
This week, abusepuppy, posted up a thread about what he defined Herohammer as and provided an army in support of this. In essence, his list makes use of the extra HQ's allowed by the Space Wolves coupled with their Saga's and the flexibility of their Codex. My own version of Herohammer is minimal models, coupled with as many strengths as possible within the context of the small number of models and the flexibility of the Codex. Neither concept is more right or more wrong then the other as has been asserted by many viewers of this blog. The reason being that both have inspired other people to play the lists all around the world. Both provide unique challenges to the competitive minded gamer. That all said, because of the nature of the concept of Herohammer in a much more competitive sense in terms of a non-comp environment which abusepuppy is trying to achieve let's take some of the things he has stated both in the article and in comments all over the place, combined with my own complicated thinking and throw it all into a version of the list which is just as much a clustertruck of ideas and options as my original list, or rather more so. The best way to explain this is by dropping down a list.
Taak's 1850pts Expanded Herohammer in the Style of abusepuppy:
CORE ARMY: 1,070pts
HQ 1a) Logan Grimnar - 275
HQ 1b) Njal Storm Caller, Runic Terminator Armour - 270
Troops 1) 5 WG: 1xTDA+SB+PW+CML, 1xTDA+SS+CF, 2xPA+Combi-Melta+BP, 1xPA+BP+CCW -
Dedicated Transport: Drop Pod w/SB - 225
Troops 2) 5xWG: 1xPA+Bike+1xCombi-Flamer, 2xPA+Bike+Combi-Melta, 1xTDA+PW+Combi-Melta+CML, 1xPA+BP+Combi-Melta
Dedicated Transport: Drop Pod w/SB - 300
EXPANDED ARMY: 780pt section:
Heavy Support 1) 4 LF's, 3xMM, 1xPW+BP
Dedicated Transport: Drop Pod w/SB - 140
HQ 2a) 1 Thunderwolf Lord, Saga of the Bear, TH+SS+Runic Armour+Wolf Tooth Necklace - 270
Fast Attack 1) 2xThunderwolf Cavalry, 1xPower Fist - 125
HQ 2b) 1xWolf Priest, Saga of the Hunter, MB's, Wolftooth Necklace, Wolf Amulet, Crozius Arcanum, Combi-Melta - 135
Elites 1) 5 Wolf Scouts, MB's, 4xSniper Rifle+Bolt Pistol, 1xMissile Launcher+Bolt Pistol - 110
Total = 1,850pts
Models = 28
Okay, so we have a lot of mixed messages in the above list and I expect a good percentage of people to look at it and just dismiss it outright as more of Taak's messed up craziness. That's okay. :)
So, before I move onto a more detailed analysis of the above list, I believe it's important at this point to make a blanket statement that there is no right and wrong way to make a Herohammer list, there are SO many options and variant unit/model/equipment choices that 30 or less models at 1,850pts that any number of iterations can prop up. I couldn't fit in Lone Wolves or Stormshields on the Thunderwolf Cavalry, I couldn't fit in larger units of Wolf Guard and I also considered the merits of taking a unit of Grey Hunters coupled with a Wolf Standard and alot of Combat based characters attached, Ragnar Black Mane or even a Biker Rune Priest and that's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of variations and options, each of which bring in differing strengths and weaknesses to the army. At the end of the day, it gets down to how playable the list is in a Competitive sense. Have i done that with the above list? I think so. So lets look at it in more detail.
THE ARMY AS A UNIT
What we have above is many options which make use of one of the less used strengths of the Space Wolf Codex - Character Assignation Amongst Units. The above list has a great deal of options in this with each one allowing a differing variation of the list. Please note that Wolf Guard also fall into this category of character assignation.
Character Assignation Amongst Units makes this army an interesting one and more importantly, this assignation at the beginning of each game will shape the army in that game based on what you do with the assignation. There are many options for this and they aren't always clear. The obvious combination however, is Logan Grimnar in the Long Fang unit mounted in their Drop Pod so as you can pop Relentless on the first turn. Njal also has space in here and so too does a Terminator Wolf Guard, the more preferable model for this being the WG with TDA+SB+PW+CML from Troops 2) aka the Biker Wolf Guard. This brings us to 10 models in terms of transport Capacity within this Drop Pod. The follow up to this is the WG on foot with combi-melta joining the Wolf Scouts. This then free's up the Biker Wolf Guard to move as a single unit. The Saga of the Hunter Wolf Priest can then attach to the Wolf Scouts to make them that much more interesting (everyone loves an Oath of War with Melta-Bombs against a unit type of Walkers after all, and then you also are looking at twin single shot melta's in the unit for armoured units as well - nothing says sticking it to the man like stunning a Walker then assaulting it and melting it up close and personnal with bombs!).
That's the obvious route and the one which in most cases would be used to my mind. You have an outflanking and stealthed unit of Wolf Scouts with a Wolf Priest and Wolf Guard in the mix, a unit of 3 Bikers whose Pod drops down later on empty but because of its inclusion also allows for the Troops 1) Wolf Guard unit to drop in at the same time as The Logan Fangs. The Bikers have the speed to move up in support or to even hang back and make a rush for late game objective grabbing. They don't have storm shields or fancy close combat attacks, but rather are a mobile support unit, which can also be used, as in my original list, to give a transitory T5 to all 3 independent characters not on Thunderwolf in the list. That makes for a fairly intimidating unit when heavy weaponry cannot be brought to bear on it and even then swapping between 2+/4++ and a 3+ save or 3+/4++ save is quite interesting and acts nicely to increase survivability of the unit considerably, especially when you consider that Logan Grimnar has Saga of the Bear so in effect has 2 ablative wounds himself. The Thunderwolf Lord joins the Thunderwolf Cavalry and brings to the board not as many attacks as a warrior born lord, but certainly more survivability and those strength ten attacks are surprisingly effective against everything.
There are other routes here, in effect you can get up to 5 different units churning out anti-armour firepower against up to 6 different targets depending on how the WG with CML are split (Wolf scouts have Sniper Rifles+Missile Launcher; 2xWG units with CML's, LF's can split their MM fire and Njal, in a separate unit, unleashing living Lightning). You also have the option of Plonking the Combi-melta WG in PA from the bikers in the LF unit and the Wolf Priest in this unit as well, this still allows Logan and Njal to fit into the same Pod and the CML WG to attack to the Wolf Scouts thus turning them into a support unit - the Wolf Scouts are surprisingly flexible as a unit able to deal with tanks up close as well as heavy stuff froma distance and with a cyclone Missile Launcher the ability to churn out 3 Frag or Krak missiles is also really useful and rather interesting. But what if we left the WG in the bikers alone so as they'd get the transitory T5 against shooting? You could keep the CML Terminator in there and stick Njal in the unit as well as keep the PA Combi-Melta WG in the unit...or you could stick that PA WG in the LF's and instead drop the Wolf Priest into the unit as well (still got 3 T 4 and 3 T 5 models so toughness = 5 against shooting) except now the whole unit benefits from stealth so in a 4+ cover position, the unit has a 3+ cover save, mixed armour, toughness 5 and invulnerable saves not to mention high strength firepower or a range of anti-infantry firepower. A surprisingly tough nut to crack. Of course, pushing the PA WG to the WS's or the LF's and sticking Logan in the unit instead means you have one very nasty unit on your hands which is surprisingly resilient. I'm not sure if this counts. but in the open, Njal casting Storm caller plus the Stealth from the Wolf priest would still give them a 4+ cover save and with the ability of all 3 characters to split off at the end of the movement phase allowing 4 separate assaults/ranged attacks, it again provides many ingame options.
This leaves us with only one really predictable unit - The Thunderwolf cavalry+Thunderwolf Lord. They are toughness 5, have mixed armour and good survivability as well as a high damage output. They can split off and hit two armoured targets 19-24" away each with 4-5 strength 10 Powerfist/Thunderhammer attacks. This gives some surprisingly mobile combat suppression to the list, but it will get hit very fast with loads of heavy weapons as it is particularly nasty.
So is this iteration of Herohammer a rock list or not? Or, because of the many options of Character Assignation Amongst Unit options present in the list, does this massive flexibility give us the ability to compensate against some opponents and not others? It doesn't need an answer, the point is, the list is flexible, it mitigates many of the weaknesses of my original concept of Herohammer as does abusepuppy's list, but it also plays differently and can be played differently in almost every different game. It is a highly mobile list and puts units where they are needed from the get go as well as allowinga greater flexibility in what it can do. Like all Herohammer lists though, it is a finesse army through and through. Don't expect to win with any of these styles of lists as soon as you pick them up, you really need to know what the armies can do and the only way to do that is through practice. At the end of the day, herohammer style lists are not for everyone, but for those people who have been inspired to collect a variation of a Herohammer List because of mine or abusepuppy's articles, write in to us and let us know how you are fairing with them as well as your own iterations.
All the best,
Auretious Taak.
P.S. The 1,500pts version of the above list can be done in several ways but one way, for those who want to know, is to drop a combi-flamer on the Bikers, the Thunderwolf Cavalry with Powerfist and the Thunderwolf Lord (5+75+270 = 350pts, which gives us 1,500pts remaining); the TWC still has 5 base strength 5 rending attacks, so whilst not as brutal verse armour, is still quite an interesting option in the list.
devilinmypocket 36p · 735 weeks ago
and then milking the Chaplain as Elite function of the Codex. Finished Top 10, and was just a turn away from probably being
in contention for the whole kit. So as to the question of can it work, I'd have to say yes. A thought out list with clear intentions, and then some experience using it, and the element of catching people by surprise with something that has a TWL/Njal/Logan in it, and you could win with it imho.
Edit: And dear 3++ authors, want to instantly buy some good will with me at the start of your article? Include a Firefly picture. 'Big damn heroes,' indeed!
Loriness · 735 weeks ago
Event Horizon is a no-comp tournament, NOT a no-painting tournament. Painting is mandatory.
Roland Durendal · 735 weeks ago
Auretious Taak · 735 weeks ago
@Loriness above - whoever mentioned Event Horizon?
Rawrtime 31p · 735 weeks ago
Overall good article on just how to play things differently.
BUT, as per the first SW FAQ a HQ with sage of the hunter cannot join a unit of spacewolf scouts if they are using OBEL(because OBEL isnt technically outflanking its a seperate rule... even tho it totally is the same), only if they are normally outflanking.
Just my 2c that hurts yours scouts and their reliability in positioning them were you want them, (on your opponents board edge) and forces you to be stuck with the unreliable outflank that everyone else is.
Auretious Taak · 735 weeks ago
The thing is, the Wolf Scouts don't necessarily need to special outflank, it's all game by game, they could be camped in a suppot role as I've mentioned with a CML in there and nice 3+ cover saves from stealth fun, or they could just up and infiltrate as normal, it's a flexible unit alongside the whole army, it doesn't have to play the same way each time and indeed people who play the same way with units a good proportion of their games risk becoming predictable which can be capitalised on. One way of looking at the above list is like 'If I don't know what I'm doing to the last Minute, my opponent sure as hell won't' which can help alot in that psychological edge as well, maybe. Heh.
Rawrtime 31p · 735 weeks ago
Also your right, with their weapon laodout and with your deployment suggestions more often then not they arny going to be using the special outflank so you arnt really hurting yourself there either. I completely agree otherwise with your other points about having so many options to mix and change it up, so your opponent doesn't know what your going to do either.
Auretious Taak · 735 weeks ago
The Lieutenant · 735 weeks ago
Surprisingly effective? Surely S10 combat attacks would be more surprising if they weren't effective? I've never looked at S10 close combat attacks ripping apart my Leman Russ and gone "Whaow. I did NOT see that coming."
Archnomad · 735 weeks ago
@Refyougee · 735 weeks ago
devilinmypocket 36p · 735 weeks ago
I'm sure there are better offensive options, but he wouldn't be around to use them as he'd be laying dead on the ground the first chance I had to take my shot at him, and I'm sure Space Wolf players know this.
Rawrtime 31p · 735 weeks ago
wisdom like silence · 735 weeks ago
wisdom like silence · 735 weeks ago
Cyklown 51p · 735 weeks ago
Auretious Taak. · 735 weeks ago
Also, Walkers/Wraithlords/MC's...2+/3++/3 base wounds almost always, yeah they are fun charging. It's also fun instant deathing entire units of TWC with such a lord...
Thrungrom · 735 weeks ago
Why won't u take canis and the other WL TM in a large Fenrisian Wolves squad?
Take a normal RP in TDA.
I would also consider a wave of drop pods with WG with combimelta's, to get the goods out of their thin can's ,early in the game. So u really can smash in to them.
wisdom like silence · 735 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 735 weeks ago
Priest over WGBL is an interesting choice, could very well be worth the extra points. I'll have to look back over the Priest's stats.
I think you need more of a "hammer" for the Priest/Njal/etc to attach to, five models just isn't enough dudes.
Combi-melta + CML seems like a waste, since you can't fire both of them at once I think. Or does the CML say "in addition to any other weapons"? I thought it was only Storm Bolters, but SW could be different.
Static Wolf Scouts seem like a waste of OBEL. Yeah, BS4 is nice, but so what? Sniper Rifles aren't that good a gun. For being nearly 100pts, they don't really seem to bring anything to the list.
I guess the biker WG only have a pod so you get two in the first turn? Having only ~8 troop models, many of them in power armor, seems like a major weakness to me, though. A lot of armies can just kill your troops and then laugh. The 13 in my army is still way, way too low, but...
No Warrior Born guy? He's basically the best fighty HQ you can take, that seems really odd. Saga of the Bear never really impressed me, there just aren't that many S10 attacks in the game. Dreadnoughts should be eating Multimeltas/etc early on and Vindicators are terrible. Railguns give you fits, but Tau in general will do that since your units are just overkill against them.
Auretious Taak · 735 weeks ago
Priest brings extra bonuses to whatever unit he joins that the WGBL doesn't, less attacks, no ablative FW's, but more buffs. I wouldn't use the Wolf Priest in another of my lists, usually don't need to milk those buffs.
You can get 8 guys with the characters though for the Hammer, and most in terminator armour with various Invulnerable saves. if you run the 3 characters with the bikers that's T5 verse shooting which is nifty - I can't recall right now but if bikers turbo boost, can a character join them if they move into coherency in their movement after the bikes have turbo boosted? If so, 2+ cover saved bikers from the Priest...which brings in multiple different cover saves on a unit...is that possible?
Wolf Scouts don't need to be static. They still all have meltabombs and with special outflank can mess up people who decide castling their armour is a good thing. Missile Launchers/sniper rifles into the rear of an advancing army occasionally have their uses as well, and you still have bolt pistols and ina cinch can provide extra ablative wounds/cover for other people, or just a handy speed bump. It's a personnal choice, I like their flexibility.
Troops in power armour, many of yours also had power armour only, you can't get around the problem without abusing the characters in the units as well. 8-10 troops, sure, but the characters significantly increase the survival time of those troops as well, at least in terms of the list and its' size. We get to just suck it up, we have bugger all guys, that's the list style, view it as a challenge. :)
Saga of the Bear is invaluable. Don't have it, that Warrior Born TWL is dead first turn - mobile mech edition sees to that. Saga of the bear keeps you alive that bit longer, and with an increasing number of weapons both ranged and in combat that cause instant death, ignoring/mitigating those effects is damned good. I'd run the Warrior Born chap if I ran a second TWL. You still have a guy with 6 str 10 attacks on the charge that always hit on a 3+ and if near logan when he unleashes his cool rule, that's 7 attacks...Also, Vindicators may be terrible, but against such a small army, underestimating them is very bad. Space Wolves have many str 10 attacks in the army in HS, Elites, FA, and HQ no less, granted most are on combat bodies, but fast combat bodies at that. DE have alot of ID attacks, Tyranids have Boneswords and Carnifexes and Warp Blast and Rupture Cannons, Blood Angels have that sword power, dreads, vindicators, SM's have dreads and vindicators, and Lysander, Necrons have Mr. I am a monstrous creature that ignores your save and your invulnerable save, die!, Orks, no idea, lol - Nobs and klaws? I dunno, Guard, lots, GK's, lots from rumours, Tau, Railguns, the list goes on and is fairly large. I've had enoughe xperience with TWL's taht the bear and hammer/shield combo is just the stock standard first addition, a iniative based combatant gets in second place just because they die too fast otherwise.
Nice feedback though.
Jason · 735 weeks ago
Auretious Taak · 735 weeks ago
Page 2: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProduct...
"Q. Can an Independent Character that has joined a Wolf
Scouts pack outflank? (p27)
A. No, unless he has the Saga of the Hunter, or another
special rule, which allows him to outflank."
So everything I said about the chap still applies. Epic. :D I don't have my Codex to hand right now though, there might be an issue on the exact wording of the rule the Space Wolf Scouts use, but the fact they state that the Wolf Scouts can still use their outflank move with a Saga of the Hunter directly implies that special outflank or not the Wolf Priest or ay Saga of the Hunter chappy can outflank with the unit how they outflank.