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Wednesday, March 16, 2011

The Bolterback: It's Not Good


Sorry, BigBellyJarelli, not gonna let this one go. :P

The Bolterback- which is to say, a Razorback with twin-linked Heavy Bolter. It's the "basic" configuration, although you don't see them all that often. I posit that the reason for this is that they're bad; I'm not the only person who thinks this, but some folks (most recently our reader BBJ in the chatbawks as well as occasional discussions with Fluger) disagree. I think it's worth spelling out why I feel as I do on the subject.

(Note: this does NOT apply to the Psyback from the new GK codex, i.e. a Razorback with TLHB, Storm Bolter, and Psybolt Ammunition; this is a totally different animal.)

"It's cheap!"
So is a Rhino- cheaper, in fact- and it also comes with a gun (worse, but not by a lot.) The Bolterback is cheap because it's largely useless- it doesn't really bring anything to a list that something else doesn't do better.

"The Heavy Bolter is good for plinking on small squads or for doing random wounds to things!"
A Rhino's Storm Bolter can do this, too, and you don't give up all the other nice features of the chassis to do so. Sure, the TLHB is going to be better at this, but given it's nothing but a secondary role in your army anyways, why are you giving up effectiveness to be better at it? Generally, when there is only one or two guys left in a squad, they are not relevant models- occasionally the HW guy survives, but this isn't 4th edition; he's no longer always the last one alive no matter what. Fact is, against Marines or other armored foes you're just not causing all that much damage and even against light infantry (like Orks, Tyranids, etc) cover saves mean you aren't causing a whole lot of damage.


"Fire points aren't that effective, anyways."

No, they totally are. Being able to toss out Missiles or Flamer shots from your top hatch is a huge deal, because it means your squad can stay fully protected while applying firepower. it is also often said that it's too easy to avoid getting hit by the Fire Point due to the limit on the vehicle's speed and range- you can just keep out of range. And you know what? That's just fine by me. If my shooting army can define an 18" bubble of "you aren't allowed in here," that is entirely okay with it.

"You can just combat squad and put the other half in the backfield."
You certainly can, but this limits their firing positions and the Combat Squad sitting int the Bolterback can't do anything without disembarking- and against many armies, disembarking is tantamount to suicide. The Rhino's main strength is its ability to protect a unit of troops while still leaving them able to participate in the battle- a Razorback does not do this.

I've got nothing against Razorbacks as a rule- they can be very good units. LasPlas Razors in all the modern Marine books and Flamerbacks and AssBacks in BA armies are all very good buys. (The TLLas one I am not sold on for a variety of reasons, but that's another discussion.) Razorbacks are a great way of transporting troops while not sacrificing firepower- but you need the hull to actually be carrying firepower for that to work. A Bolterback does not bring a gun that does anything particularly useful and comes with enough disadvantages compared to a Rhino that I wouldn't take it even if it was the same cost, much less the higher price you pay now.

Comments (81)

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BUT WATTABOUT DA PSYBACK!?!?!?!?!?!!?!!?!???!?!1111

Sorry, I literally couldn't resist.
Jeez, I'm a non-competitive (mostly b/c I'm too poor to buy more Battlewagons and because I don't want to stomp on my necron-playing buddy TOO hard) newbie (I got into 40k around the same time as the 5th edition IG codex) who doesn't play as or against Space Marines and even I know that Bolterbacks are a bad idea.
6 replies · active 733 weeks ago
Pretty sure you missed the part where I specifically exempted the Psyback from the discussion, brah.
Your satire detector may be malfunctioning; better get that looked at.

:)
I'm afraid Mycroft is right: I was making a bad joke. Sorry if I wasn't funny.

Apparently my ADHD isn't as funny as I think it is.
No Puppy is just to cereal.
*crosses arms* If all y'all can't learn to spell words right I'm gonna have to kick you out of my thread.
I see you're kicking of thread and raise you the blog :P.

Oh I am just too funny!
You glossed over the fact that a Heavy Bolter is actually just a BAD weapon. It has neither the RoF to worry the Infantry it's meant to kill, nor the S to harm vehicles with any regularity.

Not being defensive means that it forces you to play around it when a Sponson weapon - and in other options such as Tactical Squads it is the same cost, ludicrously, as the OBVIOUSLY superior Missile Launcher and Multi-Melta.

On a Razorback, you are essentially getting it at the cost of, as you say - Five points, a Fire Point (worth two Special/Heavy shots) AND a Transport Capacity of 4 (but really 5) Space Marines - guys you need to buff your distinctly mediocre combat ability back above 'poor'.

The simplest comparison is the Imperial Guard. Compared to the Multi-Laser, the Heavy Bolter - with a much better AP that SHOULD make it scary to Eldar and veteran IG - is virtually never chosen. I have never seen anyone build a BolterBack, and if I saw someone actually field one in a supposedly competitive list, I would snicker at them.
10 replies · active 733 weeks ago
Interestingly enough, while I totally agree that the Heavy Bolters are not a very effective weapon, and basically fail at achieving what they are supposed to do, I disagree with the conclusion that Bolterbacks are never worth taking.

If I absolutely plan on having a transport that is not going to end up at more than 6 models (combat squadded Tactical marines, Sternguard, Devastators etc.) it doesn't make sense not to plink the 5 points for a weapon that still can do a lot more to contribute than a stormbolter. Not good in the sense that you want to spam it, but a superior choice if you KNOW you are only transporting 5 guys. Not all of those units have something worth shooting out the top hatch.

And while HBs do suck against both Marines and actual hordes, they do have one niche area in which they do shine, which you mentioned: 'elite' 4+ save models. Having a few of them around to use against those can be handy, even if they aren't worth taking in mass. Now if only they were actually worth it against hordes...
Your five-man combat squad should have at least one, and more likely two weapons it wants to shoot out the top hatch (whatever special you got plus a combi, in most cases.) Tacticals obviously want this; Sternguard shooting is the reason you buy them, so obviously they want a hatch if they can get it as well. Devastators... wait, what? Why are your Devs even IN a transport? Stop that nonsense.

Heavy Bolters aren't ALWAYS an awful weapon- there are some times when you get them cheap enough that they become worthwhile, such as on the Valk/Ven or Dakka Pred. GW simply grossly overestimates the value of a "middle of the road" weapon like the HB that is mediocre at a bunch of things but not actually good at any of them.
Vendettas are indeed a good example. DakkaPreds, not really. Their main usefulness then is preventing it getting Immobilised. :/
Why do you care whether your Predator gets immobilized once their autocannon gets blown off (assuming they don't have sponsons to shoot)?
Anyone who think HB are not an effective weapon never has played a Guard player who knows how to use them effectively on their Leman Russ tanks.

I personally take side sponson HB every time on my LR Battle Tank squad of two and love the fact I have 18 shots at STR 5. Those HB shots have taken down more MC than you want to know, and killed off plenty of Marines and Eldar. Yes I dont always want to fire them as i prefer to let the 8-3 large blast do the talking, but the HB is -very- effective, maybe not on the Razorback, but in other places its great.

Saying that it is bad is like saying that lasguns are bad. No they are just bad when you only have -one- when you have many... well enough can take down anything.
Nobody is saying HBs are bad. What he is saying is that an HB Razorback is not worthwhile for all the reasons he explained.
You and Abuse might not be but Sebastien was which is why i stated something about it. :-)
ORLY? Take out my Grav Tanks with them then. Oryt. :P

Of course they can kill things on foot. So can a sneeze. We don't measure weapons by their ability to kill infantry, because that's a false comparison - it is too easy.
You know that Leman Russes can shoot their turret weapon in addition to their other guns, right?
farmer_geddon's avatar

farmer_geddon · 733 weeks ago

As a DA player, I'm stuck between TLHB and TLLC... Is it worth ditching the idea of razorbacks and sticking to Rhino's with 2 stormbolters?
5 replies · active 733 weeks ago
DA Razorbacks are pretty terrible. Not only are they 10pts more expensive than a SM one for no reason, you don't have either of the "good" weapon options (TLAC, LasPlas.) The TLHB is absolutely atrocious for them and there is absolutely no defense for taking one, even more than for other Marines. The TLLC is not very good either, as it suffers from the same "one-gun syndrome" that cripples the Vindicator in many ways.

I would strongly recommend Rhinos for a DA army, as they're just as good as anyone else's. (Of course, I don't think that the "good" DA build right now involves guys in transports at all, but you can make a not-bad army with the book if you do it right.)
AP - they get 5-man Specials. *Nearly* makes up for the crappy Razors.
DA Rhinos are actually better in some capacities than SM Rhinos. If the only upgrade you want to take is the extra Storm Bolter, you can come away 5 points cheaper. a 5-man unit with special in a double-storm-bolter rhino isn't bad for going into the midefield. I would probably focus on plasma guns for a reliable threat range when sitting by the objectives (and maybe including a plasma pistol for 3-shots up close).

You could definitely build a decent list with that as your basic building block, but as you say, the really 'Good' DA army is running a lot of terminators with storm shields and some good melta/heavy weapons support.
'I would probably focus on plasma guns for a reliable threat range when sitting by the objectives (and maybe including a plasma pistol for 3-shots up close).'

If you're close enough for a pistol shot, you're close enough to rapidfire, so that's actually 5 shots of glorious plasma.
Where's your second plasma gun coming from?
I can think of a few uses for bolterbacks over Rhinos, but they are marginal at best. Ex: buy a dev squad, a libby and a bolterback. Stick the devs in cover, and mount up the libby in the razor to have a mobile 5+ cover generator that adds to the armour saturation of a mech list.

Still, I would probably try to scrape 35 pts for a las plas turret in that situation...
my take:

SW: las/plasback
BA: assaultback
SM: las/plasback
GK: psybolterback
3 replies · active 733 weeks ago
BA flamerbacks as well.

GK are also happy with LasPlas or TLLC for the extra ranged provided.
SM: LasPlas
SW: LasPlas
BA: LasPlas, Flamer, AC
GK: Psybolter, ??? (LasPlas and AC+Psy are looking good, but I'm not really sure yet.)

BA has the extra options because Fast and different pricing on the HF make a huge difference.
Grey knights should always run plasmabcks.
Currently my SW's run 4. They fit perfectly into how I control my enemies fire priority. People need to think outside the box when building lists. Stop looking at units in a vacuum compared to others. Instead consider what is going to help you help your opponent make mistakes. Or even better present him a no-win decision.

Just my opinion naturally.
28 replies · active 733 weeks ago
Wanna explain that a little more? Because presenting low-priority, overcosted threats isn't really what I consider "controlling fire priority."

"Ha ha, he has to think about possibly dealing with my three Stealth Suits eventually or else I will have a minimal chance of glancing the rear armor of some of his transports!"

Analysis in a vacuum is bad, but by the same token unsupported assertions are just as invalid.
Cute AP. You do have a tendency to assert a position angrily and present it as the only position but here's the way I've seen it work out over 50+ RTT and GT games w/exactly 2 ties and no losses. Alright. In a standard scoring mission here are your targets:

Grimnar leading 6 termies w/2 Cyclones
Dreadnought
4x6 GH's w/WG, Combi, Melta in a HB Razors
3xAssCan Razors
3x6 Long Fangs w/5 Missiles

What do you shoot first? To be continued in the next comment :)
*shrug* I've said before, good play is not good list design. I've seen people win with Footdar and Necrons, that doesn't make those armies "good" either.

Against that list? Long Fangs first (assuming I've got long-range anti-infantry), then AC Razors, then the HB Razors at leisure. I don't even see why it's a question- the GH are only a meaningful threat to me if they dismount (because they have no fire points), and once they dismount I can chew them up with my own guns.

Also, Logan with no WG troops? I don't get it.
And that order is the exact order every person tries. Looks good on paper but the amount of shots needed to succeed with your order in less than 3 turns is nearly impossible for anyone except Dark Eldar. It'll depend on your list and we can theoryhammer all day but I can tell you that forcing you to choose between troop elimination and threat elimination is the reason for the Bolterbacks and it does indeed work.
Maybe I'm totally crazy or I'm misjudging the points, but you have eight vehicles in a ~1850 army. If your opponents can't disable that reasonably quickly, the army they are playing is either rolling poorly or badly designed. (My 1850 Tau list, for example, wrecks all your AssBacks T1 and your Bolterbacks T2 on average, even assuming its Piranhas do nothing like they usually do.)

*shrug* Maybe you've had it work for you, but you still haven't supported your assertions that it's good and Bolterbacks perform a necessary role with much beyond "they're cheap" and "you don't understand the army." A good assault army (i.e. Tyranids) is going to tear you out of your tanks and assault you at the same time; a good shooting army should have the weapons to deal with at least the relevant portions of your troops. While you hardly have an insignificant number of them, it just doesn't seem like enough to be truly daunting to eliminate it.
Yeah, and my foot GK, that uses the 3rd edition demonhunters codex, are still undefeated in 5th edition.
Does that make GK broken OMG IMBA metametametameta, or is it all because I'm better than the people I play?
I'll happily admit to being better than the majority of people I play. But that doesn't change the fact that part of that is intelligent list design. I've played this list in several metro's in the US w/the same degree of success everywhere. Either everyone is a worse player than me (something I doubt) or there might be something to the list that helps people make mistakes.
Against a good player, bolterbacks are useless.
Just like foot orks, and nob bikers.

OMG! DEMONS WON 'ARD BOYZ! SO IMBA! metametameta
'Intelligent list design.' Is it 'intelligent list design' when I blow people off the board with my 3 manz psycannon terminators?
When you properly address my statements with comments that encourage discussion I'll go more in depth. Unfortuantely, unlike AP, your immitation of a child putting his fingers in his ears and yelling to not hear his parents means that no intelligent conversation can take place.

Grand sweeping statements like your first two lines don't help either with the grand sweeping generalizations.
Basically by not using a high profile weapon on my Razorbacks I'm intentionally driving your firepower toward units that won't matter in 2/3's of games. Also in a KP mission your also pulled away from 8 of my armies KP's because of the "limited" damage they cause. Meanwhile I'm generally allowed to manuever and properly position my troop squads to the greatest effect. The damage the HB's do is a bonus honestly. Do you see what I mean. You actually proved my point in your little comment. I've diverted all your firepower from my scoring units. I've just controlled your fire priority and used your biased of units you don't respect to control the game.

That's something a lot of "internet personalities" generally miss. They focus on a unit by unit basis instead armies as a whole. And there aren't nearly enough people out there writing who build an army out of units instead of have an army of units.

Hope that helped.
That's a cool idea, Hulksmash. 2000 pts?
1. Does the loss of significant damage output on those four squads ever become an issue?
2. Are the remaining squads resilient enough to prevent you from being reduced to those troop choices?
3. Is this kind of build MEQ only?
4. Care to share anything else about it?

Honest questions, I'd like to hear more about his idea.
It's something people tend to talk about and then do the hand-wavey "it's above you" thing.
I'm not as classy as Sir Biscuit, but do try to read my comments as charitably as you can. :)

PS: confrontational = less people actually listen. Which is OK I guess, if you LIKE the chip on your shoulder...
Hey Ax. I'll explain and answer as best I can. It's not so much "it's above you" as I'm not sure I can fully explain it well enough. I don't have a problem with questions or with AP. He does take a slightly more confrontational role, probably because this site needs someone like that :) Anyway: Yes it's 2k.

1. I've found I'm not losing as much damage output as you might think. Lasplas in today's environment kills not so much more than heavy bolters when it comes to infantry. I've got enough anti-tank in the rest of the list.
2. They seem to be. Or maybe it would be better to say that by the time they've been reduced that I've normally eliminated the greatest threats to the remaining 24 MEQ's.
>.> Look, someone's gotta have an opinion. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, I just don't see any strong arguments in favor of BolterBacks. Everyone just smiling and nodding and saying "All armies builds are equally successful!" is not exactly useful.

My thoughts:

1. LasPlas are good because they can hurt armor AND kill heavy infantry. (And they're almost as good against light infantry as the Bolterback is.) Losing out on their duality is a major hit. I'm not sure I buy your abundance of AT- that's, what, 1850 or 2K? And you have 3x Long Fangs, a Rifleman, and two Cyclones? (The Melta isn't relevant if I can shake/stun your vehicles in the early game, effectively disabling them.) That's well below what most lists can/should field in a competive environment, in my opinion.

2. Resilience isn't an issue, I agree. You have a pretty reasonable number of bodies in the list.

3. Other armies can't really run the 5mans this way or, aside from BA, the huge firepower from Devs. I can't see it really working.
3. It's a build that works best w/SW's & BA's honestly. I don't see it working for standard SM as the 5-man unit doesn't retain enough combat potential.
4. It's something to be experimented with honestly. It took me 5-6 major tweaks to get the list to where there are no good choices for my opponent. It plays as heavily toward the psycology of most players. They ignore the future threat for the current one. And the rest of the list compliments this.

Hope that helped :) Hit me up, my email is on my blog if you wanna talk more about it.
So ... why not put them in rhinos?
>confrontational = less people actually listen

Without disagreement, you can't have meaningful discussion.
You know what? You are absolutely right.

I am very glad I had the opportunity to read this discussion between Hulksmash and you, AP. Both of you definitely have given me food for thought. It's one of the best conversations I've read on any site lately.

I really don't see either of you as being confrontational now that I re-read what was written, so I suppose my take away lesson is to reserve judgement, and to learn that posting while drunk is a bad idea...
Hulksmash's avatar

Hulksmash · 733 weeks ago

Glad you got something out of it. AP makes some excellent points. We have 2 different viewpoints that we probably won't reconcile but at least some people can see 2 different points of view and draw from it what works best for them.
Which is what 3++ is all about, yes? ^^

Good discussion between Hulk and AP.

Posting drunk is great btw =D.
The targets are low-priority because I can afford to ignore them- they do not significantly threaten the opposing army. Conscript Squads also "divert fire" in the same way- by being terrible. (Obviously to a greater degree, but..) You're giving your opponent easy target priority by presenting fewer threats- if you were saving points, that might be useful, but you aren't, you're just taking mediocre transports.

A Rhino would be 5pts cheaper, let you shoot your Melta out the top, and still be able to plink. What's the benefit? Vague anti-infantry, I guess? Is your SW list struggling to kill foot Orks and Eldar?

Also, AssBacks in SW? Sorry, 24" guns on platforms that only move 6" just aren't that terrifying.

Armies do need to be build as a synthesis- that's why Tyrannofexes are useful, etc. Unit values change releative to what else is in the list, but those aren't major shifts- bad units are still bad. Bolterbacks don't _do_ anything that's useful, and I don't buy the argument of "they're useful because they're useless so people ignore them."
How do 24 MEQ w/8 Melta not threaten an army? Unless you sitting on some serious counter assault I don't see how you can dismiss them. Don't get me wrong, most people who run razorspam regard the troops as something they have to take for the tanks which you obviously do. Cool. It appears we're looking at it from two completely different veiw points though.

If that is indeed the case. If you view the troops as something you have to take to score that will likely only get out of their vehicle explodes then you're right. A bolterback probably would be subpar in those conditions.

In regards to the TL-Asscans everyone says that. Till they play it. They are the perfect fit in an offensively oriented and aggressive mech force. I think most people seriously overestimate the amount of room they have to manuever to which leads to the belief that 24" isn't enough. But that's another discussion.
Your GHs don't have PWs, PFists, or any other upgrades listed- they're not ignorable, but any sort of dedicated assault unit should scythe through them pretty quickly. Sanguinary Guard, TH/SS, any Tyranid MC, etc, should all clean your guys out pretty effectively once they run into them. If you had more shooting you could cut them down to size before that happened, but it really doesn't feel like you do. Don't get me wrong, 3x Long Fangs is brutal if they're alive, but since they're the only pressing threat in your list, I imagine they will suck up a lot of fire early and get whittled down, with the rest of the list being unimpressive in damage output.

Eight Meltas would be a lot more dangerous if you could fire without exposing yourself to every possible danger; that's the strength of the Rhino's fire points. The moment you hop out of your transport, all those LasPlas, all those assault units, all those torrent guns are going to be aimed at your squad.

Eh. For an aggressive force like SW it's not that they won't be in range (although that WILL be a problem against Eldar/DE and a few other armies), it's the fact that you have to close in so near the enemy (and have only mediocre maneuverability) that makes them problematic. They're not horrible, they're not really even bad- I would really just call them middling compared to the other options you have. (As a Tyranid player, I am intimately familiar with how far 24" on a platform that moves 6" is- sometimes it's just fine, but a lot of the time it feels very limiting.)
You'r intentionally over-simplifying it. It's not that they are useful because people ignore them. They are useful because they force your opponent to make decisions. Do I eliminate the transport and kill his mobility early since this is an objective mission while taking the hit from his shooting? Or do I eliminate his fire support and hope to push his infantry off objectives later in the game?

See by taking a Lasplas not only am I going to get 1 less squad. I'm also going to make that decision easy. Oh, I can stop his mobility and eliminate a fire support threat. Win/Win. You're weapon load out makes decisions easy in any non-kp scenario. Mine makes it a hard decision that is more likely to cause your opponent to take the wrong shot.

Again, these are just my viewpoints and opinions. You entitled to run your army anyway you want to. You gonna make it to Nova AP?
It just doesn't feel worth it. You're only giving up one GH+Bolterback squad to change all your others over to LasPlas and that gives you drastically more firepower and options. You're just as mobile, can suppress/kill vehicles, and maintain most of the other advantages. If it really looks like you're going to be able to spread to enough objectives that the enemy can't contest the relevant ones, they always have the option of just aiming at one or two of your BolterBacks early- they're not any more resilient than any other transports, after all.

I wish I could make it to NOVA, but travel costs are just not doable for me at this points, especially with moving right now. It's definitely something I'd love to make it to when it becomes a possibility, though. (Also, to be honest, I'm not really sure I'm good enough to give strong competition at an event like that, but that certainly wouldn't stop me from wanting to go.)
Next year then AP. I expect you there!! We can even arrange a game for the Whiskey Challenge :)
Gauntlet has been laid!
That a lot of points to invest in subpar weapons.
Bolterbacks are good when you have 40 points left, and nowhere else to put them.

When you start actively taking bolterbacks, it's kinda obvious you're doing something wrong.
Explain how it's wrong. At least AP is willing to defend his position. As am I. Handwaving that peole are doing something wrong taking a certain unit doesn't make you right unfortunately. As for having 40pts left who the hell normally manages in a tuned list to have a spare 40pts?
Depending on the build, I do think HBBacks can be worth it. Let's assume that you have a normal sized army. You're probably not taking just one, you're probably taking anywhere from 2-4 of them. The 35 point upgrade to LasPlas backs suddenly costs 140 points - literally, as much as a single HBBack + 5-man squad with a combi weapon, or two MM/HF speeders, or etc.

OK, so if we think those points can be used elsewhere in the army, what else could we do? Well, we can transform them into Rhinos. Saves 20 points to be used for something, maybe some HKM, but what now? If you only took 5-man squads with combis in the Razorbacks, you now have (mostly useless) 5-man squads in Rhinos that can't do anything at range and have nothing worthwhile to fire out of a firepoint. We could, of course, change the list around to be full squads in Rhinos with flamer, MM, combi and use the full capacity, or flamer/ML/combi and combat squad to have 5 guys back and 5 with decent weapons move up. Either way, this significantly changes the style of the list - more marines means less armor saturation, and either forces some to be out of vehicles or forces you to cluster your forces in less locations.

Heavy bolters, en masse, are not horrible. Not the best, and lord knows how much I would love to upgrade the HBs to Autocannons or something, but they have their uses. Hitting medium-T monstrous creatures (like Daemon Princes), picking on squads outside of transports (perhaps after you've blown them up), threatening fast, light skimmers like Raiders or Land Speeders - for the points, and in the particular build, they're not bad. Are las/plas better weapons? Arguably, yes, but en masse those upgrade costs start to add up and really matter.
2 replies · active 733 weeks ago
>as much as a single HBBack + 5-man squad with a combi weapon,
So instead of five bad guns, I can get four excellent ones? I'll take that deal, sir.

You shouldn't be taking five-man Tacticals in Rhinos in the first place, so that's a pointless comparison.

Armor saturation is only relevant if our targets are a threat- a Bolterback with a single combi-weapon inside is not.
This I agree with. In a C :S M army bolterbacks have no place.
I do believe the each term he used inplace of 'threaten hordes" was 'plink'

Just... plink away at them

Las/Plas dont 'plink', they 'zaap'. And a plink is way more manly then a zap
3 replies · active 733 weeks ago
Did you just say that Lazers go Zap? Everyone knows they go Pew Pew, which just sounds more cooler than plink (which is the noise I make when my shooting fails.
And Plasmaguns don't Zap either, they Melt, burn away, slag, vapourise. Cause a very burny acidic death of sheer pain.

Bolterbacks aren't very scary, just annoying. Sure, they'll be good against noobs who won't like it when their fabulous foot army of blue muh-reens loses 3 guys a turn (not using mathhammer, just assuming that'd be about right) and then chase after the deadly bolterbacks of cheese and death, but, against someone who knows how to use their army, all your good units (which the bolterbacks just aren't) are going to be under heavy fire since your opponent won't have to worry about target priority, because there isn't a bunch of high-profile targets, instead there's a bunch of bolterbacks. I've seen stormbolters on rhinos do more damage than heavy bolters over the course of the game.
So you're saying you'd ignore troop units in an objective mission (2/3 of games) because they're in Bolterbacks? That doesn't strike me as a winning proposition....
Isn't the main advantage of the TLHB 'back the fact that you just saved your self enough points to buy a rhino?

Looking at how killy it can be is looking at the wrong thing. No one is going to rave about how uber the TLHB is, but it is cheap, allowing you to buy more uber somewhere else. Over four squads you could save 140 points.

That's a AutoLas Predator, A 4x missile Dev Squad, another combat squad in a rhino or HBRB, or a chaplain, or a librarian, or a DakkaDread... The list goes on.
2 replies · active 733 weeks ago
I think that is a good point.

5 ML Fangs + Leader = 140

Is LasPlas giving you something krak doesn't - yes. ap2 is essential when needed - eg, TEq.
But is that worth 5 APC popping shots, and then 4 HB shots into the passengers.
Hmmm, Idk.

Those five ML pumping out frags and those 12 HB shots could wreck the smaller bugs.

Swings and roundabouts?
But instead of buying a Bolterback, you could buy a Rhino instead and save yourself give more points as well as get to use that special weapon you're toting around. If you aren't looking for killing power, isn't the Rhino just better in that respect?
Quite possibly SandR. But still.

I think there is something to be said for a low risk transport as opposed to a high risk one. If you only need to move five guys around then 5 points for a TLHB may not be a terrible idea.

I'm not convinced they're a write off. Although I am happy to agree that they're not good. Units don't need to be good to make an army work well.
Of course I disagree!

Plink away at squads? For sure! You're hitting reliably, and have decent strength. You average just under 2 wounds per round on T4 models before saves with a HBback. Not insignificant. Also, it can go after MCs decently. Lets look at it shooting MEq vs the ubiquitous las/pls. Las plas is 75 pts vs 40. Virtually a 2 to 1 rate. So, 6 HB shots or, at best 3 shots? Lets run the math:

2 HBbacks do 3.55 wounds before saves, or 1 dead MEq
Single las plas at 12" range assuming it didn't move does 2.03 wounds. If the MEq is in cover (which it should be!), that's just 1 dead MEq.

HUZZAH! They are identical in output even with the las/plas in an ideal position. At >24" range, the HBback is obviously better at killing infantry as it functions the same and the las/plas is killing about 1 model every 4 turns if they are in cover...
2 replies · active 733 weeks ago
The cheapness can't be underestimated. Taking full tac squads and combat squadding them and putting 4 bolter guys and a flamer in the vehicle and the sarge and ML or lascannon in the backfield in cover is a SOLID tactic. For 210 pts you have good anti-infantry and a ML for vehicles at range. Or go up to 220 for the lascannon.
Care to do a shooty-math comparison between the squad with the HBack, and the squad with the Rhino+SB?

I'm interested to see how that works out. SB+boltgun vs. troops + no need to disembark for melta?
didn't Stelek just get 2nd at the Nova with a HB razorback spam list though?
2 replies · active 708 weeks ago
Roland Durendal's avatar

Roland Durendal · 708 weeks ago

No he didn't get second. He got 1st place in the third tier / bracket. Overall he got like 7th (that's factoring in Competitive and Painting). He went 3-1 on day 1 and 4-0 on day 2.
He also used "well I had a bad list that wasn't optimized" as an excuse for not winning about every second breath.
I think I'm coming around to the idea of having bolterbacks in certain lists where ranged AT is covered sufficiently elsewhere.
4 replies · active 708 weeks ago
*shrug* I'm still of the opinion that the only time it might be worthwhile is if you have a small number of points to spare and no other good places to spend them, which will be pretty rare. BA's one is too expensive and doesn't mesh with what they do (especially since you can get the HF version for the same cost). SW... _maybe_, since they have less reason to take Riflemen and Dakka Preds. SM... eh, probably not. Between HQ, EL, FA, and HS, you really shouldn't be lacking for good firepower units to take. BT and DA have absolutely no excuse for ever taking one.
Templar ones are 70 pts for a Bolterback, so yeah, they shouldn't be used.
But even the tlLC is 90 pts, 15 more than the equivalent C :S M version, and lets not mention the LasPlas....

Unless you are playing at, imo, too high a points value, >2K, then you have no reason, in a Templars list, to pad out your list with them, if you are wanting to squeeze the most from your list.

The 50 pts for the DA Bolterback is not so bad, but as DA have the nicer 35pt Rhino, that is an extra 10 pts over the C :S M version, and from a Dex that is generally already paying top rate for their goodies.

The DA Lasback costs 80pts, which is only 5 pts more than C :S M. But I am wondering, how many C :S M would take the tlLC-back, even if the LasPlas was not in the Codex?

It is fairly modest firepower for the investment.

The only 'real' Razorback choices, imo, are the tlHF version for BA, and the LasPlas for BA and the other Dexes who can.

It would have been cool if they had actually made tlHF not a joke for non-BA Dexes, and allowed them to fire when moving 12"
Otherwise, why on earth would you take them?
TLAC is fine for BA also, because of the aggressive nature of the army and the 12" move-and-shoot.

Even if the TLHF was just 40pts for SW/SM, I still don't think it would be worth it (although it would at least be worth considering, as opposed to now.) Giving it Fast or pseudo-Fast (like the old Immo) would be a bit much, though- that's just adding upgrades for the sake of upgrades.

TLLC... well, I'm sure we all know the issues it has now. I seem to recall Stelek made a BT list that basically spammed those (with PotMS) and min-size LasPlas squads, but I dunno whether it was actually viable or not.
I was considering using them in a BA list, actually. In said list, I didn't have enough points for TLAC or Las/plas, and TLHF wasn't a good fit for the rest of the list (shooty Mech).

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