Kirb your enthusiasm!

WEBSITE HOSTED AT: www.3plusplus.net

"Pink isn't a color. It's a lifestyle." - Chumbalaya
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit
"I buy models with my excess money" - Valkyrie whilst a waitress leans over him


Tuesday, March 29, 2011

PsyCoteaz - Some Grey Knight playtesting thoughts


Okay I've had several games now with the latest PsyCoteaz list against a variety of armies including Hybrid Tau, multiple Imperial Guard, Mech Marines, Mech BA, Jumper BA, Hybrid Wolves and Tyranids. More play-testing to do obviously but this is giving me some good samples on which to base some thoughts and get a feel for the army.

First things first. Passbacks. Meh. My first incarnation of the list had a bunch of these and they have gotten less and less with each passing to the point of no return. I was high on them and dazzled by their S7 and the ability for the army to generate ~50 S7 rending shots. It was crazy but it was also uni-dimensional and the passbacks suffer a lot from weapon destroyed and immobilised results. this means they aren't really as durable as other vehicles and whilst cheap scoring options are nice, I think these guys are best used minimally or not at all. I know there was a ton of discussion about this weeks ago and I went the other direction so I admit to being shown up there by the chatbawks (but not VT2 lol).

Since then I've replaced them with 2x Psybacks and 2xLasPlas. This has given me less midfield presence overall but more ranged firepower to go with the Dreadnoughts. I haven't really found the survivability (or lack there-of) of the henchmen to be an issue. They either die or hide and with the two full GK strike squads, it's not like they are my only scoring. I'm currently running them as 5-6 strong and might experiment with cutting this down somewhat on the LasPlas ones for some points elsewhere (stormbolters on the Psybacks? makes them less mobile though).
With the four Razorbacks and two Psyfledreads I haven't really had an issue dealing with ranged armies. They certainly outgun me (and I always seem to get Spearhead deployment against them) but the list has been able to create enough suppression to let my army advance relatively safely. Combined with Fortitude across the army (perils on vehicles is funny...) and I can generally suppress+kill shooty opponents as much as they can kill me.

The Grey Knight portion of the army otherwise bum-rushses midfield. Four chassis into midfield isn't much so potentially swapping out some of the henchmen RBacks for GK RBacks (need to find quite a few points for that though which would really make you wonder why Coteaz?) though it becomes a trade-off of backfield firepower and midfield presence. All the same, 36MEQ+Coteaz in midfield isn't too easy to dislodge (though I've had four games with a Grey Knight Strike Squad escorted off the board) but is quite vulnerable to tank-shock (no melta we hate you). That being said the firepower of those units is pretty staggering with a ton of psycannon and stormbolter shots and they aren't slouches in combat either.

That being said I haven't had issues dealing with large amounts of infantry or tanks. The lack of AP1 can be painful against AV14 (still need to versus AV14 with scary assault units inside) but the sheer volume of shots against vehicles generates enough hits to at least suppress them which I discussed above. I've also found the number of wounds the list can do in a single turn can turn smaller opposing units to mush and focus firing on super units generates a lot of dice rolls. The lack of invulnerable saves in combat is annoying but with I6 Halberds and force weapons across the midfield part of the list backed up by S8-10 hammers is pretty reliable and can clean-up lots of squads and have minimal difficulty with most units up to scary assault units.

Overall, I'm quite happy with the list so far. Some more tweaking and play-testing different variants is necessary (more or less GK in midfield?) but am certainly enjoying how it plays and the durability of the list (yes, even with the henchmen squads). I enjoy midfield armies so this shouldn't be a surprise but the combination of multiple psycannons, mass stormbolters, supporting firepower and fortitude on 10 vehicles is a very enjoyable. Will hopefully get some more games in against more opponents and can learn some more but so far a positive response IMO.

Comments (23)

Loading... Logging you in...
  • Logged in as
How did the vs DoA go? Im still wondering how im going to beat GK with DoA at this rate with math hammer its not looking good, any ideas?
3 replies · active 731 weeks ago
Deploy on table, don't bother deepstriking. Warpquake may be very situational but here it hurts DoA badly. If you're running pure DoA like Vince's Night Lords you'll have trouble as your VV cannot be everywhere but if you're running Devastators it's a bit easier as you can de-mech the midfield GK and then try your damnedest to avoid the midfield GKs (though it's pretty hard at times). The really scary units are Halberd (i.e. Purifier) based units as they will strike before you and you don't have much anti-infantry outside of combat to really hurt them. Otherwise you need to combine assault against most GK units so they don't strike against you.

It's a tough match-up for sure and I think different DoA variants will become a bitmore popular because of it (i.e. Jumpers + Ravens + Speeders) which have more ranged anti-infantry.
This, a million times this.

Play-testing with and against DoA, I can say they get hit hard by the Gray Knights- the warp quake, sanctuary, and the like makes dropping near them a losing proposition, and the GK propensity to bunch up near each other causes trouble against the army. Like Kirby says, devastators are helpful, but be aware that, unless you have a VERY nice building to park them, GK can easily fashion a protective womb of vehicles for their guys to slog behind- and in higher points games, sanctuary also helps them.

The big things is that stormbolters are a dangerous thing against jumpers- they out range you and can put the hurt on (even when benefiting from FNP, and the short range of pistols+ melta means that you need to focus fire on a unit at a time- which is a bit tricky then they have fashioned a little caravan of vehicles backed by 30+ PW wielding rapists- especially purifiers.

Luckily, the fact most of their weaponry does lack extreme range makes it possible to start on the table, though I would say this is one of the only matchups where I would suggest against strong-siding- if they know where you are coming from, they can take advantage of the fact they know where you are coming from and caste appropriately.
Bikes with plasmaguns?
Brother Captain Ed's avatar

Brother Captain Ed · 731 weeks ago

So how are other midfield armies (like Vanilla) going to handle them, Kirbs? I haven't really analyzed the codex yet, but it seems like GKs can put out enough firepower to hurt Vanilla Marines and in close combat they're monsters who go first. How are us Ultras going to crack this nut?
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
Vanilla armies have a ranged and anti-tank advantage with more dakka and more reliable anti-tank thanks to lots of melta weapons. If you can get the Libby in midfield this advantage becomes more distinct as fortitude isn't going to work as much. However, Mech Marines loses their advantage in midfield because the GKs are much more combat potent than them and don't really care about their solid stats (being the same but with power weapons) so you obviously do not want to engage them in CC. If you have units like TH/SS all the better but this comes with the trade-off of less firepower or hulls on the table.

Biker armies don't really have any issues. They still die in combat but are faster and have a bunch of melta and they either have great mech support or combat support with Command Squads which give them combat advantages over anything without Halberds (and even then, they have 3++'s) or ranged advantages like mech armies.

I think GK are probably the better midfield army in a direct comparison unless you have some TH/SS Terminators but the Marine list is flexible enough to play more ofa shooting game when up against this list and attempt to gain the advantage that way.
To echo BC- Ed, any recommendations for Sisters/Deathwing/Midfield armies?
3 replies · active 731 weeks ago
Brother Captain Ed's avatar

Brother Captain Ed · 731 weeks ago

Oh yeah. Sisters have the same problem. Good catch.

I'd love to hear thoughts on it.
Deathwing is always going to have issues killing things outside of combat. GK just exemplifies this due to Fortitude, it's going to be hard to suppress them with just CML at your disposal. Doublewing is probably more viable as you get some fast melta to shove in their face like Vanilla Bikers. Otherwise a bunch of Terminators and many with SS are hard to crack in midfield, even for a power sword wielding force. You beat them in combat if you have enough SS saves (remember, Purifiers on the charge are really only going to inflict 1 wound per 2A guy if hammerhand gets off) to make. Grey Knights don't like anything which ignores their armor so they are going to try and soften you up with shooting first obviously. They certainly have the combat prowess to down your Terminators but not if they are at full strength.

In regards to Sisters, they are fine if you are running Immmo spam or Immo spam with IG allies. GK can deal with the amount of mech these lists can put out but they aren't going to be able to blow them all up quickly unless they get lucky which means you're still moving across the board just without as many templates. Marines beat you up in CC so GK beating you up in CC isn't that big a deal. In essence running Immo spam variants against midfield GK is like versusing regular Marines but with different target priorities. If you have IG allies or Exorcists you'll also notice these guys are less effective at suppressing the backfield firepower though the Exorcists are a nicer choice (but still not recommended) due to AP1.

I think GK is a very strong midfield army but will suffer against actual combat units with an invulnerable save. This is what is hurting armies like DoA as Sanguinary Guard have no invulnerable so roll over to Halberds. If you don't have these you can generally overwhelm them with firepower and smaller units or you out-range and -gun them and need to take advantage of that early.
Re: Deathwing/Doublewing - I think you are missing one important point about Dark Angels... their libbys have unlimited range pyschic hoods. Granted, they are stupidly over costed and poor leadership, but I think Grey Knights just made including a libby in a Deathwing army more important (clearly, you can't if you are running doublewing with bikes/termys as troops). I often use a Libby in my competitive DW army (insert VT2 comment here) and I'm actually now considering bumping up to Ezekial for the leadership 10 and the extra power. I think it would be LOLs to Mind worm a Dreadknight. Ezekial isn't good, but I have the extra 25 points to spare in my current set up. So, it's either this or add 5 chain fists. Either way, some form of Libby will be in my all comers lists, even if it is only leadership 9. I usually run half combat, half shooty, so I can just sit him back, shoot, and use the hood.
any chance you can post up the revised list? I'm having a hard time picturing it in my mind now (having read too many different Grey Knights lists in the last 5 days)
4 replies · active 731 weeks ago
Coteaz
2x8x Purifiers w/5x Halberds, Hammer, 2x Psycannon, Rhino
2x10x GKSS w/2x pscyannons, psybolts, MC hammer, Rhino
2x6x Acolyte w/Razorback w/psybolts
2x6x Acolyte w/Razorback w/lasplas
2x Pysfledread
abortedsoul's avatar

abortedsoul · 731 weeks ago

Glad to see the changes on your list! Looks like a definite improvement, Kirbs.
Just to clarify, does Coteaz run with the Purifiers or one of the Acolytes? Otherwise, looks like a decent list. :)
Generally Purifiers. Couple extra hammer attacks, hammerhand + cleansing flame and aggressive sanctuary is nice to have.
pimpdaddyork's avatar

pimpdaddyork · 731 weeks ago

I have found the secret to defeating pure grey knights. The army is none other then daemons. Does anybody remember the collar of khorne, yeah no all your units have a 2++ in close combat, evil laugh hahahaha.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
abortedsoul's avatar

abortedsoul · 731 weeks ago

Demons already have a significant advantage, having army-wide invuln saves. The 2++ in combat against them does help, but more importantly the Grey Knights can still just castle up and shoot them off the board as they drop.
"though I've had four games with a Grey Knight Strike Squad escorted off the board"

Apologies for that...

I'm kidding, that was excellent work from me, but I should have then charged the psyback and henchmen to protect myself from your shooting.
How have those Razors with Heavybolter/psybolt performed? Would it be worth dropping them for another Psyfledread?
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
I like them. It's basically 5 wounds a turn on MEQs which in the first two turns can really supplement your firepower nicely. Otherwise you've got more shots which can suppress or put wounds on MCs which is never a bad thing. S6 is really a breaking point for a lot of guns just like S8 is as well. In this list I certainly wouldn't replace them with a Rifledread. The Dread has more firepower certainly but you lose a lot of scoring. The Aco units can work because there's multiples of them and they aren't that high on the priority list after T2 (you've got GKs in your face!) unless midfield is cleared.
How does the 2++ save from collar of Khorne stop a force weapon from functioning as a power weapon?
2 replies · active 731 weeks ago
It's a 2++ save against wounds caused by psychic powers and force weapons. Ironically, this makes Fleshhounds a better unit for dealing with units like Strike Squads than, say, Bloodletters. Especially if they carry Halberds.
Ah I see. I was getting confused with the collar of khorne from the old csm codex which only prevents ID from force weapons.

Post a new comment

Comments by

Follow us on Facebook!

Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...