Kirb your enthusiasm!
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit

Tuesday, August 23, 2011
Email in: Metagame
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"First, long time fan of the blog. It's helped me surprise a few people with my nids and my wife keeps reading the space wolf posts and giggling about what she's going to do to people.
I'm a relatively new player with a background in competitive magic the gathering. I plan on working my way into tournament play in the states, but my job forced me to take a bit of a break in playing. Here are some thoughts I've had on the nature of the 40k metagame. It started out as an email to my wife that grew a bit out of control. I'd love to have your feedback on it.
I see a lot of talk online about the metagame in 40k. The two most common arguments are 1) is there a metagame in 40k? and 2) how should it effect how I build my list/play the game.
To start off, we will discuss what metagame is. The term refers to those things that change how you play the game outside of the game its self, particularly in reference to list building and tournaments. The most comon example of metagame is tournament Magic the Gathering.
Because of the way competative MtG is set up, it is possible for a player to have a very good idea of what decks he will be facing and plan accordingly. This most commonly takes a form something like "Red burn is dominant, I expect 60% of what I see to be burn decks, I'll adjust my deck so that it beats burn, at the cost of making it weaker vs everything else." The player uses his knowledge of what he expects to see to adjust his deck and so takes advantage of the metagame."
I'll chuck in here that I agree with this ^^.
"Now that we have a funtional definition metagame is, we can talk about it in 40k. We will start with the local gaming shop.
Lets say that everybody at your shop thought Dark Eldar where just the most amazing thing GW has done in years and got all excited at playing with something other than marines. A month or so after the codex dropped, and suddenly every other game you bring your Tyranids to they have to make about fifty million saves against poison. So you make a few changes to your list, add a Tervigon or two in order to give yourself a fighting chance against the spiky elves, and roll on.
The term I see most often for this is tailoring. Tailoring is not an incorrect term, but its not the complete story. What you have done is tailor your list in order to account for the metagame at your local store. Note that this is different from tailoring your list to let you beat the one guy who always shoots you off the table with IG on turn 3."
Here's where I think we reach murky grey waters. Personally, changing a COUPLE of aspects of your army when a new army drops in 40k is simply adapting to rules changes and this is where I think MtG metagaming and 40k metagaming differ. In MtG it's very hard to make a deck which has a decent chance against everything and the more you do this, the less overall winning chances you'll have against lists. On the other hand you can create a deck that dominates the 'common' decks and work to play match-ups at tournaments. You CAN do this with 40k but you can also build an army that can handle all armies against it - aka a balanced army list. Now this list is going to have weaknesses and whilst it's less likely to win against certain lists, the chances aren't minimal.
What this means in terms of metagaming is you can stop producing cards for MtG and you'll still see deck evolution as different decks/colors/combinations come into play and become countered. By having new decks every several months this evolution is kept fresh. In 40k since you can create balanced lists and the over-arching rules aren't touched throughout the lifespan of an edition, this evolution is much less seen. It can be seen and sometimes is, but individuals operating under the balanced list premise aren't having to change their lists drastically to deal with all the change happening around them. Most changes will be seen when a new codex is dropped to ensure the army can handle new army variants but for the most part, the 5th edition ruleset dictates army design. For example, in 5th edition mech is powerful and you need weight of fire to drop infantry. Lots of people think to 'go against the meta' they'll take a massive foot list and the opponent can't hurt them. This is crapola because a balanced list can hurt them. Yes their anti-tank is less effective but they can still put a dent in a massive foot list and have good defenses themselves.
Add in that MtG is relatively cheap to do whole-sale changes to your codex and 40k is not and metagaming has a damper put on it. But back to the original point you made...a couple of unit changes isn't tailoring - particularly if it's at your local scene. If you make whole-sale army changes to better deal with a certain army which gimps your army against others, then yes you are starting to enter the realm of tailoring.
"Now we can talk about the metagame in tournament 40k. The most important thing to understand is that a Warhammer player CANNOT take advantage of metagame concepts the way a MtG player can. The reason for this is that on a scale larger that that of the local shop, the 40k metagame is too "loose" to make effective predictions about what you will up against. (Even at the local level its rare for any particular list/race to be so dominant that tailoring is effective)."
Correct and I went into more detail above for the rest of the readers.
"In order to understand why the 40k player can't do what the MtG player does, we need to understand that the MtG player can predict what to expect with far more precision that a 40k player can. When a MtG player says "I can expect 60% burn, 30% discard, 10% everything else" it is not the equivalent of a Warhammer player saying "I can expect 60% marine, 30% spiky elves". It is more the equivalant of the Warhammer player saying "I can expect 60% BA jumper, 20% Dragowing, 20% everything else."
The 40k player cannot make predictions like that because no particular list is that dominant. Although some lists and races are better than others, the closest you can get to MtG level prediction is saying that you will see a lot of marines. Because of the huge variation in effective, competative lists it is impossible to tailor a 40k list the way a MtG deck can be.
In summary: there is a metagame in 40k, but it is not precise enough to take advantage of, beyond occasional situations at the local level. Attempting to use it is a waste of time. A player is better off trying to field a balanced, take all comers list."
I agree 100% with your conclusion. :). So let's hear other's thoughts. I know there are some out there who believe 100% in the metagame so I'd like to hear your opinions against this.
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Email in: Metagame
2011-08-23T11:10:00+10:00
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Analysis|Warhammer 40k|
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VinsKlortho · 710 weeks ago
Consider special weapons. The main choices are plasma, flamer, and melta. Often times the choice is melta because torrent of fire is usually sufficient to kill infantry and the dominance of armor in this edition generally requires a more reliable method of breaking tanks. Melta is so efficient at this job in the way that it can break most vehicles regardless of armor value that it effect heavy weapon selection. While LasCannons are able to break AV 14, the melta does this so efficiently that you generally do not see as much AV 14 for this reason(in addition to its greater cost), other weapons are either more efficient at breaking the more prevalent armor values(Autocannons) or do a similar job while being more versatile and cheaper(Missile Launchers).
VinsKlortho · 710 weeks ago
Bro_Lo 82p · 710 weeks ago
1) if you had a balanced list in the first place you wouldn't need to do this. If you did either 2) or 3) are true..
2) your opponent is better than you
3) your opponent has tailored to you
If 2 is true, then you tailoring won't help in the grand scheme of things. If 3 is true, take him to a tournament and show the tailoring douchebag how sucky tailoring is.The rules of 40k and MtG are very very different in the way they influence the game. If each and every codex bought very new rules (i.e. new vehicle damage chart for example) then I would expect large shifts. As it is, codices don't have the same influence on the game that new decks have in MtG. I do my best to get a good deal of melta into my lists, without sacrificing necessities elsewhere. I did the same 2 years ago. I'll do the same the day before 6th Ed comes out. Your buddies' army choices may change, but what's good and bad in an army list won't.
Sethis · 710 weeks ago
> if you had a balanced list in the first place you wouldn't need to do this
Your argument seems to be "A balanced army is just as good as a tailored army in any matchup" which is just flat out wrong. If you put down 200 infantry models and I have a choice between 2 Dev Squads with Lascannon or 3 Dakka Preds, the Preds are obviously the better choice. Your "balanced army" cannot table the Green Tide opponent by turn 3, an army with 9 Artillery pieces and Flamer Vets could. The tailored army is better than the balanced army because it wins faster, easier, and with less casualties. Just because this doesn't apply to tournaments (unless it's a tournament that only you and your friends are entering) does not mean that it isn't true. Yes, you could hypothetically win every game with a balanced list, but it won't be as easy as if you tailored to your metagame.
Global Meta is that something like 70% of all armies in all tournaments are wearing Power Armour, and is the reason why every single mathhammer example uses T4/3+ as the benchmark for "How killy is this unit?" The difference is that it's impossible to tailor to this because of the evidence of Kirby's recent post of "Not all Marines play the same". You know Marines are prevalent, but you have no idea what you're going to get matched up against in a bigger-than-local tourney, so you can't metagame against it. It's like saying "I'm going to metagame against White" in MTG. White what? Weenie? Control? Lifegain? Turbofog? W/U Flyers? Slide? R/W Aggro? Equipment? Enduring Ideal? Yes, you could include certain cards that say "destroy target white permanent" or "counter target white spell" but they are very few and far between, and are going to lose you games against non-white opponents. You're much better off building against the archetype (Mech) than the colour (Marines).
Bro_Lo 82p · 710 weeks ago
Tailoring makes it easier to win. Against that list. It's not a viable, long-term, tournament-worthy strategy.
In 40k you don't build against archetype... that wouldn't be a balanced list. I want my list to be able to take out 15 chimeras in one game, 200 orks in the next and 50 space marines with 6 rhinos in the next. That's the challenge. It's not difficult to build against a single archetype. It's very easy actually. Balance is far more difficult.
Bro_Lo 82p · 710 weeks ago
Pop421 · 710 weeks ago
There was a time not that far ago (i-e before SM/IG release) where fielding 8-9 vehicles was the max you can expect from any codex (thanks to much more expensive vehicle like rhino @50pts, chimera @80pts). Hence a balanced list at that time does not need to be able to deal with 15 AV11-12 hull…now a balanced list as to be able to deal with that.
Badger · 710 weeks ago
You don't take tanks in 40k because you know your opponent has next to no anti-vehicle weapons. You bring them because the rules make them good.
Pop421 · 710 weeks ago
One good example is that in “new” competitive list we see more and more long range fire on infantry (Havocs, Devastator SM,…) when 1 years ago firing vehicles (rifle dread, pred, typhoon) were bread and butter of long range fire support. It is not due that the rules have changes (old codex) but more that, as most and most people include suppression fire, it is necessary to have alternative fire option.
Badger · 710 weeks ago
The reason people start fielding Devastators squads and the like has nothing to do with the metagame - if anything, Sanctionned Psykers, Venoms, and Grey Knights should have made them obsolete. The truth is, people started to realize these so-called bad units weren't actually that bad when Long Fangs started hitting the field.
Nero · 710 weeks ago
Basically I've always thought of 40k like old (pre-Odyssey) Vintage Meta-game in Magic with only a few tournaments and few changes were made to the same decks. Granted a little would change with each set, but not unlike including a few small unit choices that help against a new codex.
Neil · 710 weeks ago
Pop421 · 710 weeks ago
For me there is a meta that is based on what other codes can field. Since in each codex release we see new rule/equipment/unit/FOC, it will affect the way the game is played. Let’s take 2 examples:
-3 to 4 years ago anti-psy was not a must. Since then all codex have either multiple psyker FOC option (GK/BA/SW) and/or powerful power (SW/GK/BA,…). As a consequence more and more list try to include anti-psy.
-Let’s imagine that in the next 2 codex we see a new kind of ability/template weapon that can each turn easily make glancing on 3-4 vehicles a turn for 120 pts (example: a manticore-like unit that make 1D3 big template, each unit under the template take a S4 AP- hit and vehicle take an auto-glancing). It might affect the way list are built by making mech less effective.
N.I.B. · 710 weeks ago
Joe · 710 weeks ago
Optimise - have ways of dealing with everything in it's likely proportions. (so if the 'meta' is land raiders vs rhinos take more melta/lascannons instead of autocannons) but don't go overboard.
Stephane · 710 weeks ago
Let say 6th edition comes out and then tank are useless but infantry rules the board (very unlikely but just pretend). Then the meta will change and we will see a lot of list with few tanks and a lot of foot units. In that case, a balanced list might not be a good thing since you need more anti-infantry than anti-tank.
My point is, it is the 5th edition rules that makes a balanced list the best thing to have now if you want to have more chances against everybody. So the Meta is directly dictated by the rulebook.
And in the case that a new codex is release that force you to make little change to your list to have a chance, then you just made your list more balanced that it was, because balanced is defined with all the other codex in mind, and this new one is just a new part of the equation use to make your balanced list.
abusepuppy 121p · 710 weeks ago
Another definition (and the one that tends to get used here) is the overall "state of the game," including the codices available and what builds are currently making their rounds, either in general or in your specific area.
The problem lies in where you draw the line between the game and the metagame- for example, yes, the 5th Edition rules make tanks a lot tougher than they were previously, but if Rhinos cost 75pts, mech spam would not be a thing. The game dictates what the metagame (or, to put it differently "play environment") can be, but it is not the whole and sum of it. The game has not significantly changed since Leafblower was around (other than the loss of Mystics to prevent DS shenanigans), but the meta has still shifted away from it since then because of changes in understanding, perception, and popularity.
Badger · 710 weeks ago
Fohogoroh · 710 weeks ago
knowing when i have to expect flat boards with good LOS or boards with lots of hills or buildings affects the armybuilt i might want to bring. i guess that's a piece of metagame too.
what about developments like the return of the missile, devastators or the HB razorback? after SW hit with longfangs suddenly devs were back on the screen. GK with psybacks hit, and now HB razors start popping up in other codices' lists.
Stephane · 710 weeks ago
SirTainy · 710 weeks ago
billybox 52p · 710 weeks ago
Pretty much every game my Eldar-playing friend perches either his Dark Reapers or Pathfinders (or both) high in their unassailable tower with some counterpunchers (Harlies or Banshees) at the bottom, and tears the crap out of all of us poor unfortunates on the ground. Plus with large set pieces on the board, there's not a whole lot of maneuvering a parking lot can do. In essence, their scenery has completely changed the game so that a hybrid (minimal mech, no unit repetition) foot Eldar list can dominate, though Jumper BAs (not surprisingly, played by the other guy who owns the scenery) do pretty well too.
I'm a fairly new player, so I'm not so good at coming up with an answer to the unorthodoxy, so I just play whatever I feel like playing and do what I can, but it's interesting to play with them, since it's so different than playing anywhere else.
To take it a step farther (further?), wouldn't the amount and quality of scenery at a local game shop/shot be part of the metagame for everybody. Yes, the rulebook, has a recommended amount of terrain, but if someone builds a beautiful playing table, it is what it is, right?