fell in love again, and telling me warriors were not only un-crap but very damn good? Made me send you an email in the first place.

Speaking of which, I'm 2 hive guard, a shrike (forgeworld wings on the way) and 2 bonesword venom cannon warriors away from the footsie bonesword list you made me, and I can't wait to try it out.
4 replies · active 742 weeks ago
The problem is, unlike a Force Weapon, you can't really count on them. A psychic test you can almost always pass, but rolling 3d6 against Ld will get passed about 50% of the time (more or less, depending), so you can't reliably count on the enemy failing it.

Tests for Boneswords are not made until after wounds are allocated and resolved, so they do not actually qualify for the "allocate ID wounds to unwounded models" rule.

Gratz on the list, though. Definitely try and get us some pictures of it once you have it all together.
Whilst you are correct, it certainly is fun when you face multiple wound models with low leadership. It's also a free bonus on top of the power weapons which cannot be taken for granted. 3-4 warriors is 3-4 tests, not even Leadership 10 will save you.

Still, the list you gave me, I feel, is going to be very good. I even believe it has a certain level of competitive in it (If I had lash whips, moreso). We shall see soon when i start using it.
I'm fairly sure you only take one test no matter how many wounds you suffer. I'm away from my codex, but isn't it worded "A model that suffers one or more wounds from Boneswords must make..."?

However, if you have a Prime and Warriors in the same combat, they would have to make multiple tests because the wounds occur at separate initiatives and the tests are always made immediately.
I believe it's 1 test per bonesword, or is it 1 test in general for all bonesword?

I'm still sure dual swords are good, simply for the ability to threaten MCs and multi-wound models. I understand lash whips are generally a better choice, I however do value dual swords. They are also cheaper, which is a bonus.
Love it. Zach up here in Seattle won Best General at TSHFT (unseating me!) with his warrior-focused 'Nid list. Definitely worth doing.

I came up with a list after being inspired by this article.

Nid Prime: 100
LW/BS, Deathspitter

Nid Prime: 100
LW/BS, Deathspitter

3 Lictors: 195

3 Lictors: 195

2 Venomthropes: 110

4 Tyranid Warriors: 235
LW/BS, Deathspitters, Toxin Sacs
Venom Cannon

4 Tyranid Warriors: 235
LW/BS, Deathspitters, Toxin Sacs
Venom Cannon

20 Hormagaunts: 200
Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs

20 Hormagaunts: 200
Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs

19 Termagants: 95

19 Termagants: 95

Mawloc: 170

Mawloc: 170
26 replies · active 742 weeks ago
I don't like the Mawlocs- they don't feel like enough of a threat to me, since they can largely be ignored by the opponent. (average less than two wounds per turn in CC just doesn't scare me.) Harpies would be more mobile and add firepower, or Trygons would be a real "threat" unit.

The Termagant squads seem okay, but you already have the two big Hormie squads to screen with. Have you considered giving them Devourers instead? I've had good results with them against anything that uses a foot component.

Personally, I would drop the Deathspitters from the Warriors, as I feel that pushes their cost over the edge, but I haven't run "hybrid" versions like that a lot. My intuition and limited experience says they don't work as well, but I could be wrong.

How do the venomthropes work out? It seems like it wouldn't be hard to maintain cover with all the infantry units, but they aren't something I've tested extensively, either.
as to the Mawlocs, that was the last thing I added. Harpies would probably be better...

Termies are to hold objectives. I like devo-gaunts. Would have to wrangle things to get the points.

Deathspitters are great as they do well against infantry and give you a slim chance at dealing with rhino-chassis. You're talking about 25 points more...that's not that much...

Venomthropes are awesome. Cover is just the beginning. I know you guys don't believe in them, but we run with lots of indirect fire weapons, and its nice to get a save against those. Additionaly, causing dangerous terrain tests against units assaulting things near the venomthropes is golden. Not the least of which is that they become I1 (trust me, check the BRB in the section about assaulting into cover) which gives your units a nice edge.
I would just run 10 Devilgaunts instead of 20 Termagants. Easy substitution; more firepower, less resiliencey.

25pts isn't a lot, no, but small costs eventually add up- that's the problem with Warriors. You could argue that Adrenal would let them glance tanks on 5s, etc, but at the end of the day any points you spend on one thing could've gone to something else more productive. Upgrading Mawlocs to Trygons, for example.

I don't actually have anything against the Venomthrope, I just haven't sunk the $60+ I'd need to make a squad of them. The 5+ cover is the main benefit for MCs, but the dangerous terrain/grenades are a huge boon for little critters. I want to try substituting them into my 1500/1750 lists for some of the Hive Guard (with a few other tweaks) and seeing how it works out. The trick about reducing enemies to I1 is nice, but a lot of things that want to assault you (i.e. Marines) have grenades these days. But against LC Terminators, or Daemons, or Orks, or other Tyranids, it's pretty sweet.
Some DE units don't have them either (like wracks).

I don't like Trygons. They've never been especially effective in my experience.

I like Mawlocs for late game objective contesting (they essentially tank shock), as well as being enough of a threat that they should be sucking up a few missiles from the lictors/warriors.
Trygons can contest as well/better than Mawlocs. Charging something and killing it is better than tying it up, and you should pretty much always be able to get within 3" of things, bar against a ridiculously large squad of something (which, with six attacks per turn, you can cut down pretty fast.)

Why don't you find Trygons effective? They're just as resilient as Mawlocs and hit way, way harder.
I'm talking about hitting the unit and pushing it off the objective. Trygons hit harder in melee, but can only shoot the turn they arrive, whereas Mawlocs can shift stuff around and do damage just by showing up. And they can go back down and come back up.
Contesting is basically the same thing as pushing them off the objective, especially if you're locked in CC. Their ability to jump from one side of the battlefield to the other is certainly useful, but it's a two-turn process and is just as unreliable as their usual arrivals are.

The problem with the Mawloc's damage output is that it just can't compare to the Trygon. Imagine an ideal scenario- twenty guys under the large blast template. You'd never get that many in a real game, but we'll pretend you did somehow. So you wound seventeen of them. Nine of them fail their cover saves. Yeah, it's stupid that they get cover saves when the cover is rising up around them and being eaten, but rules is rules. In an ideal situation, you charge them next turn, fight on the enemy's turn, and Hit and Run away to reburrow on your own turn. Two player turns of combat yield you three enemy casualties, for a total twelve kills over two turns.
The difference is that if they kill the Trygon in combat, then they are on the objective.
I've yet to see a troop unit that can kill a Trygon in a single turn of melee combat. I guess tricked-out Death Company? But they're not even scoring, so it's irrelevant.
Why are you limiting it to a single round of combat? And, even then, odds are that towards the end of the game, the Trygon will have taken wounds. Then its simply hidden fists or units with poison (like wracks) that are a threat.
The Trygon, meanwhile, charges immediately (sometimes he will miss out on this due to arriving by DS, but just as often he's on the board), so we get four player turns of combat. We probably need to Fleet to get in distance, so we'll assume no shooting. In that time, he kills fifteen enemy models. That's significantly more than the Mawloc even assuming a ridiculous twenty models under the blast marker. It's not perfectly accurate because sometimes the enemy will break combat and get away- but, on the other hand, sometimes you'll get free kills from Sweeping Advance or No Retreat instead.
ldavethegamer's avatar

ldavethegamer · 742 weeks ago

I have to agree, while the "gimmick" of mawlocs is fun....you are paying a lot of points for some very situational limited returns.
What about keeping a single Mawloc as a anti-parking lot type weapon? Is it worth the loss of the mawloc to potentially damage/ destroy a large number of vehicles? The vehicles that can't be moved out of the way are destroyed outright, so that's Marbo plus. At the very least, is forcing the opponent to deploy differently worth the cost? I don't see many Tyranid lists maxing out the HS slot, so the opportunity cost is low, even if 170 is a bit steep.

Teach us, bodhisattva. :)
It's just too unreliable. 2/3 of the time it will scatter off to the edge and hit one or none vehicles, and a single S6 shot vs. rear armor isn't that impressive. (Remember, they get cover saves and everything still.) If it actually worked and the Mawloc didn't scatter, you would be entirely right- but if the Mawloc didn't scatter, it would be a totally different unit.

The problem with the Mawloc is how _much_ you give up vs. a Trygon. You get half as many attacks. You lower your WS, so you hit on 4s, not 3s. You lose the reroll, so can't hit vehicles and lose even more accuracy vs. infantry. And you lose Fleet, so you can't catch units that move away from you.
Don't forget that with Lictors (if they're on the board), the Mawlocs won't scatter if they deploy within 6" of the lictors. And, since I can have them leave and come back automatically, its a controllable thing.
I've never found the Lictors to be in the right place- since the bubble is only 6", enemies can pretty much always just walk away from it and be fine. It's something I may have to test out, though, I haven't run Mawlocs with a full complement of Lictors/Deathleaper.
You can get an extra 4.5" with the base of the Mawloc, though, for a Mawloc who threatens up to 10.5" from your Lictor -- so infantry, at least, aren't getting far enough away without a good run roll.

I agree that Mawlocs tend to underwhelm in actual play, unfortunately. Still mad at myself that I assembled mine as a Mawloc rather than a Trygon before waiting for the FAQ (it was pretty effective before you could take cover saves).
You maximum reach is 10.5"; the enemy must start at least 1" away from the Lictor and can move 6". That means, at worst, they need a four on a run roll to get completely out of your area. If they roll a 3 or 2, they probably will only have a single model under the Mawloc, as its oblong base shape works both for and against it.

Bottom line is that the gimmick just isn't particularly impressive. For 230+ pts, you can do better than a S6AP2 blast every couple of turns.
But creating a threat zone is almost as good. Sure they can back away, but that gives me some nice board control. Combine with the advancing ground elements and the disruption caused by Lictors/Mawlocs and you can really mess with your opponent.
You're spending too much on your disruption elements for too little control over their movement. The Lictors can be charged in CC, tank shocked away, etc, with relative ease and the Mawloc simply doesn't do that much damage nor control their movement much- unless it's the last turn, pushing them off the objective isn't very useful. And if it is the last turn, they've seen you setting all this up two turns in advance as you moved Lictors towards their objective and reburrowed the Mawloc, so they probably know exactly what's going on.
Disrupting carefully designed parking lots is good.

Using the Mawloc to push things TOWARDS my other units is good.
You don't have any other units in that list that are enough of a threat that the Mawloc is gonna ruin things.

Disrupting a parking lot only helps against shooting, which you barely have any of. And you still will only do what you want about 1/3 of the time because the arrival point is extremely random.
Those are all very good points, AB. Thank you.

Is there no use for a TMC that can get locked in combat roughly when and where it wants? Is it ever useful to get stuck in a combat where neither side wins and it just drags on? Like with say Tau Broadsides, Rifleman dreads, or Long Fangs?

I don't own any Tyranids, but have been considering buying some, and I don't want to put together yet another "cool" model that is really useless no mater how you try to spin it...
If it could arrive more reliably, it totally would be, yeah. But without fleet, it ends up being very hard to get it to where you want it, especially near board edges or terrain. you're better off just using Lictors or Ymgarl to fill that role, as they do it much better.

Mawloc isn't the worst thing in the world. It can contest objectives and it IS still an MC, so it puts some pain on most things. If you want to run them, spam cheap MCs onto the board (Mawlocs, Harpies, naked Tervigons, 'Fexes) to overwhelm the opponent. Deathleaper can also support them in popping about and being annoying. Lictors could also help, as with Nathan's list, and other deep strike/infiltrate/etc units.
I'm not married to the Mawlocs; I think they work well for their points and I like the annoyance factor they bring to the table.
This is probably a stronger list..

Nid Prime: 100
LW/BS, Deathspitter

Nid Prime: 100
LW/BS, Deathspitter

3 Lictors: 195

3 Lictors: 195

2 Venomthropes: 110

4 Tyranid Warriors: 235
LW/BS, Deathspitters, Toxin Sacs
Venom Cannon

4 Tyranid Warriors: 235
LW/BS, Deathspitters, Toxin Sacs
Venom Cannon

Tervigon: 195
Catalyst, Poison, Adrenal Glands

Tervigon: 195
Catalyst, Poison, Adrenal Glands

20 Termagants: 100

20 Termagants: 100

Mawloc: 170

Mawloc: 170
Not bad, but I think you're going to have some real problems with enemy armor. Lictors are your only way of dealing with them, and they're doing double duty trying to guide the Mawlocs in also. It has a really strong scoring presence, though, which I like. Maybe it would be worth it to drop some Termagants to scrape up points for Regen on the Primes?
Never really liked regen. You like it?
It serves its purpose. It's good at lower point values, and on Primes it's nice because you can stick him in a squad and keep any further wounds from going on him. It's not an auto-take, though.
TheGraveMind's avatar

TheGraveMind · 742 weeks ago

Good article. I agree for the most part. my main difference is that I'm not a fan of the VC in this edition. being a blast I feel hurts it against vehicles too much. and half of the time I'm buying the heavy weapon for wound allocation. I combine your two setups for my main squad. I run 6 man squad of scything talons and deathspitters, plus a barbed strangler. They are infantry clean up patrol. While the anti-tank units are popping transports, and rushing units are tying things up, both of which are drawing fire, these warriors walk up the middle and start destroying infantry with mass fire. I actually wrote about how they can still be usefull not too long ago. http://theback40k.blogspot.com/2010/10/thinking-o...

I just started trying out Bonesword/toxin sacs warriors. So far they have done me well. I generally run them dual swords, scything talons and toxin sacs. I give them a prime with whip/sword, and that is generally the only whip that is needed. I run them up behind/near a trygon and really make them choose.
I like the two 1750 pts lists but how would you achieve the same sort of structure at 1500 Pts? Ideally maintaining Warriors with LW/BS in both
5 replies · active 741 weeks ago
Take the first 1750 list, drop a HG from each unit. Then half the gargoyles, drop the ravs and switch out the Trygons for Harpies with HVC. Doesn't work quite as well, but should do you fine.
Fist list: drop the Zoeys, Raveners, and a chunk of the Gargoyles (seven?). Alternately, you could dump one of the Primes.

Second list: drop a Tyrannofex. Alternately, one of the Harpies and... something else? A squad of Warriors? I'm not sure if I'd be as happy with either of those lists at 1500. Maybe something like this instead:
1500 Tyranid List
1 Prime (LW/BS, Tox, Reg)
1 Prime (ditto)
3 Hive Guard
3 Hive Guard
3 Warriors (LW/BS, Tox, 1 VC)
3 Warriors (LW/BS, Tox, 1 VC)
3 Warriors (DS, 1 VC)
3 Warriors (DS, 1 VC)
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
1 Carnifex (2 TL Devs)
1 Carnifex (2 TL Devs)

I'd have to check the numbers, but I think that's 1.5K or so right there. You could dump some Gants for Regen on the 'Fexes, if you wanted. You basically have a million mid-size chassis and some reasonably-costed MCs, all providing suppression/torrent fire on the enemy. Harpies could also work instead; better against tanks, but don't easily get cover from Warriors, I don't think. I avoided Shrikes and Raveners because they're aggressive units- you want to sit in midfield cover and try and get good charges/countercharges. Hold the enemy off, keep objectives under your control, delay for the end of the game. Anyone who rushes in on you finds that fourty or fifty attacks, half of them from Power Weapons, really sucks.
Many thanks for the options on reducing the lists to 1500 Pts.

What do you think of the below list. Its a list for random standard deployment and missions as per the 40K book. ie 2/3 are objective based games.

1 Tyrant, 2 X TL Devs, Hive Commander, Leech Essence, Paroxsym
2 Guard Lash Whips
3 Hive Guard
3 Hive Guard
1 Tervigon Catlyst, Clusters
16 Termagants
5 Warriors (LW/BS DS)
10 Genstealers (Tox)
10 Genstealer (Tox)

The thinking is warriors (via Hive commander) and genstealers outflank on +1 reserves hopefully turn 2 or 3.
Termagants provide mobile cover for Hive Guard and Tyrant/Guard Squad. Who if necessary provide cover for the Tervigon.
Hive Guard and Tyrant open up Vehicles
Tervigon holds objective/Camp with any spawn Gants.
Tyrant/ Guard and any gants alive help in CC with Warriors / Gens turn 3. Use Paroxsym on enemy units with characters.
Your big problem is going to be that outflanking is unreliable- without Swarmlord, you have a 1/3 chance of arriving somewhere you don't want to be, and that's bad. It would be very easy for a couple bad rolls to leave your army floundering around the board with no good plan.

You also have the issue of reserves/on-board split. A large percentage of your force (about a quarter or a third) doesn't start out in play- there's nothing wrong with that, but having the rest of it in play gives your opponent something to focus on. I would either cut down on the number of units in reserve a bit (two is probably fine at 1500) or go all-reserves; Hive Guard aren't as good at that (walking in 6" and shooting 24" often isn't enough to get anything), so I would recommend going to Zoanthropes or Harpies if you do that.
On the other hand, the list is actually quite a good start at going non-reserves and messing people up. Trade out one of the Warriors, the six extra Termagants, and two of the Genestealers from each squad- now you have enough points for a fair-sized unit of Ymgarl Genestealers. Now your list has two basic modes: normal, where you drop everything into play except the Ymgarl and one troop squad (Warriors, Tervigon, or Termagants, depending on the game) and full-reserves mode, which you mostly use when going second in Spearhead or Capture and Control (i.e. when you need to or are more capable of getting to the enemy's side of the board.)
Outflanking with a chunk of your force like that is dangerous- you end up with too small a portion on the board, so they wreck you, and then your reserve guys arrive and they tear them up because most of your main force has been gutted already. I don't think this list is actually that bad, but it still feels like you're reserving a bit too much, and with no way to reroll board edge (i.e. Swarmlord), you're going to come in on a useless side 1/3 of the time, which is really, really risky.

Instead, my plan would be more like this: outflank the Tervigon (or, depending, the Termagants) to claim a distant objective and push forward with the rest of the elements. They either fight your main push (leaving Tervi/Terma to take points and win the game) or the focus on your objective-scorers (letting your main force to wipe them out.)

To do this, we want to drop the Termagant squad a little (since they will often be just sitting on an objective), give the Tervigon Adrenal/Toxin (since it will often be fighting unsupported; we may add Talons as well) and split the Warriors into two squads of three for maximum flexibility/resilience. I also strongly suggest you add Toxin to the Warriors- it vastly increases their kill potential. Splitting the Hive Guard to 3x2 also gives you a bit more flexibility. So:

Tyrant (as above)
2 Guard (as above)
3x2 Hive Guard
Tervgigon (AG TS, Cat, Clust)
11 Termagants
8 Genestealers (Tox)
9 Genestealers (Tox)
3 Warriors (LW/BS, Tox, DS)
3 Warriors (LW/BS, Tox, DS)

I believe that works out correctly; I don't really like the Deathspitters on the Warriors, would rather trade them for one Venom Cannon in each squad or something, but I suppose it works well enough. Genestealers go forward, Tyrant, Warriors, and HG at the line, and everything pushes forward shooting. You'll have some issues with tanks sometimes, but your units are monsters in assault, so anything that falls out of its box is basically dead. Tervigon can hold the backfield or go for a distant objective, depending; four of your "attack" squads are also scoring units, so if you clean the enemy off, you can always take things for themselves.
Mine was the last Warrior list sent in. I also thought about swapping one squad of Raveners for a squad of Shrikes, for forward Synapse on the Raveners, but it might not be worth it. Basic shooting Shrikes are same cost as Raveners anyway. Gargoyles might arguably make the list better, but it does break the "all-warrior-chassis" theme. Out of curiosity, does Regen transfer to the rest of the squad? If not, I can't really see taking it.

Edit: Possibility:
Prime, Regen, LW/BS - 105
Prime, Regen, LW/BS - 105
3x3 Hive Guard - 450
2x3 Warriors, 2 Deathspitter, Venom Cannon - 230
2x3 Warriors, 2 Devourers, Barbed Strangler - 200
2x4 Raveners, rending claws - 280
3x Trygon, Adrenal Glands - 630

We lose one entire squad of Raveners, but get a second Prime, split the Warriors into 4 squads, and get better upgrades on things.
3 replies · active 742 weeks ago
Regen does not transfer, but you take it because the Prime is there to soak wounds for the Warriors and it's very cheap.

Shrikes as forward Synapse can work, but I don't often find Raveners running out of Synapse range. They're the same speed as other units until they get into combat, and in combat they don't have to test IB.

The second Prime is good, but I'm not sure he's worth losing a squad for; you're running your Warriors cheap, so losing one is less painful.

I would dump Adrenal on the Trygons to go for VCs over Stranglers. Suppression fire is important.

Also: Hikaru friggin' Gosunkugi, you stud.
Hell yeah Hikaru Gosenkugi! Creepy funny character. I've had that icon for years.

I just don't trust spending 10 points on maybe rolling a 6 in the one or two turns he might have a wound on him. Those 10-20 points can easily go elsewhere in a list like this.

Could drop Regen from both (+20) and Adrenal Glands from the trygons (+50), then take 3x3 Raveners (+15). That last could go into upgrading one more warrior squad into Spitters/Cannon, leaving one warrior squad with Devourers/Strangler. The large blast template could be useful. I kinda feel like the barbed stranglers could be useful against horde-style armies, and I think I have a decent enough anti-tank. This is all hypothetical, of course.
The thing about Regen on the Primes is that he's _there_ to soak wounds. You put two wounds on him early and hope for some sixes; you probably have 3-4 turns of rolling two dice each time looking for a six. And if he gets a wound back off it one game out of two, you're coming out ahead- usually, though, you're doing better than that.

I would avoid Stranglers unless you know you're fighting in a really tank-light environment. Remember how much infantry-killing you have already- the 3x3 Raveners alone can kill ~15 Orks/Guardsmen on the charge, even with just RC/Talons, and your Warriors are similarly deadly. You have the capacity to wipe out large numbers of weak models already.
I Was bildinh nids warrior list, and got to smth like this (no1 here plays tyranid warriors, so i wants an army around em - i will probeably makeit when i soon finish my khorne cultist guard, or mb necrons, i will see)

nids
Prime,LW/BS, deathspiter, regen
Prime, LW/BS, deathspiter, regen

2xhive guard
2xhive guard
2xzoan

6xwarrior,deathspiters
6xwarrior, deathspiter

Dakafex
Dakafex
Tyranofex

1605 pts, so to 1800 have 200 more to add smth, was thinking about choppy warriors, 3rd dakafex or more shooty warriors... fluffy will be nice some gaunts/genestealers or othersmall units, but this artmy have no target for weapons under str 8 (ok zoans, but no other, and i wants them to hide behind wall of fexes so oponent wont see them), so i will not add there some.

Naz
1 reply · active 741 weeks ago
I'm sorry, man, you writing is all but unreadable there. I don't demand that everyone get anal about spelling/grammar like I usually am, buit at least type out real words rather than using crappy internet abbreviations. A chat room this isn't.

Use those points for more troops. Two squads of Warriors is not enough, you could lose basically a whole squad to a single Battle Cannon shot. I'd split them into four groups of three and add two squads of ten Termagants to help score objectives. Two more Hive Guard would aos help with AT and finish things nicely.
abortedsoul's avatar

abortedsoul · 732 weeks ago

Tyranid Warriors are the ideal target for Psyfledreads. They are expensive, dangerous, and scoring. Eating 4 twin-linked BS4 Str8 shots per turn per dread can deplete your warriors rather quickly.

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