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Thursday, March 10, 2011

Incoming Rant: I apologise in advance

There are very few things that get me infuriated in the world of 40k. Several of my recent comments in threads here, here and here have been a little bit ranty and for that I apologise. Well, sort of anyway. What do all of the linked threads have in common? They're about 'count-as' armies. In reality, my infuriation has very little to do with 'count-as' armies specifically, but more about 'fun'. Hopefully I'll link the two through my ramblings.

*If you're not interested in my 'about me', skip to the next red bit down below*

I'll start with a little bit of an introduction as I don't have one here on 3++ yet. I'm in my mid-twenties and have been interested in 40k for over 15 years. I didn't play/paint/collect for a significant part of that (~10 years), but have always kept in touch with GW stuff.
When I first played I was a standard newbie that jumped from army to army. In 2 years I 'collected' Necromunda Goliath and Escher gangs, WFB Dwarves and Orcs n' Goblins, 40k Orks and some space marines. I never had a fully painted army, but had a blast every time I played. I'm not sure I ever actually won a game to be honest. I do know for a fact I never complained about how beardy, cheesy, WAAC a list I was beaten by was however.

Ten years down the line, I've played for at a semi-professional football club, completed a very competitive degree and am considered one of the more competitive individuals in my profession. Not in a way that I harm the opportunities of others, but in a way that I make the most of my own. All of my friends are or were serious football or rugby players and have all done well in their respective professions. In short, I'm a competitive person in a generally competitive world.

I initially started collecting Black Templars because of how cool they looked. I wanted to just play and was never bothered about playing. I found my way into the forums on Bolter and Chainsword to get some tips on how to paint and what to equip my marines with. I don't know why, because I genuinely wasn't interested in playing. Needless to say, a lot of the advice I was given was pretty bad. This really doesn't bother me, because I met some great individuals (Messanger of Death, Marshals Laeroth and Wilhelm to name a few) along the way. I still love the forum and plan to get back into it when my internet is finally sorted next week (horay!). MoD was probably the most important person in getting me to where I am now. He introduced me to YTTH. At first, I hated the blog and thought Stelek was an utter jerk. My opinion now is very much the opposite, and along with many others I think he's probably one of the most influential members in the 40k community. In a good way may I add.

What has this got to do with having fun you may ask. Hold on, hold on... we're getting there.

Two years ago, I moved away for a year and found myself in Brighton. If any of you find yourself there, you're a very lucky person. They have some great players and a very welcoming community. There are some utter tools, but we'll get onto why later. I started to play some games. I'd been reading YTTH quite a bit by this point and had a few tricks up my ceramite armour sleeve, but nothing compares to in-game experience. I got beaten. And again. And again. And many more times if I'm being honest. My opponents did however mention that I was a very challenging opponent for somebody that had just started out. I was playing a reasonbly fluffy list against some of the UKs top 10 players. In my first 10 games I eeked out a win or two and perhaps another 2 draws. I enjoyed the wins no more than I enjoyed the losses. That's what being competitive is all about, having fun learning and developing.

*Skip to here*

That's the key. I enjoyed playing the game. Nothing more, nothing less. If you only enjoy wins, then I feel very sorry for you.

I currently play very little sadly. My 'free' time is rarely free due to work/gym/girlfriend/booze etc. When I do get to play I tend to take whatever is available. This is more often than not teaching somebody else how to play or playing somebody's 'fluffy' army. I'm quite happy to do this. I'd be more happy playing a competitive game (roll on Vassal on my new i'webz), but I'm happy playing anything, as long as I know what I'm getting myself in for. I will note: You having fun is NOT my responsibility. I will communicate with you before a game how I'd like to play. If you or I aren't happy, then we won't play. So, I have a responsibilty to communicate with you in an adult manner, but after that, you having fun is your responsibility. I'm not going to go out of my way to stop you having fun, quite the opposite, if you're not a total asshat, I'm sure we'll have a blast together.

There are two things outside of this 'contract' as Mike Brandt would put it that infuriate me about 40k players. One is their constant whining. The other is their inability to understand rules. I don't mean getting rules wrong, we all do that, but understanding what rules mean.

Warhammer 40k is a game. It's fluff. It's models. It's fun. The first three can or cannot co-exist. As long as it's always fun, it shouldn't matter. I had fun when I used to use pieces of paper to represent blocks of infantry in my WFB playing days. If I can have fun with pieces of paper, why do people complain so much?

I'm not going to claim 40k is completely balanced. Some codices are a bit stronger than others. 90% of codices however (and I'm only really discounting Necrons - and probably a little unfairly) can produce a competitive list. This list may not win a super-competitive tournament like Nova, but will most certainly compete at local tournaments and tournaments like Centurion - see Billy's Orks. So why-o-why is there so much crying 'CODEX CREEP'? IG, SW and BA are strong codices, but are not the 3 most recent. Tyranids and DE are 2 of the 3 most recently released codices and get a lot of criticism for being sub-par. So where is this 'creep'? Seems a bit up/downy to me. If you cried 'LOYALIST CREEP', I may agree. If you whine about WH, Tau, BT, DA being crap, then one, learn to 40k and understand, these codices were designed for a DIFFERENT game, called 4th Edition. You want the game to evolve? Then some things you just have to suck up.

Then it comes to the cries of 'beardy', 'cheesy' and all of the other dumb terms that aforementioned jerks cry. Tournaments without independant/named characters. Tournaments with limitations on units. Tournaments with local (idiotic) players scoring lists and handi-capping you. What is this? It's certainly not Warhammer 40,000. I have never played a unit that I thought was beardy or cheesy. What does it mean? Covered in facial hair? A whiff of fromage? An over-powered unit? I know of none of these in 40k. None. Not one. Thunderwolf Cavalry are a strong unit, but I've dropped many in my time. Nob bikers are strong in combat, but they're reasonably fragile. Thunderhammer terminators... again, I've had very little trouble dispatching them. So where are these overpowered units? Mephiston? I've played against him 3-4 times and in 3 of those he was dropped with a total loss on my part of 160 points. Over 3 games. Go figure. So where the hell are these beardy/cheesy units? Please STFU as Kirby would say.

So codex creep doesn't exist and cheesy units are non-existent units in 5th Edition. What else can people cry about? WAAC. This bloody term... *shakes fist*. I don't get this term? Does a RL army not want to Win at all Costs? If you mean I'm cheating then, one, that's different, that's cheating and two, fuck you, I don't cheat (*puts 10p in the swear box*). Cheaters should be kicked in the balls. Competitive players should be commended. Winning is fluffy you bloody idiot. If you don't like my list that's your problem, I told you I was playing competitively before the game. Fluff is a bonus in competitive game. I can play competitively, fluffily and teach. I do them all having fun. That's right. Playing competitively is FUN. Just because you're unable to do it, doesn't mean it's not fun for the rest of us. That's the problem with Fluff nazis. They can't play competitively, so they don't like to see you doing so. Some fluffy players have been some of the biggest WAAC (read:cheats) I've ever played against, so don't give me that Compeitive vs Fun shit. They're not mutually exclusive. I play football competitively and have fun. Work is competitive and fun. Why can't 40k be both? Oh that's right... you can't compete so you want to make me feel bad about being able to do so.

So, people whining is my first point. If you find you whine about 40k as much as you play it... why don't you stop? There are plenty of other games out there, stop ruining 40k for us.

40k is a rule set. Nothing more. It is a set of guidelines of how to play out a game in an organised, fair manner. The codices printed by Games Workshop are supplements to this rule book. The book has fluff. The book has models (pics). The book has rules. Peoples' understanding and interpretation of these rules is the biggest problem. The rules give us a cost for a model/set of models that play a part within a collection of models from the same book. That's it. The rules associated with this book are representative of fluff, but nothing more. Such rules tend to be universal rules, that are paid for in the points cost of each unit. Hence why the same units in different codices are different costs.

Let's look at the example of Codex: Blood Angels. A unit of Assault Marines costs 100 points for 5 members. You want to add 5 more? 2 meltaguns and a powerfist? Go for it. That totals 235 points. That's 235 points for 10 men that are the same size as a space marine, have a ranged weapon and a combat weapon. These guys can re-roll reserve rolls if deep-striking and only roll 1d6 for scatter. There is a 1/6 that at the beginning of the game, the benefit from 2 extra USRs. They can be red, green, pink or even blue with lightning bolts. They can have jump packs, feathered wings or bat wings. If the model is of a similar size that's fine. A competition would state that a bolt pistol or whatever weapon should be present, but IMO if the weapon differences (BP vs Meltagun) are obvious, then I'm happy. The 1/6 roll may represent red thirst, black hunger, green urination. I genuinely couldn't care less. Rules are rules and nothing more.


Vince's Night Lords are WYSIWYG. They're modeled appropriately. Therefore they're within the rules and are therefore legal to play in ANY warhammer 40k game. If you disagree, then you deserve a kick in nuts my friend. I'm right. I am. At this point I should stop, they're within the rules. In this case the list is even more 'fluffy' than the 'correct' codex choice. "Night Lords with Red Thirst... ROFL" I hear you cry. What? This is a game of imagination and fantasy. You can't believe that some angry marines spurred on by the Gods of Chaos can't be a little angry in an assault or more resistant to injury through shear determination? Then shame on you. It seems that the 'for fun' players are ruining it for hobbyists that want to compete. So why are they deemed 'for fun' players? Doesn't seem very fun to me...

You want to stick kroot hands and heads on marine bodies with some supe'd-up Kroot rifles to represent bolters? go for it. Kudos to you, that sounds awesome. These 'fluff' nazis are the ones spoiling the game, not 'competitive' players. Most competitive players I know on the internet are actually massive hobby enthusiasts. The key theme is that they enjoy the game.

The complainers are the ones that whine that 'we're spoiling the fun in the game'. I say that 'We're having fun in every aspect of the hobby. You're the one not enjoying yourself. I wonder why.'

Sorry for the length of the rant. Bring on the tl:dr's. I now know how Taak feels.

Comments (113)

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Couldn't agree more. Well said Brother Loring.
Really good post BroLo, I coultn't describe better how I feel about the game.

Count As is the best thing to have fun. I've got a ton of marines, what army do I want to play them as to have have fun today. I've been using my Chaos as Space Marines, Space Wolfs, Dark Angels and Blood Angels for the past 2 years because I was getting bored of only playing Chaos. I can change the lists around but it's not the same as playing a completly different codex.

Even when I start a brand new army (Space Marine Bikers) I convert everything so that they have a chaos feel to them because thats what I like. My 2 biker command squads will never play in an other army then Space Marines but I like the look so they look like chaos. I have fun converting my models so they look like I want, not like the book said they should look. Then I have fun playing them because they are what I feel like playing. Everything is WYSIWIG so even if I go to tournaments nobody can say anything (hopefully they'll say nice job).
3 replies · active 733 weeks ago
One of the best articles on this site. Well done BroLo.
10 replies · active 732 weeks ago
Agreed on all counts - the fact that GW seem to retro-fit a goodly chunk of their own background with each release should at least give folks a hint at how flexible this stuff is.

Oh... and Brighton -is- a brilliant place (just not quite as good as Bristol :P).
1 reply · active 733 weeks ago
Roland Durendal's avatar

Roland Durendal · 733 weeks ago

GARGHH! What the fuck is a tl:dr?

Other than that, I agree whole heartedly and if made a similar case back in August when Justin (aka DashofPepper) was having drama at his local club.
3 replies · active 733 weeks ago
black matt's avatar

black matt · 733 weeks ago

Awesome, one of my first times here and thanks further rea cool!
Plus_Four's avatar

Plus_Four · 733 weeks ago

Oh my! What a whiney rant! I had to go back up to your introduction just to check how old you were! Please re-read your article and then try and work out who's whining more.

Yet another article justifying why you're not a douche WAAC because you want to counts as a powerful codex when your own choice of army already has one!

You stated above that 90% of codices can produce a competitive army list so go ahead and build one with your codex.

Night Lords are Chaos and so if you want jump troops you can have 30 of them in the form of Raptors. They get a champ with weapon upgrades and 2 special weapons. Not good enough or fluffy enough? Is it because you want them to be scoring? Cheaply costed? Optimised?

Don't forget - you posted your views here in public so don't get your knickers n a twist because people disagree with you.

It's my game as much as yours and so I can interpret how to have fun in my own way.

Grow up and grow a set please.
18 replies · active 732 weeks ago
Spot on brolo - one of the better arguments for count as and just getting stuck in as I've seen around.
I can't believe there are folks in this HOBBY who who have issues with counts-as. As long as something is done well and is easy to translate, then why not? I saw a pretty cool Genestealer Cult army that used the Ork's Codex. Part of my flinched as seeing Genestealer Nobs, but the army worked well enough.

If it all becomes overwhelming, then take notes or ask for a copy of the list.

Regarding the term WAAC. Folks, especially BoLs, have redefined that term to mean CHEATING. Many also have been assigning the same implication to the term Powergaming.

I often question the motives of people who vilify folks who Play to Win... oh yeah, that is their code for cheaters as well. What can we call competitive gamers? Those Who Refuse to Yield to Peer Pressure to Suck? TWRtYtPPtS?
3 replies · active 733 weeks ago
I just want to say I'm totally on the fence about "count as" For me it has to be done well and make sense and I fully support that these armies and feeld they have a place on the table. Bringing a painted Ultramarine Army and telling me it's Space Wolf is not count as. That makes no sense.

The Whine/problem/rage/tears lie with people automatically assuming that "count as" armies ignore their current codex to make a competitive list based on a newer powerful codex rules and options. - That's not always the case. The "count as" armies let people expand on the lore behind the army to make a more accurate representation of the force.

Look at how many "count as Grey Knight" armies you know about. I know none, no one really plays then as they ain't too great - Watch how many appear after the codex drops. They seem powerful, people want a piece of the action but smart people are being creative and in all fairness are making perfect sense (For the record, Thousands Sons as Grey Knights sounds awesome, if you can't understand that then you need to learn to lore. Seriously) they're nut abusing the game, it's simply that new changes are allowing them to make an cool alternative army.

Look at the current Chaos Codex for Chaos Marines and all the Traitor Chapters.... Look at when it was written and think about the lore of those chapters. Now look at the current Space Marine Codex, and the 2 (soon to be 3) Chapter Specific Codexes.... Are you honestly trying to bullsh*t that the Chaos codex provides a fair and accurate representation for army variations? Players should stick by their codex for custom army idea and themes?
THEMED ARMIES ARE SOME OF THE FLUFFIEST ARMIES OUT THERE!!!
1 reply · active 733 weeks ago
willydstyle's avatar

willydstyle · 733 weeks ago

I want to play Chaos because I love the background and the fluff for the Black Legion. However, I don't much like Plague Marines or Obliterators, so I use BA rules to run a *more powerful* list using my Chaos models, using rules that fit their fluff just as well, IMO. Every time I hear someone say "you just want to use more powerful rules," I respond, "so what?" If you want to deny your opponent the ability to play the best army he can, just because of the paint job on his models, who is really the "WAAC" player here?
6 replies · active 733 weeks ago
he he he, yeah, i agree, just 'cos you suck doesnt mean i have to!!

I've never had a problem with 'counts as' but i dont see it that often. As long as i know what Codex im playing im generally happy.

As for the 'Fluff Nazi' issue, well that really makes me see red! Why? Well see line 1! Theres a guy at my club whos constantly on about armies being to 'cheesy'. I swear, if he says anything about my awesome Elysian army again, in going to show him how cheesy my Vulture Gunships with Punisher Cannons are by caving in his face with them!!

Ah, thats better..........
gx540@hotmail.com's avatar

gx540@hotmail.com · 733 weeks ago

Awww, don't feel bad. This is way shorter and better written than Taak's drivel.

To the point, I agree. Fuck fluff nazis. Acting like the desire of victory is a bad thing is what pussies do.
To a certain extent the notion of beardy is a holdover from older versions of the game. A few editions ago 40k functioned more like Apocalypse, in that part of the game balance was explicitly intended to be supplied by following the fluff. There were armies and combinations that one was not supposed to field, because that wasn't the way the army was meant to be played. As time has gone on GW has moved more and more away from this model of game balance, but there are plenty of us still playing who remember it. And I don't think this idea has gone away entirely; while GW has gotten much better, codexes are still not perfectly balanced internally or between each other. If you build an army designed purely to take advantage of flaws in a given codex then yeah, you can expect to take some grief for it.

WAAC is something else entirely, in my book. It is far more about attitude than lists. You can use a lousy list and still be a win at all costs player; you're just bad it.
great article (and thanks for the sneaky link, haha).

i was worried about this a few days ago, until i read the responses to my post. then i thought, sod it, i am going to love creating this army, its going to look awesome, it has robots, lions, orange monkeys, and it will win games.
I pretty much agree with you, except on the Counts-As thing up to a point. I like counts-as armies that represent armies that don't have existing rules, like AdMech, Traitor Guard (which is pretty much just IG with a different paint job and mutation bits), and the Kroot Marines you suggested. I dislike counts-as armies that substitute an army that already exists for another one that already exists. Blood Angels as Night Lords, or Space Wolves as Tzeentch CSM, or Space Wolves as Word Bearers, or what have you - it feels to me like it's bending the spirit of the game, all in the name of 'I want an army that wins more than what I would normally play'. The argument that it "feels more like" the modeled army tends to be secondary to wanting a codex considered higher-powered.

Now, that said, I can't say that people who play counts-as armies are bad people or are ruining the game or the like. What they're doing is perfectly legal (as long as everything's WYSIWYG), and in some cases they get to really show creativity in painting and modeling. (The person who plays an unpainted generic SM army and plays it as the codex du jour, that's a different matter.) I personally am not a fan, and I wouldn't do it myself, but it's not really my place to determine how other people play.
11 replies · active 732 weeks ago
Willydstyle gets to the point as usual, great comment.

The article was too much written in anger, choosing sides and trying to pick a fight. One of the great things that Kirby does is remaining cool and objective.
3 replies · active 733 weeks ago
Andy Akins's avatar

Andy Akins · 733 weeks ago

A bit more angsty than I would have said it - but pretty much spot on.

And this is from someone who considers himself in the Fluffy camp :)

*I* would never use an alternative codex. *I* would never build a list made up of _only_ the best units that run against the fluff that has been presented in various books. *I* don't analyze the rules and design my army for every advantage that can be squeezed out.

However, *I* also would never judge another player who chooses to do those things. And I would happily play against him/her every time, as long as they were friendly and not mean. It means that I lose a fair amount :) But that's fine, as long as I'm having fun. But telling someone that they're somehow "wrong" even though they're following the rules? Nah, that's stupid. It's a game.

Really, I just don't like players who are mean. On either side of the argument. Those in the fluffy camp would attack those who want to build an uber-competitive list or a counts-as army... jerks, everyone of them. But equally loathed by me are the die-hards who give me grief because I have built some sub-optimal list or chosen something that they "know" is "wortheless","sucks",or is just plain stupid. So what? It's my damn army. If I want to play that way, who are you to say otherwise? Now if I'm whining about losing - that's another issue ('cause if you want to win, that's _your_ responsibility to make/play a winning force - not the responsibility of your opponent to come down to your level).

All in all, it's a game. People should just play. And have fun.
2 replies · active 733 weeks ago
Why is it that people who complain bother you so much? If they're ruining 40k for you, why is it such a stretch that you're ruining it for them?
1 reply · active 733 weeks ago
<3 Brolo, need a hug?
2 replies · active 733 weeks ago
You made this rant because you DO love winning and you cant find a way to win regularly which pisses you off so you make out you just play the game for fun. Go back to the forums where this belongs, leave the blogosphere for the real hobbyist - please.
3 replies · active 733 weeks ago
I love you dude e-hug
2 replies · active 733 weeks ago
I believe you can play whatever you want as long as you aren't making rules up on the spot, and I won't really have a problem with it.

OTOH, I'm sorry, but 'articles' just like this are the reason I keep away from that 'other' forum, and would hate for someone new to see this rant as one of the first topics they read. I actually agree with pretty much everything he says, and have championed the Counts-As army in multiple postings over several sites, but there was no reason for this to be anything more than a (rather long) reply to one of the many other Counts-As articles that have been on the site in the past two weeks.
I am tickled, pink, that guys who complain about 'people want to win are evil - boo hiss!'
are on a blog to help people to play better.

I guess if they win as a result of 3++ they will start wearing hessian undies?

'I hate winning *gags* I didn't mean it, it was an accident! I'm sohohohorraay' *breaks down crying*

Wonders never cease.
2 replies · active 733 weeks ago
Said it better than I could BroLo (now I don't have to).

Fuck the haters and fluff nazis. (quarter to the 3++ swear jar). Play what you want to so you are having fun :)
2 replies · active 733 weeks ago
Warboss Stalin's avatar

Warboss Stalin · 733 weeks ago

I don't have a problem with anyone playing counts-as...that's their perogative. The fact that people want to play a certain codex' with counts-as goes to show the nay-sayers that Codex Creep is a legit concern and IS real. Otherwise, what would really be the point? As mentioned a while back, wait till the Grey Knights power-dex drops...you'll be amazed how many people suddenly have Grey Knights counts-as....if GW DID treat the game as more comeptative and more balanced, we'd see a lot less of those who feel they have to play 'chaos wolves' to win
3 replies · active less than 1 minute ago
i'm all for counts-as armies. hell, i play orks, i have to be, really.
as long as its about the right size for what it represents and its got weapons that look like whatever theyre supposed to be, then slap it on the table, my friend.

but i do have issue with players who hop along the new codexes because theyre "more powerful" just to win *cough*goatboy*cough*
Border Prince's avatar

Border Prince · 733 weeks ago

One of the comments doesn't flow: "Warhammer 40k is a game. It's fluff. It's models. It's fun" and then "40k is a rule set. Nothing more." Surely these are different, even contradictory?

One of the issues is how the background fluff and the rules do not gel all the time. This is the real issue, and as Ben points out above, it depends on what you see the game as for: representing the fluff or simply a set of rules? One can resolve that tension, but GW doesn't resolve it well. This comment is the one that leads to explaining the point: "Does a RL army not want to Win at all Costs?...Winning is fluffy you bloody idiot." Of course a RL army wants to win (although sometimes I think they are more concerned with not losing, which is not always the same thing). However, GW gives players considerably more flexibility in building an army than any RL general has. That can then be used to produce armies which simply do not fit the background GW supplies. For players who play because they like the background, that can be frustrating.

That can be circumvented as a problem, and I think Privateer Press have done it much better than GW. Take one of the WM factions, Cygnar. According to general background the vast majority of Cygnaran forces are Long Gunners or Trenchers, so a fluff player might expect Cygnar armies to include them. However, the background also makes it clear that Warcasters have considerable flexibility to requisition forces for whatever they are doing. All armies are the forces of warcasters. That means that the fluff makes it clear that the games played are not games of "typical forces" vs "typical forces", but more like flexible special forces vs the same and so armies are meant, in terms of the fluff, to incorporate whatever is most suitable to the job at hand. It's a very neat way of incorporating arguably non-fluffy armies into the fluff.

GW doesn't do this - they set out the stereotypes of races/armies and describe typical forces (the only obvious exception, it seems to me, are armies created by an Inquisitor). So SM armies are mainly made up of tactical squads (almost half the chapter), Imperial Guard armies are mainly platoons, Space Wolves must field lots of blood claws to get them the experience to become Grey Hunters and so on. But list building (particularly optimised list building) often departs from that, and it does not fit with the fluff GW presents about the nature of a race/army. One can justify the choices by adding one's own fluff, but one needs to be honest - one is justifying a departure from what GW describes as typical.

Sometimes, such departures even seem to be contrary to GW fluff. Take Space Marines as an example. Codex chapters learn the Codex Astartes as the text about how to organise their forces and how to make war. That is how to do things and the idea of departing from it is not only wrong but possibly something some SM chapters do not understand. The Codex is often given some sort of (near-)religious status, and like certain religious groups, one consults the text about how to face any situation - such SM chapters would not even understand that one could win without following the Codex. It is the Codex that tells you how to win. But the Codex apparently stresses the power, flexibility and utility of tactical squads as the backbone of any SM army, but that isn't borne out in the rules or army choices, which tends to take small numbers of them. That doesn't mean such departures can't be justified, but the GW fluff is that the majority of chapters follow the Codex and only depart from it after significant events or very careful thought. That is not what one sees when facing many SM armies.
Von Lettow-Vorbeck's avatar

Von Lettow-Vorbeck · 733 weeks ago

Part of me wants to get uppity concerning real armies and winning at all costs, pointing out the concept of Pyrrhic victories and the fact that most 40k games are too bloody for any side to have clearly 'won' ...

... but all of my nitpicks are rendered irrelevant compared to the fact that your post was really good.

Fine text you put on my internetting-screen sir, I doth applaud.
IMo one of the reasons counts as and WAAC have formed a correlation is the lack of effort many players put into their counts as armies. I have no problem with someone using any codex to represent their army. However, when that person has say an Ultramarines army, that became Space Wolves when the new book came out (with not alterations), and then became Blood Angels when that book came out, it just feels wrong. I'm not saying I would refuse to play against said person, but it gives the wrong impression to the opponent. IF someone made a night lords army using Codex BA, and always used that codex I would take no issue whatsoever.

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