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Wednesday, March 23, 2011

Crowe + Purifier: List Analysis Options


Purifier rage is still going on and really, who can blame them? For a measly four points more over a normal Grey Knight you get Ld9 (huge if the leader dies for psychic tests), 2A, Fearless and Cleansing flame instead of Warp Quake. This includes having access to cheaper combat weapons (2 point halberds!?) and two special weapons per five guys. In the end they are the ultimate generalist but die just like any other Marine. Great for an Elite unit but as a Troop? Well they kick ass so yes but it comes at a cost. Crowe. He makes Purifiers Troops but he is rather terrible. In an army filled with force weapons, he rends on a 4+. In an army filled with characters, he stands alone. Get the picture? In the end Crowe simply hides behind Rhinos/in cover and does what he can. In KP missions he really does hide whilst in objective based missions he can be used as a distraction or if you can get him into your opponent's backline, beat up on backline units. Call this the Purifier tax and even with that, they are still an awesome Troop. What then do we support them with? Well there are a lot of options.

First off I'm going to assume this as a base for our Purifiers:

8x Purifiers w/4x Halberds, 2x Psycannon, 2x Hammer, Rhino (270)

We can add more members and halberds + some master-crafting if we wish but since we aren't making the Purifiers scoring via Grand Strategy (which works best when you can combat squad), this is a really good 'all-round' unit whilst not breaking the bank too much.

Dreadnoughts (both Venerable and non)

These would obviously be in the psyfledread format with 2x twin-linked autocannons + psybolts. For a bunch of S8 shots at range, yes please. This helps support the midfield nature of Purifiers and adds some ranged punch to any Grey Knight army. The Venerables are quite expensive at 195 points a pop but with Fortitude + Cover + Venerable status, can ignore ~80%+ of damage results (someone run the math please?). That's pretty friggin awesome. However, is a 6 Dread + Purifier army really scary? The Purifiers in midfield are great but have weaknesses in combat which the Dreads in psyfle form don't help negate. With the Purifiers being our only bodies then...hmmm. Good list but lacks something I feel. That being said, taking some psyfledreads is still a great option for a Purifier based army.

Psyfledreads aren't the only choice either. MM or psybolt Asscannon Dreads with a DCCW are both good options which are much more up close and personal. This can really provide the solid punch Purifiers sometimes need in combat and what better way than to provide it on an AV12 platform with S10 attacks? At the same time not taking Psyfledreads means your army is limited in range so you need to balance these options.

Dreadknights

With the change to T6/5++ I think these guys aren't getting the love they deserve. With scout they really are fearsome but that requires a Grand Master which we may not have points for when our Troops are so expensive. That being said, even without Scout Dreadknights are still very impressive in combat and with a personal teleporter + heavy incinerator, they can move around quickly and really threaten infantry on the go (and since we have lots of psycannons elsewhere, this is important). Taking Dreadknights as combat support for the Purifiers might be a good idea and still allows us to grab psyfledreads through Venerables.

Paladins

Another much maligned unit with the weakness against S8+ weapons. That being said, these guys pack a punch and can really stabilise an army in midfield with good combat and excellent shooting on the go (2x master crafted psycannons? done). They are however expensive and still cry against TH/SS Terminators much like Purifiers (mind you, what doesn't?). These guys are up for consideration if we want to strengthen the combat potential of the list but due to their price, we will likely only be able to take one.

Vindicare Assasin

He has range, he has great utility and anti-tank ability (4D6 pen and hits on 2+ w/4+ re-roll? reliable). Problem is he is very vulnerable so he'd need to hijack a Rhino and sacrifice a turn of shooting and really have some top-hatch fun. Certainly an option to increase the ranged potential of a Purifier based list but is quite pricey for a single model that doesn't really add to the army as a whole (unlike Librarians or Grand Masters).

Librarian

Speaking of which....Librarians are a great option, if you can find a place for him. He either has to walk on foot with a squad, run behind Rhinos or jack a Stormraven. That being said he really benefits the list with Shrouding + Sanctuary improving the midfield presence Purifiers have whilst summoning can be an excellent addition with Dreadknights or more simple mobility in general.


Grand Master

We don't need Grand Strategy as much with a Purifier based list as we've already got some awesome Troops. That being said being able to make Paladins, Dreadknights, Dreadnoughts, Interceptors or Purgation squads as scoring is a huge bonus and importantly, we can hand out scout to units like Interceptors and Dreadknights (shunt punch!). All that being said I think the Grand Master loses out here to the Librarian unless you're taking Dreadknights to actively use scouting with his other options being simply bonus utility.

Stormravens

An excellent anti-infantry option with psybolts + associated weapon upgrades which offer a great place to stick Crowe and add some mobility. General issue here is with some many stormbolters and psycannons you often don't need extra anti-infantry in a Grey Knight army. However, it is mobile and does pack some anti-tank and the plethora of anti-infantry it brings frees up your psycannons to focus on tanks and high Toughness targets. Expensive as a gunboat but certainly a support option. You could ferry some MM Dreads along or Purifiers as an active assault unit though they are much better as a midfield unit IMO.

Inquisitors + Henchmen

Coteaz (not him again!) is a cheap option which can combine Purifiers and Henchmen as Troops. This can help take the pressure off Purifiers to be the scoring and firepower of a list but I really feel a Coteaz list with Purifiers as Elites works better. If you're not using at least four Purifier squads you probably should consider running them as Elites regardless and only two Troop slots for henchmen (unless of course Coteaz does allow infinite henchTroops then there are quite a few options here) isn't really going to lend much support to the Purifiers. You could however take some Monkeymobiles or MSU acolyte RBacks (with ranged guns like LasPlas) for some backfield scoring.

Otherwise a single Inquisitor + Henchmen squad is unfortunately not going to do much though they could potentially load themselves in a Stormraven for some semi-decent combat prowess (i.e. Crusaders + Death Cult Assasins). The Inquisitor itself also offers up some excellent utility options such as psychic communion and special wargear.

Grey Knight Strike Squads

You'd have to think long and hard before you take these guys in a Purifier list. They are after all 'worse' for all intents and purposes and you've paid a hefty tax to get them as Troops. That being said, being able to get reliable scoring and more MEQ bodies on that table which aren't Purifiers does have its merits. Warp Quake is as well a very under-rated utility spell against certain armies. However, I'd rather just spend more points on Purifiers. 295 gets you a nice 10-man Strike squad whilst 270 gets you the 'cookie-cutter' gold standard of Purifiers. Two less bodies and minorly less shooting output (no S5 stormbolters) but much better in combat.

Interceptor Squads

These guys are really only a viable option IMO with the Grand Master to make them scoring or give them scout. What Interceptors bring to the table is a little mobility without needing Rhinos/Razorbacks and the 30" shunt is great utility early or late game. Personally, even with a Grand Master (I'd rather make Dreadknights scout/scoring), they are too expensive. The same price as  Purifier with a Halberd with the same statline as basic Grey Knight? Eh, leave them for other lists I think and get your mobility through Rhinos, Stormravens or summoning.

Purgation Squads

I'd use these squads in conjunction with Venerable psyfledreads to ensure the list still has ranged firepower. You then use the Purgation squads almost as an aggressive screen for the Purifiers. Whilst they aren't scoring or good in combat, four special weapons at five men means they can create really good duality (two psycannons + two incinerators) and break up enemy advances in Rhinos (whilst top-hatching). This means your Purifiers aren't going to overextend themselves and have a layer of Grey Knight + mech protection. Astral aim is cute as well meaning you can create a wall of Rhinos and still have the Purgation squads shoot for an extra defensive setup in midfield.

Summary

The biggest issue with a Crowe list is overcoming the 150 point tax and filling out the list around the Purifiers. They are a great unit but being particularly good at most things and scoring makes them a huge target. Remember, they are only Marine statlines in terms of survivability in the end. For that reason anything which takes firepower away from them or increases their survivability is good. Other Troops (or troop movements) are really attractive options as well to ensure the Purifiers are not the only scoring options.

I know I haven't covered all the options available to a Purifier army list but these are the best ones IMO. You can make a lot of lists using a combination of the units above and I'll go through some of them over the coming days (we all hate to use him but Crowe will see play-time!). Just to get the ball rolling though what unit combinations would you like to see a workable list for? My personal favorites are Psyfledreads + Pally + Libby and a Crowe + Coteaz list (even though I only get two 2 Hench Troops).

Comments (19)

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Crowe's just a waste.
Call me a cynic, but I don't see a reason for dedicated anti-horde when your army has access to 5 point super flamers, stormbolters on everybody, terminators as troops, holocaust, and 5 point dudes with bolters.

It's nice to deal lots of automatic wounds on hordes, yes, but why did the horde survive your shooting phase and the following combat?
1 reply · active 677 weeks ago
purifiers are not only dedicated anti-horde. They are the best GK based combat unit (cheaper than Terminators or Paladins, doesn't require a Land Raider or Storm Raven as transport.

Probably you need cleansing flame because that horde will surely outnumber you 4 to one at least, and you don't have enough stormbolters/psycannons/flamers to kill them before enough of them reach you, especially if they have cover while they footslog across the board.
Good article, similar thoughts to my blog post yesterday. I thought of the complications and bottlenecks that Crowe creates and what units in elites/HS/FA compliment the Purifiers.

My conclusion is you don't want to run a 2nd HQ. You do want to run 5 dreads, at least 3 being HS Psyfle. How you load out the other two venerables will come down to playtesting. MM/DF will be ideal for midfield assistance, but honestly I'm not 100% sold on Purifiers needing help in the midfield. But they might and I won't know until I playtest a bunch. The other option is more psyfle, which may be good too, but it's an expensive package.

One thing you didn't consider is a Techmarine. when you're rolling with 5 dreads in your backfield, a Techmarine could be excellent. Your dreads will be hard to kill, but they will get immobilized and weapon destroyed all over the place and he cures that. Secondly, he can give venerables in cover an insane 3++ cover save, which is some nutty math for ignoring firepower. Plus he can be quite shooty himself. Not saying it's a good option, but it's worth at least a closer look, don't you think?
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
Yes the Techie can be a solid option, particularly if you take some more backfield oriented scorers. Ld8 does hurt his reconstruction ability though but conversion beamer, fortify, skulls and grenades are also all good reasons to take one or two.
mathhammer's avatar

mathhammer · 732 weeks ago

my purifier list runs a bit different:

10x Purifiers w/4x Halberds, 1x Hammer,4x Psycannon, Razorback + psycannon

5 purifiers with the 4 psycannons combat squad and find a piece of terrain and lay fire down field.

5 purifiers (hammer+halbreads) mount up and head into the opponent.

In a pure purifier list, I can get 15 purifiers providing fire support

and 30 purifiers 6 razor backs heading down field. Now I don't

think a pure list is the best but it's an example of what you can do.

It's also 6 troop choices and 1 HQ choice.
list i rly wants to try sometimes soon

crowe
4x 6x purifer, 2x psycanon, 2x halberd, 2x hammer, rhino
5x purifer, 2x psycanon, 2x halberd, hammer, rhino
2x dred, 2x TLAC, psybolt
for 1500 got spare 19pts for mastercrafted weapons somewhere or so. at this points, this list looks kinda scary to me.
I think the automatic wounds on 4+ before combat begins is too good to pass up whether its against hordes or meq in general. I don't wanna give up on Crowe just yet but I hope when 6th edition comes out they wil get rid of this None IC silliness I mean marine IC's are spose to support your army but not be your army like other codex HQ's
I was wondering why you say a libby has to jack a storm raven with the servo skull spam available to grey knights the Libby with an attached squad of anything in termie armor or a interceptor squad can ds and then use summon as the rule stays it " can be used at the beginning of the movement phase" which imo means it can be used at the beginning but then can be used any time after that as long as its in the movement phase, so why not summon summon something like a Purifier squad to mid field and lay down some heavy fire or to screen the libby sqaud with their cleansing flame along with the libby and his attached squad. also I wonder why none is addressing the fact that a lot of grey knights units with attached ic wont be "sweeping advancing" because of their termie armor.
2 replies · active 732 weeks ago
edit
"Summon rule states"
sorry spell check didn't catch it
Pretty sure it's implied summoning is beginning of the Libbies movement and if it's not clear would be FAQ'd for it to be so. Being able to DS and then summon would be very powerful.

That being said with no psychic communion, reserving your Libby is pretty risky and Shrouding is really useful those first couple of turns as you advance into midfield. I'd rather have him start on the board in some form of transport, with a squad and running around like a nutter.
Sir_Prometheus's avatar

Sir_Prometheus · 732 weeks ago

Why did you never mention Land Raiders? I'm specifically thinking of your comments on Librarians: ". He either has to walk on foot with a squad, run behind Rhinos or jack a Stormraven."

Librarian can go in an LR. For that matter, a Libby + full purifier squad can fit in a redeemer just fine.....and they have the same 20" charge range storm raven does. LRs and SRs serve much the same purpose, they just work best in slightly different situations. Myself, I plan to take both, to put "pressure" on the enemy, make them choose what to shoot (and hopefully fail at both!).
1 reply · active 732 weeks ago
Because one Raider is meh and if you're taking two + Purifiers, well you've used a lot of points. What then are you going to put in the Land Raiders to justify their point cost as a transport? Stormravens can get away with it as they have a fair amount of firepower (but are still a bit overcosted) but not so much Raiders, even the Crusader.
I'm not convinced Vindicares ought to go in Transports - a Rhino is much easier to get LoS to than a single infantry model and much easier to shake/stun/wreck. Depending on Terrain you should be able to hide the Vindicare from a lot of your opponents firepower while still picking off a vehicle every other turn.
Roland Durendal's avatar

Roland Durendal · 732 weeks ago

Good shit Kirb and I had the same thoughts when building my initial Crowe rush list. Something I realize now in hindsight (after dropping the idea of a Crowe list) which breathes some life back into possibly taking him again is the idea of running him on foot behind the Rhnio/Rback wall. It actually took changing my list to the current incarnation of Libby/GM (as opposed to the earlier Libby/Crowe) for me to brainstorm ideas on how to move/protect my HQ's and first thought was the "Duh! Run them behind the mobile steel coffin cover!" Granted it means that your vehicle wall is moving potentially slower than you'd like, but with a Libby nearby casting Shrouding every chance he gets, odds are they'll be fairly survivable.

Though in my initial list I ran 2X Interceptor squads, which would be swapped out now for a 4th Purifier squad and maybe a Psyraven for fire support / IC transport.
The BS 5 MM Vendreads do cover that 'true-antitank' role quite nicely and if you are footslogging a libby with a pally / termie squad these guys can roll together behind the rhinos to take advantage of shrouding getting you that 3+ cover save.
Since you DID ask.

Odds of Dred vs Ven Dred shaken/stunned

Fortitude Percentages (for a single psychic test):

Chance of successfully using Fortitude: 88.9%

Chance of outright failing Fortitude (either an 11 or 12): 8.33%

Chance of making situation worse (a 12 followed by 5 or 6): 0.93%

Chance of rolling Double 1’s and still shooting fully (ie: Immobilized): 0.46% (same odds for weapon destroyed instead)

Chance of rolling double 1’s and re-shaking/stunning self: 0.93%

Dreadnought

Chance of Shaken or Stunned for a single glancing hit: 66.7%

Chance of Shaken or Stunned for a single AP1 glancing hit: 50%

Chance of Shaken or Stunned for a single penetrating hit: 33.3%

Chance of Shaken or Stunned for a single AP1 penetrating hit: 16.7%

Venerable Dreadnought

Chance of Shaken or Stunned for a single glancing hit: 88.9%

Chance of Shaken or Stunned for a single AP1 glancing hit: 75%

Chance of Shaken or Stunned for a single penetrating hit: 55.5%

Chance of Shaken or Stunned for a single AP1 penetrating hit: 30.55%
One thing I also haven't noticed until it was pointed out to me today...reinforced Aegis. Effective -4Ld on any offensive psychic powers around Dreads is very very nice psychic defense if you don't have a Libby (and combined with a Libby).
1 reply · active 667 weeks ago
Also, something someone mentioned to me is that its a modifier. Meaning that put together with Grey Knight's -1 base it improves to -5. I have never played it that way but I'm going to check into it.

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