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Saturday, August 20, 2011

GWvsJohn talks Chaos: the Basics



I just need to accept it. The only 40k army I care about is Chaos Space Marines. And frankly, can you blame me? Horus, traitoris extremis, the Long War, 10,000 year old blood soaked reavers, plus the power armor and bolt guns that make the 40k universe run. Chaos Space Marines are bad ass. They're the army I most enjoy playing, so I'm going to play them. However, I also like to win. This creates a conundrum as according to the interwebs, CSM are le suck. This is not acceptable. We need to find a way to fix it or work around it. So, we're going to shift focus on the Chaos Codex review and try to work on building a competitive CSM force. As much fun as it is to make fun of Fabius Bile and the Thousand Sons, I will be reviewing only viable options until we exhaust all of them. The focus will be on how these units fit into a competitive army. This post will lay down the basics on how to build a competitive army in general with a leaning toward my beloved traitors.

If you're talking about how to build a competitive army, and you're on the internet, you really need to at least mention Stelek. The majority of what I know about making a list I learned from reading his site. Whether you agree with his style or not, he is a top notch list-builder and he comes up with a lot of out of the box competitive builds. I think he is able to do this because he has a "backwards" approach to list-building. Rather than read a new codex, find a cool/effective unit and figure out how to use it in an army, he comes up with the army he wants to build first, then finds units that fit that army.

So now the question becomes, what do we need to build a competitive army. Amazingly, Stelek just lays it out for us in a seemingly throwaway post a while back. I'm going to expand on what he mentions there on what i think he means and incorporate some other concepts that we all are (or should be) familiar with.

"Have balanced firepower, aka a variety of infantry and mechanized?" This could be interpreted as bringing both infantry and mechanized in your army, but I think he means bringing both anti-troop and anti-mech firepower. And you need to bring enough of both. Green tide lists suck, but if your army only has lascannons and no anti-troop, being able to kill 12 Chimeras in 6 turns won't help a bit and you'll lose. This point is further stressed in the "6+6" concept, which says, at 2000 points, you need 6 dedicated anti-tank units and 6 dedicated anti-infantry units. I can already hear you protesting, "But GWvsJohn, what about duality?" Fear not little ones, duality is still important. Take Long Fangs for example. Everyone brings Missile Launcher Fangs, not Lascannon Fangs. Why? It's not solely because they're 15 points more, because 15 points for +1 S and ap2 is actually not a bad deal. It's also because that extra 15 points prevents you from firing frag missiles, which aren't amazing, but can cause some damage late game when enemy infantry is huddled in the wrecks of their transports. So, to summarize, dual units are better than single purpose units, but every unit needs a purpose, and you need 6 infantry focused units and 6 mech focused units.

"Can you bring mech?" Which really needs the follow-up sentence, "because if you can, you should." The benefits of mech have been expertly explained throughout 3++, so I'm going to assume you're all familiar. I do want to mention the "1+1" concept that goes hand-in-hand with mech/transports. If you can bring a transport that projects threat of its own, you can, in effect, bring 2 units in one FoC slot. This seems to be one of the WAAC/net community favorites that GW actually endorses as the last 2 books both have really good 1+1 transports in Raiders, Venoms and Psybacks. Any unit that can take one of those probably should, even if they never intend to embark.

"Do you get melta?" Having ready access to melta, and especially fast melta is a HUGE advantage for a list. What is really comes down to is reliability. If you can't bring melta, you need another "reliable" way to pop tanks in order to compete. These includes non-Coteaz GK with a ton of s8 autocannons and s7 rending, Dark Eldar with dozens of s8 lances and Tau with their s10 rail guns.

"Is your range effective?" This is probably one of the concepts that trips players up the most. If you aren't projecting threat from turn 1, you are in trouble. It's a problem for many GK (and why everyone brings Psyflemen), Vulkan, Orks, Nids, and especially our boys in spikes, the Chaos Space Marines.

"Do your troops not suck?" When 5e first hit, it was all troops all the time, then pendulum swung back and it was "min troops, kill everything" and now it's heading back to more troops, but in a smarter way. 2/3 of the book missions have objectives and most good tourney missions will have 3+ objectives. That doesn't mean take 6 and call it a day, you need to be smart and efficient. Multiple, smaller troops are better than fewer, bigger troops. Keep 6+6 and 1+1 in mind. And now we reach Stelek's final adding rule, "4+2" The best lists will have 4 troops choices that move forward, control midfield and threaten far objectives and 2 troops choices that sit back, protect your fire base and control home objectives. Remember, this isn't a hard and fast rule. If you have tough troops choices like a full 10-man tactical squad in a rhino, you probably don't need 4 to threaten midfield. If you have fast troops choices that can rapidly redeploy like DE in Raiders and BA in Razorbacks you can be more aggressive and pull them back later in the game.

"If you aren’t mech in any way, is your foot list actually effective?" There are very few lists with zero vehicles that can compete. Loganwing, SM Bikers, BA Jumpers, Deathwing and I think that's it. Pure foot Dark Eldar and Nids are borderline. Note that CSM are not on the list, so let's forget a Spikey Horde right now.

So that's it. Everything you need to make a competitive list laid out right in front of us by the master himself. Let's put it all together.

6 anti-tank units
6 anti-infantry units
6 troops, 4 to move forward, 2 to hang back
Mech
Long ranged weapons to project threat from turn 1
Melta to give me reliability in anti-tank
Transports that project their own threat

I think Chaos Space Marines can actually hit all the criteria. The problem is going to be the first 2. As you have seen in previous CSM reviews and you will continue to see in my further reviews, the problem with CSM units isn't usually the units themselves. It's their cost. Everything (with rare exception) in Codex Chaos Space Marines is overcosted and some things ridiculously so. In order to field a competitive CSM list, I'm going to have to be VERY frugal.

Comments (38)

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This promises to be a fun series of articles. I really engoy modelling Chaos(Nurgle and Slaanesh in particular) but the fact that their armies are so blah makes me a sad player. I plan to build a brand-neew army when they get a new book, but for now ai'm very interested to hear what you have to say about the current list.
This will be interesting.

I have so many marines that the thought of making a Chaos Company doesn't worry much.

Coming up with a theme that fits the fluff of old proud warriors, unwilling to bend the knee to the Emperor, rather than the "grrr grrr, we're bad!" fluff of the modern Codex, would be pretty easy to do.
Daboarder's avatar

Daboarder · 711 weeks ago

sorry lost me when you mentioned stelek. The man is a fool who somehow feels the need to type swearing.

For example, "is your range effective" as in do you have the big guns. this isn't as large an issue as you would think. Most modern codex's have the ability to operate effectively in the double tap range right off the but. this is because while they can lack long range support pretty much all the new books have plenty of ways of making lists that mitigate a lack of range with extreme mobility in some way or another.

Overall your principals are sound but I wouldn't read to much into what stelek says.....remember this is the man who spent 3 months touting "the tyranid codex will change the way you play" sorry mate all it did was re-enforce the 5th edition environment.
5 replies · active 710 weeks ago
I have to agree. Stelek is a fool and not just because he types like an idiot (swearing, typing "lol", etc). Finding units to fit an army is no less foolish than trying to find an army to fit a unit. That's just not how the game works.

A proper strategy in Warhammer 40,000 involves establishing how the game will be won (or at least not lost...) and working back from game turn 7 through the time and space to the materials you will need in your list to implement your strategy.

There are three ways that the game is won: capturing the most objectives, scoring the most kill-points, and tabling the opposing player's army. In other words, you need to outplay the other player, rather than bring a particular kind of list and hope you roll lucky.
Let me get this straight, because stelek is associated with list building techniques the advice is worthless? What are you children?

He has done so much for the competitive community, and you want to write the man off just because he has a sailor mouth? Shit this just boggles my mind how insular you two must be.
While I can only heartily applaud the sentiment to not hail Stelek as some sort of 40K god (no-one is THAT good), your issues with his points make no sense to me. Isn't Stelek doing exactly what you advocate, i.e. seeing what is needed to win (against a variety of armies) and trying to make a winning list from there?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with what you said, I just don't see it as anything other than what Stelek is saying.
I think he is butthurt because steleks says the same thing but with the added "fucks" and "shits".

My CSM army is parked on the shelf and sometimes is used as a proxy for actual good codices. The next time i play them as CSM is when the new book hits the stores. Before that? No point, sadly.

The whole decision making process for a CSM army:

Do i take a HQ that dies when the enemy looks funny at it because a 3+/5+ is not enough or one that needs to hide in one of our oh so cheap troops selections.

For elite do i want to have serious rules discussion with my opponent if yes choose a dread and argue about fire frenzy if not either choose suicide melta in a rhino or for deepstriking.

For troops should my troops have two melta and cost a lot or do you prefer cheap melta but shitty or no melta at all and a ml for 140 points or you can get plasma pistols on choppy dudes that can take rhinos.

Fast attack .... yeah funny.

As hs:
Do you want overpriced Devatators, Preds or a walker that does not know what it wants and has armor 12? You could take oblits and shoot up to three lascannons on three targets. Ok you can have 9 and still shoot on 3 targets for 450 points.

I tried it for a long time and as soon as some one brings a real army you are in for a sad time of walking and trying to pull draw barring shitty dice.

willydstyle's comment nails it.
"He played well, but I was totally outclassed as soon as I hit the table."
"Fast attack .... yeah funny."
Unfortunately this is too true.
infernosolarc's avatar

infernosolarc · 711 weeks ago

My best pass at this at 1850 pts

Nurgle Winged Daemon Prince
Nurgle Winged Daemon Prince

2 X 5 Noise Marines, BlastMaster Rhino, Havoc Missle Launcher

4 x 5 CSM MeltaGun, Champion, Combi-Melta, Rhino, Combi-Melta

1 x 3 Obliterator
2 x 2 Obliterator

4 dedicated Anti-Troop - (DPs and Noise Marines)
4 dedicated Anti-Tank - CSM
3 Long Range Switch Hitters - Oblits

12 Melta Guns, 2 Monsterous Creatures, 4 blasts, and 7 Obliterators

Pinning for use against Hordes.
7 replies · active 710 weeks ago
willydstyle's avatar

willydstyle · 711 weeks ago

Which hordes are afraid of pinning? I admit that this list is fairly solid for CSM, but those noise marine squads are basically a 140 point krak missile against many armies.
So are Tactical Marines, but there was an entire post last week defending them. :P
They can combat squad, know no fear get their weapons for free and the most important point there are actual good choices in other FOC slots.
willydstyle's avatar

willydstyle · 710 weeks ago

And they have twice as many bodies, which is important for a scoring unit.
Infernosolarc's avatar

Infernosolarc · 710 weeks ago

No one is overly afraid of pinning. But there are some units that are vulnerable.

Lootas, any 'Nids outside of Synapse, some IG sometimes.

Really though, the only nice thing about the blastmasters being pinning is that occasionally you can pin a squad and spread the fire power around, rather then be forced to shoot one squad to death and leave another untouched. Much like vehicle suppression.

And, yeah, Noise Marines aren't the best, they are just the best "+2" troops we have, IMHO.
willydstyle's avatar

willydstyle · 710 weeks ago

I was using Noise Marines as my backfield scoring long before Stelek decided to rename it "+2", and let me tell you: they still suck.
Problems I see here:

-You aren't projecting a lot of early threat. Seven Oblits and two Blastmasters at 1850 is not very much ranged firepower- certainly, it could be worse, but it means that you're relying on those units a lot, and it isn't terribly hard to kill or disable them.Not easy, either (as opposed to, say, Lootas), but it will only take a few Lascannon hits to seriously degrade your firepower. That means you're committed to playing the close-in game, which leads us into...

-Your troops are gonna be in the line of fire. It's the problem every CSM list has, because they HAVE to get their troops in point-blank to deploy Meltaguns and actually kill enemy tanks, as opposed to getting those 1-3 damage results each turn the Oblits contribute. SW can get away with this because it can field large numbers of of troops (or troop units) that are more resilient and simultaneously have other strong threats backing them up, like Speeders, TWC, Long Fangs, etc. CSM can't draw heat off its troops as effectively, and as a result, they will die a lot more.

-Daemon Princes are decent, but speaking as a Tyranid Player, S6/T6 just ain't no thang. Sure, it can shrug off small arms fire and is pretty fast, but Power Fists, Missile Launchers, etc, will still make it cry. Are they the best choice? Probably. Are they a saving grace for the codex? Definitely not.

I think the list looks pretty decent and does about as much as it can with the book, but in the end CSM is just a weak book. It does what others do, but more expensive and worse.
It was Chaos Marines that got me into this Game. Though they haven't hit the table more than a couple of times since the new Dex has come out, I still feel the call. I've gotten some great advice here that really kicked up my game with my Nids, here's hoping you can talk me into pulling my 10K+ of CSM back off the shelf.
1 reply · active 711 weeks ago
willydstyle's avatar

willydstyle · 711 weeks ago

I put my Chaos on the table last wednesday. Got stomped into the ground hard by a Dark Angels player. His troops were more durable, and caused more damage in both shooting and CC, his fire support was better, his FA options were better. He played well, but I was totally outclassed as soon as I hit the table.
brotheroracle's avatar

brotheroracle · 711 weeks ago

1850
2 Daemon Prince Wings MoT, BoC
2x3 Terminators with reaper auto cannon
5 Plague Marines double plasma, rhino, Havok
5 CSM Flamer, champ power weapon. Rhino, havok
4x5 CSM Melta, champ,combi, rhino+combi (a trend perhaps)
3x Dakka preds

6 Dedicated Anti Tank, CSM with melta 2 MoTPrinces
2 Dedicated Anti transport (Terminator)
5 anti infantry with the preds pulling sone anti transport duties
Grand Master Raziel's avatar

Grand Master Raziel · 711 weeks ago

I don't think CSMs are as bad as teh intarwebs would have us believe. I've been playing them in the LGS's escalation league for a couple months now, and I'm thus far undefeated. I dropped a couple draws, and have won all my other games. Granted, I've been playing relatively inexperienced players, but balanced against that is the fact I've been playing this goofy list that's A: intended to be a new home for some of my Radical Inquisitorial stuff and B: cobbled together out of what I already had kicking around. This is the current 1750pt list:
1 reply · active 711 weeks ago
Sorceror: Mark of Tzeench, Bolt of Change, Warptime (previously my Inquisitor Lord)
Lord: Mark of Tzeench, Disc of Tzeench, Tzeench daemon weapon
Dreadnought: twin linked autocannon, heavy flamer
CSM Squad: 9 CSMs+Aspiring Champion, 2 meltaguns, powerfist
Rhino
CSM Squad: 5 CSMs
Thousand Sons Squad: 5 Thousand Sons+Aspiring Sorceror with bolt of change (or, as I play them, my Inqy Lord's acoloyte and his retinue of zombie Ultramarines)
Lesser Daemon Pack: 5 LDs
Raptor Squad: 9 Raptors + Aspiring Champion: power fist, 2 flamers, Icon of Khorne
Land Raider with daemonic possession
ACLC Predator

To bring it up to 2000pts, I'm adding another ACLC Pred and a Dreadnought with 2 DCCWs, HF, and extra armor
Anon From Russia's avatar

Anon From Russia · 711 weeks ago

And whats wrong with old "1 dp 1 sorc 2 plagues 2 berzerkers 2 LRs 6 oblits" thing?
It's not competetive anymore/
1 reply · active 710 weeks ago
willydstyle's avatar

willydstyle · 710 weeks ago

No, it's not. It really wasn't that competitive in the first place, but these days you just don't have enough targets, and can't affect enough targets in a single turn.
My take @ 2000 pts
Sorcerer wings MoS, Lash
3 termis Heavyflamer, 2 combi-melta, powerfist
2*5 chosen 2 Melta, 2 flamer in Rhino combi-melta
3*5 berzekers chaos Icon in Rhino combi-melta
5 plague marines, 2 melta in Rhino combi-melta
2* 5 CSM in Rhino, Havoc launcher
2 oblits
5 Havoc 4 Autocanon
5 Havoc 4 Autocanon in Rhino, Havoc launcher
It is quite balanced list with both anti-infantry (5 blast) and anti-tank (2-4 Lascan + 8 AC) from range, a bulk of melta (6 melta + 8 combi-melta), some decent CC units (Zerks, termi). The key advantages being to be not outnumbered too much against other PA army with Decent infantry (50 Marines + 5 TEQ) and decent mech (9 rhino). It has also decent disruption ability with deep-striking, lash and outflank.
The problem I face when trying to create a list is the ranged elelment.

Havocs/oblits/preds give you 3 units. The havocs are probably going to be the most reliable of the 3, but equally the easiest to eat into their longterm output (killing 5 marines is not that tough). Compare this to regular marines... there are extra bits of pinkey plinkey that can be added without effort or added baggage. Single missiles are perfect for shooting speeders/raiders and their ilk and not getting them hurts.

Getting 6 anti-infantry and 6 anti-tank units is easy.

Troops isn't incredible tough. Cheap CSM (even if their options are boring), resilient PM and even NM and 'Zerkers could be used.

Transports aren't even that bad. Cheap rhinos with some okay options (S5 templates/combis).

The problem... nothing really ties them together. You get very little theme out of them and it doesn't seem very 'chaosy'. If you're happy with bland marines with some higgledy piggledy mixture of Gods, you can get a decent list.

Sadly, there are also very few 'gimmicks'. A la wolf scouts/reserve manipulation etc. Chosen can make your opponent think and offer some tough decisions for priority (can get within 'melta' range turn 1), but otherwise... nada.
1 reply · active 710 weeks ago
I think that the Chaos Space Marines featured in the 4th edition codex are very characterful. Basically the essence of the Chaos Space Marine is selfishness: the background Aaron Dembski-Bowden's Night Lords novels in particular are great at illustrating the complete breakdown of morale in the Traitor Legions, the conflicts over obesiences to the Chaos Gods, and the fact that Chaos is not a unified force so much as temporarily aligned self-interest.

So it's good that basic Chaos Space Marines (although they really need to come up with a better name for the unit, if only so that the Enhanced Warriors rule is easy for people to read and understand) have high leadership and no fancy morale rules like And They Shall Know No Fear: after all they're no longer brainwashed to die for their brothers and the mission: it's back to every man for himself.

Then you get the Icons, which are a neat idea for customizing your force so that you can have either a force associated with a single power, perhaps in varying stages down the Path of Chaos (unaligned, undivided, khorne/tzeentch/nurgle/slaanesh icon, cult unit).

With the option of a cheap heavy weapon, your Chaos Space Marine Battle squad (to borrow the name from the miniatures box) can bring your long ranged units up to 12, including the Heavy Weapon in the Chosen squad, and then the long ranged anti-infantry firepower of the Havoc Launcher, which is a surprisingly effect anti-infantry weapon.

Just off the top of my head I can think of a variety of characterful lists, such as a daemon-heavy list involving Daemon Princes, Possessed, Greater Daemons, Lesser Daemons, Possessed Tanks, and Daemons Engines. Another example are the cult-lists, and the Fabius Bile Enhanced Warriors list is pretty cool if you want S5 Fearless Chaos Space Marines. Okay, so you can't make pure Legion lists anymore, but the only legions that are still military organizations are goons like the Word Bearers (go go Dembski-Bowden!) and the Iron Warriors, with the monotheistic legions having long since broken up.

Don't get me wrong, I miss World Eaters Devastators from Rogue Trader, but these days I find I prefer to play my Chaos Space Marine army as standard Renegades rather than get bogged down in what someone else things that the World Eaters are supposed to be, in part because I can't stand the Berzerker concept, and in part because the aforementioned Night Lords novels remind me that the supposedly characterless blank slate of the Chaos Space Marine army means I can invest them with my own character and background.
One of the issues I've been trying to deal with in my admittedly mediocre CSM list is the lack of a relatively cheap scoring unit that can sit on a "home" objective and also have some effect on the overall outcome of the battle. In loyalist lists, this isn't too difficult to achieve. You can buy a full 10-man Tac Squad and combat squad it, leaving the demi-squad with the heavy sitting on your objective. You can buy a 5-man Tac Squad in a Razorback and park it on your objective. Or, you can buy a Scout Squad with sniper rifles and perhaps camo cloaks for objective-sitting. With CSMs, you can have a 10-man CSM Squad with an autocannon objective-sit, a 5-man CSM squad with a Rhino packing a havoc launcher, or spring for a small Noise Marine squad with a blastmaster. All of these are pricey and not super-effective, so I don't like them. I settled for cramming 5 CSMs in a Land Raider, treating them the way Eldar players treat Dire Avengers - like a vehicle upgrade to make the tank score.
Another difference from loyalist lists is CSM armies don't have a lot of efficient long range fire support outside of Heavy Support. Loyalist lists have some pretty good fire support in Fast Attack (Land Speeders), Elites (rifleman Dreads) and heck, even Troops (Razorbacks). What CSMs are rocking is better short-ranged firepower with dual specials in Troops units and special-spam in Chosen, and better assault potential with Troops largely all packing BP+ccw. It puts the CSM player in a much different type of game than the loyalist player, obliging the CSM player to close the distance more rapidly and get into that 12" envelope, where meltas, flamers, massed bolters, and asaults become feasable.
Once in that envelope, CSM players have to deal with things like THSS Terminators and Sternguard (those are the only close-ranged or assault units I'm thinking loyalist players are going to mess with very much). With the right tools in the kit, though, these shouldn't be a big problem to deal with. Sternies are going to die like regular mariness, and THSS Termies, while admittedly rock-hard, should get mullered by Berserkers assuming you can hit 5 Termies with anything like a full squad of Zerks and statistics obligingly behave themselves. With anything but Thousand Sons, if you can jump a loyalist unit with anything like equal numbers/points of a CSM unit of one stripe or another, the CSM player should come out on top. Getting there in the teeth of of the kind of firepower a loyalist army is going to pack is the tricky bit.

That's my thoughts on the matter, anyway.
Some thoughts on the 6+6 concept:

In Heavy Support, it's not to hard to field units that can be both anti-tank and anti-infantry as needed. Obviously, there's Oblits, but if you're looking for some armor saturation, you can field ACLC Preds with havoc launchers. They're not exactly super, but it seems like they don't suck. The 4 shots from a Pred along with a twin-linked S5 blast should have some impact on most infantry units.

Troops units can be both, too. I haven't used PMs or Zerks, so I can't speak on those units from personal experience. I have been using a CSM squad with a pair of meltaguns, though. They can zorch tanks with the meltaguns, krak and PF them if they have to (it can also be another bite at the apple if the meltas whiff, which is nice), or they can bolter infantry, or give them a pistol volley and charge. So, every CSM squad can be both an anti-tank and anti-infantry unit as needed.
GwvsJohn giving all the Chaos players (false) hope, how noble ^^

Good luck, looking forward to it although I admit that I have little hope. You can design a nice house, but without the proper materials you will never be able to build it.
This post got me thinking about Chaos. As noted above, they need to get close and then get messy. However, with no access to storm shields, power weapons/fists being impractically expensive on most squads, and terminators being crazy expensive, there arent that many options. so i've tried 2 2k lists. I'm gonna give them a shot on vassal and see what happens. I like having higher initiative, so i went with slaneesh on my CC units. I love the tzeentch Bolt of Change, its like a 24" face-slap. But, psychics are so freakin expensive in this codex, and with hoods running around i figured why bother. WIth these lists, the vehicles go foward, the IC's sharing rides with someone who matches their role, the raptors behind the vehicles, and the preds covering the flanks. Have at it!

ATTEMPT 1

chaos lord: slanesh, combi, dual lclaws
2x5 termies: slanesh, x4 combies, x1 hflamer:
2x1 LR:
4x5 chaos marines: x1 melta:
2x1 rhino
2x5 raptors: slanesh, x2 melta, champion/powerfist, x1 flamer
3x1 pred: ac/las

ATTEMPT 2

chaos lord: slanesh, dual lclaws
3x6 chosen: slanesh, x3 pw, x2 melta, champion/pfist
3x1 rhino: combi-weapon
4x5 chaos marines: x1 melta
2x1 rhino:combi-weapon
2x5 raptors: slanesh, x2 melta, champion/powerfist (one squad w/ flamer)
3x1 pred: aclc:
1 reply · active 710 weeks ago
brotheroracle's avatar

brotheroracle · 710 weeks ago

Chaos Terminators Crazy expensive? I mean the 30 point chaos termi isnt as good as the 33 point WG termi but crazy expensive I think not.
In regards to ICs, I've been finding the Mark of Tzeench to be the most valuable of the 4. It increases the invulnerable save, which is beneficial right off the bat. It allows access to the disc of Tzeench, which is the only one of the 4 steeds that allow the IC to operate with a squad of any kind from the rest of the army list - specifically Raptors. The disc is like a jump pack that grants an extra attack. A Sorceror can then pack Bolt of Change and an extra power, or a Lord can tote a Deathscreamer, granting a good shooting attack along with CC goodness, and if you flub the roll the invulnerable save you have to take is a better one than with any of the other marks.
I mentioned Raptors, so I want to talk about them a bit. I know Raptors are supposed to suck and all, but I've been using a squad of them, and I've been finding them pretty effective. I suppose I should use them with meltaguns, but I have them toting flamers to clear out big squads in cover. I also gave them the Icon of Khorne, which makes them at least resemble a real assault unit. With 4 attacks on the charge and jump packs to ensure they're going to be the ones charging, they generally do pretty well in assault.
Chaos was the army I started when I got in to this game (back at the end of 3rd edition), had been playing them constantly up until last year, when I started a renegade logan wing army (I love terminators).

I loved nurgle, as I mainly played vs imperial guard, and T5 is just great vs them, however while the latest codex wasn't that bad, it was terrible compared to the previous edition (as I'm sure everyone knows). I was doing ok with a death guard themed force, but I found it boring as my personal restrictions on what I could take limited me greatly.
At 1500 I took
Prince, mark of nurgle, wings, warptime
2x7 plague marines, powerfist combi flamer champ, 2 melta, one of them in a rhino
7 plague marines, 2 melta, rhino
7 plague marines, 2 plasma, rhino
Landraider, demonic possession
Vindicator, demonic possession

to bring it up to 2000 I'd add 2x3 terminators with combi meltas. a second vindicator and 5 plague marines with 2 plasma, swap the plasma on the 4th squad to melta and add in icon's to the champs.

Not perfect, and very, very short range, but the 2 terminator squads help provide "ranged" anti tank and a contest/distract unit.
brotheroracle's avatar

brotheroracle · 710 weeks ago

I still think that the 115 point 3 terminators with a reaper is a good and cheap way to get some ranged firepower out of the elite slot. A twin-linked auto cannon that moves and fires? Sold. Sure a dread is about the same amount but never have to worry about not shooting or shooting the wrong thing. (No matter how your group plays crazed.)
well me and my brother play 40k and our favourite army is csm. We always play at 1500p and at these points chaos is quite good, We exchange taking chaos or loyalists-GK, black templars or vanilla, and one of our strongest lists at these points in

2x Nurgle DP w/ WT
6 PM with melta, rhino
6 PM with plasma, rhino
8 berzerkers w/ fist, rhino
6 oblits

They just want to get stuck in and tear enemies to pieces, they beat most most marines, except a very cc oriented GK list, with lots of purifiers and termies. The other list they struggle with is orks, where the weak points of chaos show- no throw away melta or cheap suppresion fire, when the enemy throws half a dozen trukks with a 4+ cover save in your face, the six lascannons off the oblits just don't cut it. At higher points, chaos gets progressively worse, as we run out of good things to take, I mena, we can't have 3 or 4 nurgle WT daemon princes can we??

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