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Monday, April 18, 2011

Grey Knight: ''Double Rock?"


There's been a lot of discussion lately on how Grey Knights are not a combat army. There are units which are pretty good at combat but are hindered by poor overall weight of attacks, weapon skill and lack of a good invulnerable save. For the most part, combat is a secondary aspect of a Grey Knight army with shooting being the primary function. However, there is one model which hasn't really been discussed in these posts and that is of course Death Cult Assassins. These guys have crappy armor with only a 5+/5++ but with A2, strength 4, initiative 6 and weapon skill 5 (not to mention two power weapons), they pack a helluva punch in combat for 15 points per model. That's pretty bloody good and although they aren't survivable, with the amount of damage output DCA have, this doesn't really matter except when they are shot. They also lack frag grenades to make use of their high I which is a huge drawback but we can work around that. Let's see if we can't build something based around this unit.

First off we're going to want two of these units obviously for redundancy but the question is how do we access them. Do we take Coteaz and make them Troops or run two Inquisitors and run them as bonus Elites. Both of their advantages. Coteaz gives our base units Troop status which means we don't have to sink as many points into surrounding these units with scoring options and ability to crack open tanks. Coteaz is probably cheaper than the two Inquisitors after they have been given gear as well. On the other hand, the two Inquisitors bring grenades and grenades can make the DCA much, much scarier. For the moment though let's got with Coteaz as points are going to be an issue.

Coteaz 100 points

Now we need to work out how our DCA are going to be transported. Land Raider Crusaders are the obvious choice (or Redeemers) as they provide frag grenades on the turn they charge out of the Crusader. This is very helpful in dealing with units in cover whilst also providing all the usual Land Raider benefits of AV14, assault vehicle, bunch of guns, power of the machine spirit, etc. Two of these with MMs costs  530 points. Extra Armor is probably needed for the guaranteed ignoring of stunned but for the moment we'll leave it off and gamble on Fortitude.

Land Raider Crusader w/MM 265 points
Land Raider Crusader w/MM 265 points

We then obviously need the DCA to go inside. We've got two real options here. Run the DCA by themselves and suffer from the dodgy survivability and highly likely overkill issues or attempt to increase unit survivability with Crusaders. Crusaders bring storm shields (and power weapons) to the table for the same cost as DCA. They are no where near as offensiely potent as the DCA nor as survivable as many other units with Storm Shields (they are T3 after all and no 2+ armor save to back it up) but it does increase the unit's durability by some margin. I think a mix of seven DCA and five Crusaders is good as you're still getting 28 WS5 power weapon attacks on the charge and now have five 3++ models. Each of these units will set us back 180 points.

7x Death Cult Assassin, 5x Crusader 180 points
7x Death Cult Assassin, 5x Crusader 180 points

We've so far used 990 points for our HQ and two 'rocks' so we are roughly on par with what you'd be looking to pay for this in other Space Marine books (i.e. Vanilla) but everything else in the GK codex is more expensive. Luckily our 'rocks' are scoring units so we don't have to worry about that as much. Let's see what we can do to fill out the army around these two units then.

We want to add to our Troops first and foremost. We have two options for this. Run henchmen units which are generally cheaper, give us access to a Razorback, meltaguns and give us a lot of bodies which aren't very durable. Sounds like a cross between an IG and SM list. Archnomad has done a list along this construct here. The other option is to use Grey Knight Strike Squads. We can go either full squad or MSU and I think we'll go MSU here. It adds more firepower due to the Razorbacks and saturation which we could use since 1000 of our points are dumped into what is essentially two units so far. Filling out or FoC with these squads uses 640 points and looks like this.

5x Grey Knight Strike Squad, Psycannon, Razorback w/Psybolt Ammo 160 points
5x Grey Knight Strike Squad, Psycannon, Razorback w/Psybolt Ammo 160 points
5x Grey Knight Strike Squad, Psycannon, Razorback w/Psybolt Ammo 160 points 
5x Grey Knight Strike Squad, Psycannon, Razorback w/Psybolt Ammo 160 points

This takes our points total to 1630 which means we don't have much for Elites or Heavy Support. This probably isn't enough so we may have to end up using Henchmen as our whole Troops but for the moment let's continue on and see what we can add.

We obviously need more anti-tank and there are many ways to get this in a Grey Knights army. I'd love to go with the ever boring Psyflemen Dreadnought but unfortunately we've already used two of our Heavy Support slots for Land Raider Crusaders. Bummer. We could take a Venerable Dreadnought instead with the added 60 point tax per Dreadnought but I'm a little loathe to do that. Instead, let's go with Purifiers and run them MSU style with double psycannon and a Psyback. This adds to our S6 firepower as well as bringing more psycannons to the table. Each squad costs 190 points so we'll start off with two.

5x Purifiers, 2x Psycannons, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo 190 points
5x Purifiers, 2x Psycannons, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo 190 points

This takes our total to 2010 points. I feel we're still a bit lacking in the anti-tank department so let's look at what we've got so far. 12-24 S7 rending shots, 48 S4 shots and 18 S6 shots plus the two Crusaders isn't too bad but probably not going to reliably pop armor which means our DCA mini-rocks are going to be hung out to dry. The question is, how do we access this firepower? Let's drop the GKSS squads for now and replace them with Warrior Acolytes. A full squad of these guys with three meltaguns and a Rhino costs 110 points or if we went the minimalist route, a squad of six with three meltaguns and a Razorback costs 104 points. The GEQ bodies aren't as durable obviously but do provide us with more anti-tank firepower in the meltaguns but probably lose overall firepower with the disappearance of the Psyback, Stormbolters and Psycannon. Is it worth the shaving of 50 points? Yes and no as it really depends on what we can access with those extra points. For now, let's drop all the GKSS in place of Rhino based Melta-acos.

10x Warrior Acolyte, 3x Meltagun, Rhino 110 points
10x Warrior Acolyte, 3x Meltagun, Rhino 110 points
10x Warrior Acolyte, 3x Meltagun, Rhino 110 points
10x Warrior Acolyte, 3x Meltagun, Rhino 110 points

With these squads instead of the GKSS our point total drops from 2010 to 1810 which means more points can be spent on something else! 190 points is just enough for another Purifier squad which means our net-loss is three Psybacks and two psycannons whilst gaining the 40 GEQ bodies and 12 meltaguns. The list therefore ends up looking like this:

Coteaz
5x Purifiers, 2x Psycannons, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo
5x Purifiers, 2x Psycannons, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo
5x Purifiers, 2x Psycannons, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo
10x Warrior Acolyte, 3x Meltagun, Chimera
10x Warrior Acolyte, 3x Meltagun, Chimera
10x Warrior Acolyte, 3x Meltagun, Chimera
10x Warrior Acolyte, 3x Meltagun, Chimera
7x Death Cult Assassin, 4x Crusader
7x Death Cult Assassin, 4x Crusader 
 Land Raider Crusader w/MM
Land Raider Crusader w/MM 


Totals: 1990 points
Tanks: 9
Bodies: 78

Not bad overall and with 60+ GEQ scoring bodies our objective capturing ability isn't horrendous. With some point tweaking as well (drop a Crusader and DCA from each mini-rock squad) we could turn those Rhinos into Chimeras so we can always use the top-hatch and not need to disembark the Acolytes to shoot three meltaguns. This is preferable and although you lose Fortitude, makes those units much more durable and adds a bunch of ranged dakka to your army as well. Edit: this has been done in the list above.

In the end the list isn't exactly a rock list as the assault units are no where near as survivable as a true rock but they do pack quite a punch on the charge. There is a lot more durable midfield support in this list compared to a Vanilla list as well, particularly in terms of scoring ability to compensate for this decrease 'rockness.'

Comments (31)

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I like it I was working on something similar with storm ravens and and an excess of AV 12 (chims and riflemen), but without a character to provide the nades I guess the crusader/redeemers are pretty essential, this analysis will def go a long ways in progressing my thinking, thank you.
All the firepower is short ranged which could be a problem when supressing, de-meching and assassinating. Your reach is quite limited which makes it easier for blockers. Furthermore I do not see how the force as a whole should work together. Care to explain?

I was more into the same idea as squirrel, but landraiders seem clearly superior than storm ravens as delivery units because of Av 14. You do not want to go second with them stormravens. I'll try to think of a list.
1 reply · active 728 weeks ago
I'd take Chimeras instead of RHinos after some thought and then you've really got a lot of options. You want the Chimeras to get into positin ASAP so you can use the meltas from the tophatch but at the same time the Purifiers work best when they unload in midfield ASAP as well so you've got the 6 psycannons + stormbolters and Psybacks shooting. The Crusaders I'd use less aggressively compared to a double rock list elsewhere and use them as fire support until mid-game where you can linebreak your opponent or get some excellent charges off.

The Raiders are important for the frag launchers.
myreknight's avatar

myreknight · 728 weeks ago

I was gonna suggest storm ravens actually, as they are slightly cheaper, and more immune to the old favorite melta rule that is everywhere nowadays. Av 12 isn't great but it's stil reliable especially since coteaz helps you to go first.
Also I know I've had this discussion with people but, can henchman be troops? They don't use FOC which a lot of people believe means they can't count as minimum FOC requirements. Has there been a ruling on this yet?
Hate. Hate hate hate hate hate hate, this codex.
Deathcult assassins are 15pts, and Grey Knights are 20.
'Nuff said.
3 replies · active 661 weeks ago
Auretious Taak's avatar

Auretious Taak · 728 weeks ago

Yeah, you're right. 1 is a mere mortal gonna die relatively soon to old age that is quite useful with a sword, the other one goes toe to toe with hell spawned daemons without fear and smites them again and again and again over many long centuries. Oh and I hear the latter can drink pretty much any person under the table thanks to multiple back ups of all their organs. :D
Actually I was reffering to how freaking cheap these models are. Marine w. storm bolter, force weapon, and a second power is olny 4 more points than a tactical, and my Death Company Marines with a PW are 45pts a pop, and sixty, 6-0, with a jump pack. What the eff.

And DC assassins are the cost of a single power weapon. They should be that, PLUS the cost of their power weapon.
Only all of that concerns offensive capability and no actual durability. They still die like normal marines. A Sergeant with a Powerfist can hide in his squad and make use of his weapon all game with little fear of being shot down. Blood Angels have Feel No Pain. Grey Knights, however, die as easily as Ultramarines and take all their fancy weapons with them.
Yes, the army is a over the top. Yes, the codex isn't great and in fact will probably age badly. But they're not nearly as ridiculously overpowered as people make them out to be. They get an extra shot and ignore armour saves. As a result, there are less of them. If you leverage their weaknesses to mitigate their strengths you'll find that they are not a huge sight more difficult to beat than any other 5th Ed codex.
I'm planning on running a squad of Arcos and a squad of DCA plus four squads of shooty retinue similar to your list. I'm planning on backing up these six squads with GK Terminators though.
Marshal Wilhelm's avatar

Marshal Wilhelm · 728 weeks ago

AHEM.

The Ld test for the Rhino to ignore stun+shaken....

What Ld value is a Rhino, and what happens on a 2 or a 12?
8 replies · active 728 weeks ago
The Lieutenant's avatar

The Lieutenant · 728 weeks ago

It's in the codex, GK vehicles count as LD10 for psychic purposes, and on a 2 or 12 they take a glancing hit.

The list is interesting Kirby, although having played a couple of games against GK now, the things I fear most are Psyflemen Dreads and 5 man GK Strike Squads with Psybolt Razors.
The amount of fire is unreal. Given that this army doesn't have much of that, I don't fear it THAT much. The Henchino (dibs :P) squads are just slightly worse versions of my Meltavets.
Course, they're a shit-tonne cheaper.

Stormravens.... 200+pts for Av12 isn't good. We're not Eldar, for Christ's sake. They just die.
Ya I just think GKSS + 2x Purifiers isn't enough firepower which the meltas + Chimeras kinda help against (yes I think the Chimera version is better).
The Lieutenant's avatar

The Lieutenant · 728 weeks ago

See, I can actually see the Rhino version. You lose a melta from the top hatch, but gain Fortitude (Which we've, i.e. Archy and Clayman, been discussing as the best psychic power in the codex without a doubt), and you aren't afraid to show some side armour.
Course, you'll only hit 1 of those melta shots, and that's where it gets a bit luck sacky.
I do love my Chimeras, but I love them for the bad old days when they cost 85pts. :P
Aye Fortitude is hard to pass up but at the same time, an extra 12 S6 and S5 shots is very useful as well.
The Lieutenant's avatar

The Lieutenant · 728 weeks ago

From Chimeras? Where you getting S5 shots from? Multi lasers and heavy flamers, surely. ;)
Both are really viable options and since this army is a bit light on firepower, the extra S5 doesn't hurt.
Marshal Wilhelm's avatar

Marshal Wilhelm · 728 weeks ago

Thank you.

Does that come with a page number? :)
Marshal Wilhelm's avatar

Marshal Wilhelm · 728 weeks ago

pg 21. Ace
I don't think one should get overexcited about what DCA can dish out when they are only 7, sure they might charge. But these guys really only get killy enough to take out dedicated CC units when they are buffed up with Hammerhand. That is why my vote goes for two inquisitors. And drop the Crusaders, if they are there to survive retaliation in close combat, hammerhand and more DCA will sort that problem. If they are there to take the wounds from shooting. Think about it. You'll most likely charge into cover, no? Still though, the chance of you being in cover after the dust settles is fairly big, then it's only a 3++ from a 4+ cover save we're talking. 12 Assassins and an Inquisitor. The Inquisitor is 55 with Hammerhand. Grenades are now only a luxury because you get 48 attacks. Yes that's how many you actually need to kill your average Deathstar. You do not want these guys to be left in combat after they charge, then they die. Let the rest of your army fix whatever is threatening to shoot them down. Chances are the GK's pose a bigger threat, or that you as a general is more than happy having your opponent shoot at your 180 point unit with a potential of 3+ cover
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
The Lieutenant's avatar

The Lieutenant · 728 weeks ago

Death Cult Assassins are ferocious. Watched a couple of games with Archy playing them: harsh. Very harsh.
They'll destroy just about any MEQ in combat.
I'm not really convinced on the Crusaders. The question is simply if the stormshields are enough to justify their cost. In close combat, it's a clear 'no' for me. If you can't handle the things you charge with the DCA, then you're fucked anyway. (dreads, high toughness stuff) More DCA would be even better for that...

So it's against shooting? 15 points each for a t3 guy with a marine save against normal weapons? I'm not feeling it man, you'll still die hard to torrent. It's simply 75 points you invest extra in both squads, while they don't let you do other things, they're just some overpriced extra wounds to me.

I would even rather add 2 Banishers with an Eviscerator and 1 extra DCA instead of the Crusader guys. Now you can touch vehicles too and actually do more damage to Deamons too for what's it worth. (face it, this lisn't hasn't got a lot of shooting, nor combat apart from the DCA squads so Deamons are far from a roll-over for this list, normal lists at least have Warquake)

TL;DR version: Crusaders are way too expensive for what they give you, drop them and do something else with the points.
3 replies · active 728 weeks ago
For use against vehicles/dreads, I prefer to go 3 Warriors with Meltaguns/Meltabombs than Banishers. I just can't see paying 40 pts for a chainfist with 1 attack... if Banishers had 2 attacks base it would be a different story.

As for the list... IMO, the main advantage of the DCA-based units as CC rocks is that they are very point-efficient. I think they would work better as 3 units in Rhinos, for fewer points, than as 2 in Land Raiders. Make use of their point efficiency rather than bloating them up with 250 or so point transports just to get the frag grenades. Henchmen don't make the kind of super rock unit that you want to sink more points into to make sure that they get there, but OTOH they are very efficient for the price: stick to that strength and spam deadly assault units rather than trying to fit them into a rock role that they don't really fit into.

I'd look at 4 squads, all in Rhinos, 3 Warriors with MG/MB and 7 DCA. Yes, they're not a rock. But you now have 12 meltaguns and 4 units that are going to hit hard in combat, and more points left for support units.
Edit: Banishers are 30 pts, my bad. I still like the 3 Warriors as I like the ability to fire melta from every advancing unit, but Banishers aren't quite that bad.
This is very true. One can simply forego Crusaders all together :P.
randyc9999's avatar

randyc9999 · 728 weeks ago

I did up a couple of battle reports on DakkaDakka that described two games of GK vs Daemons. The lists were hybrid in that they contained Inq plus GK units. Both games had one unit of DCAs and they were by far the most successful unit in CC for the GK. Purifiers really underperformed in comparison to the DCA.

In the first game I put the DCA in a LR Crusader with a Librarian. S6 (with hammerhand and might) DCAs are absolutely insane. They do, however, need some type of ablative wounds. You won't always be charging units in cover and so you need something that can eat some wounds when you wipe out a unit outside of any cover. Four point acolytes work just as well as the more expensive Crusaders.

In the second game, I dropped the LR and I just put them in a Chimera. In the future, I will run them in a Rhino with a couple of melta henchman to increase their flexibility, as well as one or two naked henchman.
abortedsoul's avatar

abortedsoul · 728 weeks ago

I find a reasonably efficient use of DCAs is just as a counter-attack unit. Store a small squad of them with maybe a libby, an inquisitor or a techmarine in a chimera to hop out and rip face on anyone that needs killing. You can even take x3 meltacolytes or MM servitors (if you've got them with an inquisitor) to help supplement your dakka. If you really want a counterassault unit, that an ordo xenos inquisitor with grenades (and Hammerhand/Force weapon, to taste) and around 5 DCAs with x3 MM servitors to be a solid mid-field unit to stash in a chimera. They still are just T3 guys with no real saves to speak of, but you can buy extra warrior acolytes to fill the squad out with bodies if you have the extra points. Alternately, you can grab x3 meltacolytes with x5 DCAs and a Librarian w/ Might and Hammerhand to give them a decent punch.

This kind of configuration still packs a nasty punch, and doesn't break the bank in the process.
My kingdom for a Phantasm Grenade Launcher Archon!
Does an Inquisitor/techmarine with frag grenades in the unit benefit the whole squad?
2 replies · active 728 weeks ago
I think I remember reading in the BRB that its worded so only the model using them, not positive though
Nope.
DCA's in raiders are too expensive for multiples, IMO. My army has evolved from 1-2 units with all the trimmings (dca's, crusaders, raider etc) into 4 streamlined units in chimeras. IME keeping these units cheap and efficient works best, i.e. 8 acolytes + 3 mg's, 5 dca's, chimera = 188 pts (plus inquisitor cost). These units are cheap throwaways that pack plenty of melta and cc punch in addition to multilaser/hf goodness. To each their own but I rarely ever miss crusaders and I would never take a banisher when all 3 mg acolytes can slag from inside their ride. As someone already stated why pay 15 pts for a t3 marine when im guaranteed 4 wounds for 16 pts.

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