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Tuesday, August 16, 2011

'Ard Boyz Prelim Results - Some Statistics



I noticed a neat graph over at Danny Internet's Bald and Screaming (he assures me the malaware is gone) and am going to nick it for a moment going to get more data and expand it. I used the same initial source Danny used, the Dakka forums, as well as blogs and friends over in the States. Yes, I cross-checked data/stores to make sure I wasn't counting things twice. Now, as we recall using tournaments as proof of an army doing well has a lot of issues. Messanger of Death has started looking at these for me but suffice to say there are just too many variables one cannot account for. This makes determining the validity of tournament results very difficult. Not only do we not always have all the match-up data but we don't always know exact army lists, terrain (and what armies were matched up on what terrain), dice, player ability, personal factors such as fatigue, etc. TO rulings outside of the ruleset (they happen), number of people using certain armies, not to mention soft scores, battle points and so on.

Now this graph is only based on a certain sample of 'Ard Boyz results and does not have the number of total armies represented. For all we know only seven Tau players could have showed up and all of them placed. Unlikely but a statistical possibility. We can make some assumptions though. For example:

  1. Grey Knights very likely had the highest number of participants - flavor of the month and all that. If not the highest certainly one of the highest.
  2. 5th edition books are more likely to have higher number of players - fit the new ruleset better, new models, rules, etc.
  3. Older books very likely had less participants due to older rules, less models, more expensive armies (i.e. all metal), etc.
These are of course assumptions so let's look at both graphs. 

Kirby's graph!

Danny Internet's graph

I've included both my (118 sample locations) and Danny's (87 sample locations) graphs - his of course looks prettier. So what do we see?

  1. Grey Knights have an edge on everyone else. I would put this down to more people playing them, not everyone is used to them and thus could be beaten by the unknown army factor and that they are a good army. Would I say they are the best and worthy of smashing everyone in these rankings? No and I think these factors contribute to their higher placing total.
  2. If we assume Grey Knights got several extra placings from being new, there appears to be a clear divide between having a good codex and a not so good codex. From Space Wolves across to Imperial Guard there is no significant difference in terms of placings from one book to the next. This includes, Space Wolves, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Space Marines, Imperial Guard.
  3. We can further this by saying there appears to be three 'tiers' - good armies, okay armies and crap armies. I would hesitate towards this though as some armies I would consider good, such as Black Templars and Tau, are more likely to be influenced by external factors - i.e. older book so less players, 2500 points is harder for older books, etc. That being said, it appears that Orks, Eldar, Tyranids and Dark Angels are 'middle of the run' armies who probably do well against the worse books but are on the back foot versus the good books.
  4. There is comparability between the two graphs. Only Black Templars move up in terms of placings compared to other armies (jumping Tau and CSM) and there does seem to be a group of "better" armies. In my graph with more samples, Space Wolves clears the pack just a little bit more and Orks fall behind in that initial good army bunch. Those 5th edition armies, excluding Tyranids, all seem to do relatively well compared to each other across graphs.
  5. Some armies appear to be much worse than others. We know Tau, Black Templars and Immo-spam Witchunters are all pretty good but don't appear to place well in these rankings. Tau suffer at 2500 as we know which is a good explanation for why they don't place highly here and the rest of the low-end result armies you don't actually see often and when played, are often by "old school" types who are more into backstory than gaming (this is a generalisation). We can tentatively conclude though that many of these books suffer against their 5th edition brethren even if they do have some perks.
Now these results are hard to actually extract information from in terms of statistical validity - just look at the list of problems mentioned in the first paragraph. It does hint towards some things though.
  1. 5th edition is actually pretty damn good in terms of balance and Games Workshop has done a very good job with their army releases in terms of external balance.
  2. Tyranids were the 5th edition flop.
  3. 5th edition books > 4th edition books. This we already knew so we have some concurrent validity going on here.
  4. Minimal evidence of codex creep. I know people love to say that each new codex is the best and whilst Grey Knights have significantly more placings than the other armies, this result is more than likely from a higher number of participants. If we look past Grey Knights however, we appear to see clumping rather than a linear progression of armies based loosely on release date indicating as in point 1, that the books in 5th edition are quite comparable to each other.
We cannot of course use this data as basis for this but it is concurrent with what a lot of us have been saying for a while - 5th edition and the books they produce are quite balanced. This is at a points level uncommonly seen in normal play (2500 points) with many of the initial factors discussed unaccounted for (specifically number of army entrants and lists) so we need to look at these with conclusions with pretty severe scepticism. I certainly wouldn't suggest anyone use them to say army A or B is worse/better than the other or that Army A or B is good/bad. Rather, they show us a potential level of balance in 5th edition where most 4th edition books (including Orks and Daemons) suffer.
    All in all some interesting data with the Semis hopefully offering more. Again though, it's not going to give a definitive answer on anything particularly when we take the 2500 points level, varying missions and all the other factors initially outlined into play. 

    Comments (33)

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    NChomsky3d's avatar

    NChomsky3d · 710 weeks ago

    Where I played (Somerville, MA) and where most everyone else played (Cambridge, MA), there was a pretty good spread. GK, Blood Angels and Eldar in Somerville and CSM, GK and a tie between GK and Black Templars in Cambridge. I think GK had a bit of a leg up for the reasons you described, and also because of the elite nature of the codex we can bring more stuff to bear, while other codices might have to start putting points in less efficient options.
    1 reply · active 710 weeks ago
    Interesting hypothesis, 3dChomsky. The 'Elite' idea does actually have merit, and considering the breadth of the codex, it might actually be one of the better ones at high and low points, due to Coteaz.
    Karnstein's avatar

    Karnstein · 710 weeks ago

    1. I prefer your chart kirby...less chart junk. Blame it on my U course of "information visualization", but all the grey background and the color fading effect doesn't net me more information. Just had to say that. ^^

    2. Are those the participation numbers or only the amount of players who cleared the preliminaries? If that's just the number of people who qualified for the next round, it isn't telling us much. But that was kind of your point anyway.

    What I would like to see is data on how many people from the choosen samples attended with army A, B and C and how many managed to make the cut. Knowing both the numbers of players with Space Marines (pick your flavor of choice) attending and making the cut tells us not only how popular that codex is, but also if the popularity stems from raw power or from other factors like being an iconic choice or cheap to collect thanks to being part of the AoBR box.
    1 reply · active 710 weeks ago
    point number 2 all the way - glad someone noticed my point ^^.

    I'd love to have the overall numbers of participants but am unlikely to get them and as was pointed out, some areas only had a few players. You turned up - you got through for example and this would skew the sample. All this really was, was an exercise of pure interest with some tentative extrapolation. NOVA/BFS should reveal better results but I wouldn't be surprised to see something similar to these but with GK having less of an impact.
    Roland Durendal's avatar

    Roland Durendal · 710 weeks ago

    I know Tyranid Todd in my gaming group took 1st at Treefort Games in GA during round 1 this year. 'Nids are competitive, it's just finding the build that works and gets the most out of it.
    1 reply · active 710 weeks ago
    glad to hear Tyranids did well there, what list was he using?
    The chart only covers placing and not the number of entrants. If only 2 people even dared show with necrons but then both placed they'd have a 100% success rate making it a powerful codex. likewise, if there were 200 grey knight entries and only 42 placed...

    tyranids are definately the ginger step child here, poison DE and instant kill GK are just too mean on their codex. GW needs to bring back eternal warrior for synapse and make venomthropes and pyrovores IC.
    1 reply · active 710 weeks ago
    Decent use of SitW makes Force weapons cry. Ld8 on 3d6 anyone? Come on guys, I'll give you GREAT odds!

    Now, poison sucks in some cases, but the main thing for Nids is that GKs vehicles can negate shaken/stunned.
    It's interesting to see where you draw the divide between armies. Couple of points:

    - You say GKs are artificially inflated due to larger numbers of players. Yes, they were the latest codex, but I think you have to consider that this might be a factor for Space Marines as well (there are always dozens of space marine players) and to a certain extent Wolves and IG (near-universally accepted as the two top-tier armies - and therefore have more followers - until GKs was released). Without evidence to back it up, it's hard to say if the reason you gave for the ranking is actually the real reason

    - You divide Orks into the "Sub-5th" catagory, but they are on par with IG in the graph Danny provides, and only lag behind IG by 5 placements in your own data. Is this personal bias coming into play of the labelling of Orks, or do you think a 5-place difference is enough to relegate them to the next tier down? Especially considering they have a 9 placement lead over the next 'dex below them? If I was to create tiers based purely off your graphs (the only evidence presented) then I'd have to label the most recent 4 books as "top tier" with Orks, IG, and SM being second tier, and everything else a distant third.
    3 replies · active 710 weeks ago
    1) absolutely but they do all have one thing in common - being released in 5th edition which is also a plausible cause. We cannot tell for sure and likely will never be able to, but that would be my ultimate hypothesis and if every time we run stats like this the new army was at the forefront with the other 5th ed army books plateauing behind (including hopefully, multiple xenos books), it's quite plausible.

    2) As I said to BroLo, I didn't really cover this and I apologise. Based a means comparison, Orks were actually different from all the 5th ed books averaged (GK being considered an outlier and replaced with SW numbers+1) and Eldar/Nids/DA. If I just compared Orks to IG/SM, they are part of the same group however in both graphs. I added some more data I got today and they jumped back up to 'part of the 5th ed' group with the original analysis. But yes, there would be some author bias there based upon the analysis I did for my data and for that, I apologise ^^.
    1. I would love to see more data being collected that helped confirm or reject that hypothesis (New book = More FOTM players at Tournies) because although it seems reasonable on the face of it, there are also a lot of other factors which might have equal weight (such as people not being familiar with special rules, weapon stats, psychic powers and therefore not knowing how to counter them appropriately).

    2. Hey, you caught it, acknowledged it, and rectified it. It's what scientists do. ;)
    1) absolutely - I feel the "have not learned the army enough" factor gets a lot of easy wins against casual gamers with new armies.

    2) <3
    4 out of 26 Orks dropped (15,4%)
    9 out of 31 IGs dropped (29%)
    This shows that orks fall behind IG ?

    16 out of 58 GKs dropped (27,6%)
    2 out of 16 Nids dropped (12,5%)
    This shows that "Tyranids were the 5th edition flop" and GKs got an edge from "codex creep"?

    I seem to not understand either the graphs or your interpretation...
    3 replies · active 710 weeks ago
    You sure you're reading it right? Both those graphs are the same thing, one just uses a larger pool of info.

    As to why Orks arn't considered 1st Tier? *facepalm* Are we really still debating this?
    "Both those graphs are the same thing, one just uses a larger pool of info."

    Then it's graphs I've misread
    Lack of AP 1 (no melta), lots of bad choices. It's a 4e dex, man.

    Doesn't mean a decent general can't pull out a win, look at those Daemons players.
    We're debating this because until something is proven with empirical evidence, it remains "opinion" and not "fact"... and opinion can be debated as long as you care to do so. :)
    Nurglitch's avatar

    Nurglitch · 710 weeks ago

    So despite the problems with drawing any conclusion from the data, you're going to anyways? Good work.
    Kirby, I'm normally a big fan of the site, but this article sorta cheeses me off. I know what you're attempting to do, but without the number of people who entered in each army, you give the impression that you fail statistics forever. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouFailStatisticsForever)
    It's possible that Tyranids got low numbers because fewer people were taking them. It's possible that Orks did well because LOTS of people took them (and whether or not they ARE a good army, they appear to be using this data). Witch-hunters probably would have a lot more people playing them if they weren't ENTIRELY metal.
    Without at least those numbers, this is essentially an exercise in intellectual wankery, and I respect you too much as a blogger not to call you on it.
    1 reply · active 710 weeks ago
    Absolutely which was mentioned but it does give us some information - better than and I certainly wouldn't use this data to drawn conclusions from it. As someone who enjoys stats it was fun to run and when we do get some good data (like from NOVA), we have a potential comparison sample at which to look at.
    Another problem with these results would be the local tournament size. I believe top 3 move on to Semi's, correct? Well, my local store only had 8 people play. I'm sure others had less. If four people show and two are Tau players, at least one will move on. I think the Semifinal results will be more telling, but still just an extrapolation.

    But as the saying goes: "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics". You can make statistics say whatever you want, depending on how spin it.
    Agree with karnstein above, your graph is significantly better. If you make more charts, please keep it simple, high contrast, and dear god no gradients! [/takes off data visualization hat]

    So these are the results for qualifying tournaments for 'ard boyz? As several folks have said, the more useful information is to now the win rate for each army given the number of players. I assume that is unknowable at this point. But the best thing to do might be to look at stats once the actual tournament comes out.

    Also, you should ask MVB if you can get your hands on the NOVA army lists after next week's tournament. It would take a little effort (reviewing 256 lists), but you could probably break them down into a few archetypical categories for each army (SM biker, MSU, vulcan, drop pod, etc.) and get some really neat stats.
    1 reply · active 710 weeks ago
    Grabbing the army lists, breaking them down using that math DLRPG DRPG DMS DMCC thing, and how they each did win/loss wise would be a sweet ass data mine.
    SW OP, totally called it.

    40k is over guys.
    3 replies · active 710 weeks ago
    GAME OVER MAN! GAME OVER!
    Looks like we'll have to cleanse the SW taint with Orbital Bombardment. Just to be sure.
    Warboss Stalin's avatar

    Warboss Stalin · 710 weeks ago

    in a way you're right...the new fluff will be in the 42nd millenium for 6th ed.
    I hate this sort of analysis Kirbs... sorry... gotta say it. You know as well as I do that it means next to nothing.

    The funniest part... Orks get lumped in the 'middle tier' when they are equal to IG in one graph and closer to IG than Eldar in the other one. So not only is the data useless... but there is author bias. Come on Pinky... don't waste your time.
    1 reply · active 710 weeks ago
    Me too but I'm bored *cries*. And these type of stats, when you take them with a serious grain of salt, can give you some info - you just wouldn't reference it as reliable.

    With regards to Orks - in my 1st graph they actually sat between the 5th edition armies and Tyranids/Eldar with .01 p-value. This was likely in terms of averaging all the 5th edition armies (dropping GK down to SW numbers) as there wasn't a significant difference between IG and Orks. I got 20ish more samples and they jumped back into the 5th edition group. I didn't really give them the justice they deserved though so you have my apologies :P.
    Scottimus Prime's avatar

    Scottimus Prime · 710 weeks ago

    True to the point that the data is largely useless without number of participants, but the thing that gets me more is the shameless assertion that GK's are "more than likely" placed the highest purely because they likely had more participants. I know in my greater area GK's weren't even in the top three for highest number of participants(Blood Angels represented nearly 40% of all armies, SW's and Vanilla Marines each had about 15% of the share) and thats a sample size of about 250 gamers.

    I can't speak for the area's that were graphed of course, but f you just look at the data we have in the larger sample size we see the GK's had a 15 point lead on the next army(SW's, who we all know are at least a good army). Thats a 35% gain on them which your attributing mostly to there being more GK's, which would mean there would have to be at least 35% more GK's to validate. A more interesting one would have to be how GK's matched up against BA and DE, who the GK's had a 21 point lead on(57%). I already stated that in my area BA's were swarming but I would be shocked to find that the GK's in the sample actually outnumbered the BA players by that big a margin as to explain the disparity in placings, though the stat is probably more realistic when we look at DE.

    I think the underlying cause is probably something more insidious that many have speculated on for a few months now and have been usually chastised for. That is the conclusion that just as Tyranids are the flop of 5th who sometimes lose games that they should have won due to slight underpowering/overcosting the GK's are the OTT of 5th, as they are likely winning games that a balanced army would have lost or drawn purely by being better/undercosted when compared to others. Not that i'd imagine most GK players will lose any sleep over it, but this conclusion is surely no more far fetched than the idea that GK's just outnumbered everyone else by a wide margin. I know the facts tell a different story in my area at the least.
    2 replies · active 710 weeks ago
    I think the part of the reason GK did so well is that they are new and people don't know how to face them yet, but when your codex's weakness is high priced units playing at 2500 pts isn't a bad thing. 'Ard boyz results are in mind fairly worthless because a lot of the older books weren't designed to play a 2500 point game.
    Whilst we can certainly make no assertations on which army was played the most, I would be very surprised if Grey Knights over the whole sample weren't right up there. Add in what althathir talks about below, particularly with a very casual competitive event like Árd Boyz, and a lot of people probably went WHAT!? towards things like Paladins. I feel it's a fair assumption to make that Grey Knights got a boost from being new - whether that boost completely accounts for the significant difference in placings compared to the other 5th edition armies + Orks is to be seen.
    If we could just get a double bar graph with numbers entered, this would be so much more usefull

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