People have nutted out the roles of most of the Grey Knight special characters so far. Coteaz is good. Draigo, Mordak and Crowe are usable but not OMGWTFudgemuffins. Thawne has some merit but is pretty expensive. The rest (Valeria) suck. Karadread though is a bit of an enigma. He has some uses but are they really needed? When do they come in handy and is he worth his points for those uses? If so in what armies? These questions we shall look to answer or at least give some insight into.
First off let's do a crash course review in what Karadread actually is. He's a mini-MC for 200 points with Strength and Toughness 5 and wounds 4 though everything else is pretty standard. He does have a 2+ save but no invulnerable which is pretty suck. He's got nearly every grenade under the sun including the important Rad but not the ever awesome psykotroke and comes with a frigging relentless twin-linked Multi-melta (Gatling MM!). That's pretty cool on an unshakeable platform which, thanks to Independent Character status, can hide in squads. He can't jump into vehicles though which is kinda annoying and only has your basic old power weapon in combat (three attacks base). Not a bad line-up of wargear and statline but not 200 points worth. Let's look at his special abilities then.
By Any Means Necessary
One thing I didn't mention above is Karadread has Orbital Strike Relay (wooo). OSR has some nice options (Barrage + lance) but can be really unreliable due to scattering the full 2D6 at all times (jury's out on whether or not servo skulls reduce this) and having to not move the unit in the previous turn. Karadread has no bonuses in relation to the movement restrictions. This is actually rather annoying for him since he can move and shoot to full effect. Karadread does however deal with the full scatter issue rather nicely.
Rather than firing as normal Karadread has the option to fire the OSR onto one of the controlling player's own models; it can even be in close combat (Crowe/Brotherhood Champion anyone? lol). The OSR doesn't scatter when this happens which can make for a very accurate and deadly barrage for the general cost of one model (use 2" coherency to ensure only one of your models is hit). Being able to target this in combat also opens up a lot of options, particularly when you are out numbered (again, Crowe/BHC) or are happy to potentially lose said unit.
Once again Barrage and Lance are the useful ones here. Barrage can cause a lot of damage in combat or can split off from the initial blast placement whilst Lance just has to clip a vehicle (very possible to get multiple vehicles if you position right) for a full S10 AP1 hit. Overall pretty decent and has some uses but is more of a utility bonus than a reason to take him.
Dread Reputation
This ability with OSR is nice and can really cause some headaches for your opponent but still isn't really a reason for taking Karadread for his cost. Dread Reputation however, well if you're taking him you better be looking to gain from this. Karadread has the ability to improve Leadership reliability of the army but at the cost of some flexibility. Any squad he joins can choose to pass or fail any morale test they are required to made which is obviously very useful for ensuring a unit sticks around or buggers off when needed. Karadread also provides a 12" re-roll bubble to all failed morale checks. Although the vast majority of the Grey Knight army is Ld9 (i.e. everything but Henchmen or if Justicars start dying), the reliability this option brings to the army on the table-top is very nice to have.
As MVB has pointed out, this is particularly important for an army which is semi-vulnerable to tank shocks due to the lack of melta in their basic GK units. Although if you had melta failing your Ld wouldn't really matter, it could make your opponent more aggressive and therefore more likely to tank shock you. After repeated shocks, units will fail. The flip side of this is of course ATSKNF. You may fail and run away but it's unlikely you'll be within 6" of the enemy or close to the board edge. If you are you keep running and can keep shooting but if you aren't you auto-rally and get a free 3" move. Not the end of the world and if you have a lot of little units (MSU), even having one unit out of action for a while isn't terrible.
Unfortunately though, you have to re-roll if you fail the first time. This loses tactical flexibility when it might be better to flee at the cost of making you much more unlikely to flee when you don't wish to.
Viability in Army?
So with all of this in mind, when do we want to use Karadread? I do think he's usable but isn't an easy plug into any army list. Let's look at his major pros and see what are options to ensure we maximise these and whether or not this is a viable army.
- Ld re-rolls + ultimate flexible unit
- relentless and reliable MM
- T5 can absorb S8/9 hits without fear of ID
- not too shabby in combat (though lacks invulnerable)
The Ld re-rolls are still obviously the reason you'd primarily take Karadread and again with Ld9 across the army not to mention ATSKNF, this is a very pricey HQ to just get that extra reliability. It's plausible and not a terrible choice but there are better ways to spend your points. If you're running any sort of MSU based list I wouldn't bother. Although MSU armies generally have to take more Ld tests, they generally don't care when units start disappearing; there's more to take their place. Mixed MSU or armies with larger units which you don't want to run away for any reason might benefit more from Karadread, particularly if they there are any henchmen units around. That being said, henchmen based armies (Ld8) would greatly benefit from these re-rolls or any army using henchmen units such as meltabubblewrap. Stelek has done a full henchmen list which uses Karadread to help anchor the army whilst providing an MM as well.
Whilst there is nothing too flash with Karadread something does jump out besides the Ld re-rolls: T5. One of the biggest arguments against Paladins has been the proliferation of S8+ shots which makes their W2 status basically useless. If you add in their lack of a good invulnerable save (5++ or potential 4++ in combat), this can be a huge weakness against some armies. Karadread would be able to absorb quite a lot of those shots (particularly if they are spread out over an army like Dark Eldar darklight weaponry) and even make units like Meltavets far less effective against Paladin units. The ability to move and fire his MM also goes well with the relentless nature of the Paladins and makes the unit very durable. It's still not going to go toe-to-toe with a TH/SS squad but it will be very scary to a lot of things out there both in terms of shooting and combat. A unit using this 'combo' would look something like this:
Karazamov - 200 points
5x Paladins w/2x MC Psycannons, MC Hammer - 330 points
It's 530 points total which is a massive chunk of any army but gives the army a very solid and scary midfield unit which can move and shoot very effectively and punch things in combat quite well and isn't going anywhere based on Ld failings. Karadread also anchors the whole army with Ld re-rolls which can be built around or just be a bonus. I've played around and around with this unit though and it's really hard to make an army which benefits from Karadreads Ld re-rolls and makes that unit viable. In the end for Karadreads cost you could just get four more Paladins. If I think of something regarding this unit I'll put a post up about it but for now you can check out MVBs thoughts on Karadread and check out some lists he's put together.
Conclusion
In the end I think Karadread is too pricey and whilst he gives reliability to the army, he takes away from flexibility as you are forced to re-roll fails. Sometimes you want to fail. The relentless/twin-linked MM is nice as is the combo with Paladins (but expensive) but is it worth building an army around? Probably not. If your list was using extensive henchmen units or screens Karadread might see more use there but overall I think he's just too pricey and too vulnerable in combat whilst not providing enough for the army or individual output himself.
Marcus · 728 weeks ago
farmpunk1 26p · 728 weeks ago
MVB · 728 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 728 weeks ago
In the end I'm just torn with him. One side says yay and the other says nay. I agree with Clayman below, if he was transportable it'd be an easy and often yay.
How have your games with him turned out so far?
MVB · 728 weeks ago
This, for instance, is very difficult to deal with:
Karamazov
3 Plasma Cannon Servitors, 5 Warrior Acolytes (yeah, they sit at backfield and fail to fire half the time merrily)
10 Grey Knight Terminators w/ 6 Hammers, 4 Halberds, 2 Psycannons
10 PAGK w/ 2 Psycannons, Rhino
10 PAGK w/ 2 Psycannons, Rhino
10 PAGK w/ 2 Psycannons, Rhino
10 PAGK w/ 2 Psycannons, Rhino
10 PAGK w/ 2 Psycannons, Rhino
50 nigh unbreakable knights and 10 unbreakable terminators to protect Karamazov in combat from anything that would actually threaten him ... and the rhinos are enough to get the PAGK to midfield and shooting; Karamazov and termies get there in time to defend from any legit combat threats, and 10 unbreakable/non-fearless termies are fine in combat, esp. bolstered by rad and hammerhand
The problem is, again, it's boring. A lot of GK lists are.
Kirby 118p · 728 weeks ago
Naz · 728 weeks ago
200 pts, T5 4w guy - > needs 4 hits from s8+ to kill
4 paladins, 220 pts, 5++ -> needs a bit more then 5 hits s8+ to kill
it sounds nice, but imo buy 4 more paladins beter spend of 200 pts then this guy, cuz he actualy dosent gives any survability vs s8+ (if i dont count blasts)
squ1rrel · 728 weeks ago
and also 3wounds on him, means he's still alive.
3 missile wounds on paladins = 2 dead pallies (1/3 to save)
I think I might actually make a list with him in it, i miss the day of being able to underguess my d-cannons on fortuned seer council in combat.
abortedsoul · 728 weeks ago
Squ1rrel · 728 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 728 weeks ago
Auretious Taak · 728 weeks ago
This makes karamazov interesting in combo-armies.
Specifically a Grand master scouting DreadKnight with Teleporter or Scouting Interceptors. It means first turn accurate barrages onto enemies whilst taking at most with the dreadknight a single wound.
More: Karamazov+Puragators - 300pts base. Throw in the above. Now Karamazov can accurately psyk-out bomb psykers first turn, against units of psykers, massed perils instantly in addition to str 6 ap 4 funsies, that's VERY useful. Then there's a dreadknight to contend with as well, lol.
I guess I'm working karamazov and a Dreadknight into my different styled support army...
artemi7 78p · 728 weeks ago
Vilicate · 728 weeks ago
Basically, as you have already posted, he's a great model to take punches in the face for Paladins. Plus, the addition of a MC'd BS4 multi-melta should never be overlooked, especially in the GK book, where melta is one of the more rare weapon types.
Mattias · 728 weeks ago
Lord Sandwich · 728 weeks ago
Clayman · 728 weeks ago
Messanger of Death · 728 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 728 weeks ago
Messanger of Death · 728 weeks ago
soylent · 728 weeks ago
Warding Stave gives you a 2+ invun in close combat. does this apply to Karadread's orbital lazor?
Desc440 · 728 weeks ago
artemi7 78p · 728 weeks ago
He's in combat.
He takes a wound.
As written, it works against wounds taken while in combat. This applies to getting Perils with Hammerhand, too.
I'd say in either case, RAW supports it here.
Desc440 · 728 weeks ago
Besides, I mean really, it's pretty clear that this shouldn't work. If the damned staff isn't powerful enough to stop normal shooting attacks how the hell is it supposed to do anything against A FUCKING LANCE STRIKE?!?
artemi7 78p · 728 weeks ago
It says that protects against wounds "caused in close combat". Are you in combat still during the shooting phase? Yes, you are, otherwise you could shoot the models normally.
blacksly · 728 weeks ago
Sounds like there will be disagreements on what is "caused in close combat"... is the target's situation that matters? The source of the wounds? The phase? Are you in CC if you take a Dangerous Terrain test while charging into a unit? What if a blast scatters onto you (deliberately like with K-Blaster or just random scatter)? Vindicare Assassin from Witch Hunters sniping you while you're engaged?
This needs a FAQ for more than the K-Blaster's "shoot into CC" ability.
TheWolfsLunch 61p · 728 weeks ago
I think it'll be unlikely due to the OSR being a shooting attack, although I wouldn't rule it out.
Auretious Taak · 728 weeks ago
Valtiel · 727 weeks ago
wisdom like silence · 727 weeks ago
There are no Monstrous Creatures with the Independant Character rule, that I know of. Second, nothing allows you to single out models in units with shooting attacks, save special things like the Vindicare, Telion, and Jaws of the World Wolf.
Valtiel · 727 weeks ago
I seem to recall a debate a while back about the Hive Tyrant and Tyrant Guard. Apparently MCs with the Independant Character USR which join units of non-MCs can be picked out in shooting. The Hive Tyrant +Guard gets a free pass because the Shieldwall rule doesn't actually make the big guy into an IC, though.
Bit of a wierd rule if there aren't actually any IC-MCs, but that's GW for you.