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Wednesday, March 16, 2011

Grey Knights: Reading Comprehension & Coteaz

So I, as every other red blooded 40k nut, have been flicking through whatever copies of the Grey Knights codex we can get out hands on, and I am putting up the first "FAQ DIS".

I am looking at the way that Coteaz interacts with Henchmen.

His special rules include the following:

"
Lord of Formosa
Inquisitorial Henchmen Warbands are Troops choices in an army that include Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz, and are not limited by the number of Inquisitors in your army.
" - GW's Codex Grey Knights

The interesting consideration comes from the special limitations rule that the Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband has:
"
For each Inquisitor in your army, you may also include a unit of 3-12 henchmen, chosen in any combination from those shown. The unit does not use up a force organisation slot.
"

So, the way that I but not Kirby, reads this is as follows:

With Coteaz, henchmen are troops but do not take up a FOC slot, and can be taken as many as you like.
Great, right? If I am wrong, which I expect I am, I will retract this stupidity... anyway.

Well, looking at the Henchmen, we have a quandry.
"An Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband can select any dedicated transport".
Oh, really?

So, lets see how stupid we can make a list with this obviously to-be-FAQ'd trick.

First, 1750, then 2500.

festers "If it ain't broke, don't FAQ it" GK @ 1750

HQ
Coteaz

Troops
5 GK Terminators, Incinerator
5 GK Terminators, Incinerator

3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Plasma in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Plasma in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 2 Plasma in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
2 Warriors, w/ 2 Melta, Mystic in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
2 Warriors, w/ 2 Melta, Mystic in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
2 Warriors, w/ 2 Melta, Mystic in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)

So, umm, yeah
10 TEQ, 24 melta @ BS3, 8 plasma @ BS3, 3 teleport homers (Mystics) and ...
13 Chimeras.
= 1750 points.

Lets see how this scales to 2500.

festers "If it ain't broke, don't FAQ it" GK @ 2500

HQ
Coteaz

Troops
5 GK Terminators, Incinerator
5 GK Terminators, Incinerator
5 GK Terminators, Incinerator

3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)

3 Warriors, w/ 3 Plasma in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Plasma in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Plasma in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Plasma in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)

3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta, Mystic in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta, Mystic in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta, Mystic in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)
3 Warriors, w/ 3 Melta, Mystic in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)

2 Warriors, w/ 2 Melta, Mystic in a Chimera (Heavy Flamer, Multilaser)


Now we are talking!
21 scoring units, all either in TEQ or Chimera.

Now, while the world calls me a WAAC cheating douchebag...
I bid you all, adieu, and wish you luck in finding all those meltaguns.

Comments (51)

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For a mere billion dollars, you too can play with the most borked army in 40k, for the brief time it's legal! =D
3 replies · active 749 weeks ago
That's $595.00 in Chimeras alone. :)
But you must forfeit your soul.
I'm told by his-sharkiness that its illegal now.
abortedsoul's avatar

abortedsoul · 749 weeks ago

I thought of this too, which would be hirrarious.
Imho there's one logical fallacy:

If it won't take up a FOC-Slot, then it won't count towards the 2TroopsFOC-Slots you need to fill.

You'd still have to get 2 regular troops, imo
2 replies · active 749 weeks ago
Im a blind idiot, you got the 2 troops -.- Disregard that, I'm obviously blind :D
It's all good :)

The termies are the "you must die!!!" squad, and use the mystics to port exactly where you need them :)
Because it turns them into troops choices, they are then limited by the max of 6, similar to how Dante makes it so that I can take up to 6 sanguinary guard as troops- otherwise you would be limited to 3 and they would take up a troop and elite slot.
1 reply · active 749 weeks ago
Read the post again, bro- henchmen don't use up a slot, so you can take more than six.
Also, I'd get psyammo asscannon razorbacks rather than chimeras...
1 reply · active 749 weeks ago
The thought occured to me, as well as plasmabacks, but the Chimeras are the best bang-for-buck as you fill the contents with A-T (and dont have to get out to shoot) and let the hulls do the Anti-infantry.
The porblem with this is that, 'Lord of Formosa' essentially removes the 0-x limit on henchmen where x is the number of inquisitors. they become troops and DO take up FOC.. However, the fact that you can have six 13 man servitor squads with all heavy bolters/multi-meltas for 130 per squad is rediculous
3 replies · active 749 weeks ago
My argument is simple: Point me to the part where it negates the line of text: "The unit does not use up a force organisation slot."
"they become troops and DO take up FOC.. "

Why? Unless there's extra text Fester didn't include in the post, there is nothing saying so anywhere. Maybe it's an oversight from GW, but RAW, they are currently troops that don't take up a FOC slot.
summoned daemons... only better!
And I thought my using Chimera Spam was a dick move.

CCS-Astropath, Lascannon
Chimera
CCS-Master of Ordinance, Lascannon
Chimera
3XPCS-Lascannon
Chimera
15X Infantry Platoons-Lascannon
Chimera
18 scoring units in Chimeras 20 Lascannons for the Heavy Tanks+ 20 HB and Multi Lasers for hordes+suppression
and a negative comp score at any tournament that you attend

p.s. Kirby how about a poll who gets a lower comp score my list or fester's?
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
I'd much rather a poll on which army is better :P.
The way I read this, the henchman-allowy rules in no way stack. They merely work side by side.
So you get 0-6 Troop choice henchmen for Tacomunda Kotex, plus 0-1 non FOC choice henchmen for each other inquisitor.

Right?
5 replies · active 749 weeks ago
Except for the line "and are not limited by the number of Inquisitors in your army." in Coteaz's special rule, which says that they are no longer limited at all.

Don't get me wrong, I don't WANT this to work this way as its stupid and broken, but hey, rules is rules. I don't want JotWW to work either, or psychic hoods, or meltaguns, or anything that will kill my orks :P
Nah, you're focusing on Coteaz's rule, with out really looking at the inquisitor's.

"For each Inquisitor in your army, you may also include a unit of 3-12 henchmen, chosen in any combination from those shown. The unit does not use up a force organisation slot."

THE unit. not THESE units. Each inquisitor allows one unit of henchmen and THAT unit is outside FOC.
Coteaz allows any number of Henchmen units, each which must be a troops choice. 6 troops choices filled = Corteaz allows no more henchman units.

2+2 =/ = 22. :) much as I wish it would.
Ironically, as a programmer, the number of times 2+2 = 22 is amazing *shakes head*

Certainly, I agree with what you are saying to a point.
Why? The rules _associated to the henchmen_ also state that the henchmen unit does not take up a FOC slot. As such, no henchmen warbands take up a FOC slot. That's how I read this.

As I said above in the comments, I dont WANT this to work, but this is how I am seeing it work at the moment. I am also sure this will be FAQ'd out of existance... but I need to be proven wrong in a non-grey-area manner.

Another "grey" ruling that I recall being FAQ'd was Deffrollas, and it swung against common belief that they didn't work.
Why wouldn't they stack? There's nothing indicating this at all.
This is how I read it too.
Corteaz hechmen DO TAKE a slot.

Don't be sponsoring stupid armies that are going to be money wastes after the FAQ.
I just see them as the Emperor's champion.

It is a HQ, but it doesn't take a slot.

In this case, they count as troops, but don't take up slots.

This will get FAQ'd but, when, its another issue, so have fun till then. ;)
2 replies · active 749 weeks ago
You're wrong. That's why it says "Warbands are troop choices" and not "warbands count as troops" that's a very clear, and very important distinction.
@Steve,
I agree 100%,

I mean not to compair apples & another unrelated fruit but look at the text in the current CSM codex on page 102.. "Your lesser daemons do not use up any force org chart selection but are otherwise treated as troops"...

GW does have the ability to make it clear when something is supposed to stand outside the standard force org
Silly. Quite clearly when it says they become a TROOP CHOICE, that means they are now counted as part of the FoC as a Troop Choice and no longer associated as henchmen to a particular Inquisitor.

If they were still not counted in the FoC, we would have seen the normal 'counts as troops' language used by GW in that case.

Trying too hard to make noise here, when it's a fairly clear rule in the first place.
5 replies · active 749 weeks ago
This is the first reply that has made me think I might be wrong. Well done.
But if they don't take up a slot when they're elite, why would they all of a sudden take up a slot when they become troops?

All that Corteaz's rule seems to do is remove the restriction on one per inquisitor while also allowing them to be troops, but there's nothing there to suggest that they would start taking up slots just because they're called a "troop choice". I mean, has there ever been an official ruling from GW on whether a certain phrase means something concrete like this, or is this just an accepted meaning according to the player base? I feel like you're relying too heavily on semantics to make your argument here.

Based on what the rules say here, it seems as though someone could definitely take just Corteaz and then an unlimited number of henchmen units (I don't think you would need the GK as your "compulsories" since the rule book doesn't say that compulsory units need to take up FoC slots, i.e., The Black Templars' Emperor's Champion).

I don't think this is as clear cut as you would like it to be.
abortedsoul's avatar

abortedsoul · 749 weeks ago

+1.
ubermosher's avatar

ubermosher · 749 weeks ago

Just so.

Rules for Henchmen Warband: "For each Inquisitor in your army, you may also include a *unit* of 3-12 Henchmen, chosen in any combination from those shown. This *unit* does not use up a force organisation slot."

Emphasis on "unit" mine.

Rule for Coteaz: "Lord of Formosa - Inquisitorial Henchmen warbands are Troops *choices* in an army that includes Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz, and are not limited by the number of Inquisitors in your army."

Emphasis on "choices" mine.

The wording "Troops choice" is significant. As Steve indicates, "Choice" indicates a Force Org choice. That's why henchmen are referred to as a "choice" under Coteaz and as a "unit" when taken otherwise.
virtualsniper's avatar

virtualsniper · 749 weeks ago

Seems pretty clear to me. Each inquisitor gives you the right to add a unit of 3-12 henchmen that does not use a slot. Think of that as a retinue of some sort, but not necessarily attach to the inquisitor.

Separate to that, you can take other unit of 3-12 henchmen and count them as a troop choice instead of what they normally count for. The number of inquisitor is irrelevant at this point, as long as you have coteaz, you can take henchmen as troops until you reach the max number of troops allowed, which is 6.

So you have Inquisitor coteaz and another inquisitor, then you can add 2 units of henchmen and use your 6 slots of troops as 6 units of henchmen.

I don't see where the confusion comes from.
4 replies · active 749 weeks ago
The confusion comes because nowhere does the "This *unit* does not use up a force organisation slot." statement get explicitly overridden by the wording for Coteaz. It is insinuated, and I am confortable to say that it is intended as such by the wording for "choices", but a "choice" and a "slot" are nowhere defined as the same thing (from memory).
This is the crux of the issue. There is nothing in Coteaz rules that over rides the statement "this unit does not use up a force organization slot". 40k is rife with exceptions to the rule and nothing in Coteaz rules indicate otherwise.

Having said that, I do believe that a) this will get FAQed by GW to limit henchmen to six selection with Coteaz and b) it really is quite silly to try to play the list with "unlimited" troops/vehicles. Ultimately, the exercise is an intellectual experiment (if such a phrase can apply to 40k) similar to Schrodingers cat... can they be troops with no FOC at the same time?! Is Coteaz alive or dead when until I look at him... can Crowe really be a T4 non-IC?! (ok, so none of that really applies to quantum mechanics but what else is 40k but a massive thought experiment in social psychology?)

Fester, as a programmer, can you state this condition as a series of logic gates that would better describe the problem? I tried and just couldn't get the relays right ;)
if (Coteaz is in list )
{
You can Add Warband.
}
else if (Inquisitor Count > Warband Count)
{
You can add Warband
Warband Count + 1
}
else
{
Too bad, buy a Psyrifle dread instead.
}
Nice. I think your use of boolean logic should pretty much put the nail in this coffin of an argument! Coteaz makes non-FOC troops... you heard it hear first folks! ;)

Assuming no one takes me seriously (and I have seen people get worked up over this and other 40k rules - NO, REALLY)... I would be happy to loan someone my meager set of three rhinos and whatever other vehicles they can beg, borrow, or steal and play a round of Gridlock 40k(C).
virtualsniper's avatar

virtualsniper · 749 weeks ago

I know, but it state explicitely that the unit (3-12 henchmen) you take for each inquisitor does not take a foc in the first sentence. So you have 1 unit that do not take a foc for each inquisitor. You can have 2 inquisitor, then 2 units that takes no foc.

Then, the henchmen warband is another unit that can be taken as troop if you have coteaz. No where does it says that you can go over 6 troops. They say this is not limited to the number of inquisitor because, like they said, if you take coteaz, even if you don't have another inquisitor, you can have all your troops choice fill with henchmen warband.

There is no link between the 2 sentences.
2 replies · active 749 weeks ago
virtualsniper's avatar

virtualsniper · 749 weeks ago

sorry i hit submit comment instead of reply. Anyway, guess I'll let go of this. It is pretty clear what was intended and peoples tend to see link between things even when there is none. Happens all the time a new codex is release. It will be faq for sure, even tho they would not need to.
abortedsoul's avatar

abortedsoul · 749 weeks ago

Look at how many replies there have been back and forth. Just because you "get" it doesn't mean the rules were well written. If they were well written, there would be no question. GW, thanks for not playtesting your shit enough.
well... both lists are rather crappy to play with because the table is only 6 x 4 and filled with terrain.

all that needs to happen is 2 - 3 fail their DT check and your entire carpark stops moving.

i play both mech ig and ba so i know how annoying it is when that happens. to me, dozer blade upgrades still cost too much especially if you are going to take 10 of them for you whole army.

hopefully they will improve how tanks move over terrain next ed. =/
The real question is why is everybody getting worked up over this joke. IF ANYBODY ACTUALLY USES THIS LIST it is easy enough to counter. If you are running a balanced list all you need to do is shoot from you table edge. The meltas need to close to 12" every army has away to slow down "The Wall" (well maybe not DoA Blood Angels) so you should get at least 1 (more likely 2-3 if you deploy far enough back.) rounds before the meltas get close enough. Pop or immobilise the Chimeras up Front and "The Wall" has to drive around crippled vehicles or over Terrain and could immobilise themselves. Once the Transports explode the meltaguns die and have to pass 2 LD checks to move.
This list ain't scary, hell, I would LOVE to face this list, it is the only list with easier KPs than Mech DE. And I posted a list Earlier in the Comments, That is the one to fear, triple the bodies, more hulls, the ability to blob up in KP missions, and most important GUNS WITH A RANGE OVER 12"

As a note to those who say this arguement is about principles, who cares this games is supposed to be FUN and if my opponent blew $750 USD for what he thought would be a fun army and I will not oppose his decision to use it.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
$750 is not too bad for an army... That's what my Orks costs to buy NIB. (OK, $742.50 according to GW US RRP)
A. Pretty clear to me that it's illegal, though the rule is terribly written.

B. You guys need to start thinking outside the box, ie the Chimera:

Coteaz
5 Grey Knights
5 Grey Knights, 1 w/ Incinerator
(3 Servitors w/ Multimelta) x 56

Yep, 168 Servitors. Sure, half of them mindlock every turn. That's still 84 multimelta shots, or 42 multimelta hits, per turn. You could switch some out for heavy bolters if it tickles your fancy.

You probably wanna go for the table in a KP mission.
1 reply · active 749 weeks ago
A: I hope it is illegal. It really is stupid. Saying that, so is so many other rules :)

B: The though did occur to me doing this too :)

The difference is that I think that 3 Warriors in a box is going to become a mainstay troops-filler for the GK Codex, and once this all gets refuted and FAQ'd there might be some minor value in the blog post :)
Also the chimmys are there to allow for save TP's into the fight for the 2 GKT squads
The butthurt is off the scale!
awful lot of kill points there

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