It's pretty well-known that the Tyranid codex is the red-headed stepchild of 5E. Hell, we weren't that hot with the 4E book, either, shitty Nidzilla lists aside. I may disagree on the degree to which the codex has problems (as bad as Necrons? really, Stelek?), but I think we can agree that the problems exist and are major enough to place them well below the other updated books. As of late, it's become popular to post lists of "fixes" for how one would handle redesigning the book to be more functional. This is my shot at that.
HQs
Tyranid Prime: Add an option for Wings for 20pts. Let them get into Spores with their buddies.
Hive Tyrant: Indescribable Horror works on any unit that wants to shoot or charge the Tyrant (only if he is alone.) Hive Commander stacks. Deathspitters on monstrous creatures are S7 AP5 Assault 6 for 20pts. Devourers are 10pts, Strangler is 15, HVC is 20. Psychic Scream is 12" radius and no cover saves. The Horror works on Fearless/etc units. Leech Essence and Paroxysm are 18" range. Thorax Swarm is 15pts, Armored Shell is 25, Wings are 40. Shadow works on guys in vehicles.
The Swarmlord: Invuln is either just a straight 4++ or a 3++ in CC. BS increased to 4.
Tyrant Guard: Boneswords are 10pts.
Tervigon: Onslaught is not a psychic shooting attack. Stinger Salvo is 24" S6 AP- Assault 4.
The Parasite of Mortrex: Either give him a 4++ "dodge" save or make any model he kills spawn Rippers, not just those that fail a test. Alternately, give him a Power Weapon instead of Rending and T5. (In the former case, outflanking units lose a model automatically rather than having to test.) Either he or the Flyrant should make Shrikes and/or Gargoyles troop units.
Elites
Hive Guard: Probably a small price bump, maybe 5pts/model. Hey, you can't have everything.
Lictors: They don't get to assault out of deployment, sorry, that's Ymgarl's schtick. Let Pheremone Trail work when they're off the board or let them come in automatically first turn. Give Flesh Hooks three shots or make them BS4.
Deathleaper: Drop cost by 10pts or give him an invuln in CC, probably a 4++. Flesh Hooks and Pheremones as above.
Venomthrope: Make them T5, give them Stealth, or have their "aura" grant Stealth. The latter seems like the best fix, although it probably necessitates a cost increase.
Zoanthrope: Move back to Heavy Support. While it fits just fine in Elites, there is a need to diversify anti-tank in the codex. A little something to make Warp Lance more reliable would be nice, too.
The Doom of Malan'tai: Spirit Leech doesn't allow cover saves OR affects units in transports but allows cover saves. Probably move to HS along with Zoeys for uniformity's sake.
Pyrovore: Change price to 25pts per model or let them "throw" their templates a distance and give them a survivability boost (3+ or W3). Maybe an upgrade to I2 would be nice.
Ymgarl Genestealer: Grenades. They don't really need anything else.
Troops
Tyranid Warrior: Venom Cannons S7 or twin-linked.
Genestealers: Grenades option (1-2pts), possibly as an upgrade for the Broodlord (i.e. "if I'm here my whole squad has grenades.) Aura of Despair should be used during/before shooting phase so it isn't worthless.
Mycetic Spore: Remove the retarded FAQ changes; Primes can join anyone's Spore, you can drop a Spore empty if you want, and Tank Shocking won't move them (the tank stops 1" short.)
Termagants: Stranglewebs are free or S4. Spinefists are free or 18" range. Spike Rifles are free or 24" range. Giving them a way to glance tanks at range might be nice also.
Hormagaunt: Decrease to 5pts, with the option for Adrenal + Toxin for 8pts. Alternately, make them 7-8pts and Beasts again (losing the 3d6 run.)
Ripper Swarms: Make them scoring. Decrease the cost of all their options by 1pt. Alternately, make them 6-8pts/base instead of scoring.
Fast Attack
Shrikes: 4+ save or 5pt cost reduction. Make their options the same as Tyranid Warriors'.
Raveners: 4+ save (4++ in CC?) or some other boost in combat.
Sky-Slasher Swarm: Seriously, why do these even exist?
Gargoyles: They're fine! Just make a way to have them as troops via a HQ or something.
Harpy: 10pt cost drop and either T6 or 3+ save; or larger (~40pt) cost drop. Give it three attacks and WS4 for crying out loud, MCs shouldn't be atrocious in a fight. "Derp, I'm like a Dreadnought but fewer attacks, lower WS, and your regular guys can punch me to death without needing a Fist."
Spore Mine Cluster: 5pts per model. Let them either do their wacky deploy thing or Deep Strike normally (exploding if they mishap.)
Heavy Support
Carnifex: Drop cost by 30pts or by 10pts and let them take whatever options they want (i.e. wound allocation nonsense.) Change Deathspitter and other gun options as with Tyrant. Give them I2; WS4 would be nice, also. Toxin should be on a 2+ or at least a 3+. Crushing Claws should be +d3 attacks and rerolls against other MCs/vehicles.
Old One Eye: Make him an upgrade to a Carnifex squad. Give him Ld9. Let his attacks chain infinitely, a la Blood Talons. Give him a 2+ save. Drop his cost some on top of all that, because seriously.
Biovore: Let them shoot at targets they can't see while Lurking. Maybe also a small price break of S5 on the hits.
Trygon: Let units pop out of his hole the turn he arrives. Alternately, treat it as a board edge when entering (so they can move full distance and potentially assault.) Let anything except flying critters arrive by the hole, because if it's big enough for this 8" tall "everything on the board has LOS to me" monster, I'm sure a Huggafex can fit through.
Mawloc: Give him two sets of Talons and WS4. Also, give him Fleet. Why fuck doesn't he have Fleet? Don't allow cover saves against his Terror from the Deep rule. Make it so he can't mishap on terrain. Hell, make it so he ignores terrain when he moves; dude is burrowing, right?
Tyrannofex: Make him 210pts instead. Or make the Fleshborer Hive and Rupture Cannon be additional fire modes for his main gun (a la the Soulgrinder), not replacements. Or make him BS4 (or twin-linked) and ~20pts cheaper. Throw in another small upgrade as well (T7, WS4+Scything Talons, an invuln, whatever.)
Overall
So what are we adding? Anti-tank options across the board. Price drops on the MCs to even them out with all the extremely cheap tanks out there. Opening up some of the obviously-shitty options. Enabling reserve builds. Enabling swarms of little bugs. Giving the army a couple long-range options they don't have to pay through the nose for. Making the special characters actually viable.
What aren't we doing? Letting the whole army assault the turn it arrives. Making everything mega-cheap. (Cheaper, yes, but 100pts for a T6 body is a ridiculous deal.) Making any of the options for armor-ignoring CC attacks cheaper than they are or giving armor-ignoring ranged attacks, which are out of theme for 'Nids. We also aren't making the "good" units any better at what they do, because in most cases those guys are just fine; the point is to shore up the units that are missing things.
Logging you in...
TheDuke · 719 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 719 weeks ago
Karnstein · 719 weeks ago
Bro_Lo 82p · 719 weeks ago
Ymgarls NEED to be cheaper. 23 points is crazy expensive.
I'm surprised you haven't considered more about the survival needs of some of the units. Warriors shouldn't die straight outright to a psyautocannon bolt, when a marine gets an armour save. Even Ravs and shrikes would be upgraded to a similar poor level. Multi-wound models really need Eternal Warrior. Having to play such a tight game that these units need cover or they get auto-deathed is just not cool. If I can't have eternal warrior, then my 5+ needs to be 5++ at the very least. At a similar point level to Terminators, they're just so much worse.
Ripper swarms... I don't care if they're not scoring, they shouldn't fill FoC slots... what do they do?
Heavy MCs... Drop them all by 20% and make T'Fex BS4. Done.
FoC mixing up is obviously required. Winged Primes should make Shrikes and Gargoyles troops. Tail should be an upgrade (to beast) for a prime to do the same for Raveners.
Lots of other changes, but I'm tired.
bugsculptor · 719 weeks ago
14pts for genestealers is crazy expensive... when you compare with what 15pts of grey hunter gets you. But if the genestealers can hit first... it all changes.
@Dreambolt · 719 weeks ago
Other wise I have no real complains, this would work nicely. Tyranids are not that bad, even small tweaks like this how great a fully viable army, full of choices!
"Let Pheremone Trail work when they're off the board or let them come in"
In truth the lictor was already on the board, hell its been following your army for Days!
Dobi · 719 weeks ago
Think about it for a second. You can deploy ANYWHERE on the board. After that, you can run. With which you still cannot get closer than 1" to any enemy. Again. You can deploy anywhere. THEN run. Why the f*ch would I run when I can deploy anywhere??? Changed my mind or what??? Nonsense... just nonsense.
But yes, the Lictor should be played as it is on the board from the very beginning, but stalking, lurking, is camouflaged, etc... Secret deployment like Ymgarl but without assault. But, considering that Lictors ARE the ultimate assassins fluff-wise... Like Predators or something like that. (Which makes me think about the movie Predator if it was about a Lictor. It uncloaks, politely waits for Arnold's reaction, and until he empties a full magazine of ammo into it's stomach, THEN tries to attack him. Hell. Cruddance should have watched that movie to get the idea of a lone cloaked killer beast...)
Daniel · 719 weeks ago
Bro_Lo 82p · 719 weeks ago
CorvusRex · 719 weeks ago
Itspug · 719 weeks ago
timff8 · 719 weeks ago
I suggest, instead, that they have a rule that the first time a model suffers a hit that would otherwise insta-kill them, they are instead reduced to 1 Wound(obviously this dosen't allow a model with one would to simply ignore a killing blow). This is very situational, but still prevents you from losing an entire squad of Warriors to a devastator squad in one turn, and kinda fluffy as it represents the HIve Mind forcing the last weeoping dregs of their body to limp forward a little while longer.
captgrizz · 719 weeks ago
SandWyrm · 719 weeks ago
SandWyrm · 719 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 719 weeks ago
SinSynn 107p · 719 weeks ago
Jeez, Puppy....
LOL!
abusepuppy 121p · 719 weeks ago
degravemind 41p · 719 weeks ago
The second change is to give the Harpy free twin linked Impaler cannon. OMG, this fast moving semi-weak MC can now move into position, stay in cover, and yet still fill his role of anti-tank. and it is in the Fast attack slot.
Those two simple changes I think would allow a wider variety to be taken and still be competitive.
Matais Yohansen · 719 weeks ago
I do think Shadow in the Warp should affect guys in vehicles, but not things like Doom of Malan'Tai or Leech Essence. GW has pretty firmly set the precedent that you can't kill guys inside transports with anything except the explosion of said transport. Maybe Doom's ability is like Superman's X-Ray vision: it can't work through lead, and that's what Marines use in Rhinos or something. I want to suggest it affecting open-topped vehicles, but that would be stupid, as it would ruin Orks and Dark Eldar while giving Marines yet another advantage.
Although I can see specifically why Leech Essence doesn't work against guys inside vehicles. It's a shooting attack, so if you want to then assault...well, how can you? Maybe a wording in the rules would be easy enough to clear it up, but still.
Nurglitch · 719 weeks ago
However, what I did find was that my army didn't fit when it came out: My army list had been based on Tyranid Warriors in HQs and Elites, with Lictors in Elites, and then Without Number Termagants (renaming them Termagants was the best thing the next Codex did; fuck that 'gaunts' bullshit).
To my mind what might have worked best would have been making Tyranid Warriors more like Tyranid Primes, and have integrated swarms, units that could abuse the ever-mutating shit out of Tyranid units. So not just complex units of stuff Tyranid Warriors and Carnifexen, but including Termagants and Ripper and so on.
I also would have had Barbed Stranglers (and Stranglethorn Cannons) create Difficult/Dangerous terrain, and sold 5" diameter Tyranid terrain.
abusepuppy 121p · 719 weeks ago
There's a lot of interresting ways they could've changed things, but I was aiming for a solution that kept the existing book as intact as possible and simply tweaked rules/stats/costs to create viable options.
(I like the new book better than the old one, but that doesn't mean I don't think it has flaws. It does pretty okay in casual play or areas where mech is not an issue, but elsewhere....)
WestRider · 719 weeks ago
- Reserves Manipulation: Have it be optional, like the Autarch's boost. Sometimes you don't want things coming in earlier.
- FOC Manipulation: Something should definitely unlock Gargoyles as Troops. Either a Flyrant, winged Prime, or the Parasite. Maybe something that would let Warriors expand to Elites and/or Heavy Support, with some sort of mods, like the 3rd Ed Heavy Warrior Broods, half of whom could pick up a BS or VC. Elite Warriors perhaps get Prime WS/BS even without a Prime Attached.
- Tyranid Prime: In addition to the option for Wings, let his Alpha Warrior Rule work with Shrikes
- Lictors: Make Flesh Hooks AP6
- Pyrovore: Needs to be improved, not just get a Points Drop. Otherwise his opportunity Cost is still too high. I like the ability to throw the Template here.
- Warriors: I'd like to see something to differentiate the DeathSpitter a little more from the Devourer. My ideal would probably be something along the lines of S6 24" Range, Assault 2. Venom Cannon should be Assault 2 instead of Blast, probably S7 as well.
- Gaunts: Allow one Brood per Warrior Brood to be taken without occupying a Troops slot. These Gaunts can't take Upgrades or unlock a Troops Tärv.
- Hormies: I like the idea of them at 7-8 Points as Beasts. That 12" Assault was really useful.
- Rippers: I like them as a non-Scoring choice, but they need something to still be worth it. Your Points drop might well be enough.
- Raveners: Give them the option for Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs, like every other Unit in the Dex that has any options whatsoever. 4+ Armour Save or a Points drop would probably be nice, too, but the missing AG/TS was one of the first faults I noticed in the Dex when I got it.
- Fex: Needs some kind of Defensive upgrade. WS4 is obvious, but I kind of like the theme of aggression over defense by skill implied by the low WS and Re-Rolls to Hit. I think I'd rather see a 5++ Save or T7. Crushing Claws should give +1 on the Vehicle Damage Table. HVC should also go to Assault 2 instead of Blast.
- Trygon: Maybe go with the old Rules for him, where you nominated a Brood to be following along in his Tunnel, and they automatically popped out the next Turn. And yeah, anything without Wings should be able to come along.
- T-Fex: BS4, I think. Change the Fleshborer Hive to a Devourer Hive: S4 AP- 18" Assault 30. Give him something to represent the Defensive Pheremones mentioned in his Fluff. Other Nid Units in the same Assault as him get Preferred Enemy, maybe.
MagicJuggler 34p · 719 weeks ago
Indescribable Horror: Units with a model within 18" of the Tyrant (that and Shadow is Range 18" as well) take Morale tests on 3d6. Congrats, you've got yourself a terror-bomb.
Re-merging Biovores and Pyrovores into the same unit would clear up a lot of headaches as well, especially if said Pyrovores get the Tfex Acid-Spray (or a weaker version even). Or...just bring back Bioacid Spore Mines.
Dobi · 719 weeks ago
An interesting question that has been bothering me about nids: how come that maximum T for nids is 6? Even the fragile Eldar can build something (the Wraithlord) with T8. I guess Tyrannofex (hell it's an evolced Land Raider, a living TANK!) should be T8. It was evolded to withstand the biggest amount of punishment... Make it T8 W4 Sv2+ instead if T6 W6 Sv2+. And give it some ability so that can ram tanks. But that's more of a wishful thinking than actual fixing (like make the Harpy as a "transport" for Gargoyles).
abusepuppy 121p · 719 weeks ago
Nody · 719 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 719 weeks ago
Dobi · 719 weeks ago
So yeah, nid players get pissed off as well, problem is, no one (and first and foremost, GW) cares about it.
GW should have the balls and admit that "guys, we messed up the nid codex big time" and release a huge errata or Rev 2 codex along with the missing models in the 2nd wave... Of course, Rev 2 is just daydreamind but... will the 2nd wave ever happen? Or should we all shelf nids until 6th ed. and start Dark Eldar / Grey Knights / wait for Necrons? The latter thought makes me a sad panda.
TKE · 719 weeks ago
Don't forget the recast model hasn't exactly sold like the proverbial hot cakes, so it NEEDS to stay around until such time as they get their profit from the kit.
In addition, Wraithlords are a hugely integral part of Eldar fluff, even if they have somewhat been subsumed by the invention of the Autarch to fill the historic role of Wraithlords in the Council.
I am incredibly hopeful we shall see a diversification of Wraith-Constructs in much the same way Eldar Titans vary from Revenant to Warlock, to Phantom.
Polf · 719 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 719 weeks ago
TKE · 719 weeks ago
The theory has merit, but the execution here is 'unpolished'. :)
Polf · 719 weeks ago
Grovel 61p · 699 weeks ago
muggins12 45p · 719 weeks ago
Warrior_Warlock · 719 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 719 weeks ago
Dobi · 719 weeks ago
Or for crying out loud, give nids some decent AP3 weapons to melt power armour! We are talking about evolution here... evolve some dirt strong poison that melts through power armor. Give a chance to bugs at least...
bugsculptor · 719 weeks ago
I had 18 stealers with a broodlord attack a grey hunter squad in cover this weekend.... and lose. Argh!
Dobi · 719 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 719 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 719 weeks ago
Keeper · 719 weeks ago
Loriness · 719 weeks ago
nearly everything has a problem vs pts paid.
The only reason I didnt sell them all off is because I have them nicely painted. GW srew it bad for them, time to shelf.
Dobi · 719 weeks ago
Bottom line, Nidz are a hard codex to play but not (only) because of synergy and Synapse and stuff, but because of the bad rules, the missing models, the design issues, and the FAQd up FAQ... The Hive Mind cannot outsmart any foe when the Hive Mind itself is so dumb not to evolve grenades / all the above fixes as well.
Damn. The only reason I don't put the whole army to the shelf because I put so much money and effort into buying and painting them and I really like the way they turned out... I'm a bit dissappointed in GW and the way nids are handled. :(
Grovel 61p · 699 weeks ago
ramtastic · 705 weeks ago
It would make infantry easier to control and MUCH punchier in combat (Boneswords) and would definitely see the return of swarm based armies in a big way. Importantly, it would make both reserve and swarm builds somewhat viable again, allowing for some much needed variety for those more competitively inclined among us.
abusepuppy 121p · 705 weeks ago
Grovel 61p · 699 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 699 weeks ago
itcamefromthedeep · 697 weeks ago
If you're doing an overhaul you do a friggin' overhaul, not this piece of junk.
6e fixes? Charging into cover means you lose the bonus attack for charging but doesn't affect your Initiative. That along with making vehicles follow more of the rules would pretty much solve the Tyranid metagame problems. Note that there are rumblings about Preferred Enemy working on guns, which would make Tyranids with an Old Adversary Tyrant into a silly firebase (T-fex, Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, Devilgaunts).
Other, face-saving fixes: Come out with White Dwarf stats for new models like what they did with the Vampire Counts beastie that you can make with the Zombie Dragon kit. For instance, do a combined Biovore/Pyrovore/Something kit, where the "something" is a new Heavy Support option that gets to kill tanks with its gun. Also: a new Hive Guard/Tyrant Guard/Something kit that includes another tank-hunting option for Troops or Heavy Support (maybe include wins in the kit and make it Fast Attack).
abusepuppy 121p · 697 weeks ago
All of the 6E rules we've heard "rumored" so far are total garbage. If any of them happen to be right, it will be by pure chance.
GW doesn't seem to have much interest in Tyranids at this point, since they've gotten no model support and no rules support for quite a long time now. One can assume that they are satisfied with where the army is at, which is unfortunate to say the least.
itcamefromthedeep · 695 weeks ago
I agree that current 6e rumors look unreliable to say the least, but so long as we're wishlisting it is a vehicle with which to make Tyranids work more as advertised.
The Vampire Counts release was pretty much out of the blue, as was the Fire Prism/Night Spinner kit. Tyranids seem as likely as any other army to get kind of odd mini-release. In any case the topic was fixes, and new units to cover weaknesses is certainly an option that could be exploited, with the benefit of not having to change any existing rules.
abusepuppy 121p · 695 weeks ago
Stranglethorn isn't great, but it won't ever be as long as we play 5E and tanks are king. You could make it zero points and people still wouldn't bother with it. Devs are good, but short range is a big limiter in an army full of short-range guns.
>Tyranids seem as likely as any other army to get kind of odd mini-release
Given that they have no gotten any releases of any kind at all since their codex, I would argue otherwise. VC has gotten several different kits over the past several years; I believe Eldar have as well.
The point of "fixes" here was not to create a new and balanced codex but to supply some relatively simple (mainly stat/cost changes) things that could be done to make the book work better again. To really "fix" things would involve designing the codex over again from scratch, because that's pretty much how writing a codex works.
SnaleKing 70p · 689 weeks ago