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Monday, July 25, 2011

Warmachine - Is it Right For You? Part II

Continuing on!  In my previous article, I discussed several ways in which Warmachine and Hordes are different from Warhammer 40k and Fantasy. Again, they were:

1. Warmachine is centered around heroic individuals, that lead and support your force.
2. Changing casters can completely change the style of play of an army.
3. When these individuals die, you lose the game, regardless of the condition of the rest of your army.
4. Each model/unit does all phases of activation at a time, rather than army-wide move-shoot-combat.
5. You-go/I-go system, with no dice control outside of your turn.
6. Knowledge of both your army and your opponent's army is vital.
7. Warmachine is a skirmish level game = few miniatures. Not truly epic!
8. Sculpts are, on average, of superior quality (though this is, of course, in the eye of the beholder).
9. Privateer Press is a company that appears to value interaction with their customers.

Last time we got through points 1-3.  One thing I forgot to mention, but is actually a quite important difference, came up in the comments section in the last article, so I want to specifically address it.


You try telling this guy his name's
not Lord Carver, BMMD, Esq., III!
3.5. Warmachine is inherently non-customizable.
Unlike Warhammer, all of your units come with fixed equipment. This unit has swords and shields, that unit extra large fists, a third unit extra-heavy armor and polearms. They have fixed abilities and statlines. At best, you can add a weapon- or unit-attachment, maybe a separate solo that can add additional abilities. No spare bits and pieces to use up extra points, no equipping them in the particular configuration you want best. There's no “make-your-own warjack” rules. There's usually enough variability in the units and models that this isn't a gameplay issue, but there's no fiddling. Conversions are allowed, but typically for tournament play the conversion must be primarily from the original model and the weapons must be in the right places and recognizable, which is a bit limiting.

What's more, your warcaster or warlock is also a fixed person. They have a given name, they have a backstory, they have specific weapons and spells. Again, there is no customization. There's no putting your own names and histories to the model leading your army. If you particularly enjoy personalizing your HQs and customizing your army's equipment, Warmachine may not be for you.

Personally, I've found that there's enough different casters and personalities that I'm able to find something I like. I also have never been hugely into personalizing my HQ models, but that is a personal choice. With the push that GW has been doing to using named characters, I suspect a lot of other people are already used to using specific characters to lead their armies and are thus more used to it.

I will note that one aspect of Warmachine that is customizable is the paint scheme. There's of course an official paint scheme, and it's true that most players stick with it, but really there's no particular need to paint your models in any particular scheme. You want pink warjacks with neon yellow weapons? Sure, I've seen it done. Dark black skinned trolls with snot green claws and teeth? No problems. And no one will yell at you for doing it wrong.

Skorne Paingivers.  Activate these
before your warbeasts to enrage
them, or afterward to remove Fury!
4. Each model/unit does all phases of activation at a time, rather than army-wide move-shoot-combat.
In a typical Warhammer turn, you have three main phases – movement, shooting, and assault (and magic, in Fantasy). All of your models have a chance to move, then all have a chance to shoot, then a chance to assault. This means you can't know how things are going to turn out – everything must be planned at once, and last throughout the turn. You still of course have the opportunity to resolve each unit's actions within a phase individually, which gives some control and allows you to focus-fire and such or divert fire as needed, but the army is typically committed to a general course of action in the movement phase.

In Warmachine, each unit, warjack/warbeast, solo, or caster activates individually, and has a move and an action ability. Individual activation means that you have plan very carefully the order in which you choose to activate your models. Incorrect order means that certain units might not get the buffs you want in time, or a charge lane might be blocked by a model you didn't want to be there. You can also use the order of activation to clear out blocking units, or models that are engaging yours, to open a path for a charge or clear shot.

Honestly, I couldn't say if one method or the other is a better way of doing it. I enjoy both. I will say, however, that you should try to avoid playing both systems in the same day/weekend. Speaking from experience, you'll find yourself activating each of your Dreadnoughts individually or trying to move all of your warmachine units at once!

Trollblood Fell Caller. One Tough SOB!
5. You-go/I-go system, with no dice control outside of your turn.
While Warhammer also has a you-go/I-go system (by which I mean each player does most of their actions on their own turn), the restrictions are much larger in Warmachine. For the most part, Warmachine has no save system. If someone hits you and gets past the armor, you take that damage. If someone shoots you, you take that damage. Essentially, you're just hoping your defense can save your models. There's no fighting back, there's (for the most part) no saves. You have no dice control outside of your own turn. If you don't like not having a chance to affect the game /roll dice on the opponent's turn, then this is not the game for you.

At the same time, many factions have ways to use what your opponent does against them, or for your benefit. The Protectorate of Menoth, for instance, has ways of collecting souls from your dying models that can be used to power spells or warjacks. Some models have specific out-of-turn abilities, usually triggered when the opponent does a particular thing or a model dies, making the fact that you're not specifically rolling dice in an opponent's turn less important. And some models (and most of the Trollblood faction) have a special ability called Tough, which is essentially a 5+ roll not to die when you take enough damage to be killed.

The fact that you can't rely on your models to live through an opponent's turn does add a certain amount of strategy to the game. You attack, knowing that you may indeed lose these models afterward, and thus set up counter-charges and such. It gives a strong advantage to speedy lists, those that can actually hit first and perhaps do serious damage. And it forces you to think carefully about placement of models, rather than simply moving them up the board.

6. Knowledge of both your army and your opponent's army is vital.
In both systems, knowledge of what your models can do is important. Knowing the abilities and limitations of your units and vehicles is vital to building a strong list and making sure you have weaknesses covered. However, in Warhammer, you have a general idea what each player's models can do – infantry fights like infantry, cavalry moves like cavalry, warmachines/tanks fire ordnance, mages/psykers use a specific set of magic spells.

Druids of Orboros.
Excellent at moving your models
around and blocking line of sight!
In Warmachine, knowing what your opponent's models are capable of is extremely vital. It's incredibly easy to be outflanked or repositioned – not knowing that your opponent's models can move an additional 3” at the beginning of the turn means that your carefully planned positioning is all for nothing. Not knowing that a warjack can channel a warcaster's spells means you didn't see an assassination angle. Not knowing that your opponent's unit has an out-of-turn action or special ability can mean your planned order of activation is disturbed irreparably. And not knowing what the enemy warcaster's feat does can flat out cost you the game. If you don't want to go to the trouble of learning about all of your opponent's models, Warmachine is not for you. It's easy to pick stuff up as you go, but for a tournament player not knowing what your opponent is capable of means you're 100% more likely to lose a game.

On the other hand, players have all of their unit's rules right on the table at every game, in the form of the unit cards (or occasionally the army book). If ever you have a question, or simply need to know what a particular unit can do, simply ask to see their card. Most players have no qualms about sharing this information, and the game is an open-list system.

I'll stop this article here for now, and we'll make it a three-part series, with the last few points being discussed in the last series. This actually does make sense, as the last three tend to be matters of opinion in any case. As always, if you have any thoughts or comments about the article, or if there's any points you think I'm leaving out, do mention it!

Comments (26)

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I know a number of guys here play warmachine, and I've just gotten my first Ultramarine force myself. Where can I go to learn to play properly/find out whats good/not good? Or who should I talk to? I probably won't play competitively since my time will be with 40k, but our local gaming group will be playing warmahordes.
1 reply · active 715 weeks ago
VinsKlortho's avatar

VinsKlortho · 715 weeks ago

The Privateer Press forums have some pretty good information. Also Battle College is usually very good for getting info on individual units, jacks, casters, etc.
Also btw, great set of articles so far. I think this is a fairly balanced comparison of the game systems. Probably my biggest gripe is 3.5 = I like being able to customise all my units. But given I'm doing Cygnar, I do kind of have those options.. take this mech for this gun, or this for this weapon etc. And I haven't even looked at any merc units yet.
Another good article. My personal take is that 3.5 is largely irrelevant in the face of 5th Ed armies, where people normally take a SC or a Librarian for their HQ. The days of having a captain called "Johnny Bravo" with Relic Blade, Combi-Plasma, Storm Shield and Jump Pack seem to be over for the time being. For point 5 I would point out that the vast majority of board games allow very little interaction outside your own turn, but no-one criticises Monopoly or Chess for that.
7 replies · active 715 weeks ago
razcalking's avatar

razcalking · 715 weeks ago

No one criticizes Monopoly or Chess, but no one spends hundreds of dollars to play them either.
Went Awer's avatar

Went Awer · 715 weeks ago

If their playing chess competitively and genuinely focused on progressing up the rating ladder they are.
Not to true. Manopoly is frequently critisized for being a bad game, made worse by a gazillion bad house rules.
I didn't say it wasn't a bad game, I said that not doing anything in your opponents turn apart from shouting "RENT!!!" isn't generally considered its biggest failing.
Auretious Taak's avatar

Auretious Taak · 715 weeks ago

Technically though considering chess has been around for thousands of years, and spread across the face of the world in times where travel took years as opposed to days, and consider the effect it has had on a worldly scale and I think we can safely say that Chess shits all over 40k and warmachine without equal.
VinsKlortho's avatar

VinsKlortho · 715 weeks ago

Certain lists have more meaningful interaction outside your opponent's turn. Compare Vayl's Dark Sentinel to rolling armor saves.
sonicReducer's avatar

sonicReducer · 715 weeks ago

I've also heard friends moaning about no customization of characters - right before they roll out another cookie-cutter Space Marine Captain with no name or background, and likely not painted. If anything I find Warmachine characters more characterful - but I can understand that some people still want the option of loading them out how they like. Each faction will usually have a character that fits what they want to use anyway (assassination / army buff / enemy debuff / attrition / etc)
I've also been caught out moving all my troops without realising I need to finish everything with that unit before I go on to the next - too used to 40K I guess XD
I really enjoy warmachine, I spent a long time collecting WHFB and 40K, but I've found WM to just fit what I want from a game much more
1 reply · active 715 weeks ago
I have played 40K for awhile, and am happy with the game, but am branching out into WM to play Retribution.

Perhaps this is the slant people need to take with having fixed units to take:
We all know the special characters in 40K are fixed, right? But we have infinite variability with units and regular characters, or quite a bit anyway.

But there are usually a few good bang-for-buck and/or niche rolls that you build the character/unit for anyway, thereby reducing that theoretical variability into a few choices. For example, a Captain on bike with Relic blade and Storm shield. This is pretty common and although you 'chose' that load-out, you practically use it all the time. Is that so different from a special character in 40K, or a Warcaster?

Whilst calling dude X 'Rahn' instead of 'the Warcaster' is a little odd to me, people who use special characters in 40K use that familiar name for 'Vulkan' or 'Shrike', etc. anyway.

We want to feel like we have the freedom to chose in life, and generally we do in the West, anyway. But most of the time our choices are pretty much locked in and we go to work automatically, etc. The illusion of choice quickly narrows once we make the first choice.
This is just like using Drop Pods in 40K. It seems like you have endless choices, but as soon as you position that Pod, that 'endless' becomes quite finite.
4 and 6 are the points that are giving me the most trouble so far as a starting player, shifting over from 40K. In my few Games so far, I've frequently found myself blocking my own charge lanes or causing other problems with my activation order.

6 hasn't quite come up yet, since I've mostly just played against my FLGS owner's Cryx Army, and he runs a relatively straightforward force for teaching games, but it's part of why I haven't made it over for an open game night or tournament yet. I think a fair bit of that nervousness comes from switching over from 40K as well: Even though folks say I've got a decent grasp on the game, it's nothing compared to how well I understand 40K, and I'm still at the point where even when I read the various special Rules, I often still miss out on the implications of what that's actually going to mean on the table.

So overall: I like the game so far, but picking it up after years of 40K leads to some awkwardness, at least part of which would probably be avoided if I were starting completely from scratch.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
People get proactive-interference happening from old editions of any game too.
ie, dudes were making mistakes in how to play 5th ed. due to memeories of how 4th ed. was played coming up.

So that is not just a 'switching game systems' thing :)
Guestivus's avatar

Guestivus · 715 weeks ago

5 is a irrelevant anyway. Generating random numbers on your opponent's turn is NOT interaction. At best, Warhams has wound allocation in which you can make meaningful decisions. That's really about it. Throwing dice might feel like you're doing something, and sure, I'll grant you're doing something. But you're not doing anything that you have any meaningful control over.
4 replies · active 715 weeks ago
Throwing dice amuses me to do.
Granted, it may be amusing, but the assault phase comes at the end of the opponent's turn anyway. So you might as well think of it as you assault/move/shoot/assault and in between those two assault phases you make some armour saves as your opponent shoots at you while you try not to fall asleep.

But yes. Maybe irrelevant was too strong a word. Obviously some enjoy throwing cubes around. I still think it's blown up into this huge thing that it isn't. Alternate activation games are interactive. Mass IGOUGO games are pretty minimal on the interaction.
Well, Warhammer also lets your models fight on the opponent's turn. I suppose it's also just "throwing dice," but having any chance to affect the outcome of the game beyond your own turn is something that is in its own way interaction.
It's like breathing or flinching or having your leg kick out when the doctor taps it with that tappy hammer thing.
Mathematically it can easily be factored out by making the attack slightly less killy, or in WM, giving a higher defence value at the cost of rolling for a save.

It is like hooting and hollaring at the TV screen when you team is playing. Yeah it feels good when your guys do something, but actually doesn't affect the game. Making that saving throw is like cheering and urging on your team just prior to their success. It feels nice, and feels like you are there, but really, nothing like that exists/happened. How about when you fail the save or you are urging your team to success and they fail? Same, same.
Digilante's avatar

Digilante · 715 weeks ago

The thing I still have trouble with in WM is number 6 (though I've only been playing for a month or two). It seems like every game I've played has come down to "oh, I didn't know they could do that, well GG." Sure you can read your opponent's cards, but that's a lot of new infomration to keep in mind, and the real power comes from stacking buffs and using units in combinations that are not readily apparent from their cards.

I feel like in general WM is less forgiving than Warhams or even Hordes, at least when you're fist starting out.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
It's definitely got a steeper learning curve simply from the amount of mechanical info that's on the table. That's not to say it's better or worse, there's just more going on at once.
It's also worth mentioning that for 5 if you are playing in tourneys, or even in my friendlies, you are typically playing timed turns so it's not like you are sitting around for 20-30 minutes while your opponent moves all their models. Things happen fast in this game. It works out that I can get 2-3 games in the amount of time of a single 40k game that has tipped me that way.
3 replies · active 715 weeks ago
Definitely in tournaments, but rarely in friendly games will I play timed games (unless it's specifically preparing for tournaments). I think Archnomad's going to do a post on tournament play and address the timed turns. This also does influence troop selection, and I may talk about this in the third part of the article.
What factions do you and Archy play?
No idea about Archnomad. I play Menoth mainly (which is part of the reason many of my examples have been drawn from them), and would love to start up an eSkarre list, as well as probably Circle and Trolls had I the money and time. Unfortunately, I like the Troll beasts best, and they seem to play better with more infantry, while I like Circle infantry, and they seem to play better with more beasts.

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