So I, as every other red blooded 40k nut, have been flicking through whatever copies of the Grey Knights codex we can get out hands on, and I am putting up the first "FAQ DIS".
I am looking at the way that Coteaz interacts with Henchmen.
His special rules include the following:
"
Lord of Formosa
Inquisitorial Henchmen Warbands are Troops choices in an army that include Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz, and are not limited by the number of Inquisitors in your army.
" - GW's Codex Grey Knights
The interesting consideration comes from the special limitations rule that the Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband has:
"
For each Inquisitor in your army, you may also include a unit of 3-12 henchmen, chosen in any combination from those shown. The unit does not use up a force organisation slot.
"
So, the way that I but not Kirby, reads this is as follows:
With Coteaz, henchmen are troops but do not take up a FOC slot, and can be taken as many as you like.
Great, right? If I am wrong, which I expect I am, I will retract this stupidity... anyway.
Well, looking at the Henchmen, we have a quandry.
"An Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband can select any dedicated transport".
Oh, really?
So, lets see how stupid we can make a list with this obviously to-be-FAQ'd trick.
First, 1750, then 2500.
festers "If it ain't broke, don't FAQ it" GK @ 1750
HQ
Coteaz
Troops
5 GK Terminators, Incinerator
5 GK Terminators, Incinerator
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Plasma in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Plasma in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 2 Plasma in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
2 Warriors, w/ 2 Melta, Mystic in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
2 Warriors, w/ 2 Melta, Mystic in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
2 Warriors, w/ 2 Melta, Mystic in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
So, umm, yeah
10 TEQ, 24 melta @ BS3, 8 plasma @ BS3, 3 teleport homers (Mystics) and ...
13 Chimeras.
= 1750 points.
Lets see how this scales to 2500.
festers "If it ain't broke, don't FAQ it" GK @ 2500
HQ
Coteaz
Troops
5 GK Terminators, Incinerator
5 GK Terminators, Incinerator
5 GK Terminators, Incinerator
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Plasma in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Plasma in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Plasma in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Plasma in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta, Mystic in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta, Mystic in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta, Mystic in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta, Mystic in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
2 Warriors, w/ 2 Melta, Mystic in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
Now we are talking!
21 scoring units, all either in TEQ or Chimera.
Now, while the world calls me a WAAC cheating douchebag...
I bid you all, adieu, and wish you luck in finding all those meltaguns.
Kirb your enthusiasm!
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit

Wednesday, March 16, 2011
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Grey Knights: Reading Comprehension & Coteaz
2011-03-16T08:43:00+11:00
fester
Army Lists|fester|Grey Knights|Random|Warhammer 40k|
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sirbiscuit 81p · 749 weeks ago
SandWyrm · 749 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 749 weeks ago
fester40k 73p · 749 weeks ago
abortedsoul · 749 weeks ago
archont · 749 weeks ago
If it won't take up a FOC-Slot, then it won't count towards the 2TroopsFOC-Slots you need to fill.
You'd still have to get 2 regular troops, imo
archont · 749 weeks ago
fester40k 73p · 749 weeks ago
The termies are the "you must die!!!" squad, and use the mystics to port exactly where you need them :)
slick · 749 weeks ago
sirbiscuit 81p · 749 weeks ago
archont · 749 weeks ago
fester40k 73p · 749 weeks ago
araeziel 1p · 749 weeks ago
fester40k 73p · 749 weeks ago
Desc440 · 749 weeks ago
Why? Unless there's extra text Fester didn't include in the post, there is nothing saying so anywhere. Maybe it's an oversight from GW, but RAW, they are currently troops that don't take up a FOC slot.
moug · 749 weeks ago
gundog8324 · 749 weeks ago
CCS-Astropath, Lascannon
Chimera
CCS-Master of Ordinance, Lascannon
Chimera
3XPCS-Lascannon
Chimera
15X Infantry Platoons-Lascannon
Chimera
18 scoring units in Chimeras 20 Lascannons for the Heavy Tanks+ 20 HB and Multi Lasers for hordes+suppression
and a negative comp score at any tournament that you attend
p.s. Kirby how about a poll who gets a lower comp score my list or fester's?
Kirby 118p · 749 weeks ago
_Axiomatic_ 47p · 749 weeks ago
So you get 0-6 Troop choice henchmen for Tacomunda Kotex, plus 0-1 non FOC choice henchmen for each other inquisitor.
Right?
fester40k 73p · 749 weeks ago
Don't get me wrong, I don't WANT this to work this way as its stupid and broken, but hey, rules is rules. I don't want JotWW to work either, or psychic hoods, or meltaguns, or anything that will kill my orks :P
_Axiomatic_ 47p · 749 weeks ago
"For each Inquisitor in your army, you may also include a unit of 3-12 henchmen, chosen in any combination from those shown. The unit does not use up a force organisation slot."
THE unit. not THESE units. Each inquisitor allows one unit of henchmen and THAT unit is outside FOC.
Coteaz allows any number of Henchmen units, each which must be a troops choice. 6 troops choices filled = Corteaz allows no more henchman units.
2+2 =/ = 22. :) much as I wish it would.
fester40k 73p · 749 weeks ago
Certainly, I agree with what you are saying to a point.
Why? The rules _associated to the henchmen_ also state that the henchmen unit does not take up a FOC slot. As such, no henchmen warbands take up a FOC slot. That's how I read this.
As I said above in the comments, I dont WANT this to work, but this is how I am seeing it work at the moment. I am also sure this will be FAQ'd out of existance... but I need to be proven wrong in a non-grey-area manner.
Another "grey" ruling that I recall being FAQ'd was Deffrollas, and it swung against common belief that they didn't work.
Desc440 · 749 weeks ago
TheKingElessar · 749 weeks ago
Gx1080 · 749 weeks ago
Don't be sponsoring stupid armies that are going to be money wastes after the FAQ.
fuklaw 27p · 749 weeks ago
It is a HQ, but it doesn't take a slot.
In this case, they count as troops, but don't take up slots.
This will get FAQ'd but, when, its another issue, so have fun till then. ;)
Steve · 749 weeks ago
dameon · 749 weeks ago
I agree 100%,
I mean not to compair apples & another unrelated fruit but look at the text in the current CSM codex on page 102.. "Your lesser daemons do not use up any force org chart selection but are otherwise treated as troops"...
GW does have the ability to make it clear when something is supposed to stand outside the standard force org
Steve · 749 weeks ago
If they were still not counted in the FoC, we would have seen the normal 'counts as troops' language used by GW in that case.
Trying too hard to make noise here, when it's a fairly clear rule in the first place.
fester40k 73p · 749 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 749 weeks ago
fester40k 73p · 749 weeks ago
confoo22 · 749 weeks ago
All that Corteaz's rule seems to do is remove the restriction on one per inquisitor while also allowing them to be troops, but there's nothing there to suggest that they would start taking up slots just because they're called a "troop choice". I mean, has there ever been an official ruling from GW on whether a certain phrase means something concrete like this, or is this just an accepted meaning according to the player base? I feel like you're relying too heavily on semantics to make your argument here.
Based on what the rules say here, it seems as though someone could definitely take just Corteaz and then an unlimited number of henchmen units (I don't think you would need the GK as your "compulsories" since the rule book doesn't say that compulsory units need to take up FoC slots, i.e., The Black Templars' Emperor's Champion).
I don't think this is as clear cut as you would like it to be.
abortedsoul · 749 weeks ago
ubermosher · 749 weeks ago
Rules for Henchmen Warband: "For each Inquisitor in your army, you may also include a *unit* of 3-12 Henchmen, chosen in any combination from those shown. This *unit* does not use up a force organisation slot."
Emphasis on "unit" mine.
Rule for Coteaz: "Lord of Formosa - Inquisitorial Henchmen warbands are Troops *choices* in an army that includes Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz, and are not limited by the number of Inquisitors in your army."
Emphasis on "choices" mine.
The wording "Troops choice" is significant. As Steve indicates, "Choice" indicates a Force Org choice. That's why henchmen are referred to as a "choice" under Coteaz and as a "unit" when taken otherwise.
virtualsniper · 749 weeks ago
Separate to that, you can take other unit of 3-12 henchmen and count them as a troop choice instead of what they normally count for. The number of inquisitor is irrelevant at this point, as long as you have coteaz, you can take henchmen as troops until you reach the max number of troops allowed, which is 6.
So you have Inquisitor coteaz and another inquisitor, then you can add 2 units of henchmen and use your 6 slots of troops as 6 units of henchmen.
I don't see where the confusion comes from.
fester40k 73p · 749 weeks ago
Morgrim Dark · 749 weeks ago
Having said that, I do believe that a) this will get FAQed by GW to limit henchmen to six selection with Coteaz and b) it really is quite silly to try to play the list with "unlimited" troops/vehicles. Ultimately, the exercise is an intellectual experiment (if such a phrase can apply to 40k) similar to Schrodingers cat... can they be troops with no FOC at the same time?! Is Coteaz alive or dead when until I look at him... can Crowe really be a T4 non-IC?! (ok, so none of that really applies to quantum mechanics but what else is 40k but a massive thought experiment in social psychology?)
Fester, as a programmer, can you state this condition as a series of logic gates that would better describe the problem? I tried and just couldn't get the relays right ;)
fester40k 73p · 749 weeks ago
{
You can Add Warband.
}
else if (Inquisitor Count > Warband Count)
{
You can add Warband
Warband Count + 1
}
else
{
Too bad, buy a Psyrifle dread instead.
}
Morgrim Dark · 749 weeks ago
Assuming no one takes me seriously (and I have seen people get worked up over this and other 40k rules - NO, REALLY)... I would be happy to loan someone my meager set of three rhinos and whatever other vehicles they can beg, borrow, or steal and play a round of Gridlock 40k(C).
virtualsniper · 749 weeks ago
Then, the henchmen warband is another unit that can be taken as troop if you have coteaz. No where does it says that you can go over 6 troops. They say this is not limited to the number of inquisitor because, like they said, if you take coteaz, even if you don't have another inquisitor, you can have all your troops choice fill with henchmen warband.
There is no link between the 2 sentences.
virtualsniper · 749 weeks ago
abortedsoul · 749 weeks ago
Dezzo · 749 weeks ago
all that needs to happen is 2 - 3 fail their DT check and your entire carpark stops moving.
i play both mech ig and ba so i know how annoying it is when that happens. to me, dozer blade upgrades still cost too much especially if you are going to take 10 of them for you whole army.
hopefully they will improve how tanks move over terrain next ed. =/
gundog8324 · 749 weeks ago
gundog8324 · 749 weeks ago
As a note to those who say this arguement is about principles, who cares this games is supposed to be FUN and if my opponent blew $750 USD for what he thought would be a fun army and I will not oppose his decision to use it.
fester40k 73p · 749 weeks ago
UnmovedMover 26p · 749 weeks ago
B. You guys need to start thinking outside the box, ie the Chimera:
Coteaz
5 Grey Knights
5 Grey Knights, 1 w/ Incinerator
(3 Servitors w/ Multimelta) x 56
Yep, 168 Servitors. Sure, half of them mindlock every turn. That's still 84 multimelta shots, or 42 multimelta hits, per turn. You could switch some out for heavy bolters if it tickles your fancy.
You probably wanna go for the table in a KP mission.
fester40k 73p · 749 weeks ago
B: The though did occur to me doing this too :)
The difference is that I think that 3 Warriors in a box is going to become a mainstay troops-filler for the GK Codex, and once this all gets refuted and FAQ'd there might be some minor value in the blog post :)
Also the chimmys are there to allow for save TP's into the fight for the 2 GKT squads
VT2 79p · 749 weeks ago
soylent · 749 weeks ago