The title probably gives you already a really big hint as to what this post is about... But let me start by telling you why I'm doing a post on Draigo in the first place: I was rather underwhelmed with the 2 guest articles on 'Draigowing' if I'm honest. Take 1 felt like a regular list with Paladins shoehorned into it while take 2 had some odd contradictions in it. No offense and that's just my opinion. Anyways, I decided I could make a Draigo list while going a bit more into detail or at least with a more clear idea behind it.
The basis is simple: You start with Draigo, or else you're not making a Draigo army now are you? I also assume that we want at least 2 Paladin units in it. The Paladins, what kind of setup? Let's go with the standard setup: 2 MC'ed Psycannons and optimal wound allocation as it's rather easy to obtain.
Now let's look closer at the Paladins and what their defense statline means. Basicly they are Terminators with 2 wounds, for 15 points more. This means they are a lot more survivable against small arms fire compared to Terminators. Couple with this the wound allocation and it's even better as it takes longer on average to kill any models. Less damage output though right, as you have less models in comparison? Not really; you get 2 psycannons per 5 man and can MC them. In CC you're having WS5 which is pretty sweet. In summary: They are rather survivable to small arms fire when comparing them to Termies (or regular GK's/purifiers, same deal).
Now in list terms what does this mean? My instinct tells me that when I add normal GK's and Rhinos/Psyflemen that the advantage I get by taking Paladins disappears. How's that? Because GK's die to small arms, Rhinos to S6+ weaponry and Psyflemen to S7+ (Autocannons and Missiles for example). What do we get when we include those in a list with Paladins? That often means you don't really get to use the comparative advantage Paladins gives you, because Paladins die to S8, especially when it ignores their 2+ save. Yeah you can get coversaves, but it's still a weakness and Librarians have their own problems. (psychic power, 6" range, rather costly when also taking Draigo) This makes the target priority even easier for your opponent: Throw the S8+ at the Paladins and the rest at your Rhinos/GK's.
Next thing to look at is Draigo: My gawd, 275 points for a model with a 12" threat range unless you take a 200+ transport for him? Pfff... Well as told I can't drop him or else this post would make no sense. Let's see.... We can stick him in a squad so he can catch some S8+ fire I guess. Yeah that doesn't sound all bad. But hey wait! We only got 1 Draigo so our other squads can't use this awesome 'tank' ability of his. This feels rather ineffective too. What can we do about this? Karamazov baby, yes really. He gives us the ability to catch some lasscannons and missiles (omnomnom) for a 2nd squad. That's not it though: He also solves our Leadership problem while adding a MM and some combat potential in the process. Did we have a Leadership problem? Yes, when you're running with units costing more than 200 points while not being Fearless or having a re-roll then you are vulnerable to especially Tank Shocks. The more when not having access to meltas in your squads. (it makes oppenents less willing to try it).
So we have this baseline:
DRAIGO!!!! 275
Karamazov 200
5 Paladins; 2 MC psycannons 325
5 Paladins; 2 MC Psycannons 325
Total: 1125
1125?! No way we're gonna make a good army out of this. Ah well, let me optimise it at least or maybe going for a kind of theme then. Let's see, if you followed my above reasoning I think it's clear that I don't want any 'soft' targets in the list. No Psyflemen then? Indeed, no Psyflemen. Venerable Dreads then? Yes, those pretty much refuse to die to non-Ap1 weaponry (which threatens your Pallies too), so I'll take them. Setup? Psyfleman setup as I want to have a chance against Eldar and DE please. Let's take 2 of those, should be enough.
So we're adding:
Venerable Dreadnought; psyfleman 195
Venerable Dreadnought; psyfleman 195
Total: 1515
485 points left and we have 2 scoring-shooting-midfield-minideathstars and 2 hard to kill suppression platforms. Alright, could have been worse. I would like to just add more targets now and if you been paying attention (or read the title) then you understand what I'm adding now: Dreadknights. For 130 points a piece their defensive statline is pretty impressive and they don't give a fuck about things like Missiles and Autocannons either, just like the rest of the list. What are they gonna do? Either just move up or you can deepstrike them in. (You'll be doing that in DoW missions most of the time for example) And then? They punch stuff, duh.
We get to choose between 3x naked Dreadknight or 2x Teleporter Dreadknight... I'm saying 3x Naked at the moment as I rate more targets a little higher here, but I'm not sure. Then we're having some points left, 95 to be precise. Either we add weapons to the Dreadknights or we can add 1 solo Paladin and spend the leftover points for some more weapons/mastercraftings on the Paladin squads. I'll be going with 1 solo Paladin which might be able to claim an objective. This way you might be less forced to use Draigo his Strat to make more units scoring and thus you can give Dreadknights scout or something like that. (yes Teleporter + scout might be nice, but it's not a reason to choose for teleporter DK's alone as it doesn't work against every army and neither when you go 2nd)
So final list:
Draigo 275
Karamazov 200
5 Paladins; 2 MC psycannons 325
5 Paladins; 2 MC Psycannons 325
Palladin; 55
Venerable Dreadnought; psyfleman 195
Venerable Dreadnought; psyfleman 195
Dreadknight 130
Dreadknight 130
Dreadknight 130
Total: 1960 points
Spend those 40 points in whatever way you want; I'm tempted to go for a Pimpcane in both Paladin squads personally, but mastercrafting weapons is an option as well. Alternatively: drop the Mastercraftings on the psycannons and get a 2nd solo Paladin.
Well there you have it, my take on Draigo. I'm not claiming it's overly competitive (pretty sure it's not ;) ), but at least this list does something else besides just being an inferior list compared to non-Draigo lists. I hope you took enough Ap2 with ya (:
Thoughts?
Kirby 118p · 731 weeks ago
Just want that clear for everyone who keeps reading these Draigo posts lol (will they ever end...?).
Desc440 · 731 weeks ago
Imo, use regular psyfledreads, and use your vens as MM platforms. You have very few melta platforms in this army, and this is by far one of the better ones. Sucks that you don't have access to drop pods, but you can always use a SR or be summoned by a libby (warp stabilisers is just 5 pts anyways).
Clayman · 731 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 731 weeks ago
Desc440 · 731 weeks ago
Clayman · 731 weeks ago
Desc440 · 731 weeks ago
Clayman · 731 weeks ago
Archnomad 70p · 731 weeks ago
Also, those things HATE meltas.
Desc440 · 731 weeks ago
Archnomad 70p · 731 weeks ago
Terms if you want.
Zjoekov 74p · 731 weeks ago
If you include regular Psyflemen in such a list, they will die to Autocannons and Missiles; not good. Including regular Termies? They die to bolters or other stuff rather easily.
I think that covers all of these replies. And 4 highly accurate and mobile S8 shots a turn which you ignore? I see, interesting.
Desc440 · 731 weeks ago
Yes I'm well aware that ven psyflemen are nigh unkillable. No I still don't think that's worth 5 pts shy of 200 pts.
Yes I'm aware of the gimmick you went with. No I don't think it's a good gimmick. Not when you have a 12 inch assault radius and your anti-vehicular fire power consists of 16 S7 rending shots and 8 S8 shots. Oh and one MM. Whoopdideedoo!
Auretious Taak · 731 weeks ago
Zjoekov 74p · 731 weeks ago
Really read before you post man; saying 2 Paladins die each time you point melta at it is just not true.
Auretious Taak · 731 weeks ago
Zjoekov 74p · 731 weeks ago
But hey I'm not arguing it's not a weakness, remember: I'm trying to make Draigo + Paladin list work here, I'm not claiming it's a competitive idea! You can provide a more competitive 2k Draigo list, go ahead.
Clayman · 731 weeks ago
"3 wounds, 2 dead", i'm afraid to ask if you understand the concept of wound alocation?
Perhaps "must be gone through" was an tad of an overstatement but my point is still valid.
KingCronan · 731 weeks ago
Desc440 · 731 weeks ago
Draigo has The Grand Strategy, so that alleviates the issue somewhat.
artemi7 78p · 731 weeks ago
KingCronan · 731 weeks ago
Skcuzzlebumm · 731 weeks ago
Draigo = 275
Karamazov = 200
Vindicare = 145
10 Paladins all with Psybolt Ammo; 1 = Apothecary with Storm Bolter & Master-crafted Hammer. 2 = Master-crafted Psycannon & Brotherhood Banner. 3 = Master-crafted Psycannon & Master-crafted Hammer. 4 = Master-crafted Psycannon & Halberd. 5 = Master-crafted Psycannon & Sword. 6 = Storm Bolter & Warding Stave. 7 = Storm Bolter & Master-crafted Hammer. 8 = Storm Bolter & Falchions. 9 = Storm Bolter & Halberd. 10 = Storm Bolter & Sword = 815
X3 Paladins = 55ea
X3 Dreadnoughts with 2 Twin-linked Autocannons & Psybolt Ammo = 135ea
TOTAL = 2000
As mentioned why worry about Dreadknights for combat punch and therefore ramping up the cost of the dreads by having to use venerables when you have a death star that is going to scare most armies in combat?
Auretious Taak · 731 weeks ago
Skcuzzlebumm · 731 weeks ago
loudanddeep 48p · 731 weeks ago
A couple of thoughts...not a critique on your list, just some ...thoughts.
Limited options;
I ran a dragio list the other day, just to see what it could do. Even had an apothecary in there, and lots of other goodies...it was amazing.
I got VERY lucky, and managed to pull an annihilation mission, and due to terrain and other factors managed to wipe my opponent.
Overall, the lack of units (scoring or otherwise) makes this kind of list challenging to play, and heavily depends on not having a lot of objectives. I know you never said it was an event winner, and this point is surely obvious to many....but perhaps not to all.
It was however, a ton of fun to play...
Pallies/Termies + psy = CC goodness.
You mention the differences between termies(and pallies) and other troops, and even mention "In CC you're having WS5 which is pretty sweet." Here is a really important point, that many don't seem to mention.
When you take a psycanon with a normal GK, it replaces their storm bolter AND their CC weapon.
When you take a psycannon with a termie/pally it replaces their storm bolter ONLY.
That means when you take Psycannons for normal infantry, you are losing power weapon attacks in CC.
(do you lose one attack as well? I have no clue).
However, you don't lose any power weapon attacks (or the option to attack at I6 with an upgrade) with termies and pallies.
This is a subtle, but very valuable difference. A huge deal...I don't know, but I know for me, it ment I had to have a bit better planning on where I handed out psy cannons on my non termie troops.
Add in the fact that termies/pallies are relentless, and you have maybe more shots then you would have with the strike squads...
DK's...
Yes, add a heavy incinerator. Its very handy for those moments when you might run into a horde, or when there are pesky snipes in cover, or those really annoying DE jet bikes zipping around getting 3++ cover saves. Place template, and say "dodge this"....
2000 points?
So, in one fell swoop everyone is making all 2k lists now? I get it, its not easy making 1500/1750 GK lists...its even worse with dragio (I did it, it was silly)....but most FLGS games are not 2k...they are 1500. Ok, sure, maybe for this article its fine...I dunno.
But can you guys kind of keep the lower point totals in mind...game play may change due to GK, but game size wont...
thanks for the post. I look forward to more of your thoughts and ideas, especially once you start sharing ideas on how nids can play against these guys....(I am a NID and GK player as well). I have a few thoughts after my first nid games, but need more testing.
(it was pathetic....I let the other player quit after a few turns).
Zjoekov 74p · 731 weeks ago
About the 2000 points: That's simply because this concept is even worse at 1750 or even 1500... But I'll be posting 1500/1750 stuff too. We play 1700/1750 mostly here so my battlereports will be that many points too (:
spaguatyrine · 731 weeks ago
Desc440 · 731 weeks ago
DRAIGO!!! - 275 pts
Librarian with The Shrouding, The Summoning, Might of Titan, Warp Rift, 3 Servo Skulls and MC Force Sword - 190 pts
Venerable Dread with MM, fist and SB - 175 pts
Venerable Dread with MM, fist and SB - 175 pts
Venerable Dread with MM, fist and SB and Warp Stabilisation Field - 180 pts
5 Paladins with 2 MC Psycannons, MC Hammer (can't touch this!) and Brotherhood Banner: 355 pts
5 Paladins with 2 MC Psycannons, MC Hammer and 1 pair of Nemesis Flachions: 335 pts
Storm Raven - 205 pts
Storm Raven - 205 pts
Psyfledread - 135
Psyfledread - 135
Psyfledread - 135
2500 pts on the nose
Bum-rush the opponent with 3+ cover save Ravens, Draigo, the Pallies, Libby and 2 of the vens, Summon the 3rd ven dread, and pound face.
Zjoekov 74p · 731 weeks ago
Desc440 · 731 weeks ago
Zjoekov 74p · 731 weeks ago
Desc440 · 731 weeks ago
I guess if I really wanted to make it at 2k, this is what you would be left with:
DRAIGO!!! - 275 pts
Venerable Dread with MM, fist and SB - 175 pts
Venerable Dread with MM, fist and SB - 175 pts
5 Paladins with 2 MC Psycannons, MC Hammer (can't touch this!) and Brotherhood Banner: 355 pts
5 Paladins with 2 MC Psycannons, MC Hammer and 1 pair of Nemesis Flachions: 335 pts
Storm Raven - 205 pts
Storm Raven - 205 pts
Psyfledread - 135
Psyfledread - 135
1995 pts.
Zjoekov 74p · 731 weeks ago
Desc440 · 731 weeks ago
pimpdaddyork · 731 weeks ago
SneakyDan · 731 weeks ago
Phil · 731 weeks ago
Zjoekov 74p · 731 weeks ago
Spencer · 731 weeks ago
Grand Master Flash:
- Lord Draigo - 275
- Grand Master Mordrak - 200
- Ghost Knight Retinue (5 x Terminators w/ Halberd + BH Banner) - 225
- Techmarine (Halberd, Storm Bolter, Bling Grenades, 2 x Servo Skulls, Orbital Strike Relay) - 164
- Techmarine (Halberd, Storm Bolter, Bling Grenades, 2 x Servo Skulls, Orbital Strike Relay) - 164
- Paladin Squad (5 x Paladins, 2 x MC Psycannon, BH Banner) - 350
- Paladin Squad (5 x Paladins, 2 x MC Psycannon, BH Banner) - 350
- Dreadnought (2 x TL Autocannon, Psybolt Ammunition) - 135
- Dreadnought (2 x TL Autocannon, Psybolt Ammunition) - 135
- 1998
Thinking of taking it against a friend tonight who's using Salamanders. What you think??
Scott · 731 weeks ago
Spencer · 731 weeks ago
I am considering dropping a Techmrine to upgrade both the dreads to Venerable. The intention is to Deepstrike the infantry, which means the dreads would be priority targets in the meantime. I do like the Techmarines though. Combined with their cheaper Servo Skulls, the Orbital Strikes can be quite deadly (1 D6 scatter and the Barrage Bomb can bring the pain!).
As I said, this one is mainly fun factor to get to use some of the special characters...and I like the idea of Ghost Terminators! lol
Most normal lists I'll probabaly be more sensible i.e. Grand Master / Librarian / GKSS / Vindicare Assassin etc.
Scott · 731 weeks ago
Might add a techmarine if their rules turn out to be super cool. Orbital Strike relay? have to check that out.
recklessfable 29p · 731 weeks ago
So I share the OP's lack of enthusiasm for the topic. Time to move on.
Zjoekov 74p · 731 weeks ago
Alexander · 707 weeks ago
Inquisitor w/RadGr and PsCommunion
3 servosculls
10 Paladins (4 PsCs, 2 Hammers, Halberds)
10 Termies (2 PsCs, 2 Hammers, Halberds)
10 Interceptors (2 PsCs, 2 Hammers)
5 Interceptors (1 PsC, Hammer)
5 GKnights (1PsC,Hammer)
Interceptors get Outflank, Paladins and Termies deepstrike all at once due to 2+ PsComm rolls.