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Tuesday, March 22, 2011

Interesting Things in the GK Codex



Been browsing the Grey Knights book over the past couple days (in between moving, etc); here are a few interesting little oddities that I've come across that someone doing more extensive testing/analysis might find a use for. Undoubtedly most of them are pretty non-good, but maybe one or two?

-Stormravens can get Psybolt Ammunition. They can also get a TLHB (a reason to take it!), a TLAssCan, and two Hurricane Bolters. And they move 6" and shoot them all. That's up to twelve S5, three S6, and four S7 Rending hits, all of them BS4 twin-linked. Oh, and you can throw the missiles in as well if you want (they're defensive weapons.) So yeah, maybe the GK Stormraven has a place as a gunboat. Having it in the FA slot means you can have it carry a Psyfleman if you want, too...

-Been pointed out before, but Mordrak's unit always arrives first turn. If you can find some ICs you wanna cram onto his squad, this could be handy. Another GK dude would be kinda pricey, but if you're doing a reserve list, an Inquisitor with Communion can be reasonably cheap. (Note that you'll need to give him Terminator armor so he can DS with the squad.)

-Rad Grenades and Psychotroke Grenades on Grand Masters are ridiculous.

-The Librarian's Teleport Homer only works on squads teleporting in from Deep Strike (Strike Squads, Terminators, Interceptors.) It doesn't work with The Summoning, etc, unless they FAQ it; likewise the Stormraven's Homer.

-Ordo Malleus Inquisitors can get Incinerators and Hellrifles (in addition to the usual melee stuff and Combi-weapons), making them the shootiest of the Inquisitors. They're also the only ones with access to Terminator armor, which unlocks a Psycannon.

-Ordo Hereticus gets the Inferno Pistol, which is kinda fancy. Psyocculum could be amusing if they hang with a squad full of Storm Bolters/etc, as making the whole squad BS10 is nice.

-Ordo Xenos get fancy grenades, but are otherwise unimpressive. I guess if you want to cram even more Conversion Beamers into a list? Hrm, Xenos + a bunch of Death-Cult Assassins diving out of a Stormraven? Probably not worth it, but you get a pretty dangerous payload for ~110pts or so...

-Techmarines get tons of fancy guns, but no Terminator armor so Relay and Conversion Beamer are less useful. Five Relays is a lot, though, and as ICs they can bring their fancy grenades or whatever to any squad. Ordo Xenos does it cheaper, though.

-Culexis is always going to be getting a lot of shots with his gun, the only question is if you can deliver him in order to use it; 12" range is pretty limiting.

-Servitors ignore Techmarines, lol. But a 10pt Multimelta is more than acceptable if your Inquisitor is going to be hanging with the squad. Put those bitches in a Chimera and go to town.

-Jokaero and Warrior Acolytes can both have Rending flamers if you roll the upgrade for them. Seems like monkey squads are going to be really random, but potentially awesome?

-Justicar Thawn lets his squad use two powers each turn. Does he make them Fearless? Stupid upgrade characters and lack of rules for them. :\

-Grey Knight Strike Squads are a fantastic value for what you get out of them; no other MEQ troop can even begin to stand up to them in a fight, and they will tear down MCs and even most dedicated assault troops as well. Justicars can't take Psycannons, stop doing that. Psybolt seems useful, but how often are you going to be on foot to use it?

-Halberd. Halberd halberd halberd. Halberd. The 'e' comes before the 'r' goddamn you.

-Interceptors are kinda too expensive to get heavy weapons on them. Maybe just aim for a rapid assault force?

-Purgation Squads are confused and don't realize they're supposed to be fire support, because they get cheap Incinerators and Nemesis weapons. Maybe as something to fall out of a Stormraven and cause problems?

-Psybolt Land Raider Crusaders? Maybe not as sexy as a Stormraven, but still a ridiculous gun platform. Obv you glue the Storm Bolter onto it as well. Summoning Land Raiders could be a lot of fun, except for that whole scattering thing. Damn, is there not a single Locator Beacon in the whole codex? Mystics, I guess. Your Libby may end up spending a lot of time hanging out with henchmen...

Comments (44)

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Mr. Pickels's avatar

Mr. Pickels · 732 weeks ago

one question that i have circling in my head is how the psyker power Quicksilver works with thunder-hammers(aka daemonhammers), I've heard it said (typed?) around the interwebz as saying, "All blows struck by the affected squad are struck at Initiative 10." i haven't had a chance to sit down and look at the book to confirm the power's wording, but that would make units with thunder hammers insanely powerfull. and i might just toss a Grandmaster one of those puppies if he can do that.
5 replies · active 732 weeks ago
Power Fists (and their derivatives, Thunder Hammers) ALWAYS strike at I1, no matter what. Quicksilver makes you I10, but you still strike at I1 with a a Fist/Hammer.
Does it say that specifically in the book? If not, there's a case for them striking at I10 since Codex rules override BRB rules.
Yes, it does. Check your BRB under special close combat weapons.
I'm a bit slow and I even I recognize your argument is piss poor. If you the character are Initiative OVER 9000, and you pick up a thunder hammer, what Initiative are you going to strike at? ONE. That's the rule. Quicksilver does not change that rule.
Mr. Pickels's avatar

Mr. Pickels · 732 weeks ago

ok, thanks for the info. I just got the chance, today, to get to my LGS that has the codex, and was able to read it. you are correct thunder-hammers would still strike at I1 even with Quicksilver up.
"...here are a few interesting little oddities that I've come across..."

my oddity observation is the lack of the drop pod in the dedicated transport section.
1 reply · active 732 weeks ago
Grey Knights aren't like other Marines in a lot of ways.

Drop Pods would make them awfully strong, I think; T2 assaults with an army full of power weapons? Yes please.
"-Halberd. Halberd halberd halberd. Halberd. The 'e' comes before the 'r' goddamn you."

Favourite bit right there. Otherwise it's a lot of food for thought. Don't forget that the Xenos Inquisitor can take a Plasma Syphon.
9 replies · active 732 weeks ago
I like the Xenos Inquisitor's Needle Pistol; 2+ poison AP2 weapon? Cool upgrade, if not a tad pricey. Though... I wish I wish I wish that they also got blind grenades; they'd be an auto pick for me, if that was the case.

Also, more a nitpick then anything, but... when an inquisitor takes psychic powers, they also MUST take a Force Weapon. Why, exactally? That jacks the price, and potentially jacks my demonhammer.

Also, another interesting thing of note is how Force Weapons and Brotherhood of Psykers works together. Suffice to say, even a single halbERd is a pretty good investment for that reason in squads. One guy (likely the Justicar, as he gets two attacks and thus two tries) goes first. He hits and wounds, then casts his Force Weapon power. Brotherhood of Psykers makes everyone else in the squad now deal Instant Death attacks, meaning when they do wound, they need to be split up to kill as many models as possible, throwing wound allocation tricks completely out the window. Even with 1 wound guys, this forces the opponent to spread the death like some plague. Meanwhile, poor Draigo can only, at best, kill a single model a turn with his Force Weapon ID strike. Not that he needs to worry about that a ton, though.
That sounds horribly broken there, awesome if it works.

Another thing I was wondering about is what happens say, if my Grey Knights with Halberds are attacking something like Ork Nobz or Thunderwolves and I wound three times (get's spread out as normal). Do I take one test and all three die?
Yeah, the Halberd tricks are just so good it's hard not to take at least some of them. Especially on Purifiers, who are amazing for their price.
I'm a bit fuzzy on exactly what you meant when you referred to 1-wound guys, so I would just like to clarify: as far as I can tell, Instant-death attacks on 1-wound units are treated exactly like any other attack in regard to wound-allocation. Right?
I disagree. It's kind of semantics, but important. I would argue that the attacks are not instant death, the unsaved wounds are. It's an important difference. You allocate wounds as normal, then try to make saves. So you can allocate more than one instant death wound to a model. You just can't do it if there are other like models around. Example, 3 crisis suits with same load out. 3 instant death wounds means three dead suits. However, if they have different load outs and you do 3 instant death wounds and 3 normal wounds, you have 2 suits dying to instant death and 1 making two normal saves.

Most importantly, my understanding of Force weapons is that the wounds are not Instant Death causing until AFTER saves are failed, because you don't make the Psycic check until the wounds go unsaved. Even as a GK player, I call shenanigans on this.
I had a similar situation come up recently and the guys were arguing for weird wound allocation for instant death wounds there as well. People should look over those rules some more, as Gramps is correct here. Wound allocation doesn't change just because of instant death wounds.

The problem comes from the fact that you remove whole models first when removing casualties on multiple-wound models with instant death weapons, but people forget that this statement doesn't override the rest of the rules for complex units.
wisdom like silence's avatar

wisdom like silence · 732 weeks ago

Nemesis Force Weapons in squads don't work like traditional Force Weapons. For NFW in a squad, you take the psychic test after the first unsaved wound is caused, and all attacks after that simply cause Instant Death. Yes, this means a single lucky Grey Knight Terminator can kill more multi-wound models than a Grand Master can.
After re-reading the rules for complex units and instant death, it seems to me that instant death has no relevance to wound allocation at all. It is after the wound allocation is finished and saves has been made that the special rule for instant death model removal occurs. So basically RayJ seems to be spot on.
Instant Death wounds must be allocated to unwounded models within a group if possible; that's really the only meaningful bit. So if there are, say, six Tyranid Warriors facing you and your Force Weapons are not yet "active," when you do six wounds, you kill two of them and nothing else. If your Force Weapons ARE active, on the other hand, you kill all six of them. Big difference.
Lols with brotherhood Champion...

Sword Storm: This is a pretty nice ability, if the Champion is alone in combat he can be in base to base contact with up to seven models after the defender reacts move or the pile in move. The way the ability is worded it also lets you “snipe” models, as you make a single attack against each enemy model in base to base contact with the Champion. Potentially this lets you eliminate enemy power fist or power weapons. If you assaulted and successfully cast Hammer Hand that could be a single W7 S5 hit that re-rolls to hit and to wound (against W4 T4 models that's a 79% chance of killing that PF). Or if you are fighting multiple wound models a single W7 S4 instant death hit that re-rolls to hit and wound (against a W4 T4 model that's a 66.6% chance of killing that PK nob).

I am doubtful, but the way the Perfect Warrior rules are worded Sword Storm could potentially be an out of sequence attack I.e. before other blows are struck, though this is most likely wishful thinking. If this were the case this ability would be even more terrifying.

Blade Shield: When you wipe out your opponent in your own assault phase it tends to be a short lived victory as you often find the large part of your enemies ranged weaponry pointed at you. With Blade Shield fret no more! Again this works best when the champion is alone. This will prevent him from winning combat as he will not make any attacks, however he will benefit from a 2+ armour save that can be re-rolled (97.2% chance of passing) and a 3++ (Thanks to his anointed blade/Nemesis Force Sword) invulnerable save that can also be re-rolled (88.9% chance of passing). That's 143 W4 S4 attacks, 36 W4 S4 PW attacks or 21 W4 S4 PF attacks on average to kill the Champion! The ultimate tar-pit?

Combine with inquisitor Karamazov's “By any means necessary” for extra fun.
2 replies · active 732 weeks ago
You make the attacks against models, but since they are wounds in CC you can allocate them as normal (unless it's an IC/separate unit.)

Charging in with just the Champion and Blade Shielding could be a really good trick, I think.
And even if all the champion does is Blade Shield, the rest of his units still get to reroll misses when charging. He's quite the buff to a squad.
SneakyDan's avatar

SneakyDan · 732 weeks ago

Psybolt ammunition on both raiders and storm ravens is a bad idea imo. Your shifting it away from being a str4 weapon, and therefor no longer defensive. Thats the advantage on both, being that a raven can still move 12" and fire everything, and a raider can move 6" and do the same.
3 replies · active 732 weeks ago
KingCronan's avatar

KingCronan · 732 weeks ago

I thought that too but then i tried it out one game and the thing cleaned house. you just gotta find the right place to park it.
Yeah, on Crusaders not so much. Stormravens can shoot more guns while mobile, though, and have better LOS to things.

I dunno, maybe it's just me being dumb, but I like the idea.
Stormravens can at least move 6" and fire everything and still 12" and fire two. It's really a massive anti-infantry platform though the TLCAC isn't too bad at anti-tank obviously.
*on the hurricane bolters, i should say.
Tratchenberg's avatar

Tratchenberg · 732 weeks ago

Pity the champion only has 1 wound, means even with re-roll saves one unlucky roll and he's down.
1 reply · active 732 weeks ago
Makes Crowe slightly more attractive.
wisdom like silence's avatar

wisdom like silence · 732 weeks ago

"-Halberd. Halberd halberd halberd. Halberd. The 'e' comes before the 'r' goddamn you."

Also, Daemon. Not deamon. A before e, damn it!
Is it abnormal that I get so demotivated of 40k because of the numerous tastelessly broken things in the GK codex?...
I mean, come on, there should be some kind of limits for common sense's sake.
5 replies · active 732 weeks ago
It's called points cost. =) Gk pay through the nose for what they get, and a properly equipped GK squad ends up being anywhere from 60-100% more expensive than their marine counterparts.
with standard equipment they won't cost that more compared to their marine counterparts, while still providing much more value for those points. and if you're not taking christmas tree death star units than you won't be outnumbered by a usual CSM force for example...
and I mean... the Psyfledread is SICK. (good bye arguments that GK is lacking at long range)
would I pay 10 pts for S8 on my Rifledreads? hell yeah!
Psyfledreads rock. At the same time you want dreads + dreadknights? Okay 195 point psyfledreads (though vens are funnn with fortitude). If you want a solid Troop; 295 points. SM pay 205. GH 185. BA 235. That builds up when most of those armies take ~3 at 2000 points.

Yes in terms of scaling, 4 points more than a marine for a force weapon, storm bolter and warp quake (+ other GK goodies compared to combat tactics) is rocking. But across the list it adds up.
maybe it's just me playing typically between 1500 and 1850 pts.
tournaments here in Hungary are also mostly of this point size.
I see your point that it adds up and you don't have to introduce GHs.
mentioning this, I've just checked the forthcoming 1850 tourney's participant list and it's 60% SW...
and it's just because the new GK codex is not yet allowed. :D I'm expecting them to fill up 30% soon to leave 10% for "other armies". I've recently switched from Imperial Fists to Heresy-era Imperial Fists (aka. BT...), as I run 6 Typhoons normally in 1850 and that makes difference. I ran Rifledreads with SM - I don't painfully miss them. If they were Psyfledreads though...
yea I know "why don't you change to GK then".
I'm simply a friend of diversity. ;-)
Agreeing with Biscuit here. Sure the stuff may look fancy, like a teleporting dreadknight, but it costs the same amount as a squad of five grey hunters, for one upgrade. Everything is really expensive, they will always be outnumbered (Except by taak).
I actually really like the Ordo Xenos inquisitor as a frontline asset. Give him power armor, both good grenades, 3 servo skulls and upgrade him to psyker for psychic communion and he's a nice reserve-helping guy that will make whatever squad he's joined to massacre in combat, for a small 102 points. He's probably the worst to stick with henchmen, but if you want someone to go help your GK smash face, he's your guy. Plasma syphon is also nice, especially on Gk squads, but not necessary.
Tecumseh Sherman's avatar

Tecumseh Sherman · 732 weeks ago

Stick that Hereticus BS10 thing with a Terminator squad loaded up with Psycannons. Now you may snipe psykers at will.

Another thing I realized, something I missed because it doesn't come up very often, but...

Assassins are WS/BS 8. That means the Vindicare, even with one shot, still has a very good chance to hit the target, with 2+ on the first shot, and a 4+ re-roll if he misses.

With the Culexus, same thing but he also has that BS 10 thing, so (also in the above), if he is firing at a psyker, that's a 2+ with a 2+ reroll. Time to die, Swarmlord.

It's a pity that Grey Knight squads count as a single psyker, or you could be busting out an insane amount of shots with the aminus speculum. Here's a question though. If a grey knight squad is in a rhino (the rhino counts as being a psyker as well), and it is within 12 inches to the culexus, does he get +2 shots for the rhino and the squad inside? If so, three rhinos and three squads, with a libby or other HQ within 12 inches means +7 shots. If he is firing at a psyker, that's even more.

Really crazy, but again, very short range.
4 replies · active 732 weeks ago
I was assuming that vehicles and squads counted as separate psykers, yeah. Also remember that henchmen Psykers are (presumably) psykers as well, so it's easy to net +16 shots off a single squad with them.
This is a matter so some contention, but the best set up you could have for a Culexus is Coteaz and 6 squads of 12 psyker henchmen, possibly in Chims. That's, like, 75 shots, plus any rhinos or other GKs you might.
72 shots will glance the SHIT out of some poor Rhino, I'll tell you what.
Vehicles are not psykers. They have the psyker pilot special rule, not psyker. They only count as being a psyker for psychic tests and psychic hoods ONLY.

This is very important if a dark eldar player busts out a crucible, but also means you cant count them as a psyker for a Culexus' gun.
You can also mastercraft psycannons. I overlooked this myself.
2 replies · active 732 weeks ago
On HQs it's generally not worth it, as their heavy weapons are grossly overpriced.

You cannot do so on "sarges" in squads, as they are not allowed to take the Psycannons. Note the wording: "One GREY KNIGHT in the squad may...", as opposed to the other upgrades which say "Any member of the squad may..."
The best place for this tends to be Paladins, I think.

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