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"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit

Monday, April 11, 2011
Tyranids, Grey Knights, and 5E

Let me start this off with a small preface: those of you who've read my articles in the past, in particular those on Tyranids, know that I don't generally subscribe to the "sky is falling" nonsense that pervades so much of the 40K blogging and forum community. Tyranids are not horrible and worthless; their MCs, while sometimes overcosted, are mostly just fine and usable and there are only a scant few worthless units in the codex. I've done a fairly extensive exploration of alternate builds, obscure units, and various nonstandard Tyranid ideas of all sorts, and I've sent my Tyranids to more than just a few tournaments with a fair degree of success- and the failures have been my fault more than the codex's every time. So I hope you'll understand that when I write this article, it's not simply jumping aboard the "omg GK so gud!" bandwagon that is making its rounds through the community these days, it's because I have sat down and taken what I feel to be a fair assessment of the situation. With that said...
The Grey Knights codex marks the beginning of what I fear to be a waning phase for the Tyranid codex, which is all the more unfortunate because it's such a recent release that we can't expect to see another for at least two to three years. It's not the very start- from the time it was released, the book has had some issues, not the least of which being overcrowding in the Elite slot, but these were compensatable and left several major builds open even in high-level play. The release of the FAQ, however, effectively shattered any kind of reserves strategy and made the Doom effectively impotent, along with our psychic defense. However, the "primary" build for the codex was largely untouched and continued to be a pretty viable contender in tournaments even against heavy mech armies. Although slotted into a fairly limited range of top-end builds, Tyranids are/were still a strong army in most ways.
However, with the release of the Grey Knights book, the pendulum is starting to gain momentum. Tyranids have no easy answers to many of Grey Knight's primary strategies and GK have innate resistance to many of Tyranid's strategies. There is an inherent inequality between the two armies on the table, and one that I fear will spell the end of Tyranids as a competitive choice at tournaments.
That comes off as rather over-dramatic, I'm sure, but to clarify: against non-GK armies, nothing has changed. Tyranids are still able to hold their own against IG, SW, BA, DE, SM, and all the other books, assuming that you are playing on a good table, don't have silly missions/tournament rules, etc. However, Tyranids will be fighting a steep uphill battle against anything resembling a well-designed Grey Knights army, as they suffer from too many inherent weaknesses against them.
A good, balanced army should be able to stand a chance against every other top army in the field; if you struggle fantastically to beat one of the other main contenders, that is a sign that you need to tweak your army design. ("Rock" armies and such that just intend to present a ridiculous threat and hope to ride to victory on its back are different, hence why I do not consider them "good" armies, as they will too often face up against their nemesis and fold. This doesn't stop them from getting into the top ranks, though.) With the addition of GK, Tyranids can no longer be expected to fit this criterion: any build which functions effectively against GK will be largely worthless against the rest of the field, and vice versa.
The How and Why
I've mentioned that Grey Knights are more or less perfectly poised to tear Tyranids up, and so as to support my position I'm going to elucidate on why I think this is true. It's nothing as simple as a single piece of wargear or rule option, but rather a combination of multiple different factors that work together to effectively demolish the Tyranid strategy. Where other armies may/will have options to fight these factors, Tyranids, with their book lacking in many areas, cannot, and just as importantly many of them seem to attack Tyranids' key weaknesses in ways that aren't really a problem for other armies.
1. Instant-kills
One of Grey Knights' big strengths is that they have extensive access to ways to eliminate "elite" armies- Force Weapons all around make them able to cut down anything that relies on an armor save for survivability and even multiwound models aren't safe from them, as they can trigger their NFW's to kill it. This is annoying to most MEQ armies, as they can eliminate important HQ models with their basic troopers and GK basic units will almost always trump their counterparts in a fight, but for Tyranids it's disastrous. Lacking any invulnerable saves (unlike other codices) the ability to chop through armor saves is dangerous enough, but our models are almost all reliant on having big piles of wounds in their place to have a measure of survivability, and the various insta-kill mechanics highlight the lack of Eternal Warrior in our book anywhere.
It's not simply the NFW's even; Inquisitors can get Null Rods. Librarians can get Warp Rift. Brotherhood Champs get Heroic Sacrifice. Valeria has the Hyperstone Maze. The Callidius has her phase sword. More than any other codex, Grey Knights can slaughter multiwound models with relative ease, and many/most of these also mitigate or bypass the high toughness that we rely on to protect us from a lot of things, all the more so because of Rad Grenades, Hammerhand, Might, or Daemonhammers.
2. Extensive anti-infantry
This is hardly the first army we've seen with ways to cut down our monstrous creatures and other multiwound models, though. Dark Eldar and Space Wolves both have good ways of doing this and we can mitigate them reasonably effectively while maintaining the strong offensive front we need in order to be effective because those same armies had trouble dealing with one of our other main strengths, namely the ability to flood the battlefield with a tide of resilient, dangerous small critters. Neither army particularly appreciated being drowned in Termagants, especially when they were backed by Catalyst, Paroxysm, or both, and this ended up being our strategy against a variety of threats that our MCs weren't really equipped to handle.
GK, however, come standard with a Storm Bolter, which is extremely bad because it not only shoots harder than a Bolter at most ranges, it also is 100% mobile, which negates another Tyranid advantage. In fact, even their "heavy" weapons are at least partially mobile, allowing them to effectively shoot on the move in much the same way we do. Moreover, those same weapons achieve their ends through having high-strength and high ROF (along with Rending), which allow them to function as secondary anti-infantry guns. Combined, these mean that most of their units can put out a prodigious hail of shots, allowing them to cut down our smaller units in order to expose the big bugs behind them and apply their ID weapons as explained above. Not only Storm Bolters and Psycannons but also Autocannons, Heavy Bolters, Incinerators, the Purifier aura, Acolytes with Boltguns/SBs, etc, all contribute to this weight of fire.
It is this one-two punch that GK can deliver that forms the basis of their strength against Tyranids- we cannot rely on our MCs or multiwound models to defeat them, because they have incredibly effective ways to kill those. At the same time, we cannot rely on our smaller critters to defeat them, because virtually everything in their army is also quite proficient at cutting them down.
3. Fortitude
Unlike the above points, this boils down to a single, devastating ability: Grey Knight vehicles are all but immune to being stunned or shaken. Against other armies this is certainly strong- after all, the concept of suppression fire is an important one, and being resistant/immune to it is a very big deal under any circumstances. However, Tyranids are specifically reliant on it for several reasons; for one, we have a variety of weapons that take penalties to the damage table, such as Venom Cannons and Devourers, both of which fulfill useful suppression roles but have very little chance of actually killing a tank. For two, we lack the same abundance of anti-tank guns that many armies can field, so Tyranids are often forced to suppress some targets targets use assaults to wreck them in later turns. Suppression is key to the Tyranid strategy, because it allows us to mitigate the effects of enemy transports by negate two units (the transport + whatever's inside it) by shooting once, and if they choose to disembark, they are effectively doing our job for us.
GK, however, don't have that problem. 90% of the time, they simply shrug off the effects and keep doing what they were doing anyways, and even a Perils will probably do little but continue to keep them in place without lasting effect. Combined with the short range of our psychic defense, GK can generally just sort of walk away from us and shrug off any but the heaviest of AT fire we put out, which makes the necessary step of de-meching them extremely difficult.
4. Grenades and other runners-up.
There are tons of other little factors that, while not crippling, make fighting GK extremely difficult. Rad and Psychotroke Grenades, for example, can make a fight VERY difficult for Tyranids- the former can reduce MCs to T5 (which doubles the chances of most Force Weapons killing them), while the latter makes any kind of assault potentially very dangerous- hitting yourself, striking last, etc, are all potentially crippling effects, and neither type of grenade can be mitigated by assaulting the unit, as they work both offensively AND defensively. On top of that, every GK unit carries Psyk-Out Grenades, which shut down many of our big critters, and have extensive other anti-psyker tech that can cause havoc for some of our mainline units. Sanctuary further exacerbates our own lack of grenades of any kind and punishes large Termagant units at the same time. Dreadknights make a mockery of most our MCs, getting not only 2+ saves and an Invuln but S10, heavy weapons, and better-than-Wings as well. and for a drastically lower price.
All of this, of course, is talking about the army's components in isolation, which is hardly definitive proof of anything. (It's the reason that Grey Hunters are not simply extra-better Tacticals, for example.) Much as I would love to go into the details of how GK armies function and what some of their build options are- and how these relate to Tyranids- such a discussion is probably beyond the scope of even this increasingly-lengthy article, and I expect that it would be limited by my own knowledge of exactly how GK function on the tabletop at this point. I am sufficiently confident of what I do know, however, to say that the above advantages are all functional within the context of a normal Grey Knights army, being as they are largely core to the design of the army, so virtually any build one can conceive of will still be able to take full advantage of them.
This should also not be misconstrued as "Tyranids can't beat GK"; they can, it's just an unusually hard fight for them, more on par with Necrons-vs-anything than matchups of the various 5E codices against each other.
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Tyranids, Grey Knights, and 5E
2011-04-11T23:09:00+10:00
AbusePuppy
AbusePuppy|Analysis|Grey Knights|Tyranids|
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guest · 728 weeks ago
Von Lettow-Vorbeck · 728 weeks ago
Seriously though, where's the dislike button gone? Is Kirby that afraid of the ~4 negative reviews that each article got, or is this just trying to ape facebook? (lulz strawman, I wonder who'll correct me ...)
Tratchenberg · 728 weeks ago
In particular, Kirby posted his attempt at making flames on his purifier halberds, it had at least 2 dislikes when I last saw it. How do you dislike a hobby article? There's nothing to disagree with from a hobby point of view, Kirby tried something and made a post about it.
To me it says there are people out there who don't like the site and are vindictive enough to take advantage of the dislike button hence its removal.
Von Lettow-Vorbeck · 728 weeks ago
I'd be more sympathetic if there had ever been a seriously vocal opposition going all youtube on his ass, but removing the button just makes him look cowardly, as opposed to open. At least to me. One way involves giving your critics the ability to demonstrate their numerical inferiority, the other makes it look like you're hiding from judgement.
Not that it really matters one way or the other in the end, but it's still something that's niggling at me currently. I'll be over it by tomorrow.
CalPerr · 728 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 728 weeks ago
Call it the psychologist in me but I could write a paper on what that could do to potential readers, etc.
If it doesn't come back exactly the same at least it will come back in some form.
Von Lettow-Vorbeck · 728 weeks ago
Potential readership are going to be curious enough to read what's posted - I know I was despite the misgivings your site gave me at first (oh relax, it was just due to your ugly old layout design. Is mooch better now and I never clicked the dislike button over it).
That and I bet there are people who clicked 'like' without reading article. Are they not also a problem?
Kirby clearly doesn't believe in democracy and that's a fact. Sort of. (Playing devils advocate = fun, to use my leet equation skillz)
Bro_Lo 82p · 728 weeks ago
Zjoekov 74p · 728 weeks ago
At least have the balls and say what exactly is wrong with the article. And no, those 2 lines in broken English don't count.
Kirby 118p · 728 weeks ago
If you disagree with the opinion, try rebutting the analysis.
loudanddeep 48p · 728 weeks ago
Do you play nids? Do you play GK? Do you play BOTH?
Play both for true objectivity and perspective. All else is subjective speculation by definition.
Yes, the GK are very powerful, overall I think they are in line with most of the other 5th codices.
They have a lot of challenges themselves; especially in lower point games where unless very careful and disciplined with list building, a GK player can run out of points and have no mutually supporting units or tactical synergies.
However, while the sky is not falling, I play BOTH and have to agree with a lot of ap's points.
Nids are going to have to adapt...as we do to all codices, but I have to admit this one is just really rough.
It has a lot of points which really either nerf some of the nid advantages (as he listed) or mock our point costs (a dreadknight is how much? I get that its internally balanced with the GK codex....but....have you seen a carnifex's stat line and cost?).
So, in playing both nids and GK, I am *hoping* that I can take "a lot of time and energy to figure out " how to win with bugs.
But, I can tell you this, also as playing both GK and bugs....it will take about a tenth of the time and energy to figure out how to beat the bugs ....and THAT is the point....
dexterium · 728 weeks ago
Zjoekov 74p · 728 weeks ago
thornyroses · 728 weeks ago
However, it became pretty apparent that Tyranids seemed 'broken' somewhat, meaning the main reliance on high T and multiwound for resilience...add to that the necessity of proper terrain because without cover you get smoked. It doesn't come as any surprise that newer codices just point out and exploit these weak design facets even more (it has been stated on this site numerous times there are 'tough matchups' for Nids..the list will grow i believe). Definately have to give GW two thumbs down for the effort, especially after the FAQ debacle. New threat to the galaxie, quite laughable. Time will tell if Nids are truly the poor orphans of 5E, but it seems the evidence is mounting, also that GW just doesn't give a crap.
farmpunk1 26p · 728 weeks ago
blacksly · 728 weeks ago
Nohman · 728 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 728 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 728 weeks ago
SitW doesn't really affect their vehicles much because of its short range. By the time you're within 12" of them, you have already either won or lost the battle.
Leszek Cyfer · 728 weeks ago
Orks have got purified to death too :(
And now for a change please give us some strategies that Tyranids and Orks can use to effectively stop GK from using their strong points.
From my point of view I'd have to outshoot them which is unlikely :/
blacksly · 728 weeks ago
GK purifiers will rape Orks within charge range (12"), but the usual Ork problem of "enemies can outrange us and keep moving to deny us shots for some turns" won't exist vs GKs since the GKs will generally have a lot of their firepower limited to 24" also. So they do face issues, but actually gain in some other areas. Also, bullets take down GKs as easily as other MEQs, and they are more expensive. And force weapons vs Orks? Heh. All in all, unless you're facing Crowe and Purifier spam, you should be able to concentrate fire on the units with Cleansing Flame, and then shoot and advance upon the rest. Having 1 FW attack won't help GKs at all when they're assaulted by squads of 12+ Orks.
Nids, same idea. I can see Devourer Gaunts becoming more popular... advance into range, stay in cover, trade shots. At 10 points a model with 4+ cover save, vs 20+ with a 3+ armor save, and both models having the same firepower (short of heavy weapons), I think the "death of the gaunt swarms" is exaggerated. Again, Hormagaunts are, like Ork Boyz, going to swamp GK units without Cleansing Flame... dump shots into the Purifiers, rush hordes at the other units. Unlike other SMs, GK don't hide inside their boxes as well since their firepower is more spread out over the entire squad, thus there may be more models on the field to shoot at.
Mahu · 728 weeks ago
I think when you actually start seeing Grey Knights on the table, the advantages Tyranids have will become apparent.
Tyranids really don't care about fortitude that much, as the shooting from GK vehicles really don't threaten Tyranid MCs like other codexes. A Psyrilfleman still gives us armor saves, Psycannons only cut through our armor on a rend, etc. So just like versus any other army, we take advantage of cover, and keep Tervigons out of hood range to FNP critical units, which the Grey Knights have few answers too at range.
Afraid of their awesome grenades, charge them with something unimportant. Throw a massive "free" gaunt squad in there, and hold them up for two turns, then charge them. Their grenade bonus will be negated.
I don't even sweat force weapons that much. Yes, they are a threat, but, because of their elite nature it is extremely easy to tell where GK players would apply their force. Gaunts, Gargoyles, etc. can provide good screens to unfavorable assaults, and stacking show coverage will make getting the force weapon bonus difficult. On top of that, if there is no character in the unit, you ain't havinging hammerhand and force weapons, which means you only wound an MC on a 6. Can they pull it off? No doubt, but picking and choosing assaults is the advantage we have because we are generally fielding more models on the table.
Also, the things that work well on any other MEQ army, also works surprisingly well on them because of their low numbers. Genestealers still chomp through them, especially with poison. Only Purifiers are scary to the Genestealer.
I think their will be certain GK builds that will offer a lot of Tyranid builds a bad match up. But I think when you exam both armies in the context of what a good tournament GK build will look like versus what a good tournament Tyranid build will look like, and I am not prepared to write them off.
Kirby 118p · 728 weeks ago
Psycannons dont need to cut through armor. When just the basic count of your psycannons generates enough wounds to reliably drop a over one MC, their firepower is pretty strong against you. Correct with FNP in terms of firepower (i.e. on Hive Guard and Tervigons) but it is of less use on Gants in combat due to power weapons. This makes holding up units in combat more difficult but if done, a very viable option as you suggested.
Correct re force weapons as I discussed below.
Genestealers are hampered by servo-skulls but are a good unit in terms of efficiency. I heard Archnomad likes them :p .
I don't think Puppy is writing them off (I hope not at least!) but rather looking at the advantages GK have over Tyranids. It's not 'omgwecan'twin' but I do think it is a difficult battle more often than not for Tyranids and I think this was the point Puppy was trying to get across. There are advantages of for Tyranids (see my response below) but in the end I think we both believe the GK advantages outweigh the Tyranid advantages because the GK play to their strengths (shooting) and force the Tyranids to rely almost exclusively on combat and actual tank killing rather than suppression backed up by combat.
abusepuppy 121p · 728 weeks ago
Fortitude is extremely important; I'm not sure why you think 'Nids don't care about it.
You can only "negate" the grenades that way if you successfully hold them up for two turns, which is not likely. You can't use Catalyst to mitigate casualties (NFW cut through it) and No Retreat + the effects of the grenades are likely to mince you pretty badly.
You seem to have missed the part where I explained that their high-ROF firepower stands a good chance of cutting down our screening units; assuming that you will have extensive Gaunt/Gargoyle screens alive when you reach them strikes me as optimistic at best.
(I am aware that they cannot have Hammerhand and Force Weapons active at the same time without an IC; I'm not sure where you thought I said that they could.)
Genestealers are not a fan of Storm Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Psycannons, etc; it's rather unlikely they will survive the two turns of shooting to get to the GK, and even if they do they still need to get through NF Halberds, Sanctuary, etc, in order to actually do anything.
Victor · 682 weeks ago
loudanddeep 48p · 728 weeks ago
I also play nids, and have to say that suppression is VERY important to nids. The psyfledreds are deadly to MC's for the exact same reason they are deadly to Ctan; they force saves. Everyone knows plasma and melta's are deadly to nids...but hopefully, they have a stack of wounds left by the time those weapons get in range. This does not work with enough S7/S6 shots coming down field.
I have run a few test games against nids with my GK, and now, granted, since I play nids, I rarely lose against them (know they army) but it was a game against a very good player, and it was such a slaughter we called it at 3....and I was rooting for the nid player!!!!
Also, those comments about "more models on the table' and genstealers leave out one point that a lot of folks miss; the best weapon in the GK codex is not the psycannon...its the quantity of stormbolters. These are amazing, and they are everywhere.
Its a torrent of accurate (relatively) dangerous shots at 24" from marines that can move. This is like facing an entire army of necron immortals....for a lot less cost.
However, I DO AGREE that I am not ready to "write them off"....but, lets just say it went from "work" to "really fraken hard work" in dealing with other 5th codices.
mathhammer · 728 weeks ago
Got to say the Grey Knight was the final straw for me putting the Tyranids into the display case.
btw: You forgot servo skulls verses genestealers.
Their ability to kill my multi wound creatures and the the other factors mentioned in the article just highlights the weakness in the tyranid codex. Recently I had to fight an ork army with a custom force field generator. It's a sinking feeling when you realize the trucks are immune to basic gaunts and the flames in the Ar14 truck are removing entire squads.
Tyranids are a hobby army these days, not a tournament army.
Thatguyoverthere · 728 weeks ago
I'm not sure how much of the other stuff competitive lists will bring... Brotherhood Champs seem to be rated as underwhelming.
2) All of those weapons are AP4 though. That means we get a save unless they rend. Or, if that fails, Tyranids excel at cover saves. I generate my own cover by layering my units. I played 6 shrikes at the GT this weekend and they almost always changed the game for me. Never once were they blown away by ID weapons (because those were gunning for my Trygons/Tervigons/Zoanthropes). We also get to keep FNP unless it rends.
Thatguyoverthere · 728 weeks ago
4) Do they all come standard with those grenades? I thought it was limited to only certain choices or you had to pay for the upgrades. The dreadknight is kind of an insult. Why do they get the best monstrous creature in the game? My Trygons would love to be 130 points with a 2+/5++ save and the ability to be jump infantry.
Trulle · 728 weeks ago
Ben · 728 weeks ago
Thatguyoverthere · 728 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 728 weeks ago
Gaunt shields are unlikely to hold against the weight of fire they can put out; 30+ Storm Bolters, 12+ HB/PsyCan, etc. That is a LOT of firepower to be facing.
Thatguyoverthere · 728 weeks ago
If they play like IG, then yes we're screwed. Space marines who play like IG screw us too. However, GK played as space marines shouldn't be too hard.
What do I mean by "play like IG?" Tons of Chimeras and razorbacks. What do I mean by "play like space marines?" Storm ravens, jump squads and dreadnought/dreadknight.
Desc440 · 728 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 728 weeks ago
Thatguyoverthere · 728 weeks ago
Thatguyoverthere · 728 weeks ago
GK? Yes please, let me play them. I get my armor saves against them and they take less infantry models that I do. They're powers get canceled by shadow in the warp a lot of the time and they're special characters are push overs in close combat. I would play them over max razorbacks/chimeras from other armies any day.
loudanddeep 48p · 728 weeks ago
You are correct on one thing; some of their special characters are pushovers in close combat. Those are the ones no one will ever take.
The good ones however, are very good.
Also, they WILL have razorbacks...except, they will be unshakable S6 razorbacks....for 50points.
HERO 63p · 728 weeks ago
ian!!! · 728 weeks ago
The sky isn't falling for bugs. Sure the current interweb lists may have problems vs. Grey Knights. if so, change your lists. There are other units besides Tervigons in the codex. Shadow in the Warp will bother those Hammerhand dice roles. Lash whips negate those +2 init. halberds and gernades.
Numbers will pull down those 5 man strike squads. Poison attacks will topple the Dreadknight.
Try a different build if Grey Knights are rampaging through your bug army.
garthmichel 38p · 728 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 728 weeks ago
Thatguyoverthere · 728 weeks ago
Or hormagaunts. They're intiative 6 on the charge with adrenal glands and with toxin sacs they get a whole bunch of rerolls. 80 points nets you 30 attacks at intiative 6 with poison.
Scotty80 · 728 weeks ago
The problem with going to a Warrior/Shrike meta will the GW Psycannons/Autocannons with Psy-bolts, that can pour a lot of S8 shots into you.
abusepuppy 121p · 728 weeks ago
Twigz · 728 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 728 weeks ago
Ben · 728 weeks ago
Desc440 · 728 weeks ago
Zjoekov 74p · 728 weeks ago
-Warriors with Lashwips are potent against them in CC, so almost mandatory.
-Hive Guard are a must, keep in mind we want an allcomers list.
What do these 2 have in common? Not a 3+ save. Some people have mentioned in this thread that GK's don't worry them so much because you can take your 3+ saves, but on what exactly? The thing is that those things are often 6W MC's or the overpriced Tyrant + Guards. GK's don't realy care about that.
But to get back at the Hive Guard and Warriors: These are so easy to torrent down for GK's, it's almost a joke: Psyfleman, Pyscannons and Psybacks pump out so many high Strenght fire that you'll lose the Hive Guard pretty much turn 1 (turn 2 at best) and the Warriors when the GK's see fit to deal with them.
The rest of the Nid list just isn't all that dangerous to GK's I'm afraid. Yes, you'll stop some instakills with Shadow, but does this matter? I mean; a 50% chance of not losing your 6W MC still means a 50% chance to lose it... And when the GK's have so many attempts overall to do it it ain't looking pretty.
Thing what worries me as a main-GK player would be the Gaunts. When you worry the most about Gaunts in a Nid list, then you know Nids got it bad...
God help the Nid players when the GK player decided to bring a few Incinerators too...
Thing is: Can you build an allcomers Tyranid list? That's the question people shouldn't forget about. It's nice when you can build a list which does okay against GK's, but that's kinda useless when it still folds against other armies. (unless you play in a local club where people only play GK's ofc. METAMETAMETA)
@oldgrue · 728 weeks ago
By way of obvious counter examples:
Argument 1: Instant Kill - this presumes that an army facing GKs is mostly multiwound creatures that the GK have an advantage over. What happened to the I1 GK facing down a 3A bonesword wielding warrior? That Halberd suddenly is I3 and less threatening.
2: Anti-infantry - Hang on a second. We can almost rely on 55 free points of troops per Tervigon/round - arguably 77 from sharing adrenal/toxin about. We're not hurting for chittering meatshields even if there is significant weight of fire inbound since there's prone to be more.
3: Fortitude - A vehicle running away from the (not necessarily) doomed MC above is fairly busy with needing to move 6+ to be reliably out of reach of a MC. This actually makes the Mawloc more valuable with its recurring strikes.
4: A Dreadknight is just a Terminator with Monstrous Creature tacked on. None too terrifying yet. Awesome jump pack costs another 50% making it a ... and with that gatling psilencer its still pretty much a Dakkafex, or a Trygon Prime. Psyk-out grenades are Psyker only lash whips - and since out bigger critters are low I anyway that's no real impact.
The proliferation of Force weapons means that the Unit in question gets to use either another power or ID (and risk the related SitW test) further curtailing the powers in play. With SitW - if we've got fair synapse coverage we should see about 50% of their powers fail and the chances of killing off a squadmember increase markedly as well.
Its a fallacy to think that every force should be so evenly matched that a "balanced'" force shouldn't have what is still an unfavorable matchup. This is similar to thinking that every class in a MMO should be roughly equivalent - there are matches that need to be unfavorable to maintain the uniqueness of a particular army (class).
mathhammer · 728 weeks ago
2. storm bolter fire or cleansing flame
3. warpquake from inside the vehicle
4. Dreadknights mehh
The balance here is the tyranids have a couple of tricks, usually most armies can stop one of them. A standard Gk knight stops all of them. Like I said above Tyranids were barely a tournament army before GK and after there clearly not a tournament army.
Around the game shop? go for it, any army is just as good as any other one.
degravemind 41p · 728 weeks ago
GOOSE · 728 weeks ago
I would actually say that shrikes would have a bad time against GK because of the easy acess they get to S5 shooting that goes right through their 5+ armor, forcing them to always hug cover- not to mention the dakkanaughts that ID them. Also, the powers like sanctuary hamstring cc units quite a bit. Remember, sanctuary effects the gray knight's units within 12, not yours, so that means Cortez sitting in a rhino/chimera in the back field can cover a whole lot of real estate in difficult and dangerous terrain.
loudanddeep 48p · 728 weeks ago
Was the GK player experienced in the game? Were they experienced in playing against nids?
Again, I being a nid player, I do rather well playing against them....some armies more than other.
But I can say that with GK...its just plain easy...or at least my gk lists.
I think a lot of GK players are over underestimating the value of heavy bolters and psydreds...Sure, 24" is great for walking up and shooting...but for long range weapons give the ability to project force to various parts of the board to give localized fire support - this is critical.
Rotating Panda · 728 weeks ago
Now, if they let us play our army the fluffy way and field a billion, billion units overrunning the opposing armies planet, we'd have the best codex ever!
Rotating Panda · 728 weeks ago
archont · 728 weeks ago
Theres 2 things GreyKnights do. 1) henchmen fuck you all and they're one of the most powerfull lists out there
2) GreyKnights. And suddenly the dex is really balanced and fun.
Lyracian 59p · 728 weeks ago
Megad00mer 57p · 728 weeks ago
Overcosted units
Almost complete lack of Frag Grenades
No access to Eternal Warrior
Almost complete lack of Invulnerable Saves
An FAQ that took an already difficult to use Codex, and nerfed it even more (for really no good reason).
No other (current 5 edition) army has all of these problems. Every army has it's strengths and weaknesses. The key to beating said armies is to avoid/nullify their strengths while taking advantage of their weaknesses. For GK, they automatically do that against Tyranids with everything they have. Every weakness in our book becomes absolutely debilitating.
Kirby 118p · 728 weeks ago
In the end GK are expensive Marines but do have some very good tools in which to deal with Tyranids which often exacerbates the issues already identified in the codex.
loudanddeep 48p · 728 weeks ago
Remember in school that kid who got picked last at kickball and the jocks that mocked him?
Guess which one is Cruddace, and which one is ward?
Desc440 · 728 weeks ago
Remember: people said that DE would be the nail in the Nids' coffin...
abusepuppy 121p · 728 weeks ago
Tyranids have a lot of strong counters to DE- open-topped vehicles and T3/5+ troops mean they are just as vulnerable to most of our guns as we are to theirs. GK do not suffer from this two-way imbalance; they can shrug off most of our fire while theirs us devastating to us.
Timff8 · 728 weeks ago
Timff8 · 728 weeks ago
Timff8 · 728 weeks ago
Timff8 · 728 weeks ago
Timff8 · 728 weeks ago
Desc440 · 728 weeks ago
Sweet lord guys, the sky isn't falling!
Kirby 118p · 728 weeks ago
1)Force Weapons – I don’t think this is as big as it has been made out to be. In my several playtests with GK against Nids this has come up once on a Tervigon with 2W remaining but the simple fact of the matter is, the firepower is more likely to be dropping wounds from the MCs regardless and the fact that the whole army has power weapons and is therefore capable of reliably putting 1-2 wounds on an MC in combat (or more with Hammerhand) is more painful. Against the majority of targets that Force Weapons are useful you’ll also be in Shadow range and an 15% chance of your Justicar exploding sucks. Obviously this is a different scenario with ICs/high Ld squads/Brotherhood banner but Shadow will really play around with Grey Knight psychic powers. That being said I think the biggest issue Tyranids face in this regard is S8 psyfledreads. Having a reliable 8-12 S8 shots which aren’t too flash against MCs to begin with yet have perfect targets in Warriors/Raveners and are a staple in many GK lists? That hurts more so than missile launchers as they have multiple good targets (MCs + T4 multi-wound models).
2)This is I think the kicker for GK against Tyranids. Their bog standard firepower (S4/5 stormbolters, S7 rending psycannons) just deals with Tyranids very well. This is the exact same for Dark Eldar (darklight and poisoned) but then the Tyranid firepower works very well against the Dark Eldar as well. In the end, without even factoring in potential Tyranid armies, most GK armies are well-equipped to deal with them.
3)Another kicker. Most of you have read a lot on how Tyranids rely on suppression fire to ensure their MCs can cross the field of fire. Fortitude makes suppression really difficult and whether or not Shadow works on this ability, the backfield units are going to keep pounding away unless you have something like a Trygon Prime.
4)Grenades are just awesome fun but as Puppy mentioned can really hurt Tyranids who rely on their high toughness and good save to help them. I don’t think lowering the Toughness value has any effect in terms of instant death but suddenly basic squads are doing more power weapon wounds (as discussed above).
I think 2 and 3 are where GK gain the clear edge against Tyranids tbh. I don’t think the match-up is as bad as Necrons vs. Anyone however but I do think it is a much tougher battle than one could expect when using a 5th edition army operating under the premise of balance. That being said I think we need to look at the other side of the coin in how Tyranids are effective against GK as well.
Kirby 118p · 728 weeks ago
2)They hate combat. Even with power weapons and a bunch of grenades, GK don’t want to get into combat. We’ve said this before and against Tyranids it’s the same. Force Weapons + things like Hammerhand/Rad Nades/Might/etc are all potent combinations against the big gribblies of the Tyranid army but the Tyranid army is often better in combat. As said above, supported Termagants are hyper price efficient against GK and anything with lash whips is going to really help. Regardless, GK are at their best (particularly against Tyranids) when they are shooting. Although they are more capable against multi-wound models than many armies in combat, they are more expensive so should have this sort of bonus.
3)Shadow in the Warp. Against most armies SitW is pretty blah but it’s really going to help against GK. Although it’s range is pretty pitiful once the Tyranid army gets into assault range many of the GK powers now have to cast through something which is more likely to cause Perils (~15% iirc). On units with different Ld (i.e. Strike squads) this is very risky and even without the increased Perils chance, you’re still stopping most powers at a ~50% rate. Spells like Sanctuary hurt but are harder to get off just like Hammerhand, Force Weapons and many of the other combat abilities of the Librarian. Considering the extensive use of Psychic Powers by the Grey Knights, Shadow in the Warp is really only second to Runes of Warding due to the increased chance of Perils.
4) I'll add this one in as mahu mentioned it above but Catalyst will help a lot of of units survive from shooting. GK shooting is all about weight of fire and there is a lot of it but FNP can really help certain MCs and Hive Guard survive all those wounds they have to make, just like against poisoned weaponry in Dark Eldar. Passive GK psychic defenses also don't stop this so unless they have brought a Libby it will get off quite reliably and can really improve the survivability of important units at range.
If we take out Puppy’s opinion on how he feels in regards to the match-up this article gives a very good look at how GK can deal with Tyranids. If we add in how Tyranids can deal with GK we have an excellent army comparison and we can see Tyranids have it a little worse off than against other armies. Again, if we compare them to dark Eldar their firepower is perfect against them whilst the Dark Eldar firepower is the same in reverse. Whilst Tyranids have advantages against GK these advantages aren't as significant as the GK advantages over them and is based upon a firepower discrepancy. Remember many Tyranid lists are based upon firepower to suppress armies and having that effectively taken away against an army which has excellent firepower against you is goingt o lead to an uphill struggle.
Desc440 · 728 weeks ago
Somthing to keep in mind ref suppression of vehicles: while they may be harder to supress, you're also generally going to be seeing less of them than in a standard Marine army. On top of that, in most cases this is going to be AV 11/AV 12 vehicles, which are targets Hive Guard can at least glance/pen reliably.
I mean really, which is worse for a Nid army: a GK Psybacks/3 psyflemen army, or a BA razors/3 baal/3 pred army?
Kirby 118p · 728 weeks ago
Again, not an auto-win but certainly more of an uphill battle than against other bad matchups for Tyranids I believe.
mathhammer · 728 weeks ago
The other thing is if you look at , the options people have suggested they come out of the troops slots. just how many warriors, genestealer , termagaunts, hormagaunts can you get out of 6 spots. You can move the warriors to the fast attack slot (a choice i like a lot) but I feel to handle armor in the current MSU era Tyranids need to shift towards a harpy style list with no heavy support choices.
Desc440 · 728 weeks ago
Not all GK list will have, or even need, a libby. They sure are nice, but they are also a bit of a pain to fit in a list due to their termy armour.
Also, unless I'm missing something, the tanks won't be getting a 5+ cover. They will be getting a 3+ cover, or none at all.
mathhammer · 728 weeks ago
stealth + 6+ == 5+ cover.
If the the tank doesn't have a cover save than the power grants a 6+
I think the Libby is fairly big in GK list. I wish he wasn't in terminator armor, but so it is.
Desc440 · 728 weeks ago
So 3+ or 6+, but not 5+.
Ok, say you use him: where are you going to put him?
mathhammer · 728 weeks ago
The first gives units within 6" the stealth USR.
The second sentenece says if your not in cover then you benefits from a 6+ cover save.
thus you get take your 6+ cover save and turn it into 5+ with stealth.
Just a variation off the SW and BA power.
Where do I put him, that is a good question, so far I have 3 answers.
1. In the middle stormraven with the terminators. (A Draigo list for a friend)
2. Buying a INQ chimera and tossing him in there.
3. In an experimental list he is the fat boy chasing the rhino(ice cream truck)
Desc440 · 728 weeks ago
As far as rides for the Libby go, a SR is a pretty big target if it also has pallies in there, plus you're more than likely not going to be sticking around with your main line if you got it to deliver the unit to the enemy's frontline. The inqui Chimera is nice till you realise it's the only vehicle without Fortitude in your list, which paints a great big bullseye on it, and running behind Rhinos, well, that has its own set of obvious problems.
mathhammer · 728 weeks ago
The Chimera has extra armor and runs behinds the rhinos with a 3+ cover save. (stealth + a 4+ cover save). The Storm raven list is a lot of storm ravens and is a fast moving army. The Chimera is in a Rhino style army that moves to midfield and camps for a while.
(I had 3 different methods for 3 different list)
Desc440 · 728 weeks ago
I guess the way you want to run the Chim makes sense, but it's still a lot of effort put into just giving the Libby a ride. Ergo, I think our dear warplord will still not be as ubiquitous in GK lists as you make him out to be, especially if my interpretation of Shrouding proves to be the correct one.
Rob40K · 728 weeks ago
The important word here is "instead".
Desc440 · 728 weeks ago
Will more gaunts die? Maybe, maybe not. After all, if you're shooting gaunts, you're not using your psycannons on the bigger targets, and Baal preds offer quite a bit of dakka to whitle hordes in BA lists, so I'm not sure how much of an increased effect all those storm bolters actually have in comparison.
blacksly · 728 weeks ago
I see a lot of "What strengths GK has against Nids". Why so little about "what weaknesses GKs have that Nids can exploit".
Offhand, I consider several GK weaknesses:
1: Lack of AP1 without henchmen, and henchmen usually are in Chimeras (thus shakeable).
2: Lack of Invuln save (with a lot of units in the Nid army ignoring saves)
3: Expensive models with 3+ save (and most everything that Nids have, that doesn't ignore armor, usually puts out a lot of wounds)
4: Lack of AP1/2 to counter FNP... Storm Bolters rape Gaunts overall, but put a 20-mass of Hormagaunts with FNP charging, using their cover abilities, and the GK weapons all of a sudden do a lot less to slow down the horde. And they can't deal with the horde in CC unless they're Purifier spam. Which can deal with Hormagaunts but not very well with Devourer-Gaunts setting up shop 13-17" away and starting a trade in expended munitions.
Nids may have to spend a few more points in dangerous Troop units (Hormagaunts, Devourer Gaunts, Genestealers) rather than treating them as throw-away units that are cheap and let you spend more on T-Fexes and Hive Guard, granted, but there are definitely tools in the Codex to handle GK with solid army builds.
Back to the grave of the Chaos Daemons, now.... :(
GOOSE · 728 weeks ago
Daemons- well, they were bad to begin with, and GKs are simply a death knell. What, you mean your slow moving (fiends aside) random deep striking assault army with no transports mishap within 12" of my lines, and I can easily fit in nearly 200 s4-7 24 inch shots into my army? Have fun.
abusepuppy 121p · 728 weeks ago
GK access to invulns is no better or worse than any other army, except that they can take Terminators as troops rather than Elites. I don't know whether that's a good idea yet, but the option is there. (note that many of their ICs have a 3++ thanks to Iron Halo + NFW.)
Only being 3+ but more expensive is very true- so how do you take advantage of this?I was unable to come up with a satisfactory solution.
Remember that double tougnhess also ignore FNP, so their Psycannons/Heavy Bolters/Autocannons will be cutting you down as well.
GK can trade fire with Devilgaunts pretty effectively considering you are paying 10pts for T3/6+ and they are paying 20pts for T4/3+.
I don't think that Hormies/Genestealers/etc are the solution, because these units are sadly lacking against almost all armies. As others have said: you can build a Tyranid army that beats GK, but then you can't beat anything else.
Daemons were never competitive; GK doesn't change anything in that respect.
blacksly · 728 weeks ago
AP1... my point was that many GK lists will feel forced to run Henchies with meltaguns in order to get the melta/AP1 shots into the list, and that those units are vulnerable to Nids, not that AP1 is desirable in a specifically anti-Nid list.
abusepuppy 121p · 728 weeks ago
Fair enough on AP1, but remember that those same squads will often contain 5pt models with Boltguns, which we don't appreciate.
Badger · 728 weeks ago
There are also many other annoying things with the GK book, be it Terminators with grenades, stackable reserve control, dirt-cheap immunity to suppression, and the ridiculously underpriced Psybolts. While it does not necessarily make GK 'broken', it does, however, leave a bitter taste to many players who feel there may be some kind of double standards whenever 5th Edition Space Marines are concerned.
mathhammer · 728 weeks ago
Mahu · 728 weeks ago
Actually, it kinda is. AP 1 and 2 bounce FNP. I think it is worth noting that very little Grey Knight shooting bounce FNP. Unlike IG or Blood Angels, very little Grey Knight ranged shooting bounces FNP. Rending does, but with the relatively short range of the psycannon, thac can be mitigated with good deployment and board control. And at the end of the day a rend will come up statistically 1 out of every 6 hits. A full purgation/ purifier squad standing still should get roughly one or 2 rends. Considering the cost of that shooting, I am perfectly fine with that. Outside of certain Razorbacks, Jokero, and a few =][= tricks, long range AP 1 and 2 is a commodity, which I believe is in the Tyranids advantage.
"GK access to invulns is no better or worse than any other army, except that they can take Terminators as troops rather than Elites. I don't know whether that's a good idea yet, but the option is there. (note that many of their ICs have a 3++ thanks to Iron Halo + NFW.)"
They are not unique in that department. Dark Angels and Space Wolves all have decent "terminators as troops" options, but they get Storm Shields, Grey Knights do not. Yes, if they keep the power weapon, they have a 4+, but that is not very impressive compared to Genestealers, Hive Tyrants, and Trygons.
A common tactic for nids will be to lock the terminators down in a grinding assault and take out one or two of them, and then second waving them with something nasty. If you position it right, a Trygon or a Hive Tyrant, can wade in, knock out the squad before they get to swing, be out of combat with the attached character, and then probably knock each other out when it is just the two models left. Considering the average cost of most non-=][= characters, I am ok with that exchange.
"Remember that double tougnhess also ignore FNP, so their Psycannons/Heavy Bolters/Autocannons will be cutting you down as well. "
Only our toughness 3 stuff. Genestealers behind a gargoyle screen with FNP are fine.
"I don't think that Hormies/Genestealers/etc are the solution, because these units are sadly lacking against almost all armies. As others have said: you can build a Tyranid army that beats GK, but then you can't beat anything else. "
I disagree, in my experience, Genestealer heavy armies are the ones winning the most games, not the supression firepower net list. I have seen stealer shock go to the final round of the hard boyz and go 8-1. Here is the list that went to the top 4 tables of the Adepticon championships, and only lost to the Guard Player playing in the final round to a victory point tie breaker:
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2011...
I wouldn't right off Genestealer focused armies. They can be extremely powerful in the hands of someone who knows how to utilize cover and board control.
abusepuppy 121p · 728 weeks ago
DA and SW both have to spend points on an expensive HQ choice in order to get Terminator troops, and their CC invulns are unreliable (unless you go with the SS squad for DA.) A 4++ is actually pretty strong when you're looking at a whole squad of them.
I am aware of multicharging tactics, they are just very risky- GK swing simul with the Trygon (although after a Tyrant) adn can cause havoc for MCs via combat resol;ution.
GK will shred the Gargoyle screen with their lighter fire and then hit the Genestealers once the screen is down- do not underestimate the firepower that 40+ Storm Bolters can put out.
I've seen the Adepticon list, but having trashed a similar list myself rather recent,y I'm not impressed.Unsupported, the Genestealers just don't do enough, as the rest of the list can't effectively apply pressure quickly enough.
Dave · 728 weeks ago
sinsynn 106p · 728 weeks ago
Everybody pack their 'Nid armies up immediately and put 'em in the closet.
You can pull them out when a new codex or new edition arrives- if such approval is given.
Until such a time arrives, everybody get on the Grey Knight bandwagon, it's sitting in the station now, and you don't wanna miss it and be labled 'non-competitive.'
Also, bring your umbrella, since the sky is falling on the Tyranids....AGAIN.
egges 8p · 727 weeks ago
1. With a simple throw of catalyst on a screening unit (I use hormagaunts to make sure the screening unit don't slow down the rest of the army) the knights have a tendency to shoot at the big ones or warriors with lash whips. This gets me to my second point.
2. Lash whipping-units kills the knights rather simply.
3. Without a librarian, the -1 to Ld-tests doesn't really make that much of an difference.
4. Warriors are great aganst grey knights. And shrikes. Lash whip, toxin sacs and no shooting weapon with instant kills against them (assuming psy-cannons to be the weapon of choice) means they can actually draw a lot of fire before going down. They are especially effective against...ahh...purifiers (guys with psychic power that wounds half of the enemy models before CC) as they have to test on 3T6 and if they succeed they only cause one casulti (at best). They will, of course, draw fire.
5. All blasts are good against grey knights. Biovores... Zoanthropes. Kill as many as normal marines but grey knights are more expensive i e more effective against grey knights.
Mikle · 682 weeks ago
I have a distinct feeling that GK book were designed to erase Dark Eldar and Nids, then Demons.
Demonhunters...pff..
Vipoid · 682 weeks ago
To be honest a 'Daemonhunter' army is a somewhat strange idea to begin with (Daemons aren't exactly know for their overwhelming player-base...).
However, Grey Knights appear to be designed to fight daemons that only appear in Ward's own mind:
1) Every single model has a force weapon, which ignores armour saves and can cause ID. Every daemon has an invulnerable save, but only a handful actually have armour saves, and none are immune to instant death. So, basically, the imperium might as well have provided their most elite army with pointy sticks, for all the good force weapons actually do against daemons.
2) There are many ways in which the GK codex seeks to nullify psykers, attack them specifically and/or do extra damage to them. However, nothing in the Daemons codex is a psyker (and also, isn't killing psykers SoB territory?).
3) Rad grenades lower toughness of enemy models for the first round of assault (ouch, but fair enough). However, they also lower the ID threshold for those models (what??). Now, aside from the fact that this goes completely against GW's usual trend of toughness-modifiers not affecting ID threshold, what's the point against daemons? They're still immune to ID, even if you make them T1, so why is this in any way necessary?
Unfortunatly, whilst those three things do next to nothing against daemons, they do a *lot* to nids. Rad grenades + hammerhand + daemonhammer = dead MC. Force weapons are horrible, in that GK have no 'safe' squads - any of their squads can potentially ID a MC - often before it gets to hit back. And, whilst negating psychic powers is not a huge thing, stopping a paroxysm can easily change the course of a game. Furthermore, 4 mindstrike missiles can down a tyrant (even if it's with tyrant guard and behind cover), without allowing it a single save.
It just seems like GK's advantages are tailored towards the wrong codex. :s