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Monday, July 18, 2011

Warmachine – Is it Right For You? Part 1

Dreadnoughts or Warjacks? Which do you prefer?
In his now semi-infamous rant, VT2 recently railed against all of the faults, perceived or real, of Warmachine/Hordes and its players, in trying to explain why he doesn't like the system. Some of his points were valid, if difficult to discern beneath the sarcasm, and some of them were simply wrong (or at best, misinformed). In this article I'll try to address some of these issues and explain them a bit more clearly. I'll also point out some of the differences between Warmachine/Hordes and 40k/Fantasy, so that new players can be more informed about whether or not Warmahordes is right for them.

Here are what I see as some of the key points of Warmahordes, that really distinguish between it and 40k/Fantasy, aside from the obvious factions and fluff.



1. Warmachine is centered around heroic individuals, that lead and support your force.
2. Changing casters can completely change the style of play of an army.
3. When these individuals die, you lose the game, regardless of the condition of the rest of your army.
4. Each model/unit does all phases of activation at a time, rather than army-wide move-shoot-combat.
5. You-go/I-go system, with no dice control outside of your turn.
6. Knowledge of both your army and your opponent's army is vital
7. Warmachine is a skirmish level game = few miniatures. Not truly epic!


One might add to that:
8. Sculpts are, on average, of superior quality (though this is, of course, in the eye of the beholder).
and 9. Privateer Press is a company that appears to value interaction with their customers.
but I wouldn't want to sound too much like what VT2 would call a "fanboi." Let's start with #1.

1. Warmachine is centered around heroic individuals, that lead and support your force.
Whatever force you choose, whatever faction you play, it will include a warcaster or warlock. These are the heroic individuals that lead the force, support it with various rules and spells, and occasionally do the deed of killing the opposing caster themselves. Mandatory, much like an HQ.

I will specify here what I mean by "heroic," as VT2 makes the point that in at least the GW sense, most of these individuals are not truly "heroic." As an example, let's use Lord Draigo, of the Grey Knights. Draigo is the utter epitome of heroism - he can take on otherworldly demi-gods and win, he can live forever, he's revered by all, etc. etc. Rules-wise, he has the best wargear, the Grandmaster special abilities, a better statline than comparable characters, and so on.

Not this badass...
for a reason!
Warmachine characters are not that kind of heroic. The PP characters are a step above the normal soldiers of the kingdom, and able to do things that very few else in their world can do, but they're not gods, and they have weaknesses. They have better equipment than the grunts and even elites, but it's not infinitely better.  They're human beings (/elfs/trolls/dragonspawn/liches), not mini-gods or genetically modified super-monsters. To me, that does make the game more interesting – the warcaster or warlock isn't the guy who can take on an opposing army and win by himself, but someone with limitations. If you want the person leading your army to be the most utter badass ever, one who can tank whole armies by themselves, Warmahordes is not for you.

I will note here that each character does often have special rules, in addition to their spells and weapons, that can help or support certain types of troops. Counter to what VT2 believes, no tiers are required for this. For example, Feora, Protector of the Flame grants Fearless to all Flameguard models in her control as a passive ability. Grand Exemplar Kreoss gives all Exemplar models in his army immunity to continuous effects as a passive ability.  In addition, each caster has a unique spell list, with at least one signature spell that's not found anywhere else in the game. The particular spells on a caster's list can be what makes a caster very good (Major Victoria Haley of Cygnar, for instance) or very poor (Captain E. Dominic Darius, also of Cygnar, for instance).

2. Changing casters can completely change the style of play of an army.
Casters are extremely varied within a faction, even from one incarnation of the character to the next (known as their Epic form). Their different abilities, stats, and spell lists means that they can use the same models in different ways. This is both similar and different to 40k. The best corollary I can think of are the different special characters in the Codex: Space Marines and how they modify Chapter Tactics. A Vulkan army will play very differently from a Pedro army, and indeed taking different warcasters can lead to a very different army.  However, you'll often want different models in each SM list to take the most advantage, while the same models can work just as well in a Warmachine list with different casters. Sticking with Menoth, let's consider how this might work with Temple Flameguard, a basic 4/6 point unit with Reach, Shield Wall, and combined melee attacks.

She only wishes her troops had meltaguns!
If the commander of the army is Feora, Priestess of the Flame, then the Flameguard will take on a more offensive role. Feora often wants to be pushing forward into the midfield and plays a very aggressive game, and so the Flameguard are often running and charging, rather than using their shield wall ability. Feora supports them offensively by the spell Ignite, which gives them additional power on their attacks, and makes sure they'll stick around by passively granting them Fearless, but does little for them defensively.

In contrast, what if the commander of the army was Grand Scrutator Severius, a much more backfield caster? Here, the Flameguard are going to be much more defensive in general, acting as a screen and protection to keep anything from getting through to Severius. They might be moving slower and using their Shield Wall ability much more. In addition, Severius can support them defensively using Defenders Ward, which boosts both the defense and armor of the Flameguard, but has little to specifically support them offensively other than his control-wide boost spell. One unit, two very different uses with only the change of a warcaster. If this type of army-flexibility is appealing to you, then maybe Warmahordes is a good fit. Bonus - you don't have to repaint your entire army color scheme to avoid being called a WAAC counts-as jerk!

3. When these individuals die, you lose the game, regardless of the condition of the rest of your army.
A very large difference between 40k/Fantasy and Warmahordes is that the game ends, period, upon the death of your main caster. It doesn't matter what the rest of your army is like, how dominant a position on the board you have; if your caster dies, you lose. To be fair, a lot of people do get unhappy about “caster kill = win.” This is particularly true when they've been dominating a game, hardly losing any models, and their opponent somehow sees an opening and with a few lucky rolls, kills your caster and wins. One can feel almost cheated. If this really ruins the game for you, then maybe Warmachine is not a system you want to play.

Allister Caine in another life?
As VT2 noted, casters can be rather squishy. They're decently armored, they'll stand up to a bunch of grunt attacks, but if a heavy jack/beast or charging weapon-master gets to wail on them, they'll probably go down. In his eyes, this is a turn-off – heroic characters should be heroic, it should take a serious effort to take them down rather than a couple of lucky shots from a warjack. Warmahordes characters are much more on the equivalent survivability level of a Guard or Eldar character than a Marine or Grey Knight character.

However, unlike VT2, I don't believe this is a bad thing. This makes it much more difficult to play – how close do I dare get to the front lines with my caster? How much focus/fury should I spend this turn, leaving me open to retaliation on my opponent's? What type of models should I put in this list, to support my caster/let my caster support? Casters aren't designed to do everything on their own. It also means that if you're playing a scenario that your army cannot or has a very difficult time winning, you still have a chance of winning the game, no matter what.

For now, this article has gone on long enough, so let's pause, and I'll pick up the rest of the points in my next article.

Comments (43)

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Getting a bit a head of the artical but I really hate point 7 and the idea that epic=big armies.

Big armies clashing can certainly be epic, but it is not required. Epic referes to drama, heroism and scope not the number of meat bags in the force. Traditionally most epic tales focus on individuals or groups with huge battles being part of the set more than anything else.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
Guestivus's avatar

Guestivus · 718 weeks ago

This is pretty accurate. Further, I'd like to that, even if we want to go by the 'huge armies' = epic, most 28mm wargames with a 1:1 ratio continue to remain non-epic. 100 models isn't 'huge' by any stretch of the imagination.
backintheday's avatar

backintheday · 718 weeks ago

solid.
Spot on solid, the only thing I want to comment on is point no.3 It is entirely possible to continue on after the warcaster has been killed, but it needs either a) multi-player matches or b) scenario games where that is not what decides who wins. Otherwise spot on, though both conditions aren't exactly normal either.
Chevynova's avatar

Chevynova · 718 weeks ago

There is a variant in the official Steamroller scenario ruleset that allows for warcaster death to not end the game.
Cant you play larger point games (even with multiple casters etc), this seems to happen on vassal from time to time.

And it reminds me a lot like chess.
2 replies · active 718 weeks ago
You can play larger games with multiple casters - however, Warmahordes is a very pedantic rules system and it's difficult for most people to parse the sheer amount of mechanical interaction going on with that many models doing things to each other. It's not impossible, but it's enough of a challenge that people are not usually motivated to try, and so they don't practice, and so they don't learn.
I will be discussing this more in point 7, but yes, you can. 35/50 point games are most common, but there is a ruleset that PP has developed that's designed for larger games. The base ruleset can work, but it's definitely tricky to balance.
Almost solid, things I wanted to see were:
*Mention each unit/solo has there own special abilities and sometime spells that make each of them more unique. Depending on perspective, one can say that it's difficult to "class" units/solos like in 40k, or that each unit defines it's own "subclass" under shooting, cc, or tanking.
*Redundancy and list balancing isn't as simple or clear cut as in 40k. Generally you won't see the same army or general list more than once or twice, unless your playing the same person over and over.

Also a few notes:
* On number 5, generally each army has either a unit/ability that can indirectly inhibit opponents rolls, and in a few cases acts outside of your turn, gotta love Menoth...
* Tier lists aren't mandatory, but VT2 has caught onto one bad point of Warmahordes. About 25% of war casters can improve there army significantly compared to others, it's just figuring out scaling of tier effects verse cost. Example, eKross, eVlad, Goreshade, etc...
*Games can be played on larger point scales, kinda only seen in local league. At 100+ point levels you can see generally 40-50+ models really easy, and the game last much longer and are really ridiculous and fun.
1 reply · active 718 weeks ago
Good points, I really didn't think as much about some of them. I will discuss the tier lists a bit more, but I don't want to spend too much time on them given my previous article. I will mention the list building aspect and effectiveness/lack thereof of spamming choices though in my next article. I will be talking about larger games in my discussion of point 7.
Nice article, this is what I would expect to read :-)
Nice one. I think you've managed to make the case for assassination quite aptly.

The challenge in Warmahordes is about risk vs. reward - balancing the need to have your warcaster affect the game in order for your other troops to achieve with the need to keep them safe so you don't lose. Some people achieve that through channeling, warcaster attachments and other devices that project their spells from other points (so their caster can stay back and artificially extend the range of their influence). Some people achieve that through taking self-sufficient troops that don't really need caster support and camping their focus for extra armour or fury for transfers - in effect, minimising the need for the caster to influence events. Some people take tougher casters and build their lists around aggressive defence of an active, front-line caster - particularly effective for casters whose feats afford them a turn's grace from reprisals by reducing the options of opponents within their control area.

I wanted to say that to VT2 but the signal to noise ratio around his post was too much for me. He was right about the reduced importance of range and the increased importance of positioning (although he calls it 'simple' and I call it 'challenging', because my spatial reasoning is poor), but I think he did the assassination element of the game something of a disservice.
3 replies · active 718 weeks ago
I am wondering how the juggling act is seen as simple?
The Warcaster needs to live for you to win, but contributes practically nothing be camping out back. The more you risk, the better your chances of winning and losing.
Sounds fun to me.

What am I missing?
No, that's the not-simple part. The (allegedly) simple part is things like managing the comparatively short threat ranges of Warmachine pieces and the placement of models to block attack lanes. I find it a bit fiddly because I lack a key skill.
Typically, if you're staying in the backfield, you're able to spend more focus on spells and jacks, especially with arc nodes and such, and help out despite not being close. If you're close to the front line and camping focus, you're not supporting your army much, but the potential threat your warcaster poses is much higher, like a time bomb, that forces your opponent to try to deal with it.
Why Kal Jericho for every Warmachine post?

Truth is, the epic Alistair Caine model is waaaaaay cooler.

And I gave up on WM/H more than a year ago.
3 replies · active 718 weeks ago
Why was that?

EDIT: Why did you give it up?
Guestivus's avatar

Guestivus · 718 weeks ago

I've come and gone with Warmahordes. I play until it gets too much and I need a (long) break, and then return. Part of the issue for me is because it's so mechanically intricate. Particularly with some factions, the amount of options you need to sort out in your head for your turn, let alone what the enemy can do, requires so much front-loaded thinking power that it gets too much for me. Circle and Cryx in particular, and to a lesser extent if you want to play a really technical game you can with Trolls and Menoth, though I think self-buffs are easier to get a handle on quickly than Circle mobility or Cryx debuffs. Cygnar and Retribution's combined arms style also demands a fair bit of energy up-front.

Which isn't to say that all those factions are universally more complex - you build more and less direct lists with any factions, whereby direct I mean you can know easily which tabletop options to cut out and what your models can go do at any given time.
I was lazy in finding pictures, and thought the similarity was amusing. Plus it reinforced my point that Warmachine characters are Guard level, not SM level.
This is the reason I read this blog. Intelligent, balanced reviews of games/units/tactics. He mentions good points and bad points in equal measure and emphasises the key ones that might significantly affect your experience of it.

No whining, no crying, no bitching. Facts, and opinions backed up by those facts which help direct you to an informed decision.

Please continue to write more articles, this one is excellent!
1 reply · active 718 weeks ago
Agreed. More of this, less of VT2's crap
If VT2's spittle soaked rant had been as consice and polite, maybe he'd have more swayed more readers to his side?

My only hesitation at adding a small WarmaHordes force to my collection is the cost; PP games seem to have developed a reputation as costing less than GW, and although the total model count may be far lower, the price-per-model seems to be a good deal more. $20-30 (US) for a single Warcaster? Really!?

I also dislike the games basic requirement to use their named characters. Deneghra, Hailey, Vlad... I prefer GW's approach of "Generic Space Marine Captain / Imperial Guard Colonel plus a shopping list of wargear?" that way I can make my own character in the game. I guess its a by product of my roleplaying background. But, I'd prefer if my army could be led by MY character.
9 replies · active 718 weeks ago
Most on-foot warcasters are between 6-15 dollars US, not sure what you're thinking there. I normally agree with you about the generic characters, but I do like Warmachine and the fluff surrounding it. Warhams for my own army creation, Warmachine for awesome rules and strategy. It is definitely a valid criticism.
For me the games have always been about stories being played out in my head. Be it generic Captain 291345 (a.k.a Captain Akrast), Vulkan, Mohsar, or Madhammer they've all been the lead protagonist in that story, much like reading a book or watching a movie. They've never felt anymore Mine because I gave them a power sword, bike, or one of the many garbage upgrades that are really non-options. I guess I've never felt limited by having a developed character to control. Wm/h has always felt more story-like to me, partly because I find the frequent, near constant in my area, constant loyalist marine on loyalist marine rather jarring. I'm well over 100 games played now in wm/h and only three circle on orboros fights. While I can appreciate that Space Wolves are not Blood Angels it's still IoM SM vs. IoM SM for the story in my head, the alternative is that pretty much everyone else in the entire 40K universe is a renegade Chapter.
VinsKlortho's avatar

VinsKlortho · 718 weeks ago

I refer to the current metagame as the Great Imperial Civil War.
Crisis_Vyper's avatar

Crisis_Vyper · 718 weeks ago

These two points are perhaps some of, if not the main issues, I have with Warmachine/Hordes.

What happens if your playstyle is a combination of the casters? From seeing some of my friends play, I noticed that the flow of the army is extremely dependent upon how well attuned you are to one of the limited casters in the army. As compared with 40k or fantasy, you can tailor your HQ to your exact specification. In addition, as somewhat of an individual, I do not like to be forced to use something to follow the rest of the herd and the appeal of named characters is not one of the marks of individuality. In addition, 40k is based upon the idea of making armies in an overall sense, rather than one that is based upon what HQ I take. It is much harder to mix and match units in warmachine/hordes than in 40k.

Other than that, the only reason why I am not into Warmachine/Hordes is because of the fact that I never liked Jacks. They look very cartoonish to me. I however do like the Menoth's infantry looks.
Went Awer's avatar

Went Awer · 718 weeks ago

They're only as "named" as your imagination makes them. I like my Vulkan list, I use the Vulkan model, but it's actually my own chapters Chapter Master and he's named What'sho. But then sometimes he is Forgefather Vulkan He'stan because I want to run the list but not my Chapter.

It's really your imaginations limitation not 40K's and not wm/h's.
Well generally each faction has a lot of casters to choose from, so it is just a matter of finding the ones that you like best and learning to use them correctly. Not really that different to 40k or WHFB.

As for not being into Jacks well there is always Hordes.
I suppose I should have mentioned that as another significant difference. In warmachine, you're forced to use specific, named characters, instead of creating your own warcaster. That definitely isn't for everyone. Personally, I like the choices in casters, and the fluff behind most of the characters is well-enough developed that I still feel part of the story and part of the world when I play.
Which casters are $20-30 US and what size are they?

Things like regular Haley or Siege come in around $12 or $13 and they're just regular sized figures. Huge figures like Terminus or Karchev are a different story, but that's because they're huge.
Very solid article. Well thought out, well organized, well written, not full of factual inaccuracies. Great article!
Cool beans. WM has intrigued me for a while, but with some guidance from you vets I may actually jump into it.

On a more personal tangent, which faction has the most potential for wacky high jinks and shenanigans? The kind of stuff that will make your opponent cry OP then laugh when he realizes how ridiculous your play has to be to allow such insanity.
6 replies · active 718 weeks ago
Most likely Cryx. Legion can pull off some wierd stuff, same with Circle, but Cryx kind of takes the cake. I suppose if by "wacky hijinks and shenanigans" you mean "oh, you can't actually do anything to any of my guys," Menoth and Trolls could also fit.
Something like that. I want to have dudes pop up and go kaboom, debuff/reposition enemy units, and just run around causing problems. Kinda like how Tyranids are "supposed" to play ;)
Cryx then. They're excellent at debuffing. The new caster has telekinesis, which moves stuff around, and several models have Shadow Bind, which keeps a model from moving. Scrap Thralls, Bile Thralls, and Bloat Thralls all go kaboom very effectively.
I like the skeleton chicken jacks too, sounds fun. Shenanigans ftw
Yeah, that's Cryx. I knew going into my first Game that they could do that sort of thing, but the ways they all combined together still led to a few "Wait, what?" moments.
Circle has lots of mobility and some denial hijinx, Cryx has a ton of debuffs, and a particular Retribution caster moves the opponent's stuff a lot. Menoth has denial, Trolls have sometimes very shocking survivability across the board.
KingCronan's avatar

KingCronan · 718 weeks ago

Now this is a good article!
The Lieutenant's avatar

The Lieutenant · 718 weeks ago

Uh, yeah, good article all round.
I've just started getting into WM/H, as has Clayman, and Archie's getting back into it round here.
The fact you HAVE to use a named character does annoy me, cause I'm a fluff merchant, but...practically, how is that different from 5th ed 40K? Special characters are good that you're almost handicapping yourself if you don't use them now. Course, that's not always the case, but it is often enough for me to have stopped caring enough for it not to ruin the game.

@chumbalaya: Yeah, Cryx are the kings of debuff, but Circle are kings of what we've termed 'shenanigans'.
Basically, Circle are pro at moving your opponents stuff about, causing him a headache, and they have some hefty buffs/debuffs too.
I liked your post much better than VT2's Tzeen. I think he understands that his style of communication puts off a lot of people but he just doesn't care and that's alright. I tend to ignore his posts and look for the clearer ones like yours.
VinsKlortho's avatar

VinsKlortho · 718 weeks ago

Some people may not like the "regicide" victory condition in most scenarios, but I find that even though it can make you feel robbed when your caster gets cut down that it can also make a game close up to the very last second. I've seen quite a few games where someone just got a good portion of their army vaporized and was able to turn it around for a win due to their opponent overextending.

If you get a really nasty alpha strike off in 40k it can lead quite a bit of guilt as the last 4-6 turns turn into a case of you cleaning up the rest of your opponent's army and your opponent only sticking around so he doesn't give up battle points for conceding. In WM/H, I've seen quite a few underdogs pull out last minute wins when everything looked hopeless. The closest I've seen in 40k is when my girlfriend tied me in a game after I reduced her army down to a single Chaos Marine and a couple of Plague Marines in a 1k point game while I still had 75% of my army with my Dark Eldar in a kill points mission because her army was built to have very few kill points in it.

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