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Monday, May 9, 2011

The Importance of AP1: reliability


There's been a lot of talk about Reavers lately I've noticed and I think a lot of people have realised how important AP1 is to Dark Eldar. With Reavers being one of the best platforms for Heat Lances and also bringing some backfield disruption ability these guys are the obvious answer but it does beg the question: how important is AP1? The short answer is very bloody important and let's look at why.

Dark Eldar lists will generally have 15+ darklight weapons depending upon the points level. On average this is going to cause a lot of suppression and generally kill an AV11 vehicle a turn if everything has cover which isn't much (though the mass suppression is extremely valuable). At the same time that amount of S8 lance shots will take it's toll on a vehicle based army and more often than not, lead to some wrecks and explosions along the way. However, this is not always the case and in particular for armies with little to no AP1 options (Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Orks, etc.) more likely to happen. I'm sure most players have seen a game where tanks just don't die and it's a shake-fest all round. It happens. It's part of the problem when you build lists around just ranged shooting and minimal melta-weapons for Imperial armies and it's part of the problem for Xenos armies in army design. AP1 helps the statistics of actually popping tanks and moves the game forward in this regard.

Now this could be said to be a problem of the vehicle damage table and an issue which needs to be fixed for 6th edition. It's been discussed before to varying degrees of success here, here and here but this doesn't help us with our armies now.

During army design it becomes imperative that you place a premium on AP1. For some armies like Imperial Guard, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Space Marines, this is really easy to consider as they all have access to melta-weapons in multiple units across multiple Force Organisation slots. Importantly these units are not always suicide scoring units (like Chaos Space Marines) which means less pressure is put on the army to kill tanks and maintain a scoring presence. Other armies however don't have this luxury. Grey Knights (non-Coteaz builds), Dark Eldar and Tyranids all have to work much harder to access AP1 and make it fit within their army lists. And this is where list design becomes important. You cannot just throw AP1 into lists as it is often run in a particular way (i.e. melta is short-ranged). AP1 is significantly important but if your army isn't going to be able to take advantage of it, it's an option you're going to have to forego.

I think this is a problem I see in a lot of the previously mentioned armies which have access to more AP1 options such as Imperial Guard. A lot of players divvy up their suppression and anti-tank roles so that suppression is all ranged and true anti-tank is all close-ranged. This in itself a problem as higher AVs can protect lower AVs at range and then retreat when the true anti-tank rolls into range. This further emphasises the importance of making sure your army works as a synergistic whole. You may have awesome AP1 options in lots of meltaguns but make sure all of your ranged firepower isn't based around the autocannon for example.

In the end AP1 is a highly important aspect for all armies but isn't always a feasible inclusion. Reavers in Dark Eldar have a very high opportunity cost for example with the excellent units of Scourges and Beastmasters sharing the same slot. If you are able to include AP1 in your army in a way that fits and works within the army construct, you'll find a lot less games where parking lots just shake each other every turn and more actual damage happening. If you are unable to include AP1 in your army effectively however, ensure you have a large amount of high strength shots on multiple targets elsewhere. Sometimes you'll have those games where you can't wreck a tank but you'll at least be able to suppress multiple targets with a certain degree of reliability until the dice winds change.

Comments (31)

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I agree Kirby. AP1 in a Dark Eldar list is almost a must. I have tried working other ways around it, but if you cannot reliably kill a piece of armour, then your whole army can get stuck out in the cold, and that definetly does not work for a Dark Eldar army. Then it comes down to how to use your points effectively between Scourges and Reavers.
Inquisitor Ixe's avatar

Inquisitor Ixe · 725 weeks ago

Thank you! People saying that beastmasters are the best fast attack... Beastmasters can bite my nuts! Reavers look great AND they're the only really viable platform for heat lances.

Also... I wish they hadn't given DE "darklight" weapons. It's so hackneyed... "This is a laser, only dark! That's because we are Eldar, only dark! Now please pass the darkfork so I can eat my darkbeans in the dark."
5 replies · active 725 weeks ago
TheGayCommissar's avatar

TheGayCommissar · 725 weeks ago

Lol, I gotta get me some of them there darkbeans XD
Might want to avoid those. They give you darkgas.
Darkbeano can help with that, though.
@Inquisitor Ixe - Best post ever! You sir win 100,000,000 internets! LOL
In the grim darkness of the grimdarl, there is only grimdark.
Sisters of Battle - AP1 covered :D
pimpdaddyork's avatar

pimpdaddyork · 725 weeks ago

Ork player goes in corner and cries while mumbling to himself that assaulting vehicles works.
1 reply · active 725 weeks ago
Deffrolla, son. Except no AP1.....awwwww, nerds!
People are always shocked by my utter lack of AP1 in my Armoured Battlegroup... there just isn't any worthwhile unit for it.
"...armies with little to no AP1 options (Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Orks, etc.)"

Interesting how you just named *arguably* the three weakest "5th Edition" codicies.
5 replies · active 725 weeks ago
Dark Eldar aren't weak, and Orks aren't 5th edition.
Orks were designed for 5th (apparantly) which is why I put quote marks around "5th Edition codicies" - I thought people would be able to infer that by themselves.

Dark Eldar may not be "weak" objectively, but compared to all the other armies and archetypes out there, they seem to have fairly limited builds, and would rank on my radar as sub-Guard and sub-Wolves for sure, with maybe a tie with BA if not very slightly below them.

My point was that it seems a little coincidental that the armies without reliable melta (or melta at all) seem to be among the less powerful out of the codices we've seen so far for this edition, not trying to troll anyone...
The Ork, CSM, and Daemons codices are nominally designed for 5E. None of them come even close to being 5E-functional, because the design team was still getting its shit together at that point.

I think DE actually have MORE builds than SW or BA, they're just less-explored because they don't have the same popularity. (IG and SM are both extremely flexible books and thus end up with more builds than them I think.) Certainly they have more options than GK do.

I understand your point, I just disagree with virtually everything about it- not in a hostile way, mind you. I think DE are just as strong and flexible as any of the other books and, used properly, are a force to be reckoned with.
No, he's right....well, maybe Orks aren't really a 5th Ed. Codex....

Dark Eldar are 'fun.'
But they aren't built to survive in Tournament environments, where the Tables have minimal terrain.

Adepticon was the first Tournament to show that the DE won't crack the Top Ten, and I'm sure you'll see that repeated throughout the year....or however long it takes for them to go back into the closets, or wherever they were until the new book arrived.

Truthfully, it kinda pains me, too. I'd love another Xenos army to jam with, and the models are cool.
I just don't see the army succeeding, sorry to say.
"Dark Eldar are 'fun.'
But they aren't built to survive in Tournament environments, where the Tables have minimal terrain.

Adepticon was the first Tournament to show that the DE won't crack the Top Ten, and I'm sure you'll see that repeated throughout the year....or however long it takes for them to go back into the closets, or wherever they were until the new book arrived. "

There weren't many DE players at Adepticon, so its no surprise that none of them went 4-0. Its not like a large percentage of SWs or IG went 4-0. Only orks really did better then most codexes at adepticon, as far as percentage of users that went 4-0 and also scores of 30 or better.

Of note as far as DE -- 27.5% of championship attendees had BPs of 30 or more. 37.5% of DE players had 30 or better. That's not a definitetive number or anything since only 8 of 243 attendees used them but is of more value then expecting them t

Shameless plug but take a look here for more info: http://wintermans-rumorsofwar.blogspot.com/2011/0...
There are currently 2 reasonable ways to kill tanks - Melta Weapons and Rail Guns.

What both have in common is AP1 and a very high penetrate hit.

If you take out either of those options, the weapons suddenly aren't that great anymore. Melta outside of melta range? meh, you are going to have trouble penetrating in the first place. S9 AP2? Thats a lascannon, and its no good at killing tanks.

I think that the reason why mech is so strong on 5th edition is on my 2nd paragraph. The only reason to have a reasonable chance of killing even low AV vehicles is with both a high penetration roll and AP1. When you take out one of those you suddenly aren't reliabily killing anything anymore. Supressing, yes, but not actually taking out of the game.
AP1 really does make a difference when it comes to removing vehicles from the board (or stopping enemy transports). You're also right about the risks of running just autocannon-type ranged suppression weapons, especially when you encounter massed AV12 or multiple AV13-14 vehicles that can block TLoS to more fragile vehicles.

Good post Kirby!

"Melta outside of melta range? meh, you are going to have trouble penetrating in the first place."

Meltas outside of melta range might be meh, but S8 AP1 is still worth shooting in most instances (even if you are staring down a lot of AV14, even a glancing hit with AP1 is better than nothing).
"S9 AP2? Thats a lascannon, and its no good at killing tanks."

Uhh... no. Not true. Lascannons in particular, when coupled with a decent ability to hit, glance AV12 on a 3+, pen on a 4+. They also can glance AV13 on a 4+ and pen on a 5+, something autocannon-type weapons can only dream of doing, even in massed numbers. AP2 means lascannons can put easy wounds on all kinds of MCs. And, like the autocannon (and unlike most melta weapons), it can do all this at up to 48" away.

I'm not trying to impose that lascannons are better than melta weapons or autocannons; I just believe that, like melta weapons and autocannons, they can do something that neither of the former can - even in 5th Edition - and therefore have their place in a balanced armylist.
2 replies · active 725 weeks ago
Lascannons, to my eyes, are acceptable (but not good/great) tank-killing. You take them because they work reasonably well, not because they're the gun you specifically want- Railguns are better. Not having AP1 is a big liability on a mainline tank-killing weapon, and it's what makes Meltaguns necessary even in armies with Lascannons (like IG or Razorspam.)

Certainly Lascannons have a place- as a long-range gun with good potential for penetrating transports, they are extremely useful. But, at the end of the day, you'd still be perfectly willing to shell out the extra points for AP1 if you had the option.
Agreed, definitely. Like you said the strength 9 is very useful putting penetrating hits on transports and other AV10 to 12-ish vehicles, but that +1 modifier that comes with AP1 really does make a difference in removing vehicles altogether. Which makes running melta weapons a necessity in coordination with autocannons and lascannons very important for finishing the job effectively.
I wonder if they'd ever consider making the lascannon (and a few select similar weapons) AP 1 in the next edition. Meltas would still be more reliable for having the extra d6 to penetrate, while the lascannon would have superior range even if it has to remain stationary. So lascannons pop light vehicles with relative ease and still have a good chance at damaging heavier vehicles if they manage to glance or pen. Considering the premium usually paid on lascannons anyway, this would seem to make them fulfill their intended role. Just a thought.
I guess to clarify my second post, I believe that lascannons (and similar weapons) can damage medium armor (read: AV12, occassionally 13) and put wounds on MCs at long range. And in numbers can put multiple penetrating hits on light to medium armor, which can (to a SMALL degree) shore up for its lack of AP1. Same goes for the autocannon in massed numbers vs. AV10-11 targets.
Alright, I add criticism:

Dark Eldar in particular only has got acces to Ap1 weaponry on a few units. Basicly Scourges or Reavers. These are 134+ points, close ranged and vulnerable platforms. Got it? Now your "extremely omfg crucial Ap1!!" has still huge odds of failing... 5/9 chance of at least 1 shot missing... Penetration roll (your S6 baby, not S8)... Cover saves(?)... So with some luck you get to roll on the damage table, w00t! Oh dammit, you still do not that much on a 1 or 2, making the odds further worse.
If you fail anywhere in the above, the overpriced unit which you just took to fulfill a crucial role failed... and then he's dead the next turn. That while you took it for a particular reason: Unacceptable.

So no thank you, I'll rely on generating just more damage rolls with S8 and combat IN THE CASE OF DARK ELDAR.

Armies which can take Ap1 on less failing platforms and/or in a larger quantity want to take it of course. And hey guess what: Almost every amry has such platforms, from meltaguns on troops to speeders, from hammerheads to piranhas, from MM Attack Bikes to Dreadnoughts; all of these are actually efficient ways of getting that melta and Ap1.

Don't hate me please ;)
2 replies · active 725 weeks ago
Lots of things are less failing than Reavers ^^.
Yes, basicly everything haha.
I'm with Zjoekov on this one. AP1 is good, but short-range AP1 on units that don't want to be at short range means that the firepower has to be extremely dependable (like 3-4 melta shots, or at least 2 twin-linked ones), or really cheap so that if it fails, I can just shrug. 134 points is not expensive but it's not cheap either, and it's competing with the very solid Beastmaster units. In the case of DE, I'd rather run a Scourge squad with HWBs to stunlock vehicles that have a lot of firepower, and use other tools to finish off tanks.
2 replies · active less than 1 minute ago
Reavers can end 15" away from their Melta target and still get double pen. That's not all that "close range" to me.

>and use other tools to finish off tanks.
Heat Lances ARE the "other tools." They're the finisher against key targets where your Lances keep everything else shut down. What else do DE even get for destroying vehicles, really?
Just inflict more penetrating hits, beats the alternative methinks. 2 penetrating hits have a 55% chance of destroying a vehicle, while 1 Ap1 penetrating hit has 50% chance.
I don't know about Dark Eldar too much (just played my first game here recently @ 1000 points) but I was surprised at how not cool it was having my Vendettas chased around by a pair of Venoms with 5 dudes (can't recall their title, could someone enlighten me?) carrying 4 BS4 blasters. He had major crap dice rolling but it got my attention, and for ~130-ish points it seemed like a good anti-vehicle/MC choice for Dark Eldar.

On another note, he had a very hot hand on his flicker-field rolls... *grumble, grrr* %&^* STUPID flicker fields... *grumble, grumble*

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