"Hey Kirby! Long time lurker, first time writer. The blog has been extremely helpful in improving my game and getting my hobby fix while I’m off at school. I was hoping you could take a look at a list for me. It’s a themed one, but I nevertheless wonder how well it would work. See, you’ve tackled TWC before, but all of your lists seem to sort of throw in a 3-man squad or two. I wanted to try a TRUE Thunderwolf Cavalry list, which puts them in every place imaginable in as much force as possible.
HQ
WGBL—170
TW Mount
Combimelta
PFist
Fenrisian Wolves x2
WGBL—175
TW Mount
Combimelta
PFist
Meltabombs
Fenrisian Wolves x2
WGBL—180
TW Mount
Meltabombs
Wolf Claws x2
Fenrisian Wolf x1
WGBL—190
TW Mount
Storm Shield
PFist
Fenrisian Wolves x2
Elites
3x Iron Priests—155
TW Mount
Cyberwolves 4x
Troops
2x Grey Hunters—190
X10 w/Meltagunx2
Rhino
Fast Attack
3x Thunderwolf Cavalry!—365 each
1 Pfist
2 Pfist/SS
3 Pfist/Meltabomb
4 Meltabomb
5 Nadda (not enough points…)
Problems I foresee:
Anti-tank is an issue, no denying it. Relying on close combat to take down tanks is problematic, but hopefully I’ve thrown in enough S10 hits to take care of it. Melta is sparse, but present. Which brings up the other problem: lack of troops. A savvy opponent will blow my two AV 11 hulls off the table and wipe away those ten-marine squads. The iron priests seem a little thrown in, but they fit the theme very well, and give me more Thunderwolves. Anyway, thoughts? Comments and criticisms appreciated!
Alex"
Three PFists on the TWC squads is illegal (thank you commentors!). Dropping those down to a single PFist will save a bunch of points and make the unit legal. From there you can fiddle with wargear to get uniques as you wish. From there we really need more Grey Hunters. You probably won't generate enough points for another GH squad just by dropping those PFists so look to drop one of the Wolf Guard Battle Leaders and grab two squads if possible. Don't worry about Rhinos. I would also highly recommend replacing one of the Iron Priests with a Wolf Guard squad so they have Ld9. I know this is cutting down on your Thunderwolf count but it gives you much better scoring, more melta, more bodies (which are reliable thanks to Ld9) and makes the list overall better whilst keeping a theme. Oh, and get Wolf Tooth Necklaces on the Iron Priests. In the end it's a decent list which has a huge weakness in no ranged fire support but is certainly workable and isn't going to simply roll over to any old list.
Now, if you wanted to make this list truly competitive cut down the HQs to a single WGBL. Do the same as recommended above and then grab as many Long Fangs as possible. This means your army actually has some suppression whilst it is moving across the field and not everything has to be killed in combat (very important against lists with layered bubble-wrap since you have minimal shooting and no tanks). You might have to make the Thunderwolve squads four strong for this though but still leaves you with around 20 thunderwolf models or look at dropping the Iron Priests.
Logging you in...
Albinowombat · 731 weeks ago
Also, how about Saga of the Hunter (Stealth USR) on the WGBL.
Behemothh 48p · 731 weeks ago
Thunder cav, massed, often do soak up a lot of AT firepower, so your rhinos will probably last longer than you expect.
spaguatyrine · 731 weeks ago
*I have 12 thunderwolves and have used up to 11 in 1 game.
Your average leadership is only 8, and with all your HQ's at Ld 9 your going to get tank shocked off the board against a mech army. Strength 10 still need a 6 to hit vehicles moving 7 inches. You are correct in that you are going to have problems with Mech. Your Thunderwolves are also going to outrun your Rhino's making them even more hardpressed to pop stuff. For 2500 points you can afford at least 2 Wolf Lords with Runic Armor and Storm Shields (Why runic? to have those ap3 missles bounce off and give you a 5+ save against those pesky psychic powers) (Ever play against Fear of Darkness? This power from the blood angels will make most of your army run off the board in 2 or 3 turns without psychic protection). You also need a saga of magesty which only a Lord can take to be able to re-roll those tank shock checks.
spaguatyrine · 731 weeks ago
spaguatyrine · 731 weeks ago
spaguatyrine · 731 weeks ago
spaguatyrine · 731 weeks ago
You can visit my blog at
theback40k.blogspot.com
to get more tactics and answers to space wolf questions.
Auretious Taak · 731 weeks ago
TheKingElessar 71p · 731 weeks ago
spaguatyrine · 731 weeks ago
spaguatyrine · 731 weeks ago
With a heavy TWC list, you will be dead in the water if you can't crack those hulls!
SandWyrm · 731 weeks ago
spaguatyrine · 731 weeks ago
Archnomad 70p · 731 weeks ago
Or there's saga of majesty.
Or you can run the big wolfstar.
If you can mitigate LD, you're golden. Go for it.
Kirby 118p · 731 weeks ago
Didn't cover Ld in post so good to point out.
Auretious Taak · 731 weeks ago
http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/01/email-r...
More importantly, the thread looks at why running them without support is a bad idea and doesn't work that well, namely you hit a mobile bunker and can't access the juicey troops inside which will utterly slaughter you in their turn, so have a read of the article.
spaguatyrine · 731 weeks ago
"A good thunderwolf Cavalry list needs long range fire suppression, and more then 2 units of 4 ML LF's to guarantee it"
2 longfang units with 4 GH hunter units with melta/combi melta in Rhino's and a Wolf Scout unit with melta/combi melta is plenty. I would personally never use Iron Priests on Thunderwolves as their 1 wound is too much of a hindrance and you can get so much more with real TWC. It just takes 1 Vet Chimera squad to kill the whole unit of Iron Priest and cyberwolves.
"It doesn't force your opponent to do anything. Taking damage is part of good play (rather recognising you WILL take damage), a lot of people will feed you march blocking units or sacrificial units thus controlling you and your forces"- Are you serious? With a 24" threat range you choose where to attack and who to kill or not. You can bypass units with the moblity of Thunderwolves. I am not trying to be negative, but have you actually played them?
Roland Durendal · 731 weeks ago
Otherwise, I have yet to see a really effective massed TWC list. Usually hybrid lists work the best, where you have 2 smallish (2-3 TWC in each max) squads running around, backed up by 2-3 Fang squads and 3-4 Rhino/RB GH squads as the base. That way you've got good long range suppression and around 5 different units moving at your line and fixing to hit it around the same time.
And anyone who sends their TWC out alone ahead of their Rhino wall...well is asking for their TWC to die an early inglorious death. They should be either even with, or just slightly ahead/behind (and by slightly I mean like no more than 6") your Rhinos.
Auretious Taak · 731 weeks ago
THUNDERWOLF CAVALRY ARE NOT JUMP INFANTRY STUFF BLOCKS THEM EASILY.
Yes, Of course, I've never played Space Wolves, or TWC based lists. In fact why do i even give some sort of advice on TWC/SW lists at all and have people give good feedback based off them? I think I'll go and hide in a hole in the corner because no, I have no idea what I am talking about because I don't play enough.
Seriously, stop playing seals and play real generals. Then you wouldn't be making such bs comments.
TheKingElessar 71p · 731 weeks ago
Apart from anything, Spag is considered good enough by Farmpunk and Sandwyrm to write on their blog, so...
Kirby 118p · 731 weeks ago
Threat range = maximum possible range at which a unit can do damage. If you plan for those TWC assaulting 24" (i.e. you're 24.1" away from them) all is well. If you plan for a 19-24" threat range and they get 24" and you've gone with averages so moved to 21.4". Well shit. As the owning player yes you should bank on getting the lowest result and plan accordingly but as an opponent? When opposing threat ranges are really important? Plan on the worst in the reverse regard.
Otherwise what TKE said. Spag makes some good points even if you don't agree with them all.
Auretious Taak · 731 weeks ago
spaguatyrine · 731 weeks ago
Auretious Taak · 731 weeks ago
spaguatyrine · 731 weeks ago
Spag is considered good enough by Farmpunk and Sandwyrm to write on their blog, so... "And to have beat both of them the last 5 times each with my Space Wolves. I have been paired up with them 4 times in the last 3 tournaments. :)
Frank Fugger · 731 weeks ago
I think if you wanted to make this "truly competetive" then packing in more than 2 scoring units would be a better place to start than fire support. That's nice, and indeed necessary as it helps siphon some of the torrenty anti-Wounds shooting off of your TWC, but building a list designed to win by tabling, which is essentially what's being suggested, is a bad thing; not only because lots of armies are very difficult to table even with masses of Missiles and Thunderwolves, but also because the better events tend to refuse to reward you for things you can't do due to your list set-up (i.e they won't give you points for controlling four objectives if you aren't actually controlling four objectives).
Ten-man GH squads are for footslogging, not riding in a Rhino. If you want to run them ten strong then ditch the Rhinos, take 4 at least, give them all dual Meltaguns, and give them a Combi-Guard leader with a Powerfist. Of course, footslogging Wolves means either a) a Thunderlord with Saga of Majesty (because fuck Ld tests) or b) Ulrik. I'd take Ulrik myself, because he is The Man; stick him with a GH squad and give his squad a second Powerfist. He can also make your WGBL WS6, which is helpful. Or he can make your Powerfist Wolf Guard WS5, which is even more helpful.
All that said, if this was me and I wanted to run a list like this (that is, footslogging Wolves with Thunderwolves and Missiles), I'd probably be looking at Loganwing. Just because Logan is the only 275pt SC in 40k that actually justifies spending 275pts on a single model, Wolf Guard are better at fightan' than the equivalent number of Grey Hunters, and it allows you to put 2 Missiles and some Meltaguns into each squad alongside whatever Power Weapons you feel you need.
Which is none. Because Logan destroys all.
Auretious Taak · 731 weeks ago
As to SC's not worth it other then Logan at 275pts, that's highly debateable especially with Draigo on the scene now. Loganwing with TWC support could work, but it's a lot of expensive models in a single army, again with a more waved feel. Ulrik in the army instead of a TWL is also an expense I feel is unjustified, you're waving in the force, again which doesn't work when you are relying on TWC to have a significant impact on your opponents' army.
Frank Fugger · 731 weeks ago
Ulrik
4x Wolf Guard, 1x Power weapon, 1x Termie w/ Cyclone Launcher & Powerfist
4x Wolf Guard w/ combi-Melta & Powerfist
10x GH w/ 2x Meltagun & Power Weapon
10x GH w/ 2x Meltagun & Power Weapon
10x GH w/ 2x Meltagun & Power Weapon
10x GH w/ 2x Meltagun & Power Weapon
4x TWC, 1x Thunder Hammer
4x TWC, 1x Thunder Hammer
5x Long Fangs, 4x Missile Launcher
5x Long Fangs, 4x Missile Launcher
5x Long Fangs, 4x Missile Launcher
Something like that. Would probably be different with Loganwing; less bodies, but more Missiles.
If you're trying to compare Logan I think Draigo is a poor choice. Draigo is good at having a fight and makes Paladins Troops choices, in addition to bringing Grand Strategy which is more or less a must considering how small Paladin armies will be. Logan makes Wolf Guard Troops choices, turns whatever squad he is attached to into the 300 Spartans with a choice of special rules and rerollable Stubborn Ld10, gives every unit within 18" +1 Attack once per game, and is also quite good at having a fight. Not as good as Draigo, but good enough considering everything else he does for you.
spaguatyrine · 731 weeks ago
I did write, " I am not trying to be negative, but have you actually played them? " I apologize if you took it as an attack. It was not meant to be negative, in fact, not until I researched you did I find your previous post on tactics with Thunderwolves. I meant no harm to your comment.
That being said; my validation as a fairly competent space wolves player speaks for itself. I do write for theback40k and greatly respect 3++, and therefore you in return. We don't really need to pull it out and show who's is bigger, but I am 100% confident in my ability on the tabletop, and the tactical advice I give in regards to space wolves and thunderwolf calvary. We don't really need to discuss consecutive tournament wins and undefeated runs in tournaments either.
Sincerely,
Spaguatyrine
Auretious Taak · 731 weeks ago
I re-read over what you did say, and what I said and I also apologise for coming off harshly. You make some good points, but at the same time 2 of my points stand. In any case I'll do an article following up from this as I play similarly but also differently and it works as well.
Cheers mate,
Auretious Taak.
Warboss Stalin · 731 weeks ago
TheKingElessar 71p · 731 weeks ago