"Hey Kirby,
My name is Rahaknji, i am from Germany (so excuse my bad english)! I always wanted to play a Termiwing list (composed of a great many Terminators) this urge becam more and more pressing since the new GK Codex came out. So how this Termiwing works? it is composted of 1 or 2 big Units of Terminators wich try, rather than destroy the opponent, to control the movement and abilitys of the enemy force. I don't know if you have heard of this kind of lists, but to explain would take far to long, so i link two german blog articels: http://www.40kings.de/?p=1113 / http://www.40kings.de/?p=1466 (google translater should give you a good overview of how these lists work) So i tryed an army who have the ability to soak up much of the enemy fire, reduce fast moving enemy units to shreds and dominate the field. But how i can achieve this with GKs? my first idea was a big unit of Palas:
Scriptor, SB, Mc-Halbeards, 2 x Servos, sanctuary, shrouding, might of Titan, Warprift
Grandmaster, Sb, Mc-NPsi-sword, Psychostrokegrenades, Radgranades
10 Palas, 1 x Sword, 4 x Halbeards, 2 x Hammer, 1 x Mc-Halbeards, 1 x staf, 6 x SB, 1 x Mc-SB, 2 x Psibbolter, Apothecarius, Brotherhoodbanner
5 Termis, 1 x Sword, 2 x Halbeards, 1 x hammer, 3 x SB, 1 x Psibbolter
+Justicar, Meisterhafte Nemesis-Halbeards, SB
5 Termis, 1 x Sword, 2 x Halbeards, 1 x Hammer, 3 x SB, 1 x Psibbolter
+Justicar, Meisterhafte Nemesis-Halbeards, SB
Psyfelmen
Psyfelmen
= 1850
But i feel like this list will be destroyed by Melta-spam, IG, MassOrks and other kind of lists.
But how to improve it? I can go with 2x10 Termi squads, to have more scoring buddys and a (even) larger impact on the field. I decided to make a list like that:
Scriptor, SB, Mc-Sword, sanctuary, shrouding, might of Titan, Warprift
GM, SB, M-Sword, Rad and Psychostroke nades, defensiv nades, digi-weapons
Techmarine, SB, Energieweapon, 3 x Servo, Rad and Psychostroke nades, defensiv nades
10 Termis, 2 x Sword, 3 x Halbeards, 2 x Hammer, 7 x SB, 2 x Psibbolter, 1 x Staf, Banner, PsiAmmo
+ Justicar, MC Halbeards, SB
10 Termis, 2 x Sword, 3 x Halbeards, 2 x Hammer, 7 x SB, 2 x Psibbolter, 1 x Staf, Banner, PsiAmmo
+ Justicar, MC Halbeards, SB
Psyfelmen
Psyfelmen
Again i feel like i am missing something. But what? My scoring became much better and more solid? I hope you can help me.
Kudos Rahakanji"
List 1: too many pallies. List 2: Too much in the characters (Libby, GM, Techie).
List 2 is a much better base in being less of a rock but there are too many points sunk into the characters which are basically just accessing grenades for the Terminators. The grenades rock and make the Termies a lot more potent in combat (particularly with the Libby's buffing spells) but dropping so many points into those models for them isn't cost effective. What you can do instead if simply run an Inquisitor with Grenades in place of the GM and either not run the Techmarine or cut down on some of the points he's using. Personally I'd just go with the Inquisitor.
From there we need to fiddle with the Terminators a bit. You don't really need the Warding Staves so what I'd look at running is two full squads with Psybolt Ammo, 2x Psycannons and a Banner for 495 points each. Grab a couple hammers and the rest as halberds. You don't get the 4++ but you are striking before your opponent and have quite a lot of attacks to deal damage before they hit you. Grab a Xenos Inquisitor to support them with Hammerhand, Rad and Psykotroke grenades and then we need to support the list.
Dreadnoughts are great for ranged support but being the only vehicles in the army will be targeted by most of the anti-tank in your opponent's army so you have to consider if you can take enough tanks to consider them (i.e. 4-5 Dreads). You can do three normal psyfledreads and one venpsyfle or use the points for the Venpsyfle for something else. For now, let's just take two psyfledreads which gives us some options elsewhere with 335 points to play with.
We could grab two MM Ven Dreads or two MSU Psycannon/Psyback GKSS squads. This adds to vehicle saturation with the Dreads giving reliable anti-tank and more combat ability whilst the GKSS squads give more firepower and scoring. With only four psycannons and four autocannons as your anti-tank in the core army more anti-tank is certainly an important consideration (look also to give the Libby Warp Rift and the Inquisitor a combi-melta) so both of these are solid options.
If you want to keep the Termie theme though you can go with a Paladin squad with 2 MC Psycannons and an MC Hammer for 330 points. This is a great spot for the Libby and adds a bit of saturation in targets for anti-tank weapons (specifically S8+ guns) and gives about as much firepower as the two GKSS squads but more localised.
In the end I would probably go with the GKSS squads or Ven Dreads for more squads and adding vehicle saturation. Dropping the Inquisitor and ignoring the Grenade bonus they give you and use those 85 points elsewhere (the question becomes though, where?).
Logging you in...
tzeentchling 76p · 728 weeks ago
Libby, Might, Quickening, Sanctuary, Shrouding, 3 skulls -185
3x 10 GKT, 2 psycannons, 8 halberds, 2 hammers, psyammo - 3x470 = 1410
3x Psyfleman Dread - 3x135 = 405
2000 on the dot. GKT pretty much always combat-squad, even in KP missions - you need to be able to fire at multiple targets, and even combat-squadded this list has a grand total of 10 KP. They're bought this way because psyammo is cheaper. Psyflemen give long-range S8 firepower. Sure the list has hard counters, but it's the same ones that most pure termi-wing lists do.
Prometheus 101p · 728 weeks ago
I agree second list is better, though.
I also agree you don't need the GM. Best part of GM is Grand Strategy, and you barely need that where most things are troops. Psychic Communion is nice, but you can do without it. Just remove the GM entirely.
Keep the techmarine. Think about it -- You can reinforce a ruin, have the libby give them stealth, and now you have 2+ cover!
I would seriously consider giving the techmarine the Orbital Strike Relay. You might be standing and shooting a lot, this is exactly the sort of list where you might get a chance to use it.
Disagree with Kirby about the swords. Optimum combo for termies is generally, 2 swords, 2 halberds, 1 hammer for every 5. There are plenty of things you will strike first on anyway, but that 4++ will almost always get used. The warding staff is mediocre but it does have a use; it basically cancels out a fist.
MathMan · 728 weeks ago
Halberds are all or nothing, I think. I6 is a defensive measure but you need mass halberds to cut down on the number of attacks. A handful of halberd attacks aren't going to make much difference unless you pre-emptively force weapon some character, but 8/12 attacks can dent the opposing unit and save more return wounds than a sword. The 10-man Terminator-with-Banner unit is throwing out 21 I6 S5 power weapon attacks at incoming assaults, 28 on the charge. That'll cut down on incoming attacks a fair deal, reducing the need for defense.
I like the warding staves conceptually, but I'm thinking they really only belong on Librarians and Paladins, and even then, they're a big-time luxury on Librarians. On Paladins, tho, that 2+ save blocking a power fist may be saving two wounds rather than one, so that enhances its leverage a great deal.
Kirby 118p · 728 weeks ago
2+ cover is amazing but restricts you to the ruins chosen. If there are midfield ruins this is amazing, if not less so. I would rather two of them for double Nades (and potential OSR) but they become quite expensive and you'd end up with the Libby, 20 GKT, 2 Dread and 2 Techies which is pretty soft.
MathMan has it with the Halberds though. 4-6 I6 attacks = eh. I think Swords are better used in conjunction with Quicksilver on the Libby where you can get I10 base and the 4++ but that's only in your turn and can be blocked by psychic defenses.
tzeentchling 76p · 728 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 728 weeks ago
Prometheus 101p · 728 weeks ago
But gotta say, techmarines rock the Dr. Octopus-if-he-was-a-cool-1990's-anti-hero vibe, and you both are dweeby min/maxers with no soul, so there!
But I want to address this sword/halberd/hammer ratio in a serious way. (side note, for 10 men, we were talking 8-12 attacks, as mathman noted, not 4-6, Kriby. Yes, you might combat squad them)
These points are relevant:
1) Against any similar sized squad, it is very unlikely you will wipe them out at I6, even against simple tac squads. 20 attacks x 1/2 hit x 2/3 wound (assuming hammerhand, which is not guaranteed) yields 6.67 wounds. Against a similar commitment from the enemy, half in points, really, you will not have enough attacks to wipe them out.
2) Almost any time you fail to wipe the squad, you WILL be taking at least a few power weapon wounds.
3) A 4++ is 50% more effective than 5++, obviously.
This is why the 2 swords per 5 man works so well......you're simply likely to take 1or 2 power weapon wounds in any combat of import. 2 swords is just enough to let you soak that 50% percent better. Now, you certainly should have halberds -- those reduce the incoming damage you will take overall. But unless you're facing something like shot up squad, a squad you dramatically outnumber in points, or something special like an MC/IC that happens to be I 4-5, the halberds will not save you from those 1-2 power weapon wounds. Swords will. (or will help)
If your whole plan is for I10 quicksilver, I would consider falchions (RAW, +2 attacks).
2/2/1. 2/2/1. Sword/halberd/hammer.
MathMan · 728 weeks ago
Prometheus 101p · 728 weeks ago
2/2/1 Sword/Halber/Hammer.
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AnFuN-yY...
Check out the bottom of "random notes" tab.
If 5 identical Terminators take 30 woundsP(Survival of at least one) =0.38355298530994
If 5 distinct Terminators take 30 woundsP(Any one survives) = 0.33489797668038
Average survivors = 1.67448988340192
What that's saying, is if you take 30 wounds (whoo, that's a lot, but of course this what they think of, 1/6*30=5 dead terminators) on 5 identical terminators, there is a 38.3% chance that at least 1 terminator survives statistically (because, of course, never do you fail exactly 1/6 of your saves)
But, if you have 5 unique equipped terminators, each has a 33.4% to survive it's 5 assigned wounds. That means you will have 1.67 terminators alive, on avg.
1.67 alive instead of 0.383 alive on average, due to things like 2 failed saves being assigned to the 1 halberd, non-sergeant termie and the like, instead of killing 2 like-equipped termies. That is a 436% increase in survivability, even with single wound termies.
It's should be admitted that you rarely have 5 like-equipped termies, 1 is usually a sergeant and 1 has a psycannon, but still the principle holds, especially for 10 man squads.
Now, of course, differently equipped is easy to achieve with 2 swords, 2 halberd, 1 hammer: You make one sword guy carry the psycannon, one halberd guy will be a sergeant. Done, 5 different termies.
MathMan · 727 weeks ago
I should point out though that "38.3% chance of at least 1 survivng Terminator" doesn't directly compute to" 0.383 surviving Terminators on average" -- because there's a chance you will end up with two or more survivng Terminators. Of course it's a small chance so the math isn't off by much.
Rahakanji · 727 weeks ago
Termisquad: 1Halbeard, 1Sword, 1Hammer, 1Mastercrafted Halbeard, 1Halbeard/Psibolter
With the Palas: 1 Sword, 1Halbeard/Apo, 1Halbeard/MC-Stubo, 1Halbeard/Psibolter, 1Halbeard, 1 Hammer/Psibolter, 1Hammer, 1McHalbeards, 1staf, 1Brotherhoodbanner.
You see all models where equipt difrent, its not possible with 10regular Termis, so i tried to maximes it despite.
I have played with the first list now 3games; 1SW, 1Eldar, 1Blood Angels...
Wolves and Eldar where pretty though setups, with the wolves more like a standard german tournament loadout, and the Eldars with a mixed Mech/Foot build with 10Harlequins, 10Banshes, 8Firedragons, 6Warwalkers...
Wolves: KP, the Wall just walkes forward, using a big LOTS-Blocker in the center of the board for cover. and shooting the hell out off his Rhinos and Speeder. the Psyfelmens where sticking in cover from his 2Longfang squads... He gets desperate Attacks with 4Thunderwolves and a lord-Wolf, gets dented and the Lord Runs away, from the board.
BA: 3Targets, Not a pretty good build, especialy against this kind of list. but with a bit of luck he kills of my 2Standard squads, and i, in an moment of stupidity pre-game, didn't gave the palas scoring. So it was a draw.
Eldar: KP It was close, i had an advantage till round 5 and then the game finished in round 7, with my last draed destroyed... More like a game decided from dices, a warwalker survives the attention of 2Regulare-Palas and 1Hammer-Pala who attacked him, i fail my moral-cheque when the banshes attack and only hit on 5s, and wores he hits me on 3s... with 10Banshes and 7Harlis... not good!!!! but till round 5 i had enough KPs gained and his only chance was to wipe me out... with a bit of luck he managed that also... so i lost it because of the wipeout... Oh by the way my psi-nades sucked to, two ones, one Moral 2 (for banshes near the avatar) and only the firedragons could hit only one attack (i was charging and they had only one attack!) so i did everything right but tzeenth was against me!
I will try more test games with this list, maybe even take it to a tournament... more here
Prometheus 101p · 727 weeks ago
(Something that Tau players who like to take Plasma and Missile Pods on the same model should keep in mind as well, when firing into mixed squads. Right Kirby?)
MathMan · 727 weeks ago
mycnh · 727 weeks ago
Prometheus 101p · 727 weeks ago