
Lately I felt the need to contribute to the 40k community a little more besides chatting around in 'the box' and replying now and then to mind baffling comments on Warseer. Then the issue arises: What can I contribute? I decided I can do some sort of series about common mistakes/misunderstanding/false assumptions or, as I like to call them, 'fallacies' regarding 40k and/or it's (online) community. I don't know exactly how many posts I can do on this, but looking around there is enough input for quite a few. This time I'm going to cover some major mistakes people make when they apply mathhamer, or alternatively, probability in 40k! So, here we go. In my opinion one can recognise four different groups of people 1) People who don't understand anything of it. 2) People who understand bits of it, but don't acknowledge that it is a useful tool. 3) People who understand bits of it and apply it a lot, often in wrong ways. 4) People who understand it pretty well and so know how and when to apply it. The first group is (getting) satisfied already by some basic mathhammer articles, the second group doesn't realise they belong in the first group and the fourth group don't need to be told more things about it. That leaves the third group for today. Almost every mistake comes forth from one thing: People only work with averages when they try to calculate things in 40k. Not comparing these averages with other averages (in the case of weapons for example) is another one. I'll look at the most glaring issues with actual examples now.
During games.
Oh my god, you are so lucky! That Terminator should have been dead!This line should sound pretty familiar to almost anyone, although probably with some other kind of unit. What happens a lot: People figure that failing a 2+ armour save is a 1/6 chance. The average amount of wounds needing to be caused to kill a Terminator would be 6 then, no problems here. But that does not mean that it "should be dead" if somebody rolls for it! Why? Because you need to know what the chance is that somebody passes all 6 saves. It's not too difficult in this case, 5/6^6 x 100% = 33,5% (!)
Above all people should realise one thing: In most situations the chance of not rolling the average result is way higher than rolling it.
Example: Passing exactly 6 out of 9 Marine armour saves is a lower chance than getting a different result. (27,3% chance that you roll the average in this case)
Overall: Think before you whine, is it justified or are you being unreasonable maybe? When you blame the dice for your loss you not only take away a bit from your opponent his achievement, but you're also lying to yourselves ultimately. (if you blamed the dice unrighteously at least)
During theoryhammer.
Person A: A Storm Raven just isn't that hard to kill with its Av12Person B: Bullshit, a missile launcher only has a 7,4% to destroy a flat-out Raven!
Person A might not have a clue about mathhammer, but at least he's not drawing conclusions on a number which is meaningless in a vacuum, which person B is guilty off.
The problem is here: What does that 7,4% chance mean? Is it high or is it low? Person B uses it in such a way that it looks really low...righteously so? There is no clear answer to this and that is okay, I'm only here to point out what goes wrong here.
The problem is that the number 7,4% is useless without reference. Now, the guy could have compared that number with other examples himself but I doubt it... My internal alarm went of right away, I 'know' that 7,4% in this case are relatively high odds. How do I prove this? Let's look at some other numbers. I'll list the chances of a single Missile Launcher destroying other vehicles in cover against their front armour (double the chances if you want the odds of getting immobilised being included, same for getting results without cover):
- Rhino – 5,55%
- Chimera – 3,7%
- Ork Truck – 12,0%
Now the worst part, what do these numbers mean? Does this mean the Raven is relatively easy to kill? I mean Rhinos get killed by Missile Launchers too! And there arrives another problem with mathhammer: it's just mathhammer in the end. It's hard to argue how well one could stay out of range of such weaponry with the Raven for example.
Another example:
Howling Banshees are excellent Marine killers, they kill 10,1 on the charge with Doom support!
How hard is it to get such a charge of with them? How easy is it to get Doom support? Point investment? This line is false by the way, they aren't excellent at anything.
In the end my point is: Please think before you decide to try and back up your opinion with numbers. Be honest and make sure they are relevant, you help nobody when you deceive people with useless statistics. To the people on the receiving end: Don't be afraid to question the usefulness of numbers when someone uses them.
Now it may seem that I think mathhammer is pretty much useless, which isn't true. Far from that actually, but I'll cover that in a future article.
Thoughts?
Gmort · 735 weeks ago
I wrote an article on just this subject,
http://www.houseofpaincakes.com/2011/02/its-easy-...
Behemothh 48p · 735 weeks ago
Thrungrom · 735 weeks ago
My terminators always dies on 3 armour saves !!!
No seriously math-hammer is good to make the right decision, the dices dictates the outcome.
Bad players fail on the wrong decisions, good or great players can have bad luck with the dices.
U need 3 or 4 Grey Hunters to break (or kill) an IG squad that doesn't mean 10 guardsman kill 3 or 4 Grey Hunters in CC. (now that's a bad example).
I just mean, u have to vision maths in ur brain. WS, S + special rules versus WS, T + special rules. If u can predict that, u can eliminate the bad decisions and leave it to the dice gods (or daemons)
devilinmypocket 36p · 735 weeks ago
I like mathhammer to a point. It can make for an interesting discussion, and give you an idea of how to hedge your bets with certain actions and match-ups. What I hate are the people who take it to an almost mythical canon state where anything that runs counter to the sliver of percentages is downgraded to an almost non-existent state, which would be understandable if you are talking about chances of a third or a half, but when you are talking 1/20 versus 1/21, it just gets silly. As Berra said, 'Lady, I made it to the top by never overthinking nothing' [sic].
Marshal_Wilhelm 61p · 735 weeks ago
tzeentchling 76p · 735 weeks ago
Dave Sinn · 735 weeks ago
Marshal_Wilhelm 61p · 735 weeks ago
It informs all my choices.
However, I play Blood Bowl online. Basically your turn ends as soon as you fail a roll.
"The best-laid plans of mice and men, Often go awry"
The more you see the 'impossible' happen [or should that be improbable?]
and the 'automatic' not come to pass
the more you realise 'should' doesn't equate to 'will'
I think that it is a little bit like what MVB is saying about social contracts. Don't expect the dice to be obliged to you or your stacking of the odds. I think that is where our offence at failing comes from.
It should've!
I'm unlucky!
You're lucky!
Etc.
Stack the odds as best you can, both with list building and tabletop effort, but realise that it is not chess and doesn't have prescribed actions occuring.
Archnomad 70p · 735 weeks ago
Marshal_Wilhelm 61p · 735 weeks ago
However, when you combine it with the thousands of games played, has it occurred within a reasonable deviation of what it should? I feel that it probably has not.
The thing is, that emotional investment is made into those dudes and the team as a whole. That definitely colours the perception.
As you say, people also employ faux-science on these kinds of things.
Vindicators are pure pwnage because I've seen X
Dwarf teams get better damage rolls because I've seen Y
Now BB could be rigged - I don't know. More likely is what you and I are talking about
:)
Badger · 735 weeks ago
vbs · 735 weeks ago
I think the most amusing outcome of mathhammer is when someone decides that a certain weapon can only be effective if bought in numbers large enough to "guarantee" the desired result.
Rupert40k 49p · 735 weeks ago
Jason · 735 weeks ago
Polynomial theorem is great for mathhammer.
Archnomad 70p · 735 weeks ago
T.T
Kirby 118p · 735 weeks ago
abortedsoul · 735 weeks ago
Archnomad 70p · 735 weeks ago
Good read.
Zjoekov 74p · 735 weeks ago
purgatus 90p · 735 weeks ago
artemi7 78p · 735 weeks ago
This said, I play a lot of strategy video games; enough to make me really suspicious about percents. It's not that I don't believe them, it's more that I don't trust them, as it always seems that when I REALLY need a certain number to come up, it normally ends up whatever number is least useful for me. I know, I'm just glossing over when things go well and remembering when they don't, but ugh.
The point about the average coming up far less then any option other then the average is well noted, though. I never considered that angle, before.
Mycroft · 735 weeks ago
:)
Cambrian · 735 weeks ago
Killing an average of 5 marines is great; when but when using that against a combat squad of 5 marines with a SD of 3.5 means you're fairly likely to either overkill (with no bonus) or under-kill (in fact at that level there's a greater than 16% chance of killing less than 3). If the SD was instead 1 the likelihood of killing at least 4 would be greater than 75%.
Knowing the SD will give you a much better idea of using what against what. The same 2 squads vs. a 10 man marine squad present a different situation. The SD of 3.5 has the chance to break a very large squad; this makes it great when you can afford the risk of doing very little. However when you need to knock the force down to approx. half strength the SD 1 option is more reliable.
Reliability often even comes at a cost. It's not necessarily always worth it, like spinefists on gants (which are more reliable vs things like guardsmen), On things that are less numerous and more important (thinking anti-tank or anti-elite fire power) the cost often is very worth paying for. In 5th a games momentum is often determined by what happens to a select few units (such as transports). Immobilizing that LR or rhino in the first round can often be the determining factor in what plays out in the midfield.
soylent · 735 weeks ago
that howling banshees vs marines example. sure the banshees would mince the marines in CC, but how did they get there? did they walk across the table getting shot at by those marines? did they have a transport? would the banshees really even bother with assaulting a basic marine unit when they could probably murder them terminators that would otherwise threaten something important?
did the marines have a nearby demolisher ready to blash them to pieces?
erwos · 735 weeks ago
Mycroft · 735 weeks ago
Mycroft · 735 weeks ago