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Wednesday, March 9, 2011

Thoughts on Centurion/NOVA format


I've been a big supporter of Mike's NOVA format but having only watched NOVA from the sidelines, Centurion was my first practical experience in this matter outside of test games. Time to get my thoughts down!

Obviously the major question is did I like it and enjoy myself? Absolutely. The next question is did the system do its job? I think it did. Most of the players who finished in the top 8 based on W/L record had hard games from Round 2 which knocked guys out who had the ability and lists to make it to Day 2. Round 3 there were simply no easy match-ups for those who were undefeated and obviously Rounds 4 and 5 were good players and good lists matched up against each other. Whilst I think Centurion had a skewed sample due to 'minimal' SW/BA/IG players compared to what is seen at other tournaments, hard matchups were had from Round 2 and this was based off of actual winning rather than how much you won by (except Billy; he played no one of any consequence ever. I mean seriously 2x Necrons and 3x Nids :P?).

Now fester did random pairings from Round 2 onwards whilst I think the majority of NOVA styled tournaments use seeded pairings after Round 1 to match the 'best' winner of Round 1 against the 'worst' winner, etc. Basically each Round the seeds are re-organised and the match ups based off of their overall score within the W/L bracket. I think this is preferable and whilst at large events it may give some players two 'easy' rounds compared to one, it still forces potentially tough games on the 'best' players and ensures good players with good lists will meet up further down the track. In a tournament where winning the games is important, it's important to be able to claim you had tough matches and beat good players and were therefore the best on the day/weekend. What's this paragraph of gibberish mean? I would HAVE preferred re-seeded pairings at Centurion to give that little bit of extra reliability and try and have the 'better' players meet later whilst still providing tough games in the earlier rounds. With a smaller event such as Centurion, Round 2 was always going to knock out some potential contenders but I'd love to see it in the future and look forward to seeing how this works at Event Horizon.

So summary of all that... I think the system works. You have the W/L bracket where people can aim to go undefeated (or have as few losses as possible) and do well. In the end it doesn't matter how much you beat your opponent by but how well you play the missions. This is very different from standard battle points which often rewards crushing your opponent and completely dominating on the table-top and therefore doesn't reward closely fought games between two good players/lists. This is reflected in this type of tournament as you don't have to consistently table your opponent (which also means armies which are less capable of tabling are not at a disadvantage). At the same time, losing doesn't mean your weekend is trashed as there is still the painting and overall side of things.

Let's get back to specifics and one of the main points of this article... NOVA opted to remove Kill Points and include Victory Points as the tertiary objective (needing 250+ more than your opponent to win) whilst Centurion used the pick 5 KP system by Stelek. Mike has moved NOVA back to straight up KP and Event Horizon is using KP margins (need 2 more KP than your opponent to win this objective). I was a big fan of the 5 KP system but after lots of practice and then the actual tournament, I don't think it does what we want it to do or what it was designed to do. The main issue many have with KP is it handicaps MSU armies and benefits KP denial armies which for all intents and purposes, are bad (think Nob Bikers). In a tournament setting, a good general with an MSU army could meet a bad KP denial army in an early round with KP as the primary and have a very difficult time winning as there is such a huge discrepancy in potential KP for both armies. The 5 KP system aimed to adjust this by maximising the number of KP each army can have (it maxes at 5 btw...) but in the end I feel it doesn't help re-balance the system. KP denial armies virtually need to be tabled to access all 5 KP or at the very least, claiming their 5 KP can be quite difficult. On the other hand, most MSU armies generally have quite easy KP across the board which still leaves MSU based armies on the back foot and gives the KP denial army more tactical options. This therefore doesn't appear to be addressing the discrepancy seen in KP missions between these two types of lists.

However, when games come down to MSU v MSU armies or even more 'traditional' lists with less KP whilst still maintaining balance and not actively seeking KP denial, I think this system is much more capable of working. A certain amount of tactical acumen is required to identify targets which you need to kill and are also essential to your opponent's gameplan. Furthermore, by choosing certain units generals must understand how  this might affect their opponent's gameplan and how they will act accordingly. Same in the reverse. If a unit is picked as a KP will you play it more defensively or still throw it in your opponent's face? If you are holding an aggressive unit back because it has been picked as a KP your opponent has altered your game plan and can seek to gain from it. At the same time, using your aggressive unit aggressively opens up that KP to your opponent and since there are only 5 maximum KP, potentially provides an advantage to your opponent. In the end the 5 KP system adds an excellent game mechanic when the right lists are involved but doesn't address the key imbalance the normal KP rules generate.

Long story short: I know I asked for this in Centurion and was pleased fester implemented it but after quite a number of games with the system using various lists and against various opponents I think normal KP (or KP margin) is currently the better way to go (unless someone else comes up with a genius idea). I know the imbalance issue is still there and adding in the 5 KP mechanic can make for much more interesting games between MSU lists but I feel since it doesn't really address the imbalance issue advocates of MSU play point out, it changes the way the game is played. This is great as I think it does it for the better (more thinking = better games right?) but in a tournament setting where we are trying to be as close to the rulebook as possible, I think for the moment the standard KP template is a better option.

I'd love to hear opinions on this from those who have used this system (both in casual play and at tournaments) and what TO's who have used the 5 KP mechanic in their tournaments have noticed and/or felt. I'm happy to be proven wrong here; as I said, I think adding another tactical dimension to the game is great but I think at its core, it doesn't address the imbalance perceived between KP denial lists and MSU lists in KP based games.

Again, great tournament by fester and I am pleased to say I still support the NOVA system and hopefully see many more tournaments like this in Australia and around the world. Thanks Mike *wink*!

Comments (32)

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5x5 by Stelek is a good idea, but after playing it in practice and in tournament, I believe it helps MSU more.
In my opinion, KP with margin is both simple (no picking require) and reduce the benefit of MSU.
Imagine if you will keep spawning if it was a straight KP game, or have 25 weak KP if it was a straight KP game. You might still do it, but you will be more careful about how to do it.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
willydstyle's avatar

willydstyle · 733 weeks ago

You mean Stelek, the King of MSU army design, created a system which highly favors MSU army builds? Say it ain't so!
My comment on the 5x5 with MSU. I ran a MSU army. No argument there, right? Ok, so for KPs, say someone picks my trukks. I can happily reserve, and also hide my trukks all game. I can throw my whole army away just to protect those 5 trukks.

Now, imagine I was playing the aforementioned Nob Bikerz. And you picked 2 squads of nob bikerz, and 2 warbosses, and a squad of lootas. Well, I don't have the option of effectively "not playing" with the KPs you have chosen. Where's that leave me?

Just saying, I think the 5x5 does have it's advantages for MSU armies, and it's not quite that clear cut. For example, it's why I chose your raveners, as I knew you would have to bring them forward and try for my troops, otherwise you wouldn't have been able to get near them (:.

I think, with the 5x5, it's much better to go for something the opponent can't play without (for example, 2 LRs, 2 termy squads) than it is to go for an "easy" KP. Maybe I'm too tired, but I don't think you addressed that. (:
2 replies · active 733 weeks ago
Hey, I chose the ravs too... great minds huh... *wink wink*
True which is why I think MSU v MSU with the 5 KP system is good. It adds an extra layer of tactical thought.

All of that is much easier to pick in MSU or 'traditionally' based armies however. Both opponents have these options. I could of kept the Raveners back and picked your Trukks as well which would of meant no tank shocking off objectives or my Ravs are counter-attack only. Against KP denial lists the KP chosen aren't really going to affect the game as those units need to be neutralised regardless.

Sure MSU armies have the advantage in tactical flexibility...but they always have that which is a core concept of MSU armies and I don't think they gain anything within the 5 KP system against KP denial lists. Sure KP denial lists don't exactly have an advantage as now the KP of the MSU army can be hid as has been suggested but the KP denial list still has an inherent advantage.

Does that make sense?
Kirby, if I'm not mistaken, NOVA 2011 mission primer has KP-margins being used. With a +3 margin needed for victory. Mind you, I play both an 9 kill point Deathwing list at 2k, and a 20 kill point tau list at 2k, so I feel both sides. Anyway, I think the margin-KP is the way to go, provided there are secondary and tertiary objectives that come into play. Basically, in the NOVA format, the margin-KP system balances things out by allowing ties (and giving a decent chance of a tie), than the secondary objective kicks in. So, my 20 KP tau list is at a small disadvantage against a 9 KP list, but I can still work hard for a tie so it goes to a secondary objective that favors me.

I have never played the 5x5 style so I can't comment to much... but my feeling is that it is more favorable to the MSU armies for the reasons already stated. Personally, I don't think they need any help as the only real downside to MSU armies is Kill point missions.
I think player perception continues to play a huge part in this debate.

If you want to play MSU then there are a whole host of advantages that come along with that style of build. The downside being that individual units are often very easy to destroy, and while this has very little effect on your overall damage output you can lose KPs fast. That's not an imbalance, that's what you could call a balance.

If there was no downside to MSU then it would be the only way to go in big tournaments. As it stands medium and small KP armies are viable because their KPs are much harder to kill off.

Interesting to read your comments about the 5 by 5 mind you. Just goes to show how good a job you have to do with rules to stop the players breaking them five minutes after they're published.

The studio must eat their fingers when they release a new edition of a game!
I've been against simple KPs for a long time be honest. A 35 pt rhino and a Land Raider being of equal points costing just seemed a bit dumb to me and honestly never felt it could be considered balanced. Speaking to Mike the other week in chatbox (why do most stories begin with that nowadays?), he gave his thoughts behind selecting KPs for Nova (KP magins anyways). After the discussion, I'm sort of coming round to his way of thinking.

Terminators + Land raider come in over 450 points and are therefore likely to be ~25% of any list they're in. They will only offer-up 2 Kill points. Compared this to BA ASM in Razorbacks. 3 x 5 man units with Melta/IP and flamerbacks com in at 435 pts and 6 kill points. Yes, BA offer up 3 times more kill points, but equally, every loss to BA has significantly less impact on the output of the list. Dropping 1 or 2 units in the BA will not have a HUGE impact on BA's ability to win the game. In reverse, losing either the Terminators or the Land Raider SERIOUSLY nerfs the functioning of the SM list.

When you look at this on a larger scale it has even more impact. SW MSU lists are likely to have 16+ units. Each one of these can shoot at something difference. The more units, the more targets you can impact upon. Your list isn't reliable on any of these units specifically and the loss of some of them doesn't overtly affect you output. The SM KP denial list will be able to target fewer units and the loss of each one of these significantly reduces the output so as the game progresses the game equals itself out. The KP denial list affects fewer and fewer of your units, whereas the MSU list - which will probably be losing mid game - can still harm many more units.

MSU lists can also reserve those fragile units that will give up easy KPs for them to turn up later when there is less threat to them.

The 5 KP choosing method has it's benefits, but seriously harms lists. Your Tyranids for example. In our Vassal game the Tervigons are obvious targets and the Ravs had to be tackled. This makes them KPs that I'll be hitting early anyway and you can't really afford to reserve them. Comparing them to the land speeders/razorbacks/small units usually selected - because they can relatively easily be dropped - all of which can be reserved without too much impact on their list. Marines seem to do better with this as each of their units have reasonable duality. Xenos armies tend to have specialised units and achieve duality with the 1+1 thingy - See Guard, Eldar, DE, Tau...

All have their benefits but none are perfect. I'm currently on the side of VPs, but I am coming round to KPs however.
3 replies · active 733 weeks ago
Good insight. I think if you combine your 2nd and 3rd paras with what GDMNV is saying above gives a nice holistic answer. I am also not a huge fan of straight up KP and I can 'live' with KP margins but I certainly think GDMNV has a point regarding balance. I think the issue comes when people actively seek out KP denial lists which are quite bad outside of KP missions. In a tournament setting if you have a KP round early or somehow a KP denial list makes it to round 3/4 where the KP mission is, they might not deserve to be there but the mission allows them to potentially advance assuming player skill is equal.

That obviously assumes the KP denial list was much better than his previous opponents (so perhaps should be there) or had easy opponents early, etc. but in the end I think these lists are the crux of the issue regarding KP missions.

I'm in the same camp as you, I never really liked KP as I thought VP was a more accurate reflection of 'damage inflicted' to opponent but over the course of 5th edition I think they are an important balancing factor like GDMNV points out, just some people try to 'game' the system with KP denial lists which are normally terrible but have some advantages in KP missions.
I'd add that rock lists, or even 'normal' non MSU lists have a KP advantage over MSU lists in terms of their KPs. You don't need to specifically aim for KP denial to have fewer KPs in your army than MSU does.
I agree and think as you said above, this is balance as those lists are generally good but are at a disadvantage in objective games. I think the issue of imbalance comes up with lists actively seeking to deny KP ala Nob Bikers.
Killswitch's avatar

Killswitch · 733 weeks ago

I've always been a KP fan (as many of you know from my rants)> Glad to see Kirby and a few others are finnaly coming round and seeing the balance that is KP's. Don't get me wrong, its not perfect, no method is (as stated above by Kirby), but as also stated, its perhaps the best for tourney play.

Great article
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
Agreed, its one of the reasons MSU never got a ton of traction in our area up here as KPs in a tournament setting really hurts MSU. Despite the assertations of lots of folks who stand by MSU, in a straight up KP mission, you ARE at a disadvantage. Therefore, up here, to make true all-comers tournament lists, people started moving away from MSU.
I think VP are probably the better way to go, but if you're GOING To go with KP, it's as a nod to the large # of people who (and it's fully their right / opinion oriented) believe KP is an important mechanic for balance and gameplay.

When you consider that, going with Nominate 5 does the OPPOSITE of what KP fans want. Problematically, straight KP still has major balance issues of its own by virtue of the fact that the KP differential between armies when you pull the KP round is going to be vastly different from table to table, meaning everyone is playing a different mission.

So, we use KP margin (win by 3+), b/c it allows you to play for the tie if you don't think you can win out on it due to the massive differential, just like every other NOVA goal does - easily tieable goals that still maintain their integrity in terms of their general game impact. Quarters by VP plays a lot like Capture and Control (though I would argue is a strong mission in general, and less insta-tie), 5 objectives plays like ... well, 5 objectives; KP by 3 plays just like KP, instead of antithetical to it like nominate-5-KP.
2 replies · active 733 weeks ago
I'm a big fan of "win by 3 KP" in terms of your format.
willydstyle's avatar

willydstyle · 733 weeks ago

However it also means that if you're using an army with lots of KPs vs. an army with few KPs, you have just that much more discrepancy.
In short - if you don't care about the actual effect of the basic KP mission in designing your goals, why are you using such a hamfisted mechanic AT ALL? Just use VP. If you care about retaining KP to mollify the KP-liking crowd, then you should not change how KP actually functions in the first place.
Staurikosaurus's avatar

Staurikosaurus · 733 weeks ago

Instead of either method why not use a percentage system? Kill points obtained divided by Kill Points available x 100; or if you need a smaller representative value, x10. This would work for all army types regardless of style.
MSU build players are going to want a system that limits the KP they can give up because it favors their armies. Low KP armies aren't going to like it. I think that we should go to the main rules - whether we like it or not. The rules for missions are - Multiple objectives (favors MSU builds), Two Objectives (basically neutral), and KP's (favors low KP builds). It balances out.

I'm REALLY jazzed about what the America's Team Challenge that Dicehead Seige is doing in May has for mission.

One mission - that has all three of the above conditions for victory. Seems to be the ultimate mission for tournaments - your army needs to do it all.
I'm not sure what the win by 3+ system means. Say I have 9 KP to give and my opponent has 20. If I kill 11 of his units and hide my last unit, I win? But if I kill 10, it is a tie? The 20 KP player would have to lose 5 units or less then to win (otherwise would have to go for the table)
1 reply · active 733 weeks ago
Basically you need to have 3+ KP over your opponent. Say your opponent kills 8 of your units. To win based on KP you'd need to kill at least 11. If you killed 10 or say 6, then you'd go onto the next mission parameter if it's a tiered system. Or if you had only killed 5 or less units than your opponent would win.
This is largely correct; remember, though, that in a NOVA system there ARE no ties. Tying a goal just pushes the determiner to the next goal. Since KP denial lists struggle much more at missions like objectives, it's not necessarily in their favor to simply have an easy time tying the KP-by-3 mission ... they actually have to win it; it doesn't make it any easier for a higher KP army to win KP against a lower KP army ... it's not like it should.
1 reply · active 733 weeks ago
Which is a key point of the NOVA-styled missions. You want to force ties on the mission parameters your army is at a disadvantage on to move the true winning condition to something you'd prefer. In the case of MSU v KP denial lists, KP denial lists want to move the winning condition to KP whilst MSU armies want objectives, etc.

This is why I like the system so much and <3 Mike =D. Bromance!
5 KP's is the reason I didn't attend Centurion (and won't ever attend a tourny that has it). It promotes a certain type of build and thereby reduces the variety of lists that you would normally see (I know Cent had variety but that's more to do with attracting players who'd play in any tourny because there are so few they can attend locally).

Shame, since I actually like the idea of the rest of the format.
2 replies · active 733 weeks ago
Well, are you coming to Event Horizon?
I fly up to Rocky, it is much cheaper to fly to Syd from Bris.
And I have chicken pox to proof I was *tough* (not)
Sorry mate - I can only do so many interstate trips each year and High Lords and 40k Masters (hopefully) are the ones planned for this year.
Lurking Horror's avatar

Lurking Horror · 733 weeks ago

I'd be curious whether a percentage kill points system would work out for a tournament setting. For example, if you kill twelve of your opponent's fifteen units (12/15 = 80%) and your opponent kills ten out of your twelve units (10/12 = 83.33%), you have a narrow loss by percentages.

It may be a silly idea, but I'd be interested to see other people's opinions.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
+1 - very interesting idea!
I've always advocated a killed + surviving KP system. As in, you get KPs both for the enemy units you've killed and each KP of your own that survives.

So let's say I play a 7 KP Shrike Terminator list with a 17 KP Guard army and do 4 KP of damage, while losing 6 KP of my own troops. My score would be 4 + 11 = 15, while his would be 6 + 3 = 9.

If you work out the progression, this scoring system gives an initial boost to the MSU list, but as the game gets closer the advantage goes to the Elite list. So if the elite list can kill > 50% of the MSU's units, it'll win. Which balances things without making the elite list auto-win every annihilation game.
1 reply · active 733 weeks ago
I'd be interested to see some graphs on that Sandwyrm. Would you kindly :) ?
Kirby, why are you saying that KP harming MSU is a bad thing? I thought that was the whole point of KP, and the way that the missions in the rulebook are designed ... you have to balance your army to deal with both objectives and kill points.
1 reply · active 733 weeks ago
See comments above. I don't think it's a bad thing but I think when bad armies (KP denial armies) have inherent advantages over good lists (regardless if they are MSU or not), it's bad for balance. As GDMNV points out though, if you ignore that aspect KP is the balancing factor which I'm happy with. It's the KP denial lists that I feel throws the balance out of whack enough to make people consider changing KP around.

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