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Dreadnoughts or Warjacks? Which do you prefer? |
Here are what I see as some of the key points of Warmahordes, that really distinguish between it and 40k/Fantasy, aside from the obvious factions and fluff.
1. Warmachine is centered around heroic individuals, that lead and support your force.
2. Changing casters can completely change the style of play of an army.
3. When these individuals die, you lose the game, regardless of the condition of the rest of your army.
4. Each model/unit does all phases of activation at a time, rather than army-wide move-shoot-combat.
5. You-go/I-go system, with no dice control outside of your turn.
6. Knowledge of both your army and your opponent's army is vital
7. Warmachine is a skirmish level game = few miniatures. Not truly epic!
One might add to that:
8. Sculpts are, on average, of superior quality (though this is, of course, in the eye of the beholder).
and 9. Privateer Press is a company that appears to value interaction with their customers.
but I wouldn't want to sound too much like what VT2 would call a "fanboi." Let's start with #1.
1. Warmachine is centered around heroic individuals, that lead and support your force.
Whatever force you choose, whatever faction you play, it will include a warcaster or warlock. These are the heroic individuals that lead the force, support it with various rules and spells, and occasionally do the deed of killing the opposing caster themselves. Mandatory, much like an HQ.
I will specify here what I mean by "heroic," as VT2 makes the point that in at least the GW sense, most of these individuals are not truly "heroic." As an example, let's use Lord Draigo, of the Grey Knights. Draigo is the utter epitome of heroism - he can take on otherworldly demi-gods and win, he can live forever, he's revered by all, etc. etc. Rules-wise, he has the best wargear, the Grandmaster special abilities, a better statline than comparable characters, and so on.
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Not this badass... for a reason! |
I will note here that each character does often have special rules, in addition to their spells and weapons, that can help or support certain types of troops. Counter to what VT2 believes, no tiers are required for this. For example, Feora, Protector of the Flame grants Fearless to all Flameguard models in her control as a passive ability. Grand Exemplar Kreoss gives all Exemplar models in his army immunity to continuous effects as a passive ability. In addition, each caster has a unique spell list, with at least one signature spell that's not found anywhere else in the game. The particular spells on a caster's list can be what makes a caster very good (Major Victoria Haley of Cygnar, for instance) or very poor (Captain E. Dominic Darius, also of Cygnar, for instance).
2. Changing casters can completely change the style of play of an army.
Casters are extremely varied within a faction, even from one incarnation of the character to the next (known as their Epic form). Their different abilities, stats, and spell lists means that they can use the same models in different ways. This is both similar and different to 40k. The best corollary I can think of are the different special characters in the Codex: Space Marines and how they modify Chapter Tactics. A Vulkan army will play very differently from a Pedro army, and indeed taking different warcasters can lead to a very different army. However, you'll often want different models in each SM list to take the most advantage, while the same models can work just as well in a Warmachine list with different casters. Sticking with Menoth, let's consider how this might work with Temple Flameguard, a basic 4/6 point unit with Reach, Shield Wall, and combined melee attacks.
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She only wishes her troops had meltaguns! |
In contrast, what if the commander of the army was Grand Scrutator Severius, a much more backfield caster? Here, the Flameguard are going to be much more defensive in general, acting as a screen and protection to keep anything from getting through to Severius. They might be moving slower and using their Shield Wall ability much more. In addition, Severius can support them defensively using Defenders Ward, which boosts both the defense and armor of the Flameguard, but has little to specifically support them offensively other than his control-wide boost spell. One unit, two very different uses with only the change of a warcaster. If this type of army-flexibility is appealing to you, then maybe Warmahordes is a good fit. Bonus - you don't have to repaint your entire army color scheme to avoid being called a WAAC counts-as jerk!
3. When these individuals die, you lose the game, regardless of the condition of the rest of your army.
A very large difference between 40k/Fantasy and Warmahordes is that the game ends, period, upon the death of your main caster. It doesn't matter what the rest of your army is like, how dominant a position on the board you have; if your caster dies, you lose. To be fair, a lot of people do get unhappy about “caster kill = win.” This is particularly true when they've been dominating a game, hardly losing any models, and their opponent somehow sees an opening and with a few lucky rolls, kills your caster and wins. One can feel almost cheated. If this really ruins the game for you, then maybe Warmachine is not a system you want to play.
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Allister Caine in another life? |
However, unlike VT2, I don't believe this is a bad thing. This makes it much more difficult to play – how close do I dare get to the front lines with my caster? How much focus/fury should I spend this turn, leaving me open to retaliation on my opponent's? What type of models should I put in this list, to support my caster/let my caster support? Casters aren't designed to do everything on their own. It also means that if you're playing a scenario that your army cannot or has a very difficult time winning, you still have a chance of winning the game, no matter what.
For now, this article has gone on long enough, so let's pause, and I'll pick up the rest of the points in my next article.
Firstius · 718 weeks ago
Big armies clashing can certainly be epic, but it is not required. Epic referes to drama, heroism and scope not the number of meat bags in the force. Traditionally most epic tales focus on individuals or groups with huge battles being part of the set more than anything else.
Guestivus · 718 weeks ago
backintheday · 718 weeks ago
Wild · 718 weeks ago
Chevynova · 718 weeks ago
jasonc · 718 weeks ago
And it reminds me a lot like chess.
kaptainvon 97p · 718 weeks ago
tzeentchling 76p · 718 weeks ago
Navitude · 718 weeks ago
*Mention each unit/solo has there own special abilities and sometime spells that make each of them more unique. Depending on perspective, one can say that it's difficult to "class" units/solos like in 40k, or that each unit defines it's own "subclass" under shooting, cc, or tanking.
*Redundancy and list balancing isn't as simple or clear cut as in 40k. Generally you won't see the same army or general list more than once or twice, unless your playing the same person over and over.
Also a few notes:
* On number 5, generally each army has either a unit/ability that can indirectly inhibit opponents rolls, and in a few cases acts outside of your turn, gotta love Menoth...
* Tier lists aren't mandatory, but VT2 has caught onto one bad point of Warmahordes. About 25% of war casters can improve there army significantly compared to others, it's just figuring out scaling of tier effects verse cost. Example, eKross, eVlad, Goreshade, etc...
*Games can be played on larger point scales, kinda only seen in local league. At 100+ point levels you can see generally 40-50+ models really easy, and the game last much longer and are really ridiculous and fun.
tzeentchling 76p · 718 weeks ago
Bommar 33p · 718 weeks ago
kaptainvon 97p · 718 weeks ago
The challenge in Warmahordes is about risk vs. reward - balancing the need to have your warcaster affect the game in order for your other troops to achieve with the need to keep them safe so you don't lose. Some people achieve that through channeling, warcaster attachments and other devices that project their spells from other points (so their caster can stay back and artificially extend the range of their influence). Some people achieve that through taking self-sufficient troops that don't really need caster support and camping their focus for extra armour or fury for transfers - in effect, minimising the need for the caster to influence events. Some people take tougher casters and build their lists around aggressive defence of an active, front-line caster - particularly effective for casters whose feats afford them a turn's grace from reprisals by reducing the options of opponents within their control area.
I wanted to say that to VT2 but the signal to noise ratio around his post was too much for me. He was right about the reduced importance of range and the increased importance of positioning (although he calls it 'simple' and I call it 'challenging', because my spatial reasoning is poor), but I think he did the assassination element of the game something of a disservice.
Marshal_Wilhelm 71p · 718 weeks ago
The Warcaster needs to live for you to win, but contributes practically nothing be camping out back. The more you risk, the better your chances of winning and losing.
Sounds fun to me.
What am I missing?
kaptainvon 97p · 718 weeks ago
tzeentchling 76p · 718 weeks ago
reynor · 718 weeks ago
Truth is, the epic Alistair Caine model is waaaaaay cooler.
And I gave up on WM/H more than a year ago.
Marshal_Wilhelm 71p · 718 weeks ago
EDIT: Why did you give it up?
Guestivus · 718 weeks ago
Which isn't to say that all those factions are universally more complex - you build more and less direct lists with any factions, whereby direct I mean you can know easily which tabletop options to cut out and what your models can go do at any given time.
tzeentchling 76p · 718 weeks ago
Sethis · 718 weeks ago
No whining, no crying, no bitching. Facts, and opinions backed up by those facts which help direct you to an informed decision.
Please continue to write more articles, this one is excellent!
Daybreak · 718 weeks ago
Ajax · 718 weeks ago
My only hesitation at adding a small WarmaHordes force to my collection is the cost; PP games seem to have developed a reputation as costing less than GW, and although the total model count may be far lower, the price-per-model seems to be a good deal more. $20-30 (US) for a single Warcaster? Really!?
I also dislike the games basic requirement to use their named characters. Deneghra, Hailey, Vlad... I prefer GW's approach of "Generic Space Marine Captain / Imperial Guard Colonel plus a shopping list of wargear?" that way I can make my own character in the game. I guess its a by product of my roleplaying background. But, I'd prefer if my army could be led by MY character.
muggins12 45p · 718 weeks ago
Went Awer · 718 weeks ago
VinsKlortho · 718 weeks ago
Crisis_Vyper · 718 weeks ago
What happens if your playstyle is a combination of the casters? From seeing some of my friends play, I noticed that the flow of the army is extremely dependent upon how well attuned you are to one of the limited casters in the army. As compared with 40k or fantasy, you can tailor your HQ to your exact specification. In addition, as somewhat of an individual, I do not like to be forced to use something to follow the rest of the herd and the appeal of named characters is not one of the marks of individuality. In addition, 40k is based upon the idea of making armies in an overall sense, rather than one that is based upon what HQ I take. It is much harder to mix and match units in warmachine/hordes than in 40k.
Other than that, the only reason why I am not into Warmachine/Hordes is because of the fact that I never liked Jacks. They look very cartoonish to me. I however do like the Menoth's infantry looks.
Went Awer · 718 weeks ago
It's really your imaginations limitation not 40K's and not wm/h's.
Firstius · 718 weeks ago
As for not being into Jacks well there is always Hordes.
tzeentchling 76p · 718 weeks ago
Guestivus · 718 weeks ago
Things like regular Haley or Siege come in around $12 or $13 and they're just regular sized figures. Huge figures like Terminus or Karchev are a different story, but that's because they're huge.
Marshal_Wilhelm 71p · 718 weeks ago
One is $25 but most seem less than $10....
muggins12 45p · 718 weeks ago
chumbalaya 79p · 718 weeks ago
On a more personal tangent, which faction has the most potential for wacky high jinks and shenanigans? The kind of stuff that will make your opponent cry OP then laugh when he realizes how ridiculous your play has to be to allow such insanity.
tzeentchling 76p · 718 weeks ago
chumbalaya 79p · 718 weeks ago
tzeentchling 76p · 718 weeks ago
chumbalaya 79p · 718 weeks ago
WestRider · 718 weeks ago
Guestivus · 718 weeks ago
KingCronan · 718 weeks ago
The Lieutenant · 718 weeks ago
I've just started getting into WM/H, as has Clayman, and Archie's getting back into it round here.
The fact you HAVE to use a named character does annoy me, cause I'm a fluff merchant, but...practically, how is that different from 5th ed 40K? Special characters are good that you're almost handicapping yourself if you don't use them now. Course, that's not always the case, but it is often enough for me to have stopped caring enough for it not to ruin the game.
@chumbalaya: Yeah, Cryx are the kings of debuff, but Circle are kings of what we've termed 'shenanigans'.
Basically, Circle are pro at moving your opponents stuff about, causing him a headache, and they have some hefty buffs/debuffs too.
FeralJim 47p · 718 weeks ago
VinsKlortho · 718 weeks ago
If you get a really nasty alpha strike off in 40k it can lead quite a bit of guilt as the last 4-6 turns turn into a case of you cleaning up the rest of your opponent's army and your opponent only sticking around so he doesn't give up battle points for conceding. In WM/H, I've seen quite a few underdogs pull out last minute wins when everything looked hopeless. The closest I've seen in 40k is when my girlfriend tied me in a game after I reduced her army down to a single Chaos Marine and a couple of Plague Marines in a 1k point game while I still had 75% of my army with my Dark Eldar in a kill points mission because her army was built to have very few kill points in it.