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"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit

Wednesday, March 16, 2011
The Bolterback: It's Not Good

Sorry, BigBellyJarelli, not gonna let this one go. :P
The Bolterback- which is to say, a Razorback with twin-linked Heavy Bolter. It's the "basic" configuration, although you don't see them all that often. I posit that the reason for this is that they're bad; I'm not the only person who thinks this, but some folks (most recently our reader BBJ in the chatbawks as well as occasional discussions with Fluger) disagree. I think it's worth spelling out why I feel as I do on the subject.
(Note: this does NOT apply to the Psyback from the new GK codex, i.e. a Razorback with TLHB, Storm Bolter, and Psybolt Ammunition; this is a totally different animal.)
"It's cheap!"
So is a Rhino- cheaper, in fact- and it also comes with a gun (worse, but not by a lot.) The Bolterback is cheap because it's largely useless- it doesn't really bring anything to a list that something else doesn't do better.
"The Heavy Bolter is good for plinking on small squads or for doing random wounds to things!"
A Rhino's Storm Bolter can do this, too, and you don't give up all the other nice features of the chassis to do so. Sure, the TLHB is going to be better at this, but given it's nothing but a secondary role in your army anyways, why are you giving up effectiveness to be better at it? Generally, when there is only one or two guys left in a squad, they are not relevant models- occasionally the HW guy survives, but this isn't 4th edition; he's no longer always the last one alive no matter what. Fact is, against Marines or other armored foes you're just not causing all that much damage and even against light infantry (like Orks, Tyranids, etc) cover saves mean you aren't causing a whole lot of damage.
"Fire points aren't that effective, anyways."
No, they totally are. Being able to toss out Missiles or Flamer shots from your top hatch is a huge deal, because it means your squad can stay fully protected while applying firepower. it is also often said that it's too easy to avoid getting hit by the Fire Point due to the limit on the vehicle's speed and range- you can just keep out of range. And you know what? That's just fine by me. If my shooting army can define an 18" bubble of "you aren't allowed in here," that is entirely okay with it.
"You can just combat squad and put the other half in the backfield."
You certainly can, but this limits their firing positions and the Combat Squad sitting int the Bolterback can't do anything without disembarking- and against many armies, disembarking is tantamount to suicide. The Rhino's main strength is its ability to protect a unit of troops while still leaving them able to participate in the battle- a Razorback does not do this.
I've got nothing against Razorbacks as a rule- they can be very good units. LasPlas Razors in all the modern Marine books and Flamerbacks and AssBacks in BA armies are all very good buys. (The TLLas one I am not sold on for a variety of reasons, but that's another discussion.) Razorbacks are a great way of transporting troops while not sacrificing firepower- but you need the hull to actually be carrying firepower for that to work. A Bolterback does not bring a gun that does anything particularly useful and comes with enough disadvantages compared to a Rhino that I wouldn't take it even if it was the same cost, much less the higher price you pay now.
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The Bolterback: It's Not Good
2011-03-16T22:22:00+11:00
AbusePuppy
AbusePuppy|Analysis|Space Marines|
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necroninja 36p · 733 weeks ago
Sorry, I literally couldn't resist.
Jeez, I'm a non-competitive (mostly b/c I'm too poor to buy more Battlewagons and because I don't want to stomp on my necron-playing buddy TOO hard) newbie (I got into 40k around the same time as the 5th edition IG codex) who doesn't play as or against Space Marines and even I know that Bolterbacks are a bad idea.
abusepuppy 121p · 733 weeks ago
Mycroft · 733 weeks ago
:)
necroninja 36p · 733 weeks ago
Apparently my ADHD isn't as funny as I think it is.
Kirby 118p · 733 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 733 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 733 weeks ago
Oh I am just too funny!
TheKingElessar · 733 weeks ago
Not being defensive means that it forces you to play around it when a Sponson weapon - and in other options such as Tactical Squads it is the same cost, ludicrously, as the OBVIOUSLY superior Missile Launcher and Multi-Melta.
On a Razorback, you are essentially getting it at the cost of, as you say - Five points, a Fire Point (worth two Special/Heavy shots) AND a Transport Capacity of 4 (but really 5) Space Marines - guys you need to buff your distinctly mediocre combat ability back above 'poor'.
The simplest comparison is the Imperial Guard. Compared to the Multi-Laser, the Heavy Bolter - with a much better AP that SHOULD make it scary to Eldar and veteran IG - is virtually never chosen. I have never seen anyone build a BolterBack, and if I saw someone actually field one in a supposedly competitive list, I would snicker at them.
Sebastien · 733 weeks ago
If I absolutely plan on having a transport that is not going to end up at more than 6 models (combat squadded Tactical marines, Sternguard, Devastators etc.) it doesn't make sense not to plink the 5 points for a weapon that still can do a lot more to contribute than a stormbolter. Not good in the sense that you want to spam it, but a superior choice if you KNOW you are only transporting 5 guys. Not all of those units have something worth shooting out the top hatch.
And while HBs do suck against both Marines and actual hordes, they do have one niche area in which they do shine, which you mentioned: 'elite' 4+ save models. Having a few of them around to use against those can be handy, even if they aren't worth taking in mass. Now if only they were actually worth it against hordes...
abusepuppy 121p · 733 weeks ago
Heavy Bolters aren't ALWAYS an awful weapon- there are some times when you get them cheap enough that they become worthwhile, such as on the Valk/Ven or Dakka Pred. GW simply grossly overestimates the value of a "middle of the road" weapon like the HB that is mediocre at a bunch of things but not actually good at any of them.
TheKingElessar · 733 weeks ago
neverXmoor 43p · 733 weeks ago
Lord Solar Steve · 733 weeks ago
I personally take side sponson HB every time on my LR Battle Tank squad of two and love the fact I have 18 shots at STR 5. Those HB shots have taken down more MC than you want to know, and killed off plenty of Marines and Eldar. Yes I dont always want to fire them as i prefer to let the 8-3 large blast do the talking, but the HB is -very- effective, maybe not on the Razorback, but in other places its great.
Saying that it is bad is like saying that lasguns are bad. No they are just bad when you only have -one- when you have many... well enough can take down anything.
Thor 59p · 733 weeks ago
Lord Solar Steve · 733 weeks ago
TheKingElessar · 733 weeks ago
TheKingElessar · 733 weeks ago
Of course they can kill things on foot. So can a sneeze. We don't measure weapons by their ability to kill infantry, because that's a false comparison - it is too easy.
neverXmoor 43p · 733 weeks ago
farmer_geddon · 733 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 733 weeks ago
I would strongly recommend Rhinos for a DA army, as they're just as good as anyone else's. (Of course, I don't think that the "good" DA build right now involves guys in transports at all, but you can make a not-bad army with the book if you do it right.)
TheKingElessar · 733 weeks ago
RayJ · 733 weeks ago
You could definitely build a decent list with that as your basic building block, but as you say, the really 'Good' DA army is running a lot of terminators with storm shields and some good melta/heavy weapons support.
TheWolfsLunch 61p · 733 weeks ago
If you're close enough for a pistol shot, you're close enough to rapidfire, so that's actually 5 shots of glorious plasma.
neverXmoor 43p · 733 weeks ago
Desc440 · 733 weeks ago
Still, I would probably try to scrape 35 pts for a las plas turret in that situation...
Dezzo · 733 weeks ago
SW: las/plasback
BA: assaultback
SM: las/plasback
GK: psybolterback
Kirby 118p · 733 weeks ago
GK are also happy with LasPlas or TLLC for the extra ranged provided.
abusepuppy 121p · 733 weeks ago
SW: LasPlas
BA: LasPlas, Flamer, AC
GK: Psybolter, ??? (LasPlas and AC+Psy are looking good, but I'm not really sure yet.)
BA has the extra options because Fast and different pricing on the HF make a huge difference.
VT2 79p · 733 weeks ago
Hulksmash · 733 weeks ago
Just my opinion naturally.
abusepuppy 121p · 733 weeks ago
"Ha ha, he has to think about possibly dealing with my three Stealth Suits eventually or else I will have a minimal chance of glancing the rear armor of some of his transports!"
Analysis in a vacuum is bad, but by the same token unsupported assertions are just as invalid.
Hulksmash · 733 weeks ago
Grimnar leading 6 termies w/2 Cyclones
Dreadnought
4x6 GH's w/WG, Combi, Melta in a HB Razors
3xAssCan Razors
3x6 Long Fangs w/5 Missiles
What do you shoot first? To be continued in the next comment :)
abusepuppy 121p · 733 weeks ago
Against that list? Long Fangs first (assuming I've got long-range anti-infantry), then AC Razors, then the HB Razors at leisure. I don't even see why it's a question- the GH are only a meaningful threat to me if they dismount (because they have no fire points), and once they dismount I can chew them up with my own guns.
Also, Logan with no WG troops? I don't get it.
Hulksmash · 733 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 733 weeks ago
*shrug* Maybe you've had it work for you, but you still haven't supported your assertions that it's good and Bolterbacks perform a necessary role with much beyond "they're cheap" and "you don't understand the army." A good assault army (i.e. Tyranids) is going to tear you out of your tanks and assault you at the same time; a good shooting army should have the weapons to deal with at least the relevant portions of your troops. While you hardly have an insignificant number of them, it just doesn't seem like enough to be truly daunting to eliminate it.
VT2 79p · 733 weeks ago
Does that make GK broken OMG IMBA metametametameta, or is it all because I'm better than the people I play?
Hulksmash · 733 weeks ago
VT2 79p · 733 weeks ago
Just like foot orks, and nob bikers.
OMG! DEMONS WON 'ARD BOYZ! SO IMBA! metametameta
'Intelligent list design.' Is it 'intelligent list design' when I blow people off the board with my 3 manz psycannon terminators?
Hulksmash · 733 weeks ago
Grand sweeping statements like your first two lines don't help either with the grand sweeping generalizations.
Hulksmash · 733 weeks ago
That's something a lot of "internet personalities" generally miss. They focus on a unit by unit basis instead armies as a whole. And there aren't nearly enough people out there writing who build an army out of units instead of have an army of units.
Hope that helped.
_Axiomatic_ 47p · 733 weeks ago
1. Does the loss of significant damage output on those four squads ever become an issue?
2. Are the remaining squads resilient enough to prevent you from being reduced to those troop choices?
3. Is this kind of build MEQ only?
4. Care to share anything else about it?
Honest questions, I'd like to hear more about his idea.
It's something people tend to talk about and then do the hand-wavey "it's above you" thing.
I'm not as classy as Sir Biscuit, but do try to read my comments as charitably as you can. :)
PS: confrontational = less people actually listen. Which is OK I guess, if you LIKE the chip on your shoulder...
Hulksmash · 733 weeks ago
1. I've found I'm not losing as much damage output as you might think. Lasplas in today's environment kills not so much more than heavy bolters when it comes to infantry. I've got enough anti-tank in the rest of the list.
2. They seem to be. Or maybe it would be better to say that by the time they've been reduced that I've normally eliminated the greatest threats to the remaining 24 MEQ's.
abusepuppy 121p · 733 weeks ago
My thoughts:
1. LasPlas are good because they can hurt armor AND kill heavy infantry. (And they're almost as good against light infantry as the Bolterback is.) Losing out on their duality is a major hit. I'm not sure I buy your abundance of AT- that's, what, 1850 or 2K? And you have 3x Long Fangs, a Rifleman, and two Cyclones? (The Melta isn't relevant if I can shake/stun your vehicles in the early game, effectively disabling them.) That's well below what most lists can/should field in a competive environment, in my opinion.
2. Resilience isn't an issue, I agree. You have a pretty reasonable number of bodies in the list.
3. Other armies can't really run the 5mans this way or, aside from BA, the huge firepower from Devs. I can't see it really working.
Hulksmash · 733 weeks ago
4. It's something to be experimented with honestly. It took me 5-6 major tweaks to get the list to where there are no good choices for my opponent. It plays as heavily toward the psycology of most players. They ignore the future threat for the current one. And the rest of the list compliments this.
Hope that helped :) Hit me up, my email is on my blog if you wanna talk more about it.
neverXmoor 43p · 733 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 733 weeks ago
Without disagreement, you can't have meaningful discussion.
_Axiomatic_ 47p · 733 weeks ago
I am very glad I had the opportunity to read this discussion between Hulksmash and you, AP. Both of you definitely have given me food for thought. It's one of the best conversations I've read on any site lately.
I really don't see either of you as being confrontational now that I re-read what was written, so I suppose my take away lesson is to reserve judgement, and to learn that posting while drunk is a bad idea...
Hulksmash · 733 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 733 weeks ago
Good discussion between Hulk and AP.
Posting drunk is great btw =D.
abusepuppy 121p · 733 weeks ago
A Rhino would be 5pts cheaper, let you shoot your Melta out the top, and still be able to plink. What's the benefit? Vague anti-infantry, I guess? Is your SW list struggling to kill foot Orks and Eldar?
Also, AssBacks in SW? Sorry, 24" guns on platforms that only move 6" just aren't that terrifying.
Armies do need to be build as a synthesis- that's why Tyrannofexes are useful, etc. Unit values change releative to what else is in the list, but those aren't major shifts- bad units are still bad. Bolterbacks don't _do_ anything that's useful, and I don't buy the argument of "they're useful because they're useless so people ignore them."
Hulksmash · 733 weeks ago
If that is indeed the case. If you view the troops as something you have to take to score that will likely only get out of their vehicle explodes then you're right. A bolterback probably would be subpar in those conditions.
In regards to the TL-Asscans everyone says that. Till they play it. They are the perfect fit in an offensively oriented and aggressive mech force. I think most people seriously overestimate the amount of room they have to manuever to which leads to the belief that 24" isn't enough. But that's another discussion.
abusepuppy 121p · 733 weeks ago
Eight Meltas would be a lot more dangerous if you could fire without exposing yourself to every possible danger; that's the strength of the Rhino's fire points. The moment you hop out of your transport, all those LasPlas, all those assault units, all those torrent guns are going to be aimed at your squad.
Eh. For an aggressive force like SW it's not that they won't be in range (although that WILL be a problem against Eldar/DE and a few other armies), it's the fact that you have to close in so near the enemy (and have only mediocre maneuverability) that makes them problematic. They're not horrible, they're not really even bad- I would really just call them middling compared to the other options you have. (As a Tyranid player, I am intimately familiar with how far 24" on a platform that moves 6" is- sometimes it's just fine, but a lot of the time it feels very limiting.)
Hulksmash · 733 weeks ago
See by taking a Lasplas not only am I going to get 1 less squad. I'm also going to make that decision easy. Oh, I can stop his mobility and eliminate a fire support threat. Win/Win. You're weapon load out makes decisions easy in any non-kp scenario. Mine makes it a hard decision that is more likely to cause your opponent to take the wrong shot.
Again, these are just my viewpoints and opinions. You entitled to run your army anyway you want to. You gonna make it to Nova AP?
abusepuppy 121p · 733 weeks ago
I wish I could make it to NOVA, but travel costs are just not doable for me at this points, especially with moving right now. It's definitely something I'd love to make it to when it becomes a possibility, though. (Also, to be honest, I'm not really sure I'm good enough to give strong competition at an event like that, but that certainly wouldn't stop me from wanting to go.)
Hulksmash · 733 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 733 weeks ago
VT2 79p · 733 weeks ago
Bolterbacks are good when you have 40 points left, and nowhere else to put them.
When you start actively taking bolterbacks, it's kinda obvious you're doing something wrong.
Hulksmash · 733 weeks ago
tzeentchling 76p · 733 weeks ago
OK, so if we think those points can be used elsewhere in the army, what else could we do? Well, we can transform them into Rhinos. Saves 20 points to be used for something, maybe some HKM, but what now? If you only took 5-man squads with combis in the Razorbacks, you now have (mostly useless) 5-man squads in Rhinos that can't do anything at range and have nothing worthwhile to fire out of a firepoint. We could, of course, change the list around to be full squads in Rhinos with flamer, MM, combi and use the full capacity, or flamer/ML/combi and combat squad to have 5 guys back and 5 with decent weapons move up. Either way, this significantly changes the style of the list - more marines means less armor saturation, and either forces some to be out of vehicles or forces you to cluster your forces in less locations.
Heavy bolters, en masse, are not horrible. Not the best, and lord knows how much I would love to upgrade the HBs to Autocannons or something, but they have their uses. Hitting medium-T monstrous creatures (like Daemon Princes), picking on squads outside of transports (perhaps after you've blown them up), threatening fast, light skimmers like Raiders or Land Speeders - for the points, and in the particular build, they're not bad. Are las/plas better weapons? Arguably, yes, but en masse those upgrade costs start to add up and really matter.
abusepuppy 121p · 733 weeks ago
So instead of five bad guns, I can get four excellent ones? I'll take that deal, sir.
You shouldn't be taking five-man Tacticals in Rhinos in the first place, so that's a pointless comparison.
Armor saturation is only relevant if our targets are a threat- a Bolterback with a single combi-weapon inside is not.
Hulksmash · 733 weeks ago
@oldgrue · 733 weeks ago
While the threat of S5 with Heavy Bolters is good on paper my experience is that I'm more likely to have 24" fire lanes than 36". This makes a Rhino with two Storm Bolters more attractive for the cost and utility. Statistically the TLHB may hit more but the range increase doesn't make a reliable impact. The S/AP are for the most part going to waste either on hordes of lighter armored or fragile targets.
The 35 point upgrade to a Las/Plas can also be considered a cost saving measure on Tactical Squads - presenting the squad cover, another vehicle target, and a heavy/special weapon that can fire on the move for the cost of the 10 man squad.
One of the flaws with the Heavy Bolter upgrade is that the volume of fire simply isn't enough to threaten horde units. A block of Boys, IG, Termagaunts, or Kroot are hardly going to be fazed at a loss of 2 models (the most likely combination of hit/woound combination). If it had been Two Heavy Bolters I'd be willing to accept it as an antitroop option. That its cheap shouldn't be its saving grace - it needs to bring more utility to be a viable option.
I'm waffling on whether 4 or 5 Razorbacks are the best option for saturation. The Heavy Bolters simply do nothing my other units cannot do better.
Comrade · 733 weeks ago
Just... plink away at them
Las/Plas dont 'plink', they 'zaap'. And a plink is way more manly then a zap
TheWolfsLunch 61p · 733 weeks ago
And Plasmaguns don't Zap either, they Melt, burn away, slag, vapourise. Cause a very burny acidic death of sheer pain.
Bolterbacks aren't very scary, just annoying. Sure, they'll be good against noobs who won't like it when their fabulous foot army of blue muh-reens loses 3 guys a turn (not using mathhammer, just assuming that'd be about right) and then chase after the deadly bolterbacks of cheese and death, but, against someone who knows how to use their army, all your good units (which the bolterbacks just aren't) are going to be under heavy fire since your opponent won't have to worry about target priority, because there isn't a bunch of high-profile targets, instead there's a bunch of bolterbacks. I've seen stormbolters on rhinos do more damage than heavy bolters over the course of the game.
Hulksmash · 733 weeks ago
@oldgrue · 733 weeks ago
gdmnw 50p · 733 weeks ago
Looking at how killy it can be is looking at the wrong thing. No one is going to rave about how uber the TLHB is, but it is cheap, allowing you to buy more uber somewhere else. Over four squads you could save 140 points.
That's a AutoLas Predator, A 4x missile Dev Squad, another combat squad in a rhino or HBRB, or a chaplain, or a librarian, or a DakkaDread... The list goes on.
Marshal_Wilhelm 61p · 733 weeks ago
5 ML Fangs + Leader = 140
Is LasPlas giving you something krak doesn't - yes. ap2 is essential when needed - eg, TEq.
But is that worth 5 APC popping shots, and then 4 HB shots into the passengers.
Hmmm, Idk.
Those five ML pumping out frags and those 12 HB shots could wreck the smaller bugs.
Swings and roundabouts?
abusepuppy 121p · 733 weeks ago
gdmnw 50p · 733 weeks ago
I think there is something to be said for a low risk transport as opposed to a high risk one. If you only need to move five guys around then 5 points for a TLHB may not be a terrible idea.
I'm not convinced they're a write off. Although I am happy to agree that they're not good. Units don't need to be good to make an army work well.
nfluger 60p · 733 weeks ago
Plink away at squads? For sure! You're hitting reliably, and have decent strength. You average just under 2 wounds per round on T4 models before saves with a HBback. Not insignificant. Also, it can go after MCs decently. Lets look at it shooting MEq vs the ubiquitous las/pls. Las plas is 75 pts vs 40. Virtually a 2 to 1 rate. So, 6 HB shots or, at best 3 shots? Lets run the math:
2 HBbacks do 3.55 wounds before saves, or 1 dead MEq
Single las plas at 12" range assuming it didn't move does 2.03 wounds. If the MEq is in cover (which it should be!), that's just 1 dead MEq.
HUZZAH! They are identical in output even with the las/plas in an ideal position. At >24" range, the HBback is obviously better at killing infantry as it functions the same and the las/plas is killing about 1 model every 4 turns if they are in cover...
nfluger 60p · 733 weeks ago
_Axiomatic_ 47p · 733 weeks ago
I'm interested to see how that works out. SB+boltgun vs. troops + no need to disembark for melta?
oadius · 708 weeks ago
Roland Durendal · 708 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 708 weeks ago
Desc440 · 708 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 708 weeks ago
Marshal_Wilhelm 71p · 708 weeks ago
But even the tlLC is 90 pts, 15 more than the equivalent C :S M version, and lets not mention the LasPlas....
Unless you are playing at, imo, too high a points value, >2K, then you have no reason, in a Templars list, to pad out your list with them, if you are wanting to squeeze the most from your list.
The 50 pts for the DA Bolterback is not so bad, but as DA have the nicer 35pt Rhino, that is an extra 10 pts over the C :S M version, and from a Dex that is generally already paying top rate for their goodies.
The DA Lasback costs 80pts, which is only 5 pts more than C :S M. But I am wondering, how many C :S M would take the tlLC-back, even if the LasPlas was not in the Codex?
It is fairly modest firepower for the investment.
The only 'real' Razorback choices, imo, are the tlHF version for BA, and the LasPlas for BA and the other Dexes who can.
It would have been cool if they had actually made tlHF not a joke for non-BA Dexes, and allowed them to fire when moving 12"
Otherwise, why on earth would you take them?
abusepuppy 121p · 708 weeks ago
Even if the TLHF was just 40pts for SW/SM, I still don't think it would be worth it (although it would at least be worth considering, as opposed to now.) Giving it Fast or pseudo-Fast (like the old Immo) would be a bit much, though- that's just adding upgrades for the sake of upgrades.
TLLC... well, I'm sure we all know the issues it has now. I seem to recall Stelek made a BT list that basically spammed those (with PotMS) and min-size LasPlas squads, but I dunno whether it was actually viable or not.
Desc440 · 708 weeks ago