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Tuesday, August 23, 2011

Email in: Metagame



"First, long time fan of the blog. It's helped me surprise a few people with my nids and my wife keeps reading the space wolf posts and giggling about what she's going to do to people.

I'm a relatively new player with a background in competitive magic the gathering. I plan on working my way into tournament play in the states, but my job forced me to take a bit of a break in playing. Here are some thoughts I've had on the nature of the 40k metagame. It started out as an email to my wife that grew a bit out of control. I'd love to have your feedback on it.

I see a lot of talk online about the metagame in 40k. The two most common arguments are 1) is there a metagame in 40k? and 2) how should it effect how I build my list/play the game.

To start off, we will discuss what metagame is. The term refers to those things that change how you play the game outside of the game its self, particularly in reference to list building and tournaments. The most comon example of metagame is tournament Magic the Gathering.

Because of the way competative MtG is set up, it is possible for a player to have a very good idea of what decks he will be facing and plan accordingly. This most commonly takes a form something like "Red burn is dominant, I expect 60% of what I see to be burn decks, I'll adjust my deck so that it beats burn, at the cost of making it weaker vs everything else." The player uses his knowledge of what he expects to see to adjust his deck and so takes advantage of the metagame."


I'll chuck in here that I agree with this ^^.

"Now that we have a funtional definition metagame is, we can talk about it in 40k. We will start with the local gaming shop.

Lets say that everybody at your shop thought Dark Eldar where just the most amazing thing GW has done in years and got all excited at playing with something other than marines. A month or so after the codex dropped, and suddenly every other game you bring your Tyranids to they have to make about fifty million saves against poison. So you make a few changes to your list, add a Tervigon or two in order to give yourself a fighting chance against the spiky elves, and roll on.

The term I see most often for this is tailoring. Tailoring is not an incorrect term, but its not the complete story. What you have done is tailor your list in order to account for the metagame at your local store. Note that this is different from tailoring your list to let you beat the one guy who always shoots you off the table with IG on turn 3."


Here's where I think we reach murky grey waters. Personally, changing a COUPLE of aspects of your army when a new army drops in 40k is simply adapting to rules changes and this is where I think MtG metagaming and 40k metagaming differ. In MtG it's very hard to make a deck which has a decent chance against everything and the more you do this, the less overall winning chances you'll have against lists. On the other hand you can create a deck that dominates the 'common' decks and work to play match-ups at tournaments. You CAN do this with 40k but you can also build an army that can handle all armies against it - aka a balanced army list. Now this list is going to have weaknesses and whilst it's less likely to win against certain lists, the chances aren't minimal.


What this means in terms of metagaming is you can stop producing cards for MtG and you'll still see deck evolution as different decks/colors/combinations come into play and become countered. By having new decks every several months this evolution is kept fresh. In 40k since you can create balanced lists and the over-arching rules aren't touched throughout the lifespan of an edition, this evolution is much less seen. It can be seen and sometimes is, but individuals operating under the balanced list premise aren't having to change their lists drastically to deal with all the change happening around them. Most changes will be seen when a new codex is dropped to ensure the army can handle new army variants but for the most part, the 5th edition ruleset dictates army design. For example, in 5th edition mech is powerful and you need weight of fire to drop infantry. Lots of people think to 'go against the meta' they'll take a massive foot list and the opponent can't hurt them. This is crapola because a balanced list can hurt them. Yes their anti-tank is less effective but they can still put a dent in a massive foot list and have good defenses themselves.


Add in that MtG is relatively cheap to do whole-sale changes to your codex and 40k is not and metagaming has a damper put on it. But back to the original point you made...a couple of unit changes isn't tailoring - particularly if it's at your local scene. If you make whole-sale army changes to better deal with a certain army which gimps your army against others, then yes you are starting to enter the realm of tailoring.

"Now we can talk about the metagame in tournament 40k. The most important thing to understand is that a Warhammer player CANNOT take advantage of metagame concepts the way a MtG player can. The reason for this is that on a scale larger that that of the local shop, the 40k metagame is too "loose" to make effective predictions about what you will up against. (Even at the local level its rare for any particular list/race to be so dominant that tailoring is effective)."

Correct and I went into more detail above for the rest of the readers.

"In order to understand why the 40k player can't do what the MtG player does, we need to understand that the MtG player can predict what to expect with far more precision that a 40k player can. When a MtG player says "I can expect 60% burn, 30% discard, 10% everything else" it is not the equivalent of a Warhammer player saying "I can expect 60% marine, 30% spiky elves". It is more the equivalant of the Warhammer player saying "I can expect 60% BA jumper, 20% Dragowing, 20% everything else."
The 40k player cannot make predictions like that because no particular list is that dominant. Although some lists and races are better than others, the closest you can get to MtG level prediction is saying that you will see a lot of marines. Because of the huge variation in effective, competative lists it is impossible to tailor a 40k list the way a MtG deck can be.

In summary: there is a metagame in 40k, but it is not precise enough to take advantage of, beyond occasional situations at the local level. Attempting to use it is a waste of time. A player is better off trying to field a balanced, take all comers list."


I agree 100% with your conclusion. :). So let's hear other's thoughts. I know there are some out there who believe 100% in the metagame so I'd like to hear your opinions against this.

Comments (22)

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VinsKlortho's avatar

VinsKlortho · 710 weeks ago

With some of the rumors of the Necron codex and having now had greater experience with other games outside of 40k/Fantasy I would have to say that metagaming in 40k is much narrower in scope than in those other systems.

Consider special weapons. The main choices are plasma, flamer, and melta. Often times the choice is melta because torrent of fire is usually sufficient to kill infantry and the dominance of armor in this edition generally requires a more reliable method of breaking tanks. Melta is so efficient at this job in the way that it can break most vehicles regardless of armor value that it effect heavy weapon selection. While LasCannons are able to break AV 14, the melta does this so efficiently that you generally do not see as much AV 14 for this reason(in addition to its greater cost), other weapons are either more efficient at breaking the more prevalent armor values(Autocannons) or do a similar job while being more versatile and cheaper(Missile Launchers).
1 reply · active 710 weeks ago
VinsKlortho's avatar

VinsKlortho · 710 weeks ago

Unless some new codex radically changes the game you can assume that mech will be better than non-mech most of the time and if you generally build your list to be able to reliably pop light vehicles in great numbers while still maintaining enough anti-infantry to clear out the insides then you'll probably do fine.
I wish the word had never been invented. A good (i.e. balanced) list 2 years ago, was good then, was good a year ago and is good now. Where the F is this 'meta' people talk about? You may change your list to beat your buddies, but I'll say a few things about that.

1) if you had a balanced list in the first place you wouldn't need to do this. If you did either 2) or 3) are true..
2) your opponent is better than you
3) your opponent has tailored to you

If 2 is true, then you tailoring won't help in the grand scheme of things. If 3 is true, take him to a tournament and show the tailoring douchebag how sucky tailoring is.The rules of 40k and MtG are very very different in the way they influence the game. If each and every codex bought very new rules (i.e. new vehicle damage chart for example) then I would expect large shifts. As it is, codices don't have the same influence on the game that new decks have in MtG. I do my best to get a good deal of melta into my lists, without sacrificing necessities elsewhere. I did the same 2 years ago. I'll do the same the day before 6th Ed comes out. Your buddies' army choices may change, but what's good and bad in an army list won't.
7 replies · active 710 weeks ago
In my mind there is Local Metagame and Global Metagame. Your local meta is what you play against. If you only have half a dozen buddies, and they all play Orks, then your Local Meta is Orks. **Whether you do anything about that or not**, the fact remains that your Local Metagame is Orks. That is where your meta is. If you want to include units that are good against Orks then that's your choice. No-one is saying that it's "better" than being "balanced" in the ethical or competitive lexicon of wargaming, but the fact remains that if you always play against 100+ Orks, you might find that your Meltagun unit becomes more efficient as a Flamer unit.

> if you had a balanced list in the first place you wouldn't need to do this

Your argument seems to be "A balanced army is just as good as a tailored army in any matchup" which is just flat out wrong. If you put down 200 infantry models and I have a choice between 2 Dev Squads with Lascannon or 3 Dakka Preds, the Preds are obviously the better choice. Your "balanced army" cannot table the Green Tide opponent by turn 3, an army with 9 Artillery pieces and Flamer Vets could. The tailored army is better than the balanced army because it wins faster, easier, and with less casualties. Just because this doesn't apply to tournaments (unless it's a tournament that only you and your friends are entering) does not mean that it isn't true. Yes, you could hypothetically win every game with a balanced list, but it won't be as easy as if you tailored to your metagame.

Global Meta is that something like 70% of all armies in all tournaments are wearing Power Armour, and is the reason why every single mathhammer example uses T4/3+ as the benchmark for "How killy is this unit?" The difference is that it's impossible to tailor to this because of the evidence of Kirby's recent post of "Not all Marines play the same". You know Marines are prevalent, but you have no idea what you're going to get matched up against in a bigger-than-local tourney, so you can't metagame against it. It's like saying "I'm going to metagame against White" in MTG. White what? Weenie? Control? Lifegain? Turbofog? W/U Flyers? Slide? R/W Aggro? Equipment? Enduring Ideal? Yes, you could include certain cards that say "destroy target white permanent" or "counter target white spell" but they are very few and far between, and are going to lose you games against non-white opponents. You're much better off building against the archetype (Mech) than the colour (Marines).
The point is a balanced list gives you the ability to take on any list. It's why nobody takes lascannon devs.

Tailoring makes it easier to win. Against that list. It's not a viable, long-term, tournament-worthy strategy.

In 40k you don't build against archetype... that wouldn't be a balanced list. I want my list to be able to take out 15 chimeras in one game, 200 orks in the next and 50 space marines with 6 rhinos in the next. That's the challenge. It's not difficult to build against a single archetype. It's very easy actually. Balance is far more difficult.
oh... and for what I will... I agree that a 'metagame' exists, but to me it means nothing, affects nothing and fo anybody trying to play competitively, it shouldn't either. 'Metagaming' leads to rock-paper-scissors and I can play that for free.
I do understand your point. Still a balanced list is affected my meta (i-e external factor to your list). I call a list “balanced” when it does not start with a great disadvantage against any given other list (e-i being able to resist and destroy your opponent army). Any new codex can introduce new things that will change the “any given other army”. As a consequence you may have to change your balance list according to the new meta.
There was a time not that far ago (i-e before SM/IG release) where fielding 8-9 vehicles was the max you can expect from any codex (thanks to much more expensive vehicle like rhino @50pts, chimera @80pts). Hence a balanced list at that time does not need to be able to deal with 15 AV11-12 hull…now a balanced list as to be able to deal with that.
But the release of a new army has nothing to do with the metagame, it is just a rule update. The word 'metagame' implies the existence of an unique knowledge that cannot be learnt by simply reading the rules.

You don't take tanks in 40k because you know your opponent has next to no anti-vehicle weapons. You bring them because the rules make them good.
Rule does not make any unit good or bad by itself. It is the combination of rules and what most of your opponents will field that will make an unit good or not. If you take ML long fang they are good due to what 80% of other people play (3+ save, AV11-12 vehicle spam, MC with T6&3+ save,…). If 80% of the player were playing Chaoswing, Deathwing, 5 Landraider list,… ML long fang will not be a must to include or seen as efficient as other unit/weapon option.
One good example is that in “new” competitive list we see more and more long range fire on infantry (Havocs, Devastator SM,…) when 1 years ago firing vehicles (rifle dread, pred, typhoon) were bread and butter of long range fire support. It is not due that the rules have changes (old codex) but more that, as most and most people include suppression fire, it is necessary to have alternative fire option.
But why do people field Av11-12 vehicles instead of Land Raiders or Chaoswings in the first place? Because these units are reliable, affordable, and have no hard counters. When you can take 5 Chimeras instead of a Land Raider, but Meltaguns make the latter as vulnerable as the former, heavily mechanized armies are more or less the most obvious thing to do.

The reason people start fielding Devastators squads and the like has nothing to do with the metagame - if anything, Sanctionned Psykers, Venoms, and Grey Knights should have made them obsolete. The truth is, people started to realize these so-called bad units weren't actually that bad when Long Fangs started hitting the field.
I've always been under the belief that 40k is as though a bunch of Magic players were playing the Rock (this is referring to a deck name not a super unit in 40k) The deck had basically a 40-60% win chance against any given deck and was more about the pilot's skill and occasional small differences in card choice. For those interested this deck existed in a few forms largely during the older Extended seasons, but hasn't really been seen since.

Basically I've always thought of 40k like old (pre-Odyssey) Vintage Meta-game in Magic with only a few tournaments and few changes were made to the same decks. Granted a little would change with each set, but not unlike including a few small unit choices that help against a new codex.
1 reply · active 710 weeks ago
Jund was The Rock. It was dominant in standard last year.
Hi there,

For me there is a meta that is based on what other codes can field. Since in each codex release we see new rule/equipment/unit/FOC, it will affect the way the game is played. Let’s take 2 examples:
-3 to 4 years ago anti-psy was not a must. Since then all codex have either multiple psyker FOC option (GK/BA/SW) and/or powerful power (SW/GK/BA,…). As a consequence more and more list try to include anti-psy.
-Let’s imagine that in the next 2 codex we see a new kind of ability/template weapon that can each turn easily make glancing on 3-4 vehicles a turn for 120 pts (example: a manticore-like unit that make 1D3 big template, each unit under the template take a S4 AP- hit and vehicle take an auto-glancing). It might affect the way list are built by making mech less effective.
There is a loose meta, it's called "you need anti-tank shooting". Beyond that - not really.
Meta doens't exist as there has to be a cut off point. Eg : I tailor to beat A, but I'm weaker against B so I tweak but now I'm strong against A+B but weaker to C+D, so I tweak to be good against C+D but now I'm weaker against A+E but ok against B, so I tweak again and now I'm ok aganst C+D, strong vs A,B,E but auto loose to FGHIJKL..... its an ad infinatum argument.

Optimise - have ways of dealing with everything in it's likely proportions. (so if the 'meta' is land raiders vs rhinos take more melta/lascannons instead of autocannons) but don't go overboard.
Maybe I'm really not understanding correctly, but for me, the Meta is directly dictated by the rulebook. The meta is the state of 40k 5th edition. I mean, That edition has made tank so useful and cheap that everybody who has access to it takes advantage of this.Hence you need a lot of antitank to have a chance. But then, this edition did not render foot unit useless and they are still viable option, so you also have to have anti-infantry in your list to have a chance. Hence why we say that a balanced list is a good thing. The meta makes it valid.

Let say 6th edition comes out and then tank are useless but infantry rules the board (very unlikely but just pretend). Then the meta will change and we will see a lot of list with few tanks and a lot of foot units. In that case, a balanced list might not be a good thing since you need more anti-infantry than anti-tank.

My point is, it is the 5th edition rules that makes a balanced list the best thing to have now if you want to have more chances against everybody. So the Meta is directly dictated by the rulebook.

And in the case that a new codex is release that force you to make little change to your list to have a chance, then you just made your list more balanced that it was, because balanced is defined with all the other codex in mind, and this new one is just a new part of the equation use to make your balanced list.
2 replies · active 710 weeks ago
Well, it all depends on how you define "metagame." One definition is ONLY the aspects that lie outside the game itself- for example, whether you ate a good meal before playing would be a metagame concern, as would your opponent's psychological state, the percentage of various armies in your area, etc, etc.

Another definition (and the one that tends to get used here) is the overall "state of the game," including the codices available and what builds are currently making their rounds, either in general or in your specific area.

The problem lies in where you draw the line between the game and the metagame- for example, yes, the 5th Edition rules make tanks a lot tougher than they were previously, but if Rhinos cost 75pts, mech spam would not be a thing. The game dictates what the metagame (or, to put it differently "play environment") can be, but it is not the whole and sum of it. The game has not significantly changed since Leafblower was around (other than the loss of Mystics to prevent DS shenanigans), but the meta has still shifted away from it since then because of changes in understanding, perception, and popularity.
And that's probably why the so-called metagame stems from a poor understanding of the game: when Tactical squads with Powerfists, Lash Chaos, and horde Orks are considered as top tier choices, or the average 'Grey Hunters + Rune Priests + Long Fangs' build is thought as game-breaking, the slow emergence of actual competitive armies may be misunderstood as a 'metagame shift', when the armies actually played aren't that different from, say, the ones designed by Stelek more than three years ago.
well, another aspect then the composition of armies that are arround in your gaming environment is the terrain! i know the terrain available in my gaming group, i know what the FLGS has as terrain and i know the terrain that some of the local tourney organisers have at hand.
knowing when i have to expect flat boards with good LOS or boards with lots of hills or buildings affects the armybuilt i might want to bring. i guess that's a piece of metagame too.

what about developments like the return of the missile, devastators or the HB razorback? after SW hit with longfangs suddenly devs were back on the screen. GK with psybacks hit, and now HB razors start popping up in other codices' lists.
1 reply · active 710 weeks ago
Yes indeed. I said metagame was dictated by BRB, but like others said, there is the local metagame too. And terrain is something that really affect the way you build list. So if in your local meta, the map are always similar, then it might take your army in another direction that in the global meta, which seems to be light on terrain(which could explain why IG was consider top a while back and now that terrain seems to be much more balanced too, they continue to be strong but are not dominating like before).
Something not discussed is that the meta is affected by what models people have. Sure if you are playing at the top level tournaments you should aim for the most efficient list and be prepared to shell out to get this, and in return should expect to face the same class of lists. At a lower level people will bring what they have, which could be anything from optimal, to terrible, and this of course can change dramatically with a new codex release. Consequently the range of army builds you can face rises exponentially, and the chance of build a true all comers list goes down the pan. A list that works well against 100+ Ork boys isn't probably going to do so well against a well armoured elite army. In addition, the points level you play at also changes the meta, at 1500 you don't have the room to be able to take all the tools - you have to make compromises, and you are back to rock, paper, scissors again.
I have an interesting local metagame example. I have a group of friends (not the only ones I play with, but one group) who bought a cool set of five-story ruins years ago that they always work onto their tabletop. Because of this development, their opinion of what works and does not work in 40k is far different than mine, or, for that matter, the world/Net at large.

Pretty much every game my Eldar-playing friend perches either his Dark Reapers or Pathfinders (or both) high in their unassailable tower with some counterpunchers (Harlies or Banshees) at the bottom, and tears the crap out of all of us poor unfortunates on the ground. Plus with large set pieces on the board, there's not a whole lot of maneuvering a parking lot can do. In essence, their scenery has completely changed the game so that a hybrid (minimal mech, no unit repetition) foot Eldar list can dominate, though Jumper BAs (not surprisingly, played by the other guy who owns the scenery) do pretty well too.

I'm a fairly new player, so I'm not so good at coming up with an answer to the unorthodoxy, so I just play whatever I feel like playing and do what I can, but it's interesting to play with them, since it's so different than playing anywhere else.

To take it a step farther (further?), wouldn't the amount and quality of scenery at a local game shop/shot be part of the metagame for everybody. Yes, the rulebook, has a recommended amount of terrain, but if someone builds a beautiful playing table, it is what it is, right?

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