Kirb your enthusiasm!

WEBSITE HOSTED AT: www.3plusplus.net

"Pink isn't a color. It's a lifestyle." - Chumbalaya
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit
"I buy models with my excess money" - Valkyrie whilst a waitress leans over him


Sunday, February 20, 2011

Vindicators are Alright and Other Crazyness

The Vindicator is really quite underrated. Also, it’s a problem that I’ve been mulling over for quite some time.

I started out using vindicators, and they might be my favorite tank. I love the design. I love the concept. What I never really liked, however, were their rules. For what is ostensibly a siege tank, the vindicator sure seems to be equipped with paper armor, especially against canny opponents who can get those side shots off.


But I liked them. So I kept using them. Even after a brief stint running dakkapreds instead, I came back to the trusty Vindicator, and eventually mastered them. The key is in a few rules you should try to NEVER break.

It’s important to understand a few things about vindicators, before we go into their use:

1.) Vindicators are fragile tanks from the side, and pretty tough from the front. Autocannons and missile launchers can certainly damage AV13, but they have a tough time of it. If they get to shoot at our side AV11, you die. That’s a simple truth: if you expose your sides, you lose your tank. In addition, a weapon destroyed effectively takes care of your tank, and an immobilized can mess you up, considering the Vindicator’s small firing arc. Immobilization is actually not as bad as you would think, since your tank will certainly be facing the enemy, but it’s still a pain.

2.) Vindicators are not a good “distraction” tank. They are too expensive and too slow to be able to effectively fulfill this role. We do not want our vindicators blowing up.

So, how should you use your Vindicators? Do these things:

1.) The Vindicator goes in reserve. The Vindicator goes in reserve. THE. VINDICATOR. GOES. IN. RESERVE. This is true 100% of the time, I don’t care what mission it is, I don’t care if you really, really feel like you need an alpha strike. The Vindicator gets reserved all of the time. This mitigates, to a large margin, the primary problem of the Vindicator: being caught and shot before it gets to be useful. “But what about it’s short range?” I hear you saying. 12” is short range; 24” is not. Hell, it’s even 30” when you roll on the board (in a location of your choice) and fire. And if you’re opponent isn’t anywhere near the midfield, they’re probably not winning the game anyway. Also, I struggle to think of something more effective against deep strikers than a vindicator rolling on.

2.) It’s important that the Vindicator lives. If you have the option to hide the Vindicator from something that will kill it, or shoot at something, choose to hide. Remember, S10 AP2 can kill or maim anything in this game, as long as it’s on he board it’s a threat and can help dictate how the enemy plays.

3.) By extension, play it far back. The further away you are, the easier to block LOS, and the harder it is for melee units to get to you. If you think you’re at less than 18”, move further away then fire. Abuse the range as much as possible.

4.) Buy a dozer blade. You want to move through terrain. 1/6 comes up a lot when you’re moving a lot of vehicles through terrain. Don’t bother with the siege shield, we’re not gonna pay 5 points to eliminate a 1/36 chance. Don’t worry about extra armor or any of that other crap; keep it cheap.

Vindicators are not something you should throw into every army- they don’t work in very assault, forward marine armies. They work pretty well in armies designed to hold the middle of the board, and they work fantastically with Pedro and his Sternguard at 2000+ points. They are, effectively, a defensive tank, not a siege tank as advertised. They are best at the counter-thrust, as opposed to the assault straight into the enemy.

Comments (22)

Loading... Logging you in...
  • Logged in as
Care to give an example list? I would like to compare it to the list I made a few months ago.
6 replies · active 737 weeks ago
I'm not at home right now, but I'll post one up tomorrow.
This is a classic "counter-attack" list.

HQ
Pedro Kantor

Elites
Sternguard Squad
+5 Men
+2 Lascannons
+3 Combi-Plasma
+5 Combi-Melta
+Lightning Claw
+Lascannon/Twin-linked Plasma Razorback

Sternguard Squad
+5 Men
+2 Lascannons
+3 Combi-Plasma
+5 Combi-Melta
+Lightning Claw
+Lascannon/Twin-linked Plasma Razorback
+Hunter-Killer

Sternguard Squad
+5 Men
+2 Lascannons
+2 Combi-Plasma
+5 Combi-Melta
+Lightning Claw
+Lascannon/Twin-linked Plasma Razorback
+Hunter-Killer

Troops
Scouts
+Camo Cloaks
+Missile Launcher
+Sniper rifles

Scouts
+Camo Cloaks
+Missile Launcher
+Sniper rifles

Fast Attack
MM/HF Land Speeder
MM/HF Land Speeder

Heavy Support
Vindicator
Vindicator
Vindicator

Split the Sternguard, plas/las and melta with the sarge in the razorback. Shoot the enemy, focus on hard melee units if you can. When the vindicators roll on, counter-attack and move out to the midfield. Anything light gets drowned in sternguard attacks buoyed by Pedro's aura.
Is that supposed to be 2000? I get 2110 when I add it together.

That is a very different list than I imagined.

2x Master of the Forge

Techmarine w/ servo-harness

2x Sternguard (5 strong) w/ 2x multi-melta; Rhino

4x Tactical Squad (5 strong) w/ combi-flamer; Razorback w/ lasplas; hk missile

3x Typhoons

3x Vindies w/ hk missile

Place Rbacks and/or Rhinos next to Vindicators to "hide" AV 11 with MotF/ Techmarine behind each one ready to repair immobilized or weapon destroyed result. Just hang back and shoot if they come at you w/ the Vindicators ready to shoot any infantry that make it to midfield. Sternguard can move into midfield if any Land Raiders or something want to come at you. If you facing something like IG or Tau, load up the MotF's and Techmarine in Rbacks and move forward until the Vindies are in range to shoot stuff.
Yeah, I'm apparently a jackass who can't do basic addition. Especially embarrassing since I ran a list like this for 6ish months. =P Also, apparently my editing privlidges have been revoked on it, which is especially irritating. To fix it drop a speeder, both HK's and a combi-melta from each squad. (One loses two.) Don't know how I fucked that up.

I don't really like the HK on the Vindi, remember, if you fire your main gun you can't fire anything else. Other than that, looks like a fine Marine shooting list.
Hk's are there so the vindies can contribute to shooting for a turn. I can easily move them to the rhinos if I wanted to though.
Once someone replies to your comments, you cannot edit. Universal thing.
brentinKorea's avatar

brentinKorea · 737 weeks ago

What about for Blood Angels and the "fast" rule? Any advice or strategy?
2 replies · active 737 weeks ago
Fast isn't as much of a boon as it would first appear, because if you are cramming the vindi down the opponent's throat, you are doing it wrong. Mostly, fast is nice because it makes it very difficult for the enemy to destroy the vindicators when they do get close. It's also very nice for that turn you come on the board, as it extends the threat range.

So, do the same thing, keep them back, etc. and use moving fast to protect yourself if you need it.
An issue with BA as well is they are generally an aggressive army which is a bad place to have a Vindie.

good post otherwise biscuit; I generally disparage against the Vindie and other one weapon tanks but this looks at it a different way. I wouldn't always reserve it though. The fear of a S10 AP2 blast on T1 can be very effective against some armies (Nob Bikers, Thunder Wolf Cav, Crisis Suits), etc. which can dictate how they deploy. Particularly against armies which aren't going to move into midfield early (i.e. Tau). you're better off trying to get 3+ cover on them and putting early pressure on your opponent.
How about Templar Vindis with PotMS?
3 replies · active 737 weeks ago
Expensive.

That's about it, Wilh

Might try and work in my two vindi's in the near future. Interesting food for thought, Biscuit
Expensive is right, but not necessarily bad. They do get to move further and fire, and you can effectively ignore a lot of shaken/stunned results, but for that many points it's probably better to start looking at some bigger options. I'd take a LR and change over 2 vindi's in most any list, especially assaulty ones, so you're probably better off getting one of those instead.
I'm really liking the Vindie with PotMS. It has a greater range, more survivability, and more lethality. The ability to move 12" and fire allows the Vindie easier access to cover and good angles to the front armor. It's also harder to hit in close combat and ignoring shaken and stunned results is just golden.
Everybody has a cover save, the shot scatters, it's got a low range... Any damage to the vindicator renders it impotent in the following turn.
No, they're not underrated, and more often than not, people actually overrate their vindicators.
2 replies · active 737 weeks ago
Agree,

But, the way SirBiscuit advices to use it is the most effective way of using a Vindicator. The problem I'm still having with it though is that it eats a Heavy Slot and in lower point battles you are reserving a bigger part of your force (which has its own problems).
Everybody has a cover save... until they don't, maybe cause they assaulted a screening unit, or maybe there's not enough cover on the board and you took care of their vehicles first, etc etc. It's certainly common to have some sort of cover, but doesn't always happen.
The shot scatters... a little more than half the time, and even then low scatters will typically hit what you're going after.
It's got a low range... 30" is relatively low, I suppose, for a heavy weapon, but used in a defensive style list where your opponent has to come to you, the range is less of an issue.
Yes, damage to the Vindi renders it impotent (possibly not the case with Immobilized, but perhaps). Shaken/stunned/destroyed results are much like every other vehicle in the game without PotMS. Weapon Destroyed is probably the most significant point here, and yes, it does suck. I grant that.

The way it's been presented here is rating it appropriately, I feel. It's not OMGAWESOME like some people say, and it's not OMGTERRIBAD as others say. Not every army can use one, or should, but there is a time and a place for it.
When one of his selling points is his Ap2, cover does hurt more here.
When one of his selling points is S10 Ordnance against vehicles, scatter does hurt here. (hole not on the vehicle? S5...)
When it has only one gun and 45 degree shooting arc low range immobilized or weapon destroyed does hurt more.

Compare him with a Predator and it should be clear that they don't suffer nearly as much from all these things. What if you play against a gun-line army? Reserves won't really help then and rushing it forward exposes its Side Armour. Sir Biscuit says that armies who aren't in the middle of the board by then are probably going to lose; not true. Quite some armies can afford to blast you for 4 turns, also depending on the mission.

"But he has different roles than a Pred! Why are you even comparing it to a Pred?!" Well, because as I pointed out: the roles he should be excelling at are the roles where the cover-1 gun-scatter ramble comes in, the things I started this ramble with.

OMGTERRIBAD? Meh, in almost any build: yes. In a few builds it's okay I guess but that's about it. (in my opinion)

I've faced tons of Vindies and lolled each time... So I only ever get the theory confirmed too. But that aside (as personal experience is highly dependant on the oppenents you faced ofc)
1 reply · active 737 weeks ago
wisdom like silence's avatar

wisdom like silence · 737 weeks ago

For what it's worth, a BS4 Demolisher is second only to meltaguns in melta range for busting AV14, and it's comparable to TL-las and TL-asscans against AV13.
Each and every word of this article is pure truth.
Reading the first paragraph made me think of the things that are following in the other paragraphs.
100% agreed advices, just the way I use the Vindicator - when I use it.
1. Cover means AP2 is only occasionally relevant. S10 is nice, but the majority of the time it is no better than S8 or S6, bar shooting vehicles (and the Vindicator is bad at shooting vehicles.)

2. 24" is okay range, but it's not great. Enemies with any degree of maneuverability will be able to pretty easily dictate which targets you can and can't attack with it. Starting in reserve means that against a non-aggressive army you'll get... one, maybe two shots?

3. Scattering is very relevant. Without twin linked, the main gun simply isn't accurate enough to justify a one-weapon platform. 60% (or so) of the time you will scatter; I believe it works out to 50% or the time you will miss a vehicle with the center hole of the template, and ask IG how 50% hit rates with one-shot weapons work out for them.

4. Even if you hang back, AV11 on the sides is very relevant. Enemies can and will deploy in corners and maneuver to hit your side armor. You are GOING to take side hits, and there's just no real way around that.

5. Even glancing hits can be crippling to you. any 5 or 6 on a glancing hit or any 3, 4, 5, or 6 on a penetrating hit effectively removes your vehicle from the battle. Yes, Immobilization does remove you because you're spending your time far back on the battlefield and hiding over shooting (Rule #2, right?), which means you are probably not going to have a good shoot, and maybe not a shot at all, once you get stuck in place.

Post a new comment

Comments by

Follow us on Facebook!

Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...