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Tuesday, March 29, 2011

Draigozilla - Another look?


The title probably gives you already a really big hint as to what this post is about... But let me start by telling you why I'm doing a post on Draigo in the first place: I was rather underwhelmed with the 2 guest articles on 'Draigowing' if I'm honest. Take 1 felt like a regular list with Paladins shoehorned into it while take 2 had some odd contradictions in it. No offense and that's just my opinion. Anyways, I decided I could make a Draigo list while going a bit more into detail or at least with a more clear idea behind it.

The basis is simple: You start with Draigo, or else you're not making a Draigo army now are you? I also assume that we want at least 2 Paladin units in it. The Paladins, what kind of setup? Let's go with the standard setup: 2 MC'ed Psycannons and optimal wound allocation as it's rather easy to obtain.

Now let's look closer at the Paladins and what their defense statline means. Basicly they are Terminators with 2 wounds, for 15 points more. This means they are a lot more survivable against small arms fire compared to Terminators. Couple with this the wound allocation and it's even better as it takes longer on average to kill any models. Less damage output though right, as you have less models in comparison? Not really; you get 2 psycannons per 5 man and can MC them. In CC you're having WS5 which is pretty sweet. In summary: They are rather survivable to small arms fire when comparing them to Termies (or regular GK's/purifiers, same deal).

Now in list terms what does this mean? My instinct tells me that when I add normal GK's and Rhinos/Psyflemen that the advantage I get by taking Paladins disappears. How's that? Because GK's die to small arms, Rhinos to S6+ weaponry and Psyflemen to S7+ (Autocannons and Missiles for example). What do we get when we include those in a list with Paladins? That often means you don't really get to use the comparative advantage Paladins gives you, because Paladins die to S8, especially when it ignores their 2+ save. Yeah you can get coversaves, but it's still a weakness and Librarians have their own problems. (psychic power, 6" range, rather costly when also taking Draigo) This makes the target priority even easier for your opponent: Throw the S8+ at the Paladins and the rest at your Rhinos/GK's.

Next thing to look at is Draigo: My gawd, 275 points for a model with a 12" threat range unless you take a 200+ transport for him? Pfff... Well as told I can't drop him or else this post would make no sense. Let's see.... We can stick him in a squad so he can catch some S8+ fire I guess. Yeah that doesn't sound all bad. But hey wait! We only got 1 Draigo so our other squads can't use this awesome 'tank' ability of his. This feels rather ineffective too. What can we do about this? Karamazov baby, yes really. He gives us the ability to catch some lasscannons and missiles (omnomnom) for a 2nd squad. That's not it though: He also solves our Leadership problem while adding a MM and some combat potential in the process. Did we have a Leadership problem? Yes, when you're running with units costing more than 200 points while not being Fearless or having a re-roll then you are vulnerable to especially Tank Shocks. The more when not having access to meltas in your squads. (it makes oppenents less willing to try it).

So we have this baseline:

DRAIGO!!!! 275
Karamazov 200
5 Paladins; 2 MC psycannons 325
5 Paladins; 2 MC Psycannons 325
Total: 1125

1125?! No way we're gonna make a good army out of this. Ah well, let me optimise it at least or maybe going for a kind of theme then. Let's see, if you followed my above reasoning I think it's clear that I don't want any 'soft' targets in the list. No Psyflemen then? Indeed, no Psyflemen. Venerable Dreads then? Yes, those pretty much refuse to die to non-Ap1 weaponry (which threatens your Pallies too), so I'll take them. Setup? Psyfleman setup as I want to have a chance against Eldar and DE please. Let's take 2 of those, should be enough.
So we're adding:

Venerable Dreadnought; psyfleman 195
Venerable Dreadnought; psyfleman 195
Total: 1515

485 points left and we have 2 scoring-shooting-midfield-minideathstars and 2 hard to kill suppression platforms. Alright, could have been worse. I would like to just add more targets now and if you been paying attention (or read the title) then you understand what I'm adding now: Dreadknights. For 130 points a piece their defensive statline is pretty impressive and they don't give a fuck about things like Missiles and Autocannons either, just like the rest of the list. What are they gonna do? Either just move up or you can deepstrike them in. (You'll be doing that in DoW missions most of the time for example) And then? They punch stuff, duh.
We get to choose between 3x naked Dreadknight or 2x Teleporter Dreadknight... I'm saying 3x Naked at the moment as I rate more targets a little higher here, but I'm not sure. Then we're having some points left, 95 to be precise. Either we add weapons to the Dreadknights or we can add 1 solo Paladin and spend the leftover points for some more weapons/mastercraftings on the Paladin squads. I'll be going with 1 solo Paladin which might be able to claim an objective. This way you might be less forced to use Draigo his Strat to make more units scoring and thus you can give Dreadknights scout or something like that. (yes Teleporter + scout might be nice, but it's not a reason to choose for teleporter DK's alone as it doesn't work against every army and neither when you go 2nd)

So final list:

Draigo 275
Karamazov 200
5 Paladins; 2 MC psycannons 325
5 Paladins; 2 MC Psycannons 325
Palladin; 55
Venerable Dreadnought; psyfleman 195
Venerable Dreadnought; psyfleman 195
Dreadknight 130
Dreadknight 130
Dreadknight 130
Total: 1960 points

Spend those 40 points in whatever way you want; I'm tempted to go for a Pimpcane in both Paladin squads personally, but mastercrafting weapons is an option as well. Alternatively: drop the Mastercraftings on the psycannons and get a 2nd solo Paladin.

Well there you have it, my take on Draigo. I'm not claiming it's overly competitive (pretty sure it's not ;) ), but at least this list does something else besides just being an inferior list compared to non-Draigo lists. I hope you took enough Ap2 with ya (:

Thoughts?

Comments (46)

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Draigo lists are also going to have some terrible matchups (like Dark Eldar) so it's like many of the 'pure' Elite as Troops lists where they are awesome and fun but are going to have serious issues on the tabletop (like Nipplewing).

Just want that clear for everyone who keeps reading these Draigo posts lol (will they ever end...?).
Why is everyone having such a hardon for venerable psyfledreads? You're not making use of the BS 5 (not much, anyways), nor of its WS 5, and if you play right by giving your opponent more pressing issues to deal with, you're probably not going to use the damage reroll much either.

Imo, use regular psyfledreads, and use your vens as MM platforms. You have very few melta platforms in this army, and this is by far one of the better ones. Sucks that you don't have access to drop pods, but you can always use a SR or be summoned by a libby (warp stabilisers is just 5 pts anyways).
16 replies · active 731 weeks ago
Considering that the Psycovens have Fortitude and the damage rerole, they are very hard to kill and/or surpress at range, and to get into combat you'd have to go thought the Paladins. So they are very hard to deal with with any efficiency, meaning every turn they can lay down their fire fairly reliably, which is something this list needs.
All true points clayman but the main reason for using Ven Psyfles is you are using your Heavy slots for something else. I.e. Dreadknights or Purgation squads and if you still want ranged firepower, you pay to 60 point tax for a super survivable dread.
Questions is: do you really even need either of those units? Psycannons are found en masse throughout the book, and DKs while fun aren't really needed in an army already full of psychoCCkillas. Maybe if the heavy psycannon wasn't utter fail...
True enough kirby, i hadn't considered the switch between Heavy and elites slots. I'm not sure if they'd have the same place in another , more mainstream, GK's list though asyour opponent can simply ignore them in favour of a more efficient targets whereas in this one they can't. It's also a steep tax, especialy when you've got more than one.
That sorta plays against them in a way, since because they are so damned hard to kill, I personnally would simply ignore them until I had dealt with everything else. Yes, 4 S8 shots per dread is nasty, but it's not the end of the world, and at 195 pts, it's pretty frikking expansive when you can get more or less the same thing for cheaper via regular psyflemen.
I agree, and i would use regular dreads over venerables as well. My point is that you can't stop anything else in the list short of killing it. With fortitude this becomes mostly true for Dreads as well, unfortanatly regular dreads aren't particalarly hard to kill compared to the rest of the list whereas vens are.
Well there's going to be those times where your opponent rolls two 5s.

Also, those things HATE meltas.
I see what you mean. I guess the "kill me or f*** off!" has some merit, but the cost of achieving this state across the list is too high in my opinion. To each his own I suppose.
Agree, I would drop both vendreads, get 3 psyflemen in HS, and then get more troops.

Terms if you want.
Did you (Desc440) even read the article, or did you just skip the text and went straight to the list? I think I explained why I'm putting Venerable Dreads and Dreadknights in it.

If you include regular Psyflemen in such a list, they will die to Autocannons and Missiles; not good. Including regular Termies? They die to bolters or other stuff rather easily.

I think that covers all of these replies. And 4 highly accurate and mobile S8 shots a turn which you ignore? I see, interesting.
I read the whole thing, thank you very much. Did you even read what I thought was wrong with your reasoning, or did you just skip directly to a reply?

Yes I'm well aware that ven psyflemen are nigh unkillable. No I still don't think that's worth 5 pts shy of 200 pts.

Yes I'm aware of the gimmick you went with. No I don't think it's a good gimmick. Not when you have a 12 inch assault radius and your anti-vehicular fire power consists of 16 S7 rending shots and 8 S8 shots. Oh and one MM. Whoopdideedoo!
Auretious Taak's avatar

Auretious Taak · 731 weeks ago

Through the paladins? What the Paladins are bubble wrapping the Venerable Dreads? I think not, not with those numbers. It's easy to out manouvre or to just fly/jump straight over the top and get into combat/melta range that way or use a drop pod to melta them, or, you know, ignore the Dreads and melta the paladins because for every 3 wounds, 2 of those expensive Paladins are dead. no real armour threats mean the scorers can be tackled that way. The Dread Knights naked are golden, but the list doesn't have the numbers to definitively state that the Paladins MUST BE GONE THROUGH to get at the juicier stuff behind.
Alright, melta the Paladins you say? Did you read the article? Most stuff has 2 meltas; high chance of 1 missing or not wounding: allocate on Draigo or Karamazov. Units with 3 meltas? Fair enough; 1 on Kara/Draigo and 1 on a Paladin, making you lose at most 1.

Really read before you post man; saying 2 Paladins die each time you point melta at it is just not true.
Auretious Taak's avatar

Auretious Taak · 731 weeks ago

You're going squad by squad, not factoring alpha strikes and other far longer ranged weapons then the melta which do the same thing torrented as my statement which was rather broad, combined fire in a turn or any of a bazillion other factors. Really, think before you post man; saying 'Did you read the article?' when you missed the point I was ACTUALLY making (hint, it has ALL CAPS) really paints you as a bit dense.
Yes I'm going squad by squad, are you firing all your units at once to me? That's illegal man :P You see the point I'm trying to make? You can't kill a lot of Paladins in the beginning because quite some shots will bounce of on Kara or Draigo.

But hey I'm not arguing it's not a weakness, remember: I'm trying to make Draigo + Paladin list work here, I'm not claiming it's a competitive idea! You can provide a more competitive 2k Draigo list, go ahead.
Since the list is small and slow i was assuming it would deploy close together, this is reasonable? So any unit attempting one of the assaults you suggest means they will almost certanly be isolated from the rest of their army, meaning they would suffer a counter from 2 paladin squads and 3 DK's. The only way to avoid this is to engage the parts of the army that are liable to counter (which i assume would be most of it), and this is playing directly into its hands.

"3 wounds, 2 dead", i'm afraid to ask if you understand the concept of wound alocation?

Perhaps "must be gone through" was an tad of an overstatement but my point is still valid.
KingCronan's avatar

KingCronan · 731 weeks ago

i like how this list keeps with the small elite army theme, i like it a lot better than the other lists. I'm just concerned having so few scoring units. I would feel a lot better with 15 paladins in the army with the occasional solo holding objectives but i don't now where i would make cuts to accommodate that. i would drop the venerable dreds to regular ones but then i would not have dreadknights. Quite a pickle...
3 replies · active 731 weeks ago
"I'm just concerned having so few scoring units."

Draigo has The Grand Strategy, so that alleviates the issue somewhat.
Recall that Draigo has Grand Strategy, meaning he can give up to three units scoring capabilities when needed. That can and will be some combination of Dreadknights and/or Ven Dreads, depending on if you need close range or backfield objective captures.
KingCronan's avatar

KingCronan · 731 weeks ago

ah yes i always forget that he has grand strategy in addition to making paladins troops. (almost like has double the strategies!) that is better i guess, just hope you dont roll a 1 n that D3 lol
Skcuzzlebumm's avatar

Skcuzzlebumm · 731 weeks ago

Surely if you are doing Draigowing-zilla whatever then why not just suck it up and go the whole OTT hog?

Draigo = 275
Karamazov = 200
Vindicare = 145

10 Paladins all with Psybolt Ammo; 1 = Apothecary with Storm Bolter & Master-crafted Hammer. 2 = Master-crafted Psycannon & Brotherhood Banner. 3 = Master-crafted Psycannon & Master-crafted Hammer. 4 = Master-crafted Psycannon & Halberd. 5 = Master-crafted Psycannon & Sword. 6 = Storm Bolter & Warding Stave. 7 = Storm Bolter & Master-crafted Hammer. 8 = Storm Bolter & Falchions. 9 = Storm Bolter & Halberd. 10 = Storm Bolter & Sword = 815

X3 Paladins = 55ea
X3 Dreadnoughts with 2 Twin-linked Autocannons & Psybolt Ammo = 135ea

TOTAL = 2000

As mentioned why worry about Dreadknights for combat punch and therefore ramping up the cost of the dreads by having to use venerables when you have a death star that is going to scare most armies in combat?
2 replies · active 731 weeks ago
Auretious Taak's avatar

Auretious Taak · 731 weeks ago

You know how you'll be facing razor-spam lists, and melta spam right? All of the firepower utterly destroys this so called death star before you reach combat. With no armour to speak of, and no plasma syphon to make plasma have no effect on the Paladins, las/plas spam is going to rape you a new one. Melta and Lascannons Instant death the paladins and a 5++ is nothing against that sort of firepower. Sure, shove Draigo in there, he has a 3++ so can absorb some of the firepower, but with 3 pieces of armour and the ability to hurt 4 pieces of your opponents armour at long range only reliably, it allows your opponent to torrent you into nothingness and then it's just mop up of small individuals...
Skcuzzlebumm's avatar

Skcuzzlebumm · 731 weeks ago

I know. I don't care. Like I said its all OTT.
Thanks for the post.

A couple of thoughts...not a critique on your list, just some ...thoughts.

Limited options;
I ran a dragio list the other day, just to see what it could do. Even had an apothecary in there, and lots of other goodies...it was amazing.
I got VERY lucky, and managed to pull an annihilation mission, and due to terrain and other factors managed to wipe my opponent.

Overall, the lack of units (scoring or otherwise) makes this kind of list challenging to play, and heavily depends on not having a lot of objectives. I know you never said it was an event winner, and this point is surely obvious to many....but perhaps not to all.

It was however, a ton of fun to play...

Pallies/Termies + psy = CC goodness.
You mention the differences between termies(and pallies) and other troops, and even mention "In CC you're having WS5 which is pretty sweet." Here is a really important point, that many don't seem to mention.
When you take a psycanon with a normal GK, it replaces their storm bolter AND their CC weapon.
When you take a psycannon with a termie/pally it replaces their storm bolter ONLY.

That means when you take Psycannons for normal infantry, you are losing power weapon attacks in CC.
(do you lose one attack as well? I have no clue).
However, you don't lose any power weapon attacks (or the option to attack at I6 with an upgrade) with termies and pallies.
This is a subtle, but very valuable difference. A huge deal...I don't know, but I know for me, it ment I had to have a bit better planning on where I handed out psy cannons on my non termie troops.
Add in the fact that termies/pallies are relentless, and you have maybe more shots then you would have with the strike squads...

DK's...
Yes, add a heavy incinerator. Its very handy for those moments when you might run into a horde, or when there are pesky snipes in cover, or those really annoying DE jet bikes zipping around getting 3++ cover saves. Place template, and say "dodge this"....

2000 points?
So, in one fell swoop everyone is making all 2k lists now? I get it, its not easy making 1500/1750 GK lists...its even worse with dragio (I did it, it was silly)....but most FLGS games are not 2k...they are 1500. Ok, sure, maybe for this article its fine...I dunno.
But can you guys kind of keep the lower point totals in mind...game play may change due to GK, but game size wont...

thanks for the post. I look forward to more of your thoughts and ideas, especially once you start sharing ideas on how nids can play against these guys....(I am a NID and GK player as well). I have a few thoughts after my first nid games, but need more testing.
(it was pathetic....I let the other player quit after a few turns).
1 reply · active 731 weeks ago
About Termies keeping their NFW compared to regular GKSS: Yes, but you have twice as much men with GKSS so that doesn't really matter much. Comparing a 10 man GKSS with a 5 man Termie: then the Termie squad is a bit more dangerous in CC as you'll be having more base attacks and I6 weapons + Hammers, which the GKSS have to pay for. They don't shoot nearly as hard of course, as the GKSS has got way more stormbolters.

About the 2000 points: That's simply because this concept is even worse at 1750 or even 1500... But I'll be posting 1500/1750 stuff too. We play 1700/1750 mostly here so my battlereports will be that many points too (:
spaguatyrine's avatar

spaguatyrine · 731 weeks ago

Not a bad list, but have on of the dreads keep their doomfists, or both and you have just changed the target pritority by 100% Much better in my opinion.
While I'm not convinced that Draigowing is going to be good no matter the list, here's how I'd do it:

DRAIGO!!! - 275 pts
Librarian with The Shrouding, The Summoning, Might of Titan, Warp Rift, 3 Servo Skulls and MC Force Sword - 190 pts
Venerable Dread with MM, fist and SB - 175 pts
Venerable Dread with MM, fist and SB - 175 pts
Venerable Dread with MM, fist and SB and Warp Stabilisation Field - 180 pts
5 Paladins with 2 MC Psycannons, MC Hammer (can't touch this!) and Brotherhood Banner: 355 pts
5 Paladins with 2 MC Psycannons, MC Hammer and 1 pair of Nemesis Flachions: 335 pts
Storm Raven - 205 pts
Storm Raven - 205 pts
Psyfledread - 135
Psyfledread - 135
Psyfledread - 135
2500 pts on the nose

Bum-rush the opponent with 3+ cover save Ravens, Draigo, the Pallies, Libby and 2 of the vens, Summon the 3rd ven dread, and pound face.
6 replies · active 731 weeks ago
Dude, that's 2500 points.
Yup. Tried at 2000 pts, wasn't satisfied with the result.
Oh really? It's almost like it's hard to make something out of it at 2k ;)
It is. Like I said, I just don't think Draigowing is a very good concept, full stop. It's just way too many points put into too few units.

I guess if I really wanted to make it at 2k, this is what you would be left with:
DRAIGO!!! - 275 pts
Venerable Dread with MM, fist and SB - 175 pts
Venerable Dread with MM, fist and SB - 175 pts
5 Paladins with 2 MC Psycannons, MC Hammer (can't touch this!) and Brotherhood Banner: 355 pts
5 Paladins with 2 MC Psycannons, MC Hammer and 1 pair of Nemesis Flachions: 335 pts
Storm Raven - 205 pts
Storm Raven - 205 pts
Psyfledread - 135
Psyfledread - 135

1995 pts.
Meh sorry, not impressed. That's just a silly Rock list, even worse than my own. A list like this fails even harder against any gunline as those Ravens just get shot down by S7 and S8 fire and thenn your oppenent can start to pepper you with Ap2. You're simply adding more overpriced units in this way (Ravens are overpriced, Draigo and Paladins are too) without looking at creating any form of 'synergy' (no sticking units in a Raven isn't creating synergy, that'sjust lazy list design) which is bad. But that's my opinion of course.
Meh. It's not a great list, but I don't think it's possible to have a great Draigowing list anyways. Disagree about pretty much all your other points, but at this point we're just going around in circles so I say fair play to you good sir!
pimpdaddyork's avatar

pimpdaddyork · 731 weeks ago

The blood god laughs at pure knight list! 2++ for the win!
force weapons are only a psychic attack when used as such. power weapons love tasty berzerkers and daemons. nom.
Wow thats a funny list, actually draigo lists like this will ONLY have bad matchups. i dont see any reasonable unit in this list, ok except for the DK. back to the drawing board i say
1 reply · active 731 weeks ago
Pleasen enlighten us with your endless wisdom sir (:
Here's a list I came up with for a bit of fun:

Grand Master Flash:
- Lord Draigo - 275
- Grand Master Mordrak - 200
- Ghost Knight Retinue (5 x Terminators w/ Halberd + BH Banner) - 225
- Techmarine (Halberd, Storm Bolter, Bling Grenades, 2 x Servo Skulls, Orbital Strike Relay) - 164
- Techmarine (Halberd, Storm Bolter, Bling Grenades, 2 x Servo Skulls, Orbital Strike Relay) - 164
- Paladin Squad (5 x Paladins, 2 x MC Psycannon, BH Banner) - 350
- Paladin Squad (5 x Paladins, 2 x MC Psycannon, BH Banner) - 350
- Dreadnought (2 x TL Autocannon, Psybolt Ammunition) - 135
- Dreadnought (2 x TL Autocannon, Psybolt Ammunition) - 135
- 1998

Thinking of taking it against a friend tonight who's using Salamanders. What you think??
2 replies · active 731 weeks ago
I love it. 15 Terminators and two dreads. Hyper-elite army there.
Thanks!

I am considering dropping a Techmrine to upgrade both the dreads to Venerable. The intention is to Deepstrike the infantry, which means the dreads would be priority targets in the meantime. I do like the Techmarines though. Combined with their cheaper Servo Skulls, the Orbital Strikes can be quite deadly (1 D6 scatter and the Barrage Bomb can bring the pain!).

As I said, this one is mainly fun factor to get to use some of the special characters...and I like the idea of Ghost Terminators! lol

Most normal lists I'll probabaly be more sensible i.e. Grand Master / Librarian / GKSS / Vindicare Assassin etc.
I'm going to try out a Draigo list with 10 paladins, a Land Raider Redeemer, and a Dreadknight. It's all in the mail... still waiting on my codex.
Might add a techmarine if their rules turn out to be super cool. Orbital Strike relay? have to check that out.
Lists that exist primarily for Annihilation missions are pretty lame. Just about any Codex can do a good old-fashioned beardy build with min troops and work similarly. Kill your enemies before they can hurt your troops.

So I share the OP's lack of enthusiasm for the topic. Time to move on.
1 reply · active 731 weeks ago
So you can tell that I don't really like Draigo lists hmm? :P Indeed, I do not ^^ I love balanced lists without any awefull matchups and that's kinda hard to achieve with Draigo I'm afraid, but I gave my best.
Draigo
Inquisitor w/RadGr and PsCommunion
3 servosculls

10 Paladins (4 PsCs, 2 Hammers, Halberds)
10 Termies (2 PsCs, 2 Hammers, Halberds)

10 Interceptors (2 PsCs, 2 Hammers)
5 Interceptors (1 PsC, Hammer)

5 GKnights (1PsC,Hammer)

Interceptors get Outflank, Paladins and Termies deepstrike all at once due to 2+ PsComm rolls.

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