"Heya Kirby,
Well, my friends and I are playing some games that are supposed to be pre-heresy, and I've chosen the Iron Warriors. Pre-heresy meaning that we're using the Vanilla Marine Codex, and we're avoiding units/technologies that the fluff says wasn't discovered or used till later: Librarians (thanks, Nikea), Chaplains, Razorbacks & LR Crusaders, for example.
My problem is that with no Razorbacks, MSU seems out. And with no LRCs, getting Terminators up into the fight involves regular (or Redeemer). And being Iron Warriors, bike squads seem to be not in the "style" of the slow, plodding siege masters.
So here's my take
Pedro Kantor (Stubborn, makes the sterns scoring) (175)
4xHonour Guard with Relic Blades in a Rhino with HKM (255)
2x 5-man Stern guard with 2x Combi-Melta, 1xCombi-Flamer and 2xMissile in a Rhino with HKM (195 ea.)
1x TLAC Dreadnaught (125)
3x 10-man Tacticals with Meltagun, Missile, and Combi-Flamer in a Rhino with HKM (230 ea.)
1x 2-Bike Attack Bike Squad with Multi-Meltas
2x Dakka Pred (85 ea.)
1x Whirlwind (85)
So a total of 7 missile launchers, 4 autocannons (2 TL), 6 HKM. Every troop squad except the honour guard either has meltagun or combi-melta. The honor guard is my counter-assault unit, joining with Pedro.
Yes, perhaps another predator is better than a whirlwind - but I do enjoy a large blast template now and then...
Thoughts? Comments? Ideas?
-- Andy"
The Honor Guard aren't really needed so I'd be looking to replace them. Not sure how fluffy Kantor and Sternguard are but having a single Whirlie and Rifledread isn't too flash. Perhaps taking a Master of the Forge for more Dreadnoughts? Or use the extra points from the Honor Guard to expand the Sternguard squads.
Not sure on the fluff for Land Speeders but I'd prefer to see some of them in there for increased saturation/increased firepower. Typhoons in particularly would be nice and do fit in with Iron Warriors in terms of lots of shooting. Basically I wouldn't really move much beyond the usual Mech Marine list of Dreads, Speeders, Rhino Marines, Razorback Marines and Preds but obviously dropping the RBacks for Rhino Marines. You can easily swap out the Dreads for Sternguard with Pedro and use Typhoons instead of MM/HF Speeders to overcome the lack of ranged firepower without the Dreads.
A single Whirldwind is okay but it's not going to give you as much against Mech/MC lists compared to the Dakka Pred but then has the ability to be better against infantry based lists. Shootynators instead of the single Dread are also a nice option in giving you lots of anti-infantry firepower and some CMLs on the move though clearing the space for them to be a big squad of 10 would require something (less fast attack for example). If you are taking Pedro and Sternguard though, you won't really need three Tac squads and I'd look to shave a squad there.
Logging you in...
abusepuppy 121p · 712 weeks ago
To avoid cries of excessive cheese, just avoid taking Rune Priests or more than, say, one squad of Long Fangs (or none at all.) SW have access to the normal tanks that SM get, so some Predators, Vindicators, or Land Raiders are all possibilities.
I know that, at the very least, Hellfire ammunition is a post-Heresy development (it was created to fight the Tyranids); I'm not sure about the other special ammunitions. Obviously Vengeance rounds are as well, I suppose, since they explicitly talk about being made to kill Chaos Marines. So yeah, probably not something that's appropriate there.
Iron Priests are also quite good if you give them some cyberpup buddies and a Thunderwolf- this is the one situation I'd recommend a Thunderwolf for the army, as it makes sense for him to have "upgraded" himself into a monstrously tough, fast combat machine. Wolf buddies are, of course, not wolves, but servitor stand-ins- some kind of combat machine.
Try something like this:
Wolf Lord (Terminator Armor, CC weapons and sagas to suit, Wolf Tail Talisman)
Wolf Guard squads x2 (Terminator armor, mixing in combi-weapons, heavy weapons, etc, as you please)
Iron Priest (Thunderwolf, 4x Cyberwolves)
9 GH (Meltagun, in Rhino) x3
(two HS tanks of choice)
5 Long Fangs (4 Missile)
That list ends up being pretty reasonable. Dakka or AutoLas Preds are probably your best bets for the HS, but Redeemers can make you into a seriously aggressive force pretty easily. Vindicators are super-fluffy but also not that great. However, they're also not so bad you'll cry, especially if you can flank them with Rhinos. HS ends up being kinda a dead choice for your army, since TWC and Speeders are both kinda inappropriate (at least as I see it) and the other options are all very bad.
Icebone · 712 weeks ago
These kind of fluff-lists aren't really worth going into too deep a discussion since anything can be rationalised to fit or not to fit, Abusepuppy's post is a good example of how loosely these kind of themed armies really fit the theme given (not that it has anything to do with Abusepuppy, it is just how it is). I would suggest making a list that tries to avoid the clear post-heresy stuff (although those can of course also be rationalised), then basically pick what you want and let the army itself show the fluffy theme of a pre-heresy army.
FOTM · 712 weeks ago
From what you see of Iron Warriors, a list trying to stick really close to fluff might decide to ignore Rhinos/Razorbacks altogether, as well as kicking out all bikes, even Land Speeders are only a maybe, if you're going with a theme of slow advance and digging in to fire at range a fluffy Iron Warriors army might be packing Techmarines to improve cover so it can dig in a bunch of Devastators with Lascannons.
But hey, BL produce so much contradicting canon, you can probably justify everything, especially if this is pre-HH, when Iron Warriors were the most divided Legion imaginable.
Icebone · 712 weeks ago
Basically what I mean is that you can only go so far by trying to make an armylist exceptionally fluffy. In my opinion the fluff should come from a combination of mostly painting scheme, converting/modelling and lastly selective use of the armylist. The armylist will never be able to stand alone as a fluffy component but as a last detail to an army project it will heighten the overall fluff impression an army gives.
FOTM · 712 weeks ago
The problem in this setting is that Pre-Heresy stuff isn't catered for by GW.
However army lists for anything 'contemporary' are a much more obvious sign of fluffiness than painting at times. Taking CSM, if you gave someone a crash course in fluff, they might find it difficult to tell apart Word Bearers and World Eaters from say, a single CSM. However that guy could easily pick out that 5 Berserker squads is mostly likely Eaters and the army filled with Daemons is probably Bearers. Army list is extremely important for fluff, no matter how you painted a Noise Marine, I wouldn't accept you'd made a very 'fluffy' World Eaters army with 4 squads of them and no Berserker's.
At the same time, you're never going to get a fluffy Pre-Heresy army, because little things, like the different Mk of Power Armour is going to trip you up. But the units you pick are just as important as how you paint them. Pink Devastators are no more fluffy than a perfectly painted Vulkan He'stan.
Icebone · 712 weeks ago
The attempted reduction that is made in themed lists doesn't 't necessarily make them fluffy, they are simply a way to make the theme shine through rather than to make a fluffy list. White Scars would not likely deploy mostly as bikers but an all bike army (or bike heavy army) is a nice theme and some people enjoy collecting, and playing, thematically, but to claim that they are particularly fluffy, or fluffier than more standard lists for White Scars is erroneous.
FOTM · 712 weeks ago
There are clear examples of where army list tailoring does or doesn't make a list more fluffy.
No matter how you try and argue it as an army, you can't claim to be playing a Thousand Sons army with no Sorcerers of any kind. In a similar way I wouldn't believe a Speed Freaks army was fluffy without any bikes or trukks. It matters more or less depending on the army, obviously an Ultramarines army could be fluffy using anything in the codex and for them tailoring isn't a problem.
You're right that choosing Khorne Beserkers doesn't make me a fluffy World Eaters player, but I don't think you could be said fluffy player without any, despite the fact that you could probably try and argue a case for it if you really wanted.
Icebone · 712 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 712 weeks ago
Lucius · 712 weeks ago
- Welcome to (Codex) Chaos ;)
Gavin Schofield · 712 weeks ago
It's 100pts shy of 2000pts if I remember rightly, never decided what to fill that gap with. Sorry about the dodgy formating, it's a copy/paste from a WordPad file:
Warsmith (Master of the Forge)
Servo-Harness, Combi-Melta, Power Sword
125pts
8 Veterans (Sternguard, MKIII Iron Armour)
Sergeant (Warsmith Model) with Lightning Claw, Combi-Melta
Meltagun, Meltagun, Combi-Flamer
in Rhino, Extra Armour, Hunter Killer
295pts
8 Veterans (Sternguard, MKIII Iron Armour)
Sergeant with Power Fist, Combi-Melta
Meltagun, Meltagun, Combi-Flamer
in Rhino, Extra Armour, Hunter Killer
295pts
Rifleman Dreadnought (ForgeWorld Contemptor)
125pts
10 Iron Warriors (MkII Crusade Armour)
Flamer, Missile Launcher
in Rhino, Hunter Killer
205pts
10 Iron Warriors (MkII Crusade Armour)
Flamer, Missile Launcher
in Rhino, Hunter Killer
205pts
9 Chosen (Vanguard, MKIV Maximus Armour)
Champion (Sergant, Servo Arm) Power Fist, Storm Shield
Power Weapon, Power Fist & Storm Shield
in Rhino, Extra Armour, Hunter Killer
345pts
Predator
Heavy Bolters
85pts
Predator
Heavy Bolters
85pts
Dreadnought (ForgeWorld Contemptor)
Autocannons
125pts
Icebone · 712 weeks ago
Gavin Schofield · 712 weeks ago
If you wanted to pay a fortune, you could buy the assault squad variants and use the legs, but you'd have to be quite rich to do that because the torsos don't match.
Chris · 686 weeks ago