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Monday, April 11, 2011

Tyranids, Grey Knights, and 5E


Let me start this off with a small preface: those of you who've read my articles in the past, in particular those on Tyranids, know that I don't generally subscribe to the "sky is falling" nonsense that pervades so much of the 40K blogging and forum community. Tyranids are not horrible and worthless; their MCs, while sometimes overcosted, are mostly just fine and usable and there are only a scant few worthless units in the codex. I've done a fairly extensive exploration of alternate builds, obscure units, and various nonstandard Tyranid ideas of all sorts, and I've sent my Tyranids to more than just a few tournaments with a fair degree of success- and the failures have been my fault more than the codex's every time. So I hope you'll understand that when I write this article, it's not simply jumping aboard the "omg GK so gud!" bandwagon that is making its rounds through the community these days, it's because I have sat down and taken what I feel to be a fair assessment of the situation. With that said...

The Grey Knights codex marks the beginning of what I fear to be a waning phase for the Tyranid codex, which is all the more unfortunate because it's such a recent release that we can't expect to see another for at least two to three years. It's not the very start- from the time it was released, the book has had some issues, not the least of which being overcrowding in the Elite slot, but these were compensatable and left several major builds open even in high-level play. The release of the FAQ, however, effectively shattered any kind of reserves strategy and made the Doom effectively impotent, along with our psychic defense. However, the "primary" build for the codex was largely untouched and continued to be a pretty viable contender in tournaments even against heavy mech armies. Although slotted into a fairly limited range of top-end builds, Tyranids are/were still a strong army in most ways.

However, with the release of the Grey Knights book, the pendulum is starting to gain momentum. Tyranids have no easy answers to many of Grey Knight's primary strategies and GK have innate resistance to many of Tyranid's strategies. There is an inherent inequality between the two armies on the table, and one that I fear will spell the end of Tyranids as a competitive choice at tournaments.

That comes off as rather over-dramatic, I'm sure, but to clarify: against non-GK armies, nothing has changed. Tyranids are still able to hold their own against IG, SW, BA, DE, SM, and all the other books, assuming that you are playing on a good table, don't have silly missions/tournament rules, etc. However, Tyranids will be fighting a steep uphill battle against anything resembling a well-designed Grey Knights army, as they suffer from too many inherent weaknesses against them.

A good, balanced army should be able to stand a chance against every other top army in the field; if you struggle fantastically to beat one of the other main contenders, that is a sign that you need to tweak your army design. ("Rock" armies and such that just intend to present a ridiculous threat and hope to ride to victory on its back are different, hence why I do not consider them "good" armies, as they will too often face up against their nemesis and fold. This doesn't stop them from getting into the top ranks, though.) With the addition of GK, Tyranids can no longer be expected to fit this criterion: any build which functions effectively against GK will be largely worthless against the rest of the field, and vice versa.

The How and Why
I've mentioned that Grey Knights are more or less perfectly poised to tear Tyranids up, and so as to support my position I'm going to elucidate on why I think this is true. It's nothing as simple as a single piece of wargear or rule option, but rather a combination of multiple different factors that work together to effectively demolish the Tyranid strategy. Where other armies may/will have options to fight these factors, Tyranids, with their book lacking in many areas, cannot, and just as importantly many of them seem to attack Tyranids' key weaknesses in ways that aren't really a problem for other armies.

1. Instant-kills
One of Grey Knights' big strengths is that they have extensive access to ways to eliminate "elite" armies- Force Weapons all around make them able to cut down anything that relies on an armor save for survivability and even multiwound models aren't safe from them, as they can trigger their NFW's to kill it. This is annoying to most MEQ armies, as they can eliminate important HQ models with their basic troopers and GK basic units will almost always trump their counterparts in a fight, but for Tyranids it's disastrous. Lacking any invulnerable saves (unlike other codices) the ability to chop through armor saves is dangerous enough, but our models are almost all reliant on having big piles of wounds in their place to have a measure of survivability, and the various insta-kill mechanics highlight the lack of Eternal Warrior in our book anywhere.

It's not simply the NFW's even; Inquisitors can get Null Rods. Librarians can get Warp Rift. Brotherhood Champs get Heroic Sacrifice. Valeria has the Hyperstone Maze. The Callidius has her phase sword. More than any other codex, Grey Knights can slaughter multiwound models with relative ease, and many/most of these also mitigate or bypass the high toughness that we rely on to protect us from a lot of things, all the more so because of Rad Grenades, Hammerhand, Might, or Daemonhammers.

2. Extensive anti-infantry
This is hardly the first army we've seen with ways to cut down our monstrous creatures and other multiwound models, though. Dark Eldar and Space Wolves both have good ways of doing this and we can mitigate them reasonably effectively while maintaining the strong offensive front we need in order to be effective because those same armies had trouble dealing with one of our other main strengths, namely the ability to flood the battlefield with a tide of resilient, dangerous small critters. Neither army particularly appreciated being drowned in Termagants, especially when they were backed by Catalyst, Paroxysm, or both, and this ended up being our strategy against a variety of threats that our MCs weren't really equipped to handle.

GK, however, come standard with a Storm Bolter, which is extremely bad because it not only shoots harder than a Bolter at most ranges, it also is 100% mobile, which negates another Tyranid advantage. In fact, even their "heavy" weapons are at least partially mobile, allowing them to effectively shoot on the move in much the same way we do. Moreover, those same weapons achieve their ends through having high-strength and high ROF (along with Rending), which allow them to function as secondary anti-infantry guns. Combined, these mean that most of their units can put out a prodigious hail of shots, allowing them to cut down our smaller units in order to expose the big bugs behind them and apply their ID weapons as explained above. Not only Storm Bolters and Psycannons but also Autocannons, Heavy Bolters, Incinerators, the Purifier aura, Acolytes with Boltguns/SBs, etc, all contribute to this weight of fire.

It is this one-two punch that GK can deliver that forms the basis of their strength against Tyranids- we cannot rely on our MCs or multiwound models to defeat them, because they have incredibly effective ways to kill those. At the same time, we cannot rely on our smaller critters to defeat them, because virtually everything in their army is also quite proficient at cutting them down.


3. Fortitude
Unlike the above points, this boils down to a single, devastating ability: Grey Knight vehicles are all but immune to being stunned or shaken. Against other armies this is certainly strong- after all, the concept of suppression fire is an important one, and being resistant/immune to it is a very big deal under any circumstances. However, Tyranids are specifically reliant on it for several reasons; for one, we have a variety of weapons that take penalties to the damage table, such as Venom Cannons and Devourers, both of which fulfill useful suppression roles but have very little chance of actually killing a tank. For two, we lack the same abundance of anti-tank guns that many armies can field, so Tyranids are often forced to suppress some targets targets use assaults to wreck them in later turns. Suppression is key to the Tyranid strategy, because it allows us to mitigate the effects of enemy transports by negate two units (the transport + whatever's inside it) by shooting once, and if they choose to disembark, they are effectively doing our job for us.

GK, however, don't have that problem. 90% of the time, they simply shrug off the effects and keep doing what they were doing anyways, and even a Perils will probably do little but continue to keep them in place without lasting effect. Combined with the short range of our psychic defense, GK can generally just sort of walk away from us and shrug off any but the heaviest of AT fire we put out, which makes the necessary step of de-meching them extremely difficult.

4. Grenades and other runners-up.
There are tons of other little factors that, while not crippling, make fighting GK extremely difficult. Rad and Psychotroke Grenades, for example, can make a fight VERY difficult for Tyranids- the former can reduce MCs to T5 (which doubles the chances of most Force Weapons killing them), while the latter makes any kind of assault potentially very dangerous- hitting yourself, striking last, etc, are all potentially crippling effects, and neither type of grenade can be mitigated by assaulting the unit, as they work both offensively AND defensively. On top of that, every GK unit carries Psyk-Out Grenades, which shut down many of our big critters, and have extensive other anti-psyker tech that can cause havoc for some of our mainline units. Sanctuary further exacerbates our own lack of grenades of any kind and punishes large Termagant units at the same time. Dreadknights make a mockery of most our MCs, getting not only 2+ saves and an Invuln but S10, heavy weapons, and better-than-Wings as well. and for a drastically lower price.


All of this, of course, is talking about the army's components in isolation, which is hardly definitive proof of anything. (It's the reason that Grey Hunters are not simply extra-better Tacticals, for example.) Much as I would love to go into the details of how GK armies function and what some of their build options are- and how these relate to Tyranids- such a discussion is probably beyond the scope of even this increasingly-lengthy article, and I expect that it would be limited by my own knowledge of exactly how GK function on the tabletop at this point. I am sufficiently confident of what I do know, however, to say that the above advantages are all functional within the context of a normal Grey Knights army, being as they are largely core to the design of the army, so virtually any build one can conceive of will still be able to take full advantage of them.

This should also not be misconstrued as "Tyranids can't beat GK"; they can, it's just an unusually hard fight for them, more on par with Necrons-vs-anything than matchups of the various 5E codices against each other.

Comments (99)

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wow love the site and the articles here this should have never made it out on the blog. i really wouldnt be to over the top with the army man it gery knights. this codex yea is strong but anyone with a lot of time and energy could figure out to play the codex and win with bugs. i really hate to say this i think the artice is crap and should have been take off before long.
10 replies · active 728 weeks ago
Von Lettow-Vorbeck's avatar

Von Lettow-Vorbeck · 728 weeks ago

While I may disagree with what you say, I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

Seriously though, where's the dislike button gone? Is Kirby that afraid of the ~4 negative reviews that each article got, or is this just trying to ape facebook? (lulz strawman, I wonder who'll correct me ...)
Tratchenberg's avatar

Tratchenberg · 728 weeks ago

I'm gonna go with the button got removed because it was getting hit for pretty much every article but no one would comment as to why they disliked it (for most articles, there are some where people commented).

In particular, Kirby posted his attempt at making flames on his purifier halberds, it had at least 2 dislikes when I last saw it. How do you dislike a hobby article? There's nothing to disagree with from a hobby point of view, Kirby tried something and made a post about it.

To me it says there are people out there who don't like the site and are vindictive enough to take advantage of the dislike button hence its removal.
Von Lettow-Vorbeck's avatar

Von Lettow-Vorbeck · 728 weeks ago

So? Give people a feature and they'll abuse it. It was a testament to the quality of the site that virtually no articles would get many negative reviews at all - and a point of interest for when an article was viewed as bad.

I'd be more sympathetic if there had ever been a seriously vocal opposition going all youtube on his ass, but removing the button just makes him look cowardly, as opposed to open. At least to me. One way involves giving your critics the ability to demonstrate their numerical inferiority, the other makes it look like you're hiding from judgement.

Not that it really matters one way or the other in the end, but it's still something that's niggling at me currently. I'll be over it by tomorrow.
The chatbawks has always bugged me but that never stopped me from reading.
It'll come back at some point. Color me annoyed when articles go up and negative clicks follow without anyone reading or commenting.

Call it the psychologist in me but I could write a paper on what that could do to potential readers, etc.

If it doesn't come back exactly the same at least it will come back in some form.
Von Lettow-Vorbeck's avatar

Von Lettow-Vorbeck · 728 weeks ago

People saw something they didn't like. So they licked the dislike button. Is that not *exactly* what a dislike button's for?

Potential readership are going to be curious enough to read what's posted - I know I was despite the misgivings your site gave me at first (oh relax, it was just due to your ugly old layout design. Is mooch better now and I never clicked the dislike button over it).

That and I bet there are people who clicked 'like' without reading article. Are they not also a problem?

Kirby clearly doesn't believe in democracy and that's a fact. Sort of. (Playing devils advocate = fun, to use my leet equation skillz)
It's more the fact that people dislike articles and don't comment why. Disliking stuf is why, but at least give the author feed back. Is it the topic? The views of the author? The writing style? The abysmal use of language?
I demand some sort of stupidity test people must pass before they are allowed to comment.

At least have the balls and say what exactly is wrong with the article. And no, those 2 lines in broken English don't count.
It's an analysis of the advantages GK have over Tyranids with Puppy's opinion laced through it.

If you disagree with the opinion, try rebutting the analysis.
Dear guest....

Do you play nids? Do you play GK? Do you play BOTH?
Play both for true objectivity and perspective. All else is subjective speculation by definition.

Yes, the GK are very powerful, overall I think they are in line with most of the other 5th codices.
They have a lot of challenges themselves; especially in lower point games where unless very careful and disciplined with list building, a GK player can run out of points and have no mutually supporting units or tactical synergies.

However, while the sky is not falling, I play BOTH and have to agree with a lot of ap's points.

Nids are going to have to adapt...as we do to all codices, but I have to admit this one is just really rough.

It has a lot of points which really either nerf some of the nid advantages (as he listed) or mock our point costs (a dreadknight is how much? I get that its internally balanced with the GK codex....but....have you seen a carnifex's stat line and cost?).

So, in playing both nids and GK, I am *hoping* that I can take "a lot of time and energy to figure out " how to win with bugs.

But, I can tell you this, also as playing both GK and bugs....it will take about a tenth of the time and energy to figure out how to beat the bugs ....and THAT is the point....
One thing to note that may help is without a brotherhood banner, shadow in the warp will make it much more difficult to pull of force weapons and fortitude.
Good post Puppy and I agree with you. I can't see how Nids can adapt (if they can in the first place) to Grey Knights while not weakening themselves (even further) against other armies.
1 reply · active 728 weeks ago
thornyroses's avatar

thornyroses · 728 weeks ago

Agreed. I came in as new player starting off with Nids (still my only army ,sank a crapload of cash into it), so none of the backward arguments of the awesome sniperfex, stealershock etc. from previous editions applied. I still don't realy know what those guys are on about.
However, it became pretty apparent that Tyranids seemed 'broken' somewhat, meaning the main reliance on high T and multiwound for resilience...add to that the necessity of proper terrain because without cover you get smoked. It doesn't come as any surprise that newer codices just point out and exploit these weak design facets even more (it has been stated on this site numerous times there are 'tough matchups' for Nids..the list will grow i believe). Definately have to give GW two thumbs down for the effort, especially after the FAQ debacle. New threat to the galaxie, quite laughable. Time will tell if Nids are truly the poor orphans of 5E, but it seems the evidence is mounting, also that GW just doesn't give a crap.
Shadows of the warp messes with GK's. It's nice to have. Then again, Dreadnought reinforces aegis screws with 'nids pretty bad.
4 replies · active 728 weeks ago
Do Nids cast Psychic Powers upon the enemies that often? Other than Zoanthropes & Doom. Catalyst/Onslaught are not affected and they're the majority of powers that I see cast. SitW messes nicely with all the powers that GK try to cast, most especially including Fortitude on the vehicles. It makes the problem of suppression, while hampered by Fortitude, not quite as much of a "don't even bother" approach as Puppy implies.
£5 says since Fortitude gets FAQd to be immune to psychic defence.
paroxysm is pretty important on Gants but not massively so. SitW is a boon for Tyranids once they get in range but I think Puppy's article was just focusing on the GK advantages over Tyranids rather than a holistic look.
Paroxysm is the most important one that Aegis affects, but really Aegis isn't a big deal for 'Nids.

SitW doesn't really affect their vehicles much because of its short range. By the time you're within 12" of them, you have already either won or lost the battle.
Leszek Cyfer's avatar

Leszek Cyfer · 728 weeks ago

A lot of what you've said applies to greenskins.
Orks have got purified to death too :(

And now for a change please give us some strategies that Tyranids and Orks can use to effectively stop GK from using their strong points.
From my point of view I'd have to outshoot them which is unlikely :/
1 reply · active 728 weeks ago
Ork Shoota Boyz will outshoot GKs point for point, and since GKs have to come within 24" to shoot at you, the Orks are within "advance and shoot them back" range (though the GKs do have the advantage of having to get range only to the front models to shoot at the Ork unit while the Orks lose firepower if their back lines can't advance within 18"). Lots of rokkits will also shoot down GKs pretty effectively.

GK purifiers will rape Orks within charge range (12"), but the usual Ork problem of "enemies can outrange us and keep moving to deny us shots for some turns" won't exist vs GKs since the GKs will generally have a lot of their firepower limited to 24" also. So they do face issues, but actually gain in some other areas. Also, bullets take down GKs as easily as other MEQs, and they are more expensive. And force weapons vs Orks? Heh. All in all, unless you're facing Crowe and Purifier spam, you should be able to concentrate fire on the units with Cleansing Flame, and then shoot and advance upon the rest. Having 1 FW attack won't help GKs at all when they're assaulted by squads of 12+ Orks.

Nids, same idea. I can see Devourer Gaunts becoming more popular... advance into range, stay in cover, trade shots. At 10 points a model with 4+ cover save, vs 20+ with a 3+ armor save, and both models having the same firepower (short of heavy weapons), I think the "death of the gaunt swarms" is exaggerated. Again, Hormagaunts are, like Ork Boyz, going to swamp GK units without Cleansing Flame... dump shots into the Purifiers, rush hordes at the other units. Unlike other SMs, GK don't hide inside their boxes as well since their firepower is more spread out over the entire squad, thus there may be more models on the field to shoot at.
I disagree a lot with this article.

I think when you actually start seeing Grey Knights on the table, the advantages Tyranids have will become apparent.

Tyranids really don't care about fortitude that much, as the shooting from GK vehicles really don't threaten Tyranid MCs like other codexes. A Psyrilfleman still gives us armor saves, Psycannons only cut through our armor on a rend, etc. So just like versus any other army, we take advantage of cover, and keep Tervigons out of hood range to FNP critical units, which the Grey Knights have few answers too at range.

Afraid of their awesome grenades, charge them with something unimportant. Throw a massive "free" gaunt squad in there, and hold them up for two turns, then charge them. Their grenade bonus will be negated.

I don't even sweat force weapons that much. Yes, they are a threat, but, because of their elite nature it is extremely easy to tell where GK players would apply their force. Gaunts, Gargoyles, etc. can provide good screens to unfavorable assaults, and stacking show coverage will make getting the force weapon bonus difficult. On top of that, if there is no character in the unit, you ain't havinging hammerhand and force weapons, which means you only wound an MC on a 6. Can they pull it off? No doubt, but picking and choosing assaults is the advantage we have because we are generally fielding more models on the table.

Also, the things that work well on any other MEQ army, also works surprisingly well on them because of their low numbers. Genestealers still chomp through them, especially with poison. Only Purifiers are scary to the Genestealer.

I think their will be certain GK builds that will offer a lot of Tyranid builds a bad match up. But I think when you exam both armies in the context of what a good tournament GK build will look like versus what a good tournament Tyranid build will look like, and I am not prepared to write them off.
4 replies · active 682 weeks ago
Shooting from vehicles may not seem deadly but a bunch of S6 shots from Psybacks which you can't suppress is pretty annoying. Considering as well that many Tyranid armies devote a lot of points into suppressing vehicles this becomes inefficient. And psyfledreads don't care about MCs. Hello Warriors/Raveners/Shrikes and if you have none of those, Hive Guard. If you have none of those then yes, the pysfledreads aren't that scary compared to say Devs/LF w/missile launchers due to no AP3 but are still going to put out a reliable 3 wounds on an MC any given turn.

Psycannons dont need to cut through armor. When just the basic count of your psycannons generates enough wounds to reliably drop a over one MC, their firepower is pretty strong against you. Correct with FNP in terms of firepower (i.e. on Hive Guard and Tervigons) but it is of less use on Gants in combat due to power weapons. This makes holding up units in combat more difficult but if done, a very viable option as you suggested.

Correct re force weapons as I discussed below.

Genestealers are hampered by servo-skulls but are a good unit in terms of efficiency. I heard Archnomad likes them :p .

I don't think Puppy is writing them off (I hope not at least!) but rather looking at the advantages GK have over Tyranids. It's not 'omgwecan'twin' but I do think it is a difficult battle more often than not for Tyranids and I think this was the point Puppy was trying to get across. There are advantages of for Tyranids (see my response below) but in the end I think we both believe the GK advantages outweigh the Tyranid advantages because the GK play to their strengths (shooting) and force the Tyranids to rely almost exclusively on combat and actual tank killing rather than suppression backed up by combat.
GK vehicle shooting isn't deadly, but as Kirby notes, it will stack wounds onto your units as you fail saves. More importantly, it is yet another source of torrent fire for them.

Fortitude is extremely important; I'm not sure why you think 'Nids don't care about it.

You can only "negate" the grenades that way if you successfully hold them up for two turns, which is not likely. You can't use Catalyst to mitigate casualties (NFW cut through it) and No Retreat + the effects of the grenades are likely to mince you pretty badly.

You seem to have missed the part where I explained that their high-ROF firepower stands a good chance of cutting down our screening units; assuming that you will have extensive Gaunt/Gargoyle screens alive when you reach them strikes me as optimistic at best.

(I am aware that they cannot have Hammerhand and Force Weapons active at the same time without an IC; I'm not sure where you thought I said that they could.)

Genestealers are not a fan of Storm Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Psycannons, etc; it's rather unlikely they will survive the two turns of shooting to get to the GK, and even if they do they still need to get through NF Halberds, Sanctuary, etc, in order to actually do anything.
well puppy, catalist cannot be used to mitigate wounds in combat because of FW but can be used to mitigate No retreat! wounds. No retrat wounds allow armour and Catalyst lasts until the beggining of the next Tyranid turn, so it can be applied in 2 combat rounds
How many GK games have you played? Well, while I have NOT played that man, I can say fortitude is one of the most amazing abilities I have ever seen in this game.

I also play nids, and have to say that suppression is VERY important to nids. The psyfledreds are deadly to MC's for the exact same reason they are deadly to Ctan; they force saves. Everyone knows plasma and melta's are deadly to nids...but hopefully, they have a stack of wounds left by the time those weapons get in range. This does not work with enough S7/S6 shots coming down field.

I have run a few test games against nids with my GK, and now, granted, since I play nids, I rarely lose against them (know they army) but it was a game against a very good player, and it was such a slaughter we called it at 3....and I was rooting for the nid player!!!!

Also, those comments about "more models on the table' and genstealers leave out one point that a lot of folks miss; the best weapon in the GK codex is not the psycannon...its the quantity of stormbolters. These are amazing, and they are everywhere.

Its a torrent of accurate (relatively) dangerous shots at 24" from marines that can move. This is like facing an entire army of necron immortals....for a lot less cost.

However, I DO AGREE that I am not ready to "write them off"....but, lets just say it went from "work" to "really fraken hard work" in dealing with other 5th codices.
mathhammer's avatar

mathhammer · 728 weeks ago

been running tyranids for a long time. 14+ years.
Got to say the Grey Knight was the final straw for me putting the Tyranids into the display case.

btw: You forgot servo skulls verses genestealers.

Their ability to kill my multi wound creatures and the the other factors mentioned in the article just highlights the weakness in the tyranid codex. Recently I had to fight an ork army with a custom force field generator. It's a sinking feeling when you realize the trucks are immune to basic gaunts and the flames in the Ar14 truck are removing entire squads.

Tyranids are a hobby army these days, not a tournament army.
Thatguyoverthere's avatar

Thatguyoverthere · 728 weeks ago

1) SitW will save you a lot of the time (I was blocking Mephiston all weekend at the Colonial GT with it, even wounding him once). Gaunts/Genestealers of all varieties are hardly effected by all of this because they only had one wound to begin with and not much of a save. Loss of FNP to power weapons hurts though.

I'm not sure how much of the other stuff competitive lists will bring... Brotherhood Champs seem to be rated as underwhelming.

2) All of those weapons are AP4 though. That means we get a save unless they rend. Or, if that fails, Tyranids excel at cover saves. I generate my own cover by layering my units. I played 6 shrikes at the GT this weekend and they almost always changed the game for me. Never once were they blown away by ID weapons (because those were gunning for my Trygons/Tervigons/Zoanthropes). We also get to keep FNP unless it rends.
Thatguyoverthere's avatar

Thatguyoverthere · 728 weeks ago

3) Perils will prevent it once you're close but it is frustrating to see them shake off the glances like that. Looks like we're just going to have to go for more pens right? Hive guard are still good. Zoanthropes are still good. The HVC, which I still haven't put in my list, doesn't work as well against them. At the very least, you're making them at least test for it. Potentially they'll fail, potentially they'll perils but you're making them roll dice.

4) Do they all come standard with those grenades? I thought it was limited to only certain choices or you had to pay for the upgrades. The dreadknight is kind of an insult. Why do they get the best monstrous creature in the game? My Trygons would love to be 130 points with a 2+/5++ save and the ability to be jump infantry.
2 replies · active 728 weeks ago
Well (almost) every codex need a "Vendetta". New plastic kit that are insanely priced in points to sell more kits.
In that case the Trygon should have been 115.
Thatguyoverthere's avatar

Thatguyoverthere · 728 weeks ago

I really want to get a game in with my Tyranids against GK just to prove my suspicions that this is just a passing thing. We'll fight a few squads of guys and their rhinos in most games. The special characters aren't that impressive and, at the end of the day, most people I know are taking min squads of 5 guys. 30 space marines, 6 vehicles and maybe some dreads or something. I was already building my list to counter lists like that, so it's no different than any other marine list. I realize that their troops can ID monstrous creatures but I've had BA troops come in and kill trygons on the charge too. The difference here is that just one wound can do it. We're faster than they are and more numerous. Raise the gaunt shields and plow forward into the midst of them and I think we'll all see how powerless they really are to fight dedicated assault units in close combat. 5 power weapon attacks isn't anything to be proud of from a squad of 5 space marines.
4 replies · active 728 weeks ago
The thing is, we aren't faster; against other armies, Tyranids can just move-and-shoot, which forces them into making the choice of either getting away from us (and not killing us) or trying to gun down units (and staying where they are). GK don't have to make this decision, they can fire almost everything on the move, albeit at somewhat reduced effectiveness.

Gaunt shields are unlikely to hold against the weight of fire they can put out; 30+ Storm Bolters, 12+ HB/PsyCan, etc. That is a LOT of firepower to be facing.
Thatguyoverthere's avatar

Thatguyoverthere · 728 weeks ago

Who shoots gaunts?

If they play like IG, then yes we're screwed. Space marines who play like IG screw us too. However, GK played as space marines shouldn't be too hard.

What do I mean by "play like IG?" Tons of Chimeras and razorbacks. What do I mean by "play like space marines?" Storm ravens, jump squads and dreadnought/dreadknight.
To be fair, you're unlikely to see many SR/Interceptor/DK lists.
GK shoots Gaunts, because they're the only units that are a threat to their normal squads. MCs can't kill enough of them before Hammers (or other NFW) finish them off. Warriors are super-vulnerable to Psyfledreads, as are Hive Guard (and the latter to Psycannons, too.) The only unit that really scares them is Termagants en masse backed by a Tervigon- which is a common 'Nid strategy. So they take down the Gaunts, which exposes the MCs to fire and charges, and they pretty much have the game.
Thatguyoverthere's avatar

Thatguyoverthere · 728 weeks ago

The thing that brings me despair is that our monstrous creatures are T7. This weekend I got tabled by an IG player in 5 turns because everything could wound me on a 4+ or better from across the table while I could only do significant damage 24" away from him. Str 9 lascannon shots are way better than anything my 210 point Trygons can do. For 130 points you get a vendetta which has 3 str 9 attacks, rerolling to hit always on a 3+, which ignores armor saves. It can attack you from across the table. Sure I get double that, but it's only str 7 and my weapon skill 5 doesn't always hit on 3s (especially when I'm attacking vehicles). That is what's bringing me some heartache with my Tyranids right now.
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Thatguyoverthere · 728 weeks ago

5 devastators will rock an MC's world from across the table. The fact that str 8 wounds us on 2's means that we might as well be T2 (minus the whole instant death thing) to missiles. When IG can take a vehicle that has 4 rapid firing plasma guns shooting off the back, 3 shots that wound us on 4+'s, and then a heavy flamer mounted on it is incredible. If we get within 12" of that, we'll probably die to plasma before we even assault. SW armies that play like IG (read Stelek's list and others like it), Dark Eldar who wound us like we're T4, and BA armies that play like IG (Baals to the Waals lists) don't care about T6. That was our one defense and every army has a way to get around it.

GK? Yes please, let me play them. I get my armor saves against them and they take less infantry models that I do. They're powers get canceled by shadow in the warp a lot of the time and they're special characters are push overs in close combat. I would play them over max razorbacks/chimeras from other armies any day.
1 reply · active 728 weeks ago
Every GK has a powerweapon, you get what saves against them? Oh, wait, swarmlord, who is more than dragio, has a 4+ invul....

You are correct on one thing; some of their special characters are pushovers in close combat. Those are the ones no one will ever take.
The good ones however, are very good.

Also, they WILL have razorbacks...except, they will be unshakable S6 razorbacks....for 50points.
The only thing this article has told me is that the Tyranid meta will change into some Warriors w/ BS/W. Those things mow down everything GK has in CC.
3 replies · active 728 weeks ago
Curse you HERO! i was going to say just that.
The sky isn't falling for bugs. Sure the current interweb lists may have problems vs. Grey Knights. if so, change your lists. There are other units besides Tervigons in the codex. Shadow in the Warp will bother those Hammerhand dice roles. Lash whips negate those +2 init. halberds and gernades.
Numbers will pull down those 5 man strike squads. Poison attacks will topple the Dreadknight.
Try a different build if Grey Knights are rampaging through your bug army.
This is the point he was making. You could run a list that would be good against GK, like a warrior heavy list (except riflemen dreads with psybolts == dead warriors, so not so sure). But then you're not running a optimal list against other armies that you'll see at a tourney, which defeats the point.
I actually use Bonesword Warriors in place of Trygons and other MCs already; however , the ubiquitous Psyfleman will cut them to shreds, as will initiative trick with NFWs. Also, remember how Lash Whips interact with other modifiers- a Halberd under the Whip still strikes at I3, which is before you if you're chargging into cover.
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Thatguyoverthere · 728 weeks ago

That or shrikes with lashwhip/bonesword, scything talons, toxin sacs.

Or hormagaunts. They're intiative 6 on the charge with adrenal glands and with toxin sacs they get a whole bunch of rerolls. 80 points nets you 30 attacks at intiative 6 with poison.
6 replies · active 728 weeks ago
24 attacks, Hormagaunts with both upgrades are 10 points, which is quite pricey for a T3 gaunt.
The problem with going to a Warrior/Shrike meta will the GW Psycannons/Autocannons with Psy-bolts, that can pour a lot of S8 shots into you.
I'm sure GK will be fine with you spending 80pts on ten T3 models that can't charge into cover effectively and can't hurt a Dreadknight/Dreadnought.
Dreadnought no, but the drradknight will suffer from the poison attacks
He still has a 2+ save and comes with a gatling gun, a super-flamer, or a large blast. He's gonna make your life super-unpleasant.
I don't think we will actually see that many dknights, unless someone knows they are not going to be fighting IG. It has a nice save, but is only T6 4W. Vendettas will exterminate them.
The DK's gun options are pretty shitty actually. They're not fantastic in and of themselves, but with their ridiculous costs added in... bad, just bad.
To add some further thought of mine why I think it's kind of unsolvable equation for Nids:

-Warriors with Lashwips are potent against them in CC, so almost mandatory.
-Hive Guard are a must, keep in mind we want an allcomers list.

What do these 2 have in common? Not a 3+ save. Some people have mentioned in this thread that GK's don't worry them so much because you can take your 3+ saves, but on what exactly? The thing is that those things are often 6W MC's or the overpriced Tyrant + Guards. GK's don't realy care about that.

But to get back at the Hive Guard and Warriors: These are so easy to torrent down for GK's, it's almost a joke: Psyfleman, Pyscannons and Psybacks pump out so many high Strenght fire that you'll lose the Hive Guard pretty much turn 1 (turn 2 at best) and the Warriors when the GK's see fit to deal with them.

The rest of the Nid list just isn't all that dangerous to GK's I'm afraid. Yes, you'll stop some instakills with Shadow, but does this matter? I mean; a 50% chance of not losing your 6W MC still means a 50% chance to lose it... And when the GK's have so many attempts overall to do it it ain't looking pretty.

Thing what worries me as a main-GK player would be the Gaunts. When you worry the most about Gaunts in a Nid list, then you know Nids got it bad...

God help the Nid players when the GK player decided to bring a few Incinerators too...

Thing is: Can you build an allcomers Tyranid list? That's the question people shouldn't forget about. It's nice when you can build a list which does okay against GK's, but that's kinda useless when it still folds against other armies. (unless you play in a local club where people only play GK's ofc. METAMETAMETA)
mathhammer's avatar

mathhammer · 728 weeks ago

1. Sanctuary or str 8 dreadnought fire
2. storm bolter fire or cleansing flame
3. warpquake from inside the vehicle
4. Dreadknights mehh

The balance here is the tyranids have a couple of tricks, usually most armies can stop one of them. A standard Gk knight stops all of them. Like I said above Tyranids were barely a tournament army before GK and after there clearly not a tournament army.

Around the game shop? go for it, any army is just as good as any other one.
I played a game against the new GKs and tabled him. Granted the list was 6 squads of 10 strikes with 2 psycannons each and a grand master giving three of them counter-attack, but that is 60 marines with halberds and heavy weapons. Look at it this way, against most of our assault units, they get like 4 attacks when charged, hit on 4+, wound on 4+ and so we take one wound, and maybe they get force weapon to go off. I think we'll have to go more hybrid in out lists and hope we can still handle mech. Genestealers still die in droves to storm bolters and attacking last hurts a lot for them. BS/LW shrikes will be golden.
2 replies · active 728 weeks ago
The gray knight list, no offense, just from what you say, seems terrible, 60 bodies or no. A basic knight should never rock pretty much any special weapons, except hammers on the Sargent (and that can be ignored depending on how you play. 25pts for a 1A, I6 marine isn't a good idea- to put it in perspective, the purifiers are 26pts including a halberd, and bring far more killings to the table thanks to 2A and their purification ability- the guy was paying a 50 pt overhead per unit on mid-field snooty units. Did he have any vehicles to asorb charges/congest charging lanes? I think the worry about ID is s bit much, especially due to shadow in the warp, but seriously- he paid a 300pt overhead to make mediocre cc troops slightly less mediocre.

I would actually say that shrikes would have a bad time against GK because of the easy acess they get to S5 shooting that goes right through their 5+ armor, forcing them to always hug cover- not to mention the dakkanaughts that ID them. Also, the powers like sanctuary hamstring cc units quite a bit. Remember, sanctuary effects the gray knight's units within 12, not yours, so that means Cortez sitting in a rhino/chimera in the back field can cover a whole lot of real estate in difficult and dangerous terrain.
As both a NID and GK player, I would sincerely love to hear more about this.

Was the GK player experienced in the game? Were they experienced in playing against nids?

Again, I being a nid player, I do rather well playing against them....some armies more than other.
But I can say that with GK...its just plain easy...or at least my gk lists.

I think a lot of GK players are over underestimating the value of heavy bolters and psydreds...Sure, 24" is great for walking up and shooting...but for long range weapons give the ability to project force to various parts of the board to give localized fire support - this is critical.
Rotating Panda's avatar

Rotating Panda · 728 weeks ago

Lots of people are pointing to BS/LW warriors but if -anything- in the GK list assaults them, they warriors are going at I1 against force weapons which still isn't a good combination. Sure, SitW mitigates it but we get no EW, no ++ and thanks to the FAQ, units with halberds are still going before us.

Now, if they let us play our army the fluffy way and field a billion, billion units overrunning the opposing armies planet, we'd have the best codex ever!
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Rotating Panda · 728 weeks ago

Holy crap, I need to withdraw my statement. I have always though Tyranid Warriors were psykers but apparently, they are not. My bad!
Oh come on, really?`Really? GK beat Nids? Are you fucking kidding me?! DarkEldar with ridiculous amounts of poisoned and darklance weaponry might be considered a Nid-Hardcounter, (and I play Eldar & DarkEldar almost exclusively), but GreyKnights? Seriously, GreyKnights?

Theres 2 things GreyKnights do. 1) henchmen fuck you all and they're one of the most powerfull lists out there
2) GreyKnights. And suddenly the dex is really balanced and fun.
I agree with most of the article. It is going to make it very hard for Tyranids to compete against Knights, especially Purifiers. Perhaps we will see more Warriors/Shrikes/Genestealers getting into the fray? Either way I look forward to the challenge.
If GK do anything it's really magnify and throw a glaring spotlight on the inherent problems in the Tyranid Codex.

Overcosted units
Almost complete lack of Frag Grenades
No access to Eternal Warrior
Almost complete lack of Invulnerable Saves
An FAQ that took an already difficult to use Codex, and nerfed it even more (for really no good reason).

No other (current 5 edition) army has all of these problems. Every army has it's strengths and weaknesses. The key to beating said armies is to avoid/nullify their strengths while taking advantage of their weaknesses. For GK, they automatically do that against Tyranids with everything they have. Every weakness in our book becomes absolutely debilitating.
2 replies · active 728 weeks ago
Yes. It also reduces the strength of many Tyranid armies (suppression) and forces them to rely upon assault.

In the end GK are expensive Marines but do have some very good tools in which to deal with Tyranids which often exacerbates the issues already identified in the codex.
Sure, there is a good reason.

Remember in school that kid who got picked last at kickball and the jocks that mocked him?

Guess which one is Cruddace, and which one is ward?
I'm very surprised by this article. I had not expected this position from Pup.

Remember: people said that DE would be the nail in the Nids' coffin...
1 reply · active 728 weeks ago
"They" say a lot of things; I tend not to pay attention to them.

Tyranids have a lot of strong counters to DE- open-topped vehicles and T3/5+ troops mean they are just as vulnerable to most of our guns as we are to theirs. GK do not suffer from this two-way imbalance; they can shrug off most of our fire while theirs us devastating to us.
This article really touches on my thoughts as to why I dislike the Grey Knights codex. Aside from every marine player out there who "always loved Grey Knights and totally not buying $500 of them just because they are awesome now", and that is about 66% of them, Grey Knights are too good. This is not to say that they are great against every army; this is not the case. What they do however is make certain armies completely useless against them. Any melee-based army that considered themselves "elite" before this codex are now pointless to run; grey knights run maybe 10% fewer men but win every time. Any foot-based army that relied on staggering amount of wounds(either in bodies or multi-wound) are now pointless, as GK can remove either of them, no problem. A few things GK's can't do are the following: Spam AP3/2 weaponry. Throw a heaping pile of melee attacks. Immediately eliminate AV14. Fight a long-range battle. Other than that, though, they can do everything else, and better than you.
Grey Knights are great at a great many things. They put the screws to almost every codex out there. I can tell you with absolute certainty that there are only two kinds of players out there that aren't annoyed by them: players that are either so good or so nonchallant that they don't mind any new codex no matter what it contains, and people who play Grey Knights. Grey Knights players will tell you that they don't mind playing against Grey Knights with their other armies. That's great, but they know that they can pull the same crap with their own Grey Knights.
In my opinon, Grey Knights aren't paying an opportunity cost, so to speak, to be able to take on so many targets. They are paying for the equipment, sure, but they need to have some sort of tax tacked-on to penalize them for being bale to run the same unit in almost every situation. Otherwise, they have an unfair advantage over other armies that need to diversify their units more, and incur more cost for taking more squad leaders, manditory upgrades, etc. GK's players will tell you they are paying plenty, but that doesn't change their win record, or the fact that when they are fighting an oppoonent, they are fighting an army that is tooling their play stlye to fight them, because if they don't they will lose. The fact remains that for all your fancy gear, at base you are getting a huge points discount for your basic guys that carries over into huge changes later on. 20pts. for a Grey Knight is this number than makes all later point costs drastically lower than they seem.
What this codex really makes me worry about is the future of codexes. This is the only codex out there that I have every disliked for reasons that it was too good. We all know that when a book comes out that changes the way the game is played, the next armies tthat come out will be built to adjust to that raised bar. I worry that the codexes that come out from this point on will also be so powerful, so mighty that armies that came out just prior to GK's will be left in the dust, only two years after having been printed. OUr models can only get so powerful before they become ridiculus. Just as currency eventually devalues itself over time, so too do models. Every edition of 40k that comes out makes its models bigger and better, and there will come a point that models all become multi-wound, power weapon-wielding, invulnerable models. I worry that this will be the book that we look back on and say started the system of 40k where Necrons are unhappy for only getting 5 Destroyer attacks apiece instead of 6.
Yes, this sounds like whining, and the world's most excellent case of "the sky is falling the universe is over and why can't my models be as good as theirs waaa!", but really, did you look at Grey Knights, ever, and say to yourself "an army that exists on the very principle of doing what you do, only better? that seems like a great idea." Because no matter what you say, that's what they are. The Marines in Black, the best of the best of the best, and they are made to win, not to play. Matt Ward is a genius.
Ok, seriously, did I just stumble onto Warseer instead of 3++?

Sweet lord guys, the sky isn't falling!
I think this is a good article. It may have the over-arching “my poor Tyranids” concept but it looks at it without the rose-tinted glasses and takes it down to the basics as to why and how GK are effective against Tyranids. I don’t think Puppy is implying it is a no-win situation. Tyranids are still a good book but this is the 2nd book in a row with the shooting ability that just deals with MC/multi-wound/infantry based armies very well. Tyranids have no options outside of this which is why it hurts. Let’s look at Puppy’s key points and imagine this as an Army Comparison post.

1)Force Weapons – I don’t think this is as big as it has been made out to be. In my several playtests with GK against Nids this has come up once on a Tervigon with 2W remaining but the simple fact of the matter is, the firepower is more likely to be dropping wounds from the MCs regardless and the fact that the whole army has power weapons and is therefore capable of reliably putting 1-2 wounds on an MC in combat (or more with Hammerhand) is more painful. Against the majority of targets that Force Weapons are useful you’ll also be in Shadow range and an 15% chance of your Justicar exploding sucks. Obviously this is a different scenario with ICs/high Ld squads/Brotherhood banner but Shadow will really play around with Grey Knight psychic powers. That being said I think the biggest issue Tyranids face in this regard is S8 psyfledreads. Having a reliable 8-12 S8 shots which aren’t too flash against MCs to begin with yet have perfect targets in Warriors/Raveners and are a staple in many GK lists? That hurts more so than missile launchers as they have multiple good targets (MCs + T4 multi-wound models).

2)This is I think the kicker for GK against Tyranids. Their bog standard firepower (S4/5 stormbolters, S7 rending psycannons) just deals with Tyranids very well. This is the exact same for Dark Eldar (darklight and poisoned) but then the Tyranid firepower works very well against the Dark Eldar as well. In the end, without even factoring in potential Tyranid armies, most GK armies are well-equipped to deal with them.

3)Another kicker. Most of you have read a lot on how Tyranids rely on suppression fire to ensure their MCs can cross the field of fire. Fortitude makes suppression really difficult and whether or not Shadow works on this ability, the backfield units are going to keep pounding away unless you have something like a Trygon Prime.

4)Grenades are just awesome fun but as Puppy mentioned can really hurt Tyranids who rely on their high toughness and good save to help them. I don’t think lowering the Toughness value has any effect in terms of instant death but suddenly basic squads are doing more power weapon wounds (as discussed above).

I think 2 and 3 are where GK gain the clear edge against Tyranids tbh. I don’t think the match-up is as bad as Necrons vs. Anyone however but I do think it is a much tougher battle than one could expect when using a 5th edition army operating under the premise of balance. That being said I think we need to look at the other side of the coin in how Tyranids are effective against GK as well.
1)They are still marines. This has been said many times but all those Termagants (spawn later rather than earlier in these situations) will drag some Marines down and Tyranids have never really been lacking in anti-infantry firepower. This may mean a slight move away from T-Fex/HG/Tervigon lists to ensure there is more anti-infantry in your lists whilst maintaining viable anti-tank but the GK will fall like your standard 3+ save model.

2)They hate combat. Even with power weapons and a bunch of grenades, GK don’t want to get into combat. We’ve said this before and against Tyranids it’s the same. Force Weapons + things like Hammerhand/Rad Nades/Might/etc are all potent combinations against the big gribblies of the Tyranid army but the Tyranid army is often better in combat. As said above, supported Termagants are hyper price efficient against GK and anything with lash whips is going to really help. Regardless, GK are at their best (particularly against Tyranids) when they are shooting. Although they are more capable against multi-wound models than many armies in combat, they are more expensive so should have this sort of bonus.

3)Shadow in the Warp. Against most armies SitW is pretty blah but it’s really going to help against GK. Although it’s range is pretty pitiful once the Tyranid army gets into assault range many of the GK powers now have to cast through something which is more likely to cause Perils (~15% iirc). On units with different Ld (i.e. Strike squads) this is very risky and even without the increased Perils chance, you’re still stopping most powers at a ~50% rate. Spells like Sanctuary hurt but are harder to get off just like Hammerhand, Force Weapons and many of the other combat abilities of the Librarian. Considering the extensive use of Psychic Powers by the Grey Knights, Shadow in the Warp is really only second to Runes of Warding due to the increased chance of Perils.

4) I'll add this one in as mahu mentioned it above but Catalyst will help a lot of of units survive from shooting. GK shooting is all about weight of fire and there is a lot of it but FNP can really help certain MCs and Hive Guard survive all those wounds they have to make, just like against poisoned weaponry in Dark Eldar. Passive GK psychic defenses also don't stop this so unless they have brought a Libby it will get off quite reliably and can really improve the survivability of important units at range.

If we take out Puppy’s opinion on how he feels in regards to the match-up this article gives a very good look at how GK can deal with Tyranids. If we add in how Tyranids can deal with GK we have an excellent army comparison and we can see Tyranids have it a little worse off than against other armies. Again, if we compare them to dark Eldar their firepower is perfect against them whilst the Dark Eldar firepower is the same in reverse. Whilst Tyranids have advantages against GK these advantages aren't as significant as the GK advantages over them and is based upon a firepower discrepancy. Remember many Tyranid lists are based upon firepower to suppress armies and having that effectively taken away against an army which has excellent firepower against you is goingt o lead to an uphill struggle.
12 replies · active 728 weeks ago
Thanks for posting this.

Somthing to keep in mind ref suppression of vehicles: while they may be harder to supress, you're also generally going to be seeing less of them than in a standard Marine army. On top of that, in most cases this is going to be AV 11/AV 12 vehicles, which are targets Hive Guard can at least glance/pen reliably.

I mean really, which is worse for a Nid army: a GK Psybacks/3 psyflemen army, or a BA razors/3 baal/3 pred army?
Personally, the GK army. The 6 Pred army gives Nids fit in terms of amount of tanks to deal with but once you open the tanks the models are a lot less scary. The GK list moves forward and drops their guys and provide both infantry and tank targets to deal with. They have similar types of firepower in terms of S6/7 rending but the GK have better anti-infantry and ability to deal with nids once they get in combat. + their S8+ is much more reliable than the 6 Pred S8+ in dealing with warriors/ravs/etc. GK have much more effective anti-infantry though and i think you'll find this is the huge different maker. The MSU BA stlyed lists will get swamped by Termgants pretty easily when they have FNP, all re-rolls, Paroxysm and MC support but the GKs are much more capable of stopping those sort of tactics and I think that is where GK win out over Tyranids.

Again, not an auto-win but certainly more of an uphill battle than against other bad matchups for Tyranids I believe.
mathhammer's avatar

mathhammer · 728 weeks ago

and don't forget the 24" hood any decent Gk army has that also gives all their tanks a 5+ cover save.

The other thing is if you look at , the options people have suggested they come out of the troops slots. just how many warriors, genestealer , termagaunts, hormagaunts can you get out of 6 spots. You can move the warriors to the fast attack slot (a choice i like a lot) but I feel to handle armor in the current MSU era Tyranids need to shift towards a harpy style list with no heavy support choices.
"and don't forget the 24" hood any decent Gk army has that also gives all their tanks a 5+ cover save."

Not all GK list will have, or even need, a libby. They sure are nice, but they are also a bit of a pain to fit in a list due to their termy armour.

Also, unless I'm missing something, the tanks won't be getting a 5+ cover. They will be getting a 3+ cover, or none at all.
mathhammer's avatar

mathhammer · 728 weeks ago

stealth + smoke == 3+ cover
stealth + 6+ == 5+ cover.

If the the tank doesn't have a cover save than the power grants a 6+

I think the Libby is fairly big in GK list. I wish he wasn't in terminator armor, but so it is.
"If the unit is not in cover it benefits from a 6+ cover save INSTEAD."

So 3+ or 6+, but not 5+.

Ok, say you use him: where are you going to put him?
mathhammer's avatar

mathhammer · 728 weeks ago

The power has 2 sentences.
The first gives units within 6" the stealth USR.
The second sentenece says if your not in cover then you benefits from a 6+ cover save.

thus you get take your 6+ cover save and turn it into 5+ with stealth.
Just a variation off the SW and BA power.

Where do I put him, that is a good question, so far I have 3 answers.
1. In the middle stormraven with the terminators. (A Draigo list for a friend)
2. Buying a INQ chimera and tossing him in there.
3. In an experimental list he is the fat boy chasing the rhino(ice cream truck)
I disagree with you interpretation of the Shrouding. It's pretty clear to me that a unit not in cover just gains a 6+ cover, but not stealth. I mean, it would be just flat out better than Shield of Sanguinius otherwise.

As far as rides for the Libby go, a SR is a pretty big target if it also has pallies in there, plus you're more than likely not going to be sticking around with your main line if you got it to deliver the unit to the enemy's frontline. The inqui Chimera is nice till you realise it's the only vehicle without Fortitude in your list, which paints a great big bullseye on it, and running behind Rhinos, well, that has its own set of obvious problems.
mathhammer's avatar

mathhammer · 728 weeks ago

well then we shall disagree, please review the rule on page 25. I think you will find it always grants stealth, and the only conditional is the granting of the 6+ cover save (which can then be modified).

The Chimera has extra armor and runs behinds the rhinos with a 3+ cover save. (stealth + a 4+ cover save). The Storm raven list is a lot of storm ravens and is a fast moving army. The Chimera is in a Rhino style army that moves to midfield and camps for a while.

(I had 3 different methods for 3 different list)
I reread it, still seems pretty clear to me that if a unit is not in cover, it gets a 6+ cover instead of Stealth. I guess we'll have to wait for the official FAQ.

I guess the way you want to run the Chim makes sense, but it's still a lot of effort put into just giving the Libby a ride. Ergo, I think our dear warplord will still not be as ubiquitous in GK lists as you make him out to be, especially if my interpretation of Shrouding proves to be the correct one.
Quote: If the unit is not in cover, it benefits from a 6+ cover save instead.

The important word here is "instead".
Thing is, the BA army, while being weaker in CC, is also considerably faster than the GK, so is usually able to run circles around the nids on you take care of the HG. While GK on foot offer more AP firepower, they are now vulnerable to assault. If its Purifiers, fine, but as you often say yourself, GKSS arent "too flash" in CC, especially against hordes, and they usually form the mainstay of your non-Coteaz, non-lolCrowe lists.

Will more gaunts die? Maybe, maybe not. After all, if you're shooting gaunts, you're not using your psycannons on the bigger targets, and Baal preds offer quite a bit of dakka to whitle hordes in BA lists, so I'm not sure how much of an increased effect all those storm bolters actually have in comparison.
I'm just curious to see a Daemons vs GK post, just to get a baseline on "Codex raped by GK" ;)

I see a lot of "What strengths GK has against Nids". Why so little about "what weaknesses GKs have that Nids can exploit".

Offhand, I consider several GK weaknesses:
1: Lack of AP1 without henchmen, and henchmen usually are in Chimeras (thus shakeable).
2: Lack of Invuln save (with a lot of units in the Nid army ignoring saves)
3: Expensive models with 3+ save (and most everything that Nids have, that doesn't ignore armor, usually puts out a lot of wounds)
4: Lack of AP1/2 to counter FNP... Storm Bolters rape Gaunts overall, but put a 20-mass of Hormagaunts with FNP charging, using their cover abilities, and the GK weapons all of a sudden do a lot less to slow down the horde. And they can't deal with the horde in CC unless they're Purifier spam. Which can deal with Hormagaunts but not very well with Devourer-Gaunts setting up shop 13-17" away and starting a trade in expended munitions.

Nids may have to spend a few more points in dangerous Troop units (Hormagaunts, Devourer Gaunts, Genestealers) rather than treating them as throw-away units that are cheap and let you spend more on T-Fexes and Hive Guard, granted, but there are definitely tools in the Codex to handle GK with solid army builds.

Back to the grave of the Chaos Daemons, now.... :(
4 replies · active 728 weeks ago
This. Gray knights are good, but have weaknesses that a good all comers list should be able to take advantage of.

Daemons- well, they were bad to begin with, and GKs are simply a death knell. What, you mean your slow moving (fiends aside) random deep striking assault army with no transports mishap within 12" of my lines, and I can easily fit in nearly 200 s4-7 24 inch shots into my army? Have fun.
AP1 is irrelevant to Tyranids, it's ignoring saves that matters. Rending, NFW, etc, all ignore saves.

GK access to invulns is no better or worse than any other army, except that they can take Terminators as troops rather than Elites. I don't know whether that's a good idea yet, but the option is there. (note that many of their ICs have a 3++ thanks to Iron Halo + NFW.)

Only being 3+ but more expensive is very true- so how do you take advantage of this?I was unable to come up with a satisfactory solution.

Remember that double tougnhess also ignore FNP, so their Psycannons/Heavy Bolters/Autocannons will be cutting you down as well.

GK can trade fire with Devilgaunts pretty effectively considering you are paying 10pts for T3/6+ and they are paying 20pts for T4/3+.

I don't think that Hormies/Genestealers/etc are the solution, because these units are sadly lacking against almost all armies. As others have said: you can build a Tyranid army that beats GK, but then you can't beat anything else.

Daemons were never competitive; GK doesn't change anything in that respect.
I think Devilgaunts IN COVER will beat GKs, not in the open... in the open they'll get shredded. And if they have FNP up, as you say, they can eat Psycannons.... but then you're not firing those at the MCs?

AP1... my point was that many GK lists will feel forced to run Henchies with meltaguns in order to get the melta/AP1 shots into the list, and that those units are vulnerable to Nids, not that AP1 is desirable in a specifically anti-Nid list.
I'd have to crunch the numbers, but my intuition says that the extra turn of shooting from 24" range pushes things in the GK's favor. I could be wrong, though. (They often won't need to shoot Psycannons at MCs because they aren't a threat initially- remember, they still have NFW, Psyflemen, etc, etc, to shoot big guys.)

Fair enough on AP1, but remember that those same squads will often contain 5pt models with Boltguns, which we don't appreciate.
Giving Force Weapons to an entire army may be a fluffy thing to do, but it's an absolutely terrible idea in terms of game balance: some armies can blatantly ignore these, the IG being the most obvious example, while others are almost helpless. Cleansing flame is another horrible, ill-thought power. It's almost like game designers want to force us to play MSU Razorback spam at the expense of other, more interesting, builds.

There are also many other annoying things with the GK book, be it Terminators with grenades, stackable reserve control, dirt-cheap immunity to suppression, and the ridiculously underpriced Psybolts. While it does not necessarily make GK 'broken', it does, however, leave a bitter taste to many players who feel there may be some kind of double standards whenever 5th Edition Space Marines are concerned.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
mathhammer's avatar

mathhammer · 728 weeks ago

been playing the other 5th edition codexs (and chaos space marines) against the Grey knights and it has been fairly balanced. their lesser body count + power weapons against a higher body count and /or toys hasn't been bad. I still want to see more DE games but all the codexs (IG/SM/BA/SW/DE/CSM) have done on balance balance. Tyranids have been the one to loose out. (Then again 5 out 6 isn't a bad number for GW)
"AP1 is irrelevant to Tyranids, it's ignoring saves that matters. Rending, NFW, etc, all ignore saves."

Actually, it kinda is. AP 1 and 2 bounce FNP. I think it is worth noting that very little Grey Knight shooting bounce FNP. Unlike IG or Blood Angels, very little Grey Knight ranged shooting bounces FNP. Rending does, but with the relatively short range of the psycannon, thac can be mitigated with good deployment and board control. And at the end of the day a rend will come up statistically 1 out of every 6 hits. A full purgation/ purifier squad standing still should get roughly one or 2 rends. Considering the cost of that shooting, I am perfectly fine with that. Outside of certain Razorbacks, Jokero, and a few =][= tricks, long range AP 1 and 2 is a commodity, which I believe is in the Tyranids advantage.

"GK access to invulns is no better or worse than any other army, except that they can take Terminators as troops rather than Elites. I don't know whether that's a good idea yet, but the option is there. (note that many of their ICs have a 3++ thanks to Iron Halo + NFW.)"

They are not unique in that department. Dark Angels and Space Wolves all have decent "terminators as troops" options, but they get Storm Shields, Grey Knights do not. Yes, if they keep the power weapon, they have a 4+, but that is not very impressive compared to Genestealers, Hive Tyrants, and Trygons.

A common tactic for nids will be to lock the terminators down in a grinding assault and take out one or two of them, and then second waving them with something nasty. If you position it right, a Trygon or a Hive Tyrant, can wade in, knock out the squad before they get to swing, be out of combat with the attached character, and then probably knock each other out when it is just the two models left. Considering the average cost of most non-=][= characters, I am ok with that exchange.

"Remember that double tougnhess also ignore FNP, so their Psycannons/Heavy Bolters/Autocannons will be cutting you down as well. "

Only our toughness 3 stuff. Genestealers behind a gargoyle screen with FNP are fine.

"I don't think that Hormies/Genestealers/etc are the solution, because these units are sadly lacking against almost all armies. As others have said: you can build a Tyranid army that beats GK, but then you can't beat anything else. "

I disagree, in my experience, Genestealer heavy armies are the ones winning the most games, not the supression firepower net list. I have seen stealer shock go to the final round of the hard boyz and go 8-1. Here is the list that went to the top 4 tables of the Adepticon championships, and only lost to the Guard Player playing in the final round to a victory point tie breaker:
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2011...

I wouldn't right off Genestealer focused armies. They can be extremely powerful in the hands of someone who knows how to utilize cover and board control.
1 reply · active 728 weeks ago
Actually Heavy Bolters and Psycannons both ignore FNP when shooting Gaunts, Autocannons ignore it when shooting Warriors, and Rending hits ignore it against anything. GK _do_ need AP1, but not because of us.

DA and SW both have to spend points on an expensive HQ choice in order to get Terminator troops, and their CC invulns are unreliable (unless you go with the SS squad for DA.) A 4++ is actually pretty strong when you're looking at a whole squad of them.

I am aware of multicharging tactics, they are just very risky- GK swing simul with the Trygon (although after a Tyrant) adn can cause havoc for MCs via combat resol;ution.

GK will shred the Gargoyle screen with their lighter fire and then hit the Genestealers once the screen is down- do not underestimate the firepower that 40+ Storm Bolters can put out.

I've seen the Adepticon list, but having trashed a similar list myself rather recent,y I'm not impressed.Unsupported, the Genestealers just don't do enough, as the rest of the list can't effectively apply pressure quickly enough.
I wonder how shiny, new codex syndrome might affect your opinions. Certainly there will be a proliferation of Grey Knight armies initially as people pick up the new models and codex, but what is to be said about an inexperienced player with a new codex versus an experienced player with an older codex? Poor players exist even in a competitive environment. I think that is why Tyranids have done as well as they have to this point, even post-FAQ. However, I enjoyed the article and find your points interesting.
Ok everyone...you heard the man- Tyranids are done, put a fork in 'em.
Everybody pack their 'Nid armies up immediately and put 'em in the closet.
You can pull them out when a new codex or new edition arrives- if such approval is given.

Until such a time arrives, everybody get on the Grey Knight bandwagon, it's sitting in the station now, and you don't wanna miss it and be labled 'non-competitive.'
Also, bring your umbrella, since the sky is falling on the Tyranids....AGAIN.
I agree with most things said in the post. I've used my nids against the Grey knights now a couple times and found the following:
1. With a simple throw of catalyst on a screening unit (I use hormagaunts to make sure the screening unit don't slow down the rest of the army) the knights have a tendency to shoot at the big ones or warriors with lash whips. This gets me to my second point.
2. Lash whipping-units kills the knights rather simply.
3. Without a librarian, the -1 to Ld-tests doesn't really make that much of an difference.
4. Warriors are great aganst grey knights. And shrikes. Lash whip, toxin sacs and no shooting weapon with instant kills against them (assuming psy-cannons to be the weapon of choice) means they can actually draw a lot of fire before going down. They are especially effective against...ahh...purifiers (guys with psychic power that wounds half of the enemy models before CC) as they have to test on 3T6 and if they succeed they only cause one casulti (at best). They will, of course, draw fire.
5. All blasts are good against grey knights. Biovores... Zoanthropes. Kill as many as normal marines but grey knights are more expensive i e more effective against grey knights.
You realise it is easier to beat GK with Demons then with Tyranids?
I have a distinct feeling that GK book were designed to erase Dark Eldar and Nids, then Demons.

Demonhunters...pff..
1 reply · active 682 weeks ago
I've certainly heard that mentioned before (and thought it myself).

To be honest a 'Daemonhunter' army is a somewhat strange idea to begin with (Daemons aren't exactly know for their overwhelming player-base...).

However, Grey Knights appear to be designed to fight daemons that only appear in Ward's own mind:

1) Every single model has a force weapon, which ignores armour saves and can cause ID. Every daemon has an invulnerable save, but only a handful actually have armour saves, and none are immune to instant death. So, basically, the imperium might as well have provided their most elite army with pointy sticks, for all the good force weapons actually do against daemons.

2) There are many ways in which the GK codex seeks to nullify psykers, attack them specifically and/or do extra damage to them. However, nothing in the Daemons codex is a psyker (and also, isn't killing psykers SoB territory?).

3) Rad grenades lower toughness of enemy models for the first round of assault (ouch, but fair enough). However, they also lower the ID threshold for those models (what??). Now, aside from the fact that this goes completely against GW's usual trend of toughness-modifiers not affecting ID threshold, what's the point against daemons? They're still immune to ID, even if you make them T1, so why is this in any way necessary?

Unfortunatly, whilst those three things do next to nothing against daemons, they do a *lot* to nids. Rad grenades + hammerhand + daemonhammer = dead MC. Force weapons are horrible, in that GK have no 'safe' squads - any of their squads can potentially ID a MC - often before it gets to hit back. And, whilst negating psychic powers is not a huge thing, stopping a paroxysm can easily change the course of a game. Furthermore, 4 mindstrike missiles can down a tyrant (even if it's with tyrant guard and behind cover), without allowing it a single save.

It just seems like GK's advantages are tailored towards the wrong codex. :s

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