Libby w/Quick, Might, Shrouding, Sanc
Inq w/3 Servoskulls; Henchmen w/3x MM, Chimera
2x5x Purifiers w/2x psycannons, Psyback
2x10x GKSS, w/2x psycannons, MC hammer, psybolt ammo, Rhino
2x5x GKSS w/psycannon, Psyback
2x Psyflemen
Tyrant w/LW, BS, HVC, OA, Parxoysm, Leech; 2x Guard w/LW
2x3x HG; 2x HG
2x tervigon w/Adrenal, Toxin, Catalyst, Cluster
2x10x Termagants
2x Harpy w/HVC
T-Fex w/Rupture, Cluster
Here's the deployment (and yes we did it on Vassal, bite us).
I took first turn to ensure he couldn’t get catalyst off on his Hive Guard and deployed centrally to move into midfield. Puppy didn’t want to seize so I moved into midfield and unloaded two thirds of my guys and then proceeded to shoot Puppy’s Hive Guard and ended up dropping all but two models. A bunch of Psybacks, Psycannons, Stormbolters (S4 & S5) and Psyfledreads will do that.
We discussed this later but I thought Puppy should of deployed them in more defensive positions (i.e. behind the ruins which BLoS). This at least allows him to get Catalyst off and if I want to move into midfield, gives him the range to do so. At the same time though if he did this I could have focused on a singular flank with my superior movement and played a game of 31” with my Psybacks until I could get enough psycannons/stormbolters into play. As Puppy said, it would have just delayed the inevitable but I think it would of been a better move.
Puppy then moves forward as much as possible but is going to have a hard time damaging me. He spawns about 25 more Termagants and is able to shake a Razorback and kill one Marine. Fortitude erases the shaken and I have another turn of full dakka mode.
I unload some more Grey Knights and block off Puppy’s push in the top of the board and then continue to dakka away. I finish off the Hive Guard (both of his Catalyst attempts failed without Hood intervention...) and then drop both of the Harpies. I put the rest of my firepower into some Termagants and reduce a squad to three strong.
Puppy moves forward once again and is able to kill a couple more Grey Knights (three this time)but still can’t cause significant damage. Assaulting me would lead to most of the Termagants dead before they can strike thanks to hammerhand and Sanctuary and the Hive Tyrant wasn’t in range yet.
Another full turn of Dakka...and most of Puppy’s army is gone. I’ve moved in for some assaults and jumped the rest of my guys out and was able to polish off the three strong Termagant squad, the Hive Tyrant + Bodyguard and drag two termagant squads down to tiny numbers in combat. I also dealt three wounds to the bottom Tervigon. We called it here.
This is a prime example of Grey Knights doing all the right things and being able to completely decimate a Tyranid list. I think if the Hive Guard had been hidden and allowed to get Catalyst on them it would have been a different game. Certainly I had the firepower to drop them but I would have been much more careful in my approach to midfield and have looked to use my movement advantage to win me the game. As it was I just had to move forward and ensure my target priority was solid. This was so easy a well because the Hive Guard were such an easy pick first off the bat. There were no other units which could threaten me early. Harpies are shake-lock machines which I'm not fussed about. Tervigons produce fodder which I'm happy to munch on after I deal with threats, same with the Tervigons. The Tyrant is slow. If there had perhaps been Warriors/Raveners on which my Psyflemen really had to shoot at or other units which could threaten me early (the T-Fex could but I could absorb his firepower for his point cost until he got close) then my target priority would have been more difficult. Combine this with Hive Guard which potentially stay alive and I think we would have had a game on our hands though I still think the GK list had the upper hand regardless.
Anyway it was a fun chat with Puppy whilst we played and hopefully we can get some more games in soon to help the Tyranid cause out (try different lists) and get me ready to use GK! Good game mate.
Logging you in...
@oldgrue · 729 weeks ago
mathhammer · 729 weeks ago
Trygon - (I think you meant a trygon) would have applied more pressure but on the other hand has a worse armor save.
@oldgrue · 729 weeks ago
Trygon - Thanks for catching the foulup. Is the pressure worth more than the save? Did it divert enough fire to let another unit do their job? It merits testing.
TheKingElessar 71p · 729 weeks ago
Thatguyoverthere · 729 weeks ago
I guess what we've learned is that Tyranids can't beat Grey knights with shooting. I think this shows why Zoanthropes are entirely necessary against modern armies. The 3++ is incredible and is sure to eat up a few of your opponent's turns of shooting. I'm still not convinced that your GK list could beat the Tyranid list I took to Colonial.
Tervigon
3 Hive Guard
3 Hive Guard
3 Zoanthropes
Tervigon
10 Gaunts
6 Shrikes
Trygon
Trygon
Trygon
Since you moved into the center of the table (12" away from my guys) my trygons would have been able to fleet into you first turn and my shrikes could have joined them. AP4 means that most of my stuff would have gotten saves (minus rending) which is bad news for mech gunlines.
Auretious Taak · 729 weeks ago
I guess what we've learnt is that the above game was not representative of a Tyranid Shooting army so saying such blanket statements seems rather counter-intuitive.
It's also one game. Get Puppy and Kirby to play again a dozen odd times and maybe then we'll have meaningful results.
Also, Kirby is a decent player, you can't generalise that he would play his GK's the same way against one style of Tyranid list as another, thus your analysis is a bit iffy. Your shrikes...they all get ID'ed to Psyflemen, and then it's just concentration of force and psychic powers to wipe out your trygons which likely will have been baited out of shadow in the warp range so as the psychic powers can go off and then str 6 force weapons @ I 4 would have just puffed the trygons regardless of the damage done to the uinits as there'd still be half a unit left and 6 wounds to 6 wounds (go go force weapons!) still has them alive and kicking. Grey Knights are a synergy driven army, much like Tyranids, and as such differing army variants from the same codex need to be approached differently. I don't doubt Kirby would play differently verse your list as the conditions are different.
Thatguyoverthere · 729 weeks ago
The only problem is that if we put out 9 biovores at 405 points, would anyone get out of their vehicles? We need things like Trygons to tear open tanks more than anything else. Or at least to make GK players disembark their troops to "wrap" their vehicles. Most people are bringing squads of 5 guys. Trygons get 7 str 7 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3's, rerolling all misses and wounding on 2's with no armor saves. Usually, I kill 5-6 things on a charge with them.
Auretious Taak · 729 weeks ago
You mention below that Tyranids are about working together and that every unit has its' place. redundancy is also useful but maxing biovores instead of looking at other options in HS is flawed. a single T-Fex with rupture cannon is long range suppression, has the only cheap 2+ armour save on an MC in our whole codex but can also put out a surprising amount of anti-infantry firepower. For 50 more points over a Trygon, you get a slightly slower model that is more resilient and has the ability to slaughter immense amounts of infantry medium to light that the Trygon lacks. 15 pts more loses some of that infantry killing fun but gets the ability to crack vehicles before you hit combat.
My advice, if your HS isn't full work in a unit of 2-3 biovores, if you have 2 slots free work in 2 units of 2, it's a decent price and whilst they are a barrage weapon, biovores also launch as ASSAULT WEAPONS. So you can actually move them with the rest of the army and keep them in Synapse as well. But Biovores and no other heavy hitting aspect in HS is a mistake in my opinion.
Finally, I ran shooting Nids in 3rd ed. I outshot everything. People weren't prepared for 8 str 9 ap - devourer shots off of a Carnifex or 12 str 5 shots from a Hive Tyrant, more so, they weren't prepared for 2 tyrants and 2 carnifexes at 1500pts with some genestealer units and 100 termagants and some biovores. 4th ed came around and everyone was 'look! Tyranids can shoot!' and i was all 'They increased the range and hitting power of my whole army? HELL YEAH!' and I outshot most opponents. 5th rolled in and it became hard to outshoot mech spam, Foot you can walk all over witha shooty nid army, mech is harder as you still need to close to combat even with a tyrannofex, and alot of people forget that. you still have MC's and MC's still crush tanks in combat better then at range. This is why running a single RC Tyrannofex has its' uses because it is closing with the rest of your army keeping target saturation and confusing your opponent as to what to shoot.
Oh and to your trygons and combat, GK's can get I 10 to laugh at you whilst also being str 6 power weapons, and if Thawn is around, str 6 I 10 Force weapons...again with army wide combinations and situational synergies which counter things...
Thatguyoverthere · 729 weeks ago
I do think that 1 squad of 20 genestealers or 2 squads of 10 genestealers would make an impact on my opponent's deployment. Against IG lists like the one I faced at the Colonial, I could outflank them and hope to come in on the right side. Outflanking genestealers would also incentivize my opponent to deploy in the center of the table...
abusepuppy 121p · 729 weeks ago
Zoanthropes: Hey do you like making saves against S5 guns? Because GK can get a lot of those. Also S8 guns on Psyflemen if, for whatever reason, they feel threatened.
Shrikes: But obv these are the first target for the Psyfles. Expect to lose at least 4/6 of them on T1.
Trygon: Not gonna fare any better than any other MC against shooting, so expect 3-6 wounds/turn pretty easily.
Overall your list is more aggressive, which Kirb can easily trump by "walling" with Rhinos and refusing to advance; you have absolutely no ranged firepower, so you're forced to walk into his guns and try and bash your way through his tanks, since there's no way your shooting will be alive to do the job.
Thatguyoverthere · 729 weeks ago
Zoanthropes: I like making saves against any kind of gun :) In all seriousness, Zoanthropes absorb huge amounts of shooting in every one of my games. I can say with some confidence that they shouldn't be cut down in one turn. Hasn't happened to me yet. Assault terminators even failed to kill them all.
Shrikes: I've never had them all shot apart before they destroyed a squad or two of something. I'm beginning to sense the "Well, every one of your units will die first turn" syndrome that haunts a lot of the Tyranid posts. You can't kill everything in one turn.
Trygon: They fare better because there are 3 of them, they get a save against GK shooting and strike at initiative 5 on the charge. I got 4 wounds a turn from armies that packed missile launchers, multi-meltas and multiple lascannons and blood strikes. I doubt that all my zoanthropes and shrikes will die on the same turn that I get wounds on these guys.
I have the same amount of ranged fire power you have :)
Auretious Taak · 729 weeks ago
People aren't giving you feedback on "everything dies first turn", they are giving you feedback on the top targets and how they will fair. You'll note Puppy and I both pointed out the weakness of the Shrikes, they are fast and do damage but easily killed. Good fire arcs and baiting walls will have them exposed 2nd turn onwards, as if youw ait any longer they won't have support to close with them.
Also, 4 wounds a turn on a T6 3+ save MC army from massed ML/Las/Melta? You aren't facing massed HW's if that's true. Conservatively, you lose a Trygon a turn to those sorts of armies and you get march blocked because your anti-mech is limited to 3 targets a turn as opposed to 6 or 7 from the get go.
that's the difference - being able to saturate your suppression as you close or praying that you have an army left when you do hit charge range that those sacrifices to long range saturated anti-mech pay off better then the RC/HVC's in more shooty hybrid Tyranid lists.
GK's and 'Nids are actually really similar. they are boith about army-wide synergies and working together to wipe out threats. But each also has limited long range armour suppression, it's when they close to mid-field or charge range that they start to have a serious impact on their opponents.
bLACKbUNNY · 729 weeks ago
For me the Jury is out on the Harpy. He performs ok, but is expensive and dies quite easily.
Although that means he can be replaced with ....... exactly.
abusepuppy 121p · 729 weeks ago
tzeentchling 76p · 729 weeks ago
Really, if the answer that GK have to Nids is "shoot them," which I will grant they are quite good at, then Nids have to do what they do best - overload the enemy with targets that they have to deal with. Storm bolters are, after all, just double-tapping bolters. Yes, there's a lot of them and sometimes they're S5, but it's still just firepower, still hits on 3s. I'm being flip here, certainly, but there has to be something constructive out of this rather than "no matter what the Nid player puts in his army, the GK player will just shoot it off the board."
abusepuppy 121p · 729 weeks ago
I realize I'm coming off as rather negative, but having thrown together a number of different lists, I don't see a good way for Tyranids to make an all-comers list that can beat GK. Yes, you can write up a all-little-bugs-all-the-time list, shoot down their Purifiers, and assault the rest and do okay by it, but that list stands absolutely no chance against anything other thank GK. It lacks anti-MEQ firepower, it lacks strong AT shooting, it lacks resilience against most kinds of armies it lacks... well, everything.
>Yes, there's a lot of them and sometimes they're S5, but it's still just firepower, still hits on 3s.
Run the math- a ten-man GKSS ~7 bugs each turn while still being mobile. You CAN overwhelm that, but given that's their "basic" firepower, you are going to be staring down a looooooot of guns most of the time. Remember why Orks are a bad army: it doesn't matter how many bodies you have on the table when you can't reach the enemy with all of them.
tzeentchling 76p · 729 weeks ago
I mean, the Nid player is not blindly walking into the GK's guns. As impressive as GK firepower is, I don't think it by itself renders the Nid codex obsolete in competitive play.
Auretious Taak · 729 weeks ago
Like I said above (or below?) The above ghame vs Kirby is one game. It's not a definitive sample size to state that G's vs Nids is imba or broken.
bLACKbUNNY · 729 weeks ago
would load out do you use on your shrikes. boneswords?
@oldgrue · 729 weeks ago
I think its back to more testing for us all.
Thatguyoverthere · 729 weeks ago
They fly behind the wall of Trygons for the 4+ cover save until my gargoyles are finished (which is going to be epic btw, 12" move +6" run every turn with a guaranteed cover save from the 20+ gargoyles flying in front of them... all with synapse).
They killed 20+ terminators last tournament. A single guy went from a squad of BA assault terminators to a combat with a RAS and then solo'd a squad of devastators. The unit won me 5 KPs that day.
Terminator Assault Squad
Chaplain
Sanguinary Priest
RAS
Devastators
hyv3mynd · 729 weeks ago
bLACKbUNNY · 729 weeks ago
Astreiu · 729 weeks ago
Tervigon + ag, ts, cat, cc
Tervigon + ag, ts, cat
Hive Guard x3
Hive Guard x3
Zoanthropes x3
Genestealers x20
Genestealers x20
Genestealers x15
Gargoyles x26 + ag"
(Posted by hyv3mynd in his blog)
I'm a follower of hyv3mynd and his Synaps3 blog :3
Auretious Taak · 729 weeks ago
hyv3mynd · 729 weeks ago
blacksly · 729 weeks ago
Also, I'm not sure I understand the map since I can't see the heights or how solid the terrain pieces are... was there no place to place the Hive Guards out of LOS in Turn 1? They are too much of a Nid army's firepower to let them die before getting shots off, especially against armies that you know are advancing towards you so they will get into range soon enough even if you don't deploy them as far forward as possible. Granted, if there is no LOS-blocking cover on that table quarter, things do get tougher.
abusepuppy 121p · 729 weeks ago
Hive Guard were not a major priority because I knew that crippling his mech was not going to be my primary objective- GK are not reliant on vehicles in the same way some armies are.
Carnage · 729 weeks ago
It seems like the list that did well in Adepticon is all about "more" and not "better" troops. Outside of his 2 Terviogns there isn't a single model worth more then 60 points. Minimal upgrades...hell, the gargoyles only had AG, which is rare since most people will suggest taking both upgrades on them.
I don't think the Nids VS GK matchup is hopeless, but i think it's not going to be pleasant and I don't think it's really any worse then DE.
abusepuppy 121p · 729 weeks ago
The difference between GK and DE is we can attack DE's weaknesses (AV10, T3) with our strengths (multishot guns, high-Str hits to bypass FNP.) We cannot attack GK's weaknesses with our strengths, because they shrug them off while simultaneously hitting our weak points very precisely.
DE and Tyranids is two armies trying to push each other's buttons because both have the capability to ruin the other if allowed. GK vs. Tyranids is just some super-awesome dudes in armor and their punching bag.
Thatguyoverthere · 729 weeks ago
Ben · 729 weeks ago
I agree that the HG needed to be entirely out of sight. Maybe it would have only delayed the inevitable, but as it was the GK were able to camp in the mid-field with impunity.
Clayman · 729 weeks ago
Purgatus · 729 weeks ago
Exactly. That and the lack of T-fexes put this list at a significant disadvantage.
Clayman · 729 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 729 weeks ago
However, I think doing that at least makes it a game and has some actual tactical thought behind it (not saying Puppy wasn't tactical here of course).
Clayman · 729 weeks ago
s00nertp 38p · 722 weeks ago
I am curious to see what the competitive GK armies will end up with, I hope there is more variety, though I dont see much possibility of that at the moment.
OMGitsMCD · 729 weeks ago
purgatus 90p · 729 weeks ago
Zjoekov 74p · 729 weeks ago
It's like there is starting to exist paradigms on 3++ now too: "It's never allowed to whine about armies!! Everything is balanced!! No gtfo with your warseer thoughts!"
Well fuck that shit, the day I lose to Nids with my GK's I'm quitting this hobby. (not literally ofc :P ) Hint: won't happen; they can't do shizzle against most good GK builds when they also play with an allcomers build.
Did you know that Venerable Dreadnoughts can instakill with their Force Fist of Doom too btw? Isn't that amazing that even Dreadnoughts can now wait in cover, get charged and then have a good chance at instakilling that Trygon before it can hit?
The_Silencer · 729 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 729 weeks ago
abortedsoul · 729 weeks ago
s00nertp 38p · 722 weeks ago
I dont see how they can do this without new models with more favorable stats.
Thatguyoverthere · 729 weeks ago
http://yesthetruthhurts.com/forum/tyranids/respon...
Archy · 729 weeks ago
That article I'm writing should hopefully be finished over the weekend. I hate not having my own laptop. :(
Kirby 118p · 729 weeks ago
True enough re Catalyst however but I do think it would of made the game less of a tabling by T4/5. Our dice were pretty average as well and my aggressive stance in midfield certainly accelerated the Tyranid demise but would of lost me one or two GK squads in the end.
Desc440 · 729 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 729 weeks ago
Desc440 68p · 729 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 729 weeks ago
bLACKbUNNY · 729 weeks ago
Nurglitch · 716 weeks ago
The army list is bad. I mean, it's like you sat down and thought really hard about which units the Grey Knights would have an easy time killing.
The set-up is bad, but that was exacerbated by the Spearhead set-up: I've made the same mistake, trying to leap across that no-man's-land and getting run over by power armour in Rhinos/Razorbacks. Kirby was right: the set-up should have been more defensive. In fact, setting most of the army up in reserves would have been a better idea, if the army had been better composed (Hive Commander instead of Old Adversary, for example). Arriving from your own board edge in Spearhead
Abusepuppy's play was bad; he made bad tactical decisions. Closing with a castle of Grey Knights was playing to his strengths. Of course, the fact that Kirby was able to castle up in the first place points to a deficiency in Abusepuppy's army.
Some comments about Tyranids though:
1. The Shadow in the Warp. Only 12" from Synapse creatures, but a fantastic way of encouraging the Grey Knights to either murder themselves, or fight with one hand tied behind their backs. As others have mentioned, Shrikes can project this and fight in combat (come'on, use your Force weapons!), but then Shrikes weren't taken... Likewise the Tyrant didn't have the mobility to project his power, or use psychic powers like Psychic Scream that would have broken up the Grey Knight castle for Tyranid-advantaged assaults.
2. Biovores. My god yes.
3. Gargoyles. They provide cover and can surround transports if you play them right.
4. Venomthropes. Again, a strong defensive necessity, capable of turning nearby hordes of little bugs into murderous deathtraps rather than the pointless annoyances that smalls units of little bugs inevitably turn out to be.
Don't get me wrong, the notion of Heavy Venom Cannons is good, but it doesn't work if you do it half-arsed with Tervigons instead of Carnifexen. If you wanted the Tervigons to work, you should have had large hordes of small bugs, like 30 strong units of Termagants and Hormagants, and Gargoyles, and Genestealers.
Karvala · 716 weeks ago
Psychic scream? really? 2d6" range, psychic test, psychic hood test, LD9 or 10 test on 2 dice to hopefully cause some wounds on failing? Cover saves to avoid the wounds.
2. Biovores would have been great - but they also suffer badly from S8 shooting.
3. Gargoyles provide cover, but die easily to bolter fire and fold when assaulted - even not considering cleansing flames. Assaulting into sanctuary isn't good for them either.
4. Venomthropes - necessary, but slow, and I doubt the GK would be in a rush to assault into termagant hordes near venomthropes, and instead shoot them and sit in their own 12" sanctuary bubble of 'we do that better than you do'.
abusepuppy 121p · 716 weeks ago
1. I like that it was a mistake for me to close with them, and yet you cite SitW as an advantage. Seems a little... contradictory. Tyrants aren't mobile unless they're flying, and Flyrants are easy targets for shooting, especially GK shooting. Psychic Scream is mediocre against Tau/IG and terrible against everyone else.
2. Biovores die horribly to every gun in the GK arsenal.
3. Grey Knights don't hang out in their transports. Good try, though. They get slaughtered just as easily as Termagants do.
4. 5+ cover is worse than 4+ cover. At no point did I lack 4+ cover. Grey Knights don't care about cover, they're all about weight of wounds.
I have no idea what you're talking about with HVCs, Tervigons don't have an HVC option and Carnifexes are terrible at this points level.
Your "horde" idea sounds like a great army that is totally unable to kill a tank ever. I don't know how that works.
Karvala basically hits all the points as well. It's not that 'Nids can't beat GK, it's that they can't beak GK _and any other army_. What works against GK is trash against the rest of the field. I realize I didn't play terribly well in this game, but honestly, I never really had a shot at winning the match. I played sloppy because 90% of my firepower was dead on turn 2.