
I noticed a neat graph over at Danny Internet's Bald and Screaming (he assures me the malaware is gone) and am
Now this graph is only based on a certain sample of 'Ard Boyz results and does not have the number of total armies represented. For all we know only seven Tau players could have showed up and all of them placed. Unlikely but a statistical possibility. We can make some assumptions though. For example:
- Grey Knights very likely had the highest number of participants - flavor of the month and all that. If not the highest certainly one of the highest.
- 5th edition books are more likely to have higher number of players - fit the new ruleset better, new models, rules, etc.
- Older books very likely had less participants due to older rules, less models, more expensive armies (i.e. all metal), etc.
These are of course assumptions so let's look at both graphs.
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Kirby's graph! |
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Danny Internet's graph |
I've included both my (118 sample locations) and Danny's (87 sample locations) graphs - his of course looks prettier. So what do we see?
- Grey Knights have an edge on everyone else. I would put this down to more people playing them, not everyone is used to them and thus could be beaten by the unknown army factor and that they are a good army. Would I say they are the best and worthy of smashing everyone in these rankings? No and I think these factors contribute to their higher placing total.
- If we assume Grey Knights got several extra placings from being new, there appears to be a clear divide between having a good codex and a not so good codex. From Space Wolves across to Imperial Guard there is no significant difference in terms of placings from one book to the next. This includes, Space Wolves, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Space Marines, Imperial Guard.
- We can further this by saying there appears to be three 'tiers' - good armies, okay armies and crap armies. I would hesitate towards this though as some armies I would consider good, such as Black Templars and Tau, are more likely to be influenced by external factors - i.e. older book so less players, 2500 points is harder for older books, etc. That being said, it appears that Orks, Eldar, Tyranids and Dark Angels are 'middle of the run' armies who probably do well against the worse books but are on the back foot versus the good books.
- There is comparability between the two graphs. Only Black Templars move up in terms of placings compared to other armies (jumping Tau and CSM) and there does seem to be a group of "better" armies. In my graph with more samples, Space Wolves clears the pack just a little bit more and Orks fall behind in that initial good army bunch. Those 5th edition armies, excluding Tyranids, all seem to do relatively well compared to each other across graphs.
- Some armies appear to be much worse than others. We know Tau, Black Templars and Immo-spam Witchunters are all pretty good but don't appear to place well in these rankings. Tau suffer at 2500 as we know which is a good explanation for why they don't place highly here and the rest of the low-end result armies you don't actually see often and when played, are often by "old school" types who are more into backstory than gaming (this is a generalisation). We can tentatively conclude though that many of these books suffer against their 5th edition brethren even if they do have some perks.
Now these results are hard to actually extract information from in terms of statistical validity - just look at the list of problems mentioned in the first paragraph. It does hint towards some things though.
- 5th edition is actually pretty damn good in terms of balance and Games Workshop has done a very good job with their army releases in terms of external balance.
- Tyranids were the 5th edition flop.
- 5th edition books > 4th edition books. This we already knew so we have some concurrent validity going on here.
- Minimal evidence of codex creep. I know people love to say that each new codex is the best and whilst Grey Knights have significantly more placings than the other armies, this result is more than likely from a higher number of participants. If we look past Grey Knights however, we appear to see clumping rather than a linear progression of armies based loosely on release date indicating as in point 1, that the books in 5th edition are quite comparable to each other.
We cannot of course use this data as basis for this but it is concurrent with what a lot of us have been saying for a while - 5th edition and the books they produce are quite balanced. This is at a points level uncommonly seen in normal play (2500 points) with many of the initial factors discussed unaccounted for (specifically number of army entrants and lists) so we need to look at these with conclusions with pretty severe scepticism. I certainly wouldn't suggest anyone use them to say army A or B is worse/better than the other or that Army A or B is good/bad. Rather, they show us a potential level of balance in 5th edition where most 4th edition books (including Orks and Daemons) suffer.
All in all some interesting data with the Semis hopefully offering more. Again though, it's not going to give a definitive answer on anything particularly when we take the 2500 points level, varying missions and all the other factors initially outlined into play.
NChomsky3d · 710 weeks ago
SageoftheTimes 77p · 710 weeks ago
Karnstein · 710 weeks ago
2. Are those the participation numbers or only the amount of players who cleared the preliminaries? If that's just the number of people who qualified for the next round, it isn't telling us much. But that was kind of your point anyway.
What I would like to see is data on how many people from the choosen samples attended with army A, B and C and how many managed to make the cut. Knowing both the numbers of players with Space Marines (pick your flavor of choice) attending and making the cut tells us not only how popular that codex is, but also if the popularity stems from raw power or from other factors like being an iconic choice or cheap to collect thanks to being part of the AoBR box.
Kirby 118p · 710 weeks ago
I'd love to have the overall numbers of participants but am unlikely to get them and as was pointed out, some areas only had a few players. You turned up - you got through for example and this would skew the sample. All this really was, was an exercise of pure interest with some tentative extrapolation. NOVA/BFS should reveal better results but I wouldn't be surprised to see something similar to these but with GK having less of an impact.
Roland Durendal · 710 weeks ago
Cloudhammer 57p · 710 weeks ago
Yan · 710 weeks ago
tyranids are definately the ginger step child here, poison DE and instant kill GK are just too mean on their codex. GW needs to bring back eternal warrior for synapse and make venomthropes and pyrovores IC.
SageoftheTimes 77p · 710 weeks ago
Now, poison sucks in some cases, but the main thing for Nids is that GKs vehicles can negate shaken/stunned.
Sethis · 710 weeks ago
- You say GKs are artificially inflated due to larger numbers of players. Yes, they were the latest codex, but I think you have to consider that this might be a factor for Space Marines as well (there are always dozens of space marine players) and to a certain extent Wolves and IG (near-universally accepted as the two top-tier armies - and therefore have more followers - until GKs was released). Without evidence to back it up, it's hard to say if the reason you gave for the ranking is actually the real reason
- You divide Orks into the "Sub-5th" catagory, but they are on par with IG in the graph Danny provides, and only lag behind IG by 5 placements in your own data. Is this personal bias coming into play of the labelling of Orks, or do you think a 5-place difference is enough to relegate them to the next tier down? Especially considering they have a 9 placement lead over the next 'dex below them? If I was to create tiers based purely off your graphs (the only evidence presented) then I'd have to label the most recent 4 books as "top tier" with Orks, IG, and SM being second tier, and everything else a distant third.
Kirby 118p · 710 weeks ago
2) As I said to BroLo, I didn't really cover this and I apologise. Based a means comparison, Orks were actually different from all the 5th ed books averaged (GK being considered an outlier and replaced with SW numbers+1) and Eldar/Nids/DA. If I just compared Orks to IG/SM, they are part of the same group however in both graphs. I added some more data I got today and they jumped back up to 'part of the 5th ed' group with the original analysis. But yes, there would be some author bias there based upon the analysis I did for my data and for that, I apologise ^^.
Sethis · 710 weeks ago
2. Hey, you caught it, acknowledged it, and rectified it. It's what scientists do. ;)
Kirby 118p · 710 weeks ago
2) <3
lehcyfer 50p · 710 weeks ago
9 out of 31 IGs dropped (29%)
This shows that orks fall behind IG ?
16 out of 58 GKs dropped (27,6%)
2 out of 16 Nids dropped (12,5%)
This shows that "Tyranids were the 5th edition flop" and GKs got an edge from "codex creep"?
I seem to not understand either the graphs or your interpretation...
Malkov · 710 weeks ago
As to why Orks arn't considered 1st Tier? *facepalm* Are we really still debating this?
lehcyfer 50p · 710 weeks ago
Then it's graphs I've misread
SageoftheTimes 77p · 710 weeks ago
Doesn't mean a decent general can't pull out a win, look at those Daemons players.
Sethis · 710 weeks ago
Nurglitch · 710 weeks ago
Abakus · 710 weeks ago
It's possible that Tyranids got low numbers because fewer people were taking them. It's possible that Orks did well because LOTS of people took them (and whether or not they ARE a good army, they appear to be using this data). Witch-hunters probably would have a lot more people playing them if they weren't ENTIRELY metal.
Without at least those numbers, this is essentially an exercise in intellectual wankery, and I respect you too much as a blogger not to call you on it.
Kirby 118p · 710 weeks ago
Gramps · 710 weeks ago
But as the saying goes: "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics". You can make statistics say whatever you want, depending on how spin it.
Kolath · 710 weeks ago
So these are the results for qualifying tournaments for 'ard boyz? As several folks have said, the more useful information is to now the win rate for each army given the number of players. I assume that is unknowable at this point. But the best thing to do might be to look at stats once the actual tournament comes out.
Also, you should ask MVB if you can get your hands on the NOVA army lists after next week's tournament. It would take a little effort (reviewing 256 lists), but you could probably break them down into a few archetypical categories for each army (SM biker, MSU, vulcan, drop pod, etc.) and get some really neat stats.
Random · 710 weeks ago
chumbalaya 79p · 710 weeks ago
40k is over guys.
Cloudhammer 57p · 710 weeks ago
blacksly · 710 weeks ago
Warboss Stalin · 710 weeks ago
Bro_Lo 82p · 710 weeks ago
The funniest part... Orks get lumped in the 'middle tier' when they are equal to IG in one graph and closer to IG than Eldar in the other one. So not only is the data useless... but there is author bias. Come on Pinky... don't waste your time.
Kirby 118p · 710 weeks ago
With regards to Orks - in my 1st graph they actually sat between the 5th edition armies and Tyranids/Eldar with .01 p-value. This was likely in terms of averaging all the 5th edition armies (dropping GK down to SW numbers) as there wasn't a significant difference between IG and Orks. I got 20ish more samples and they jumped back into the 5th edition group. I didn't really give them the justice they deserved though so you have my apologies :P.
Scottimus Prime · 710 weeks ago
I can't speak for the area's that were graphed of course, but f you just look at the data we have in the larger sample size we see the GK's had a 15 point lead on the next army(SW's, who we all know are at least a good army). Thats a 35% gain on them which your attributing mostly to there being more GK's, which would mean there would have to be at least 35% more GK's to validate. A more interesting one would have to be how GK's matched up against BA and DE, who the GK's had a 21 point lead on(57%). I already stated that in my area BA's were swarming but I would be shocked to find that the GK's in the sample actually outnumbered the BA players by that big a margin as to explain the disparity in placings, though the stat is probably more realistic when we look at DE.
I think the underlying cause is probably something more insidious that many have speculated on for a few months now and have been usually chastised for. That is the conclusion that just as Tyranids are the flop of 5th who sometimes lose games that they should have won due to slight underpowering/overcosting the GK's are the OTT of 5th, as they are likely winning games that a balanced army would have lost or drawn purely by being better/undercosted when compared to others. Not that i'd imagine most GK players will lose any sleep over it, but this conclusion is surely no more far fetched than the idea that GK's just outnumbered everyone else by a wide margin. I know the facts tell a different story in my area at the least.
althathir · 710 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 710 weeks ago
Lobukia · 710 weeks ago