
I just need to accept it. The only 40k army I care about is Chaos Space Marines. And frankly, can you blame me? Horus, traitoris extremis, the Long War, 10,000 year old blood soaked reavers, plus the power armor and bolt guns that make the 40k universe run. Chaos Space Marines are bad ass. They're the army I most enjoy playing, so I'm going to play them. However, I also like to win. This creates a conundrum as according to the interwebs, CSM are le suck. This is not acceptable. We need to find a way to fix it or work around it. So, we're going to shift focus on the Chaos Codex review and try to work on building a competitive CSM force. As much fun as it is to make fun of Fabius Bile and the Thousand Sons, I will be reviewing only viable options until we exhaust all of them. The focus will be on how these units fit into a competitive army. This post will lay down the basics on how to build a competitive army in general with a leaning toward my beloved traitors.
If you're talking about how to build a competitive army, and you're on the internet, you really need to at least mention Stelek. The majority of what I know about making a list I learned from reading his site. Whether you agree with his style or not, he is a top notch list-builder and he comes up with a lot of out of the box competitive builds. I think he is able to do this because he has a "backwards" approach to list-building. Rather than read a new codex, find a cool/effective unit and figure out how to use it in an army, he comes up with the army he wants to build first, then finds units that fit that army.
So now the question becomes, what do we need to build a competitive army. Amazingly, Stelek just lays it out for us in a seemingly throwaway post a while back. I'm going to expand on what he mentions there on what i think he means and incorporate some other concepts that we all are (or should be) familiar with.
"Have balanced firepower, aka a variety of infantry and mechanized?" This could be interpreted as bringing both infantry and mechanized in your army, but I think he means bringing both anti-troop and anti-mech firepower. And you need to bring enough of both. Green tide lists suck, but if your army only has lascannons and no anti-troop, being able to kill 12 Chimeras in 6 turns won't help a bit and you'll lose. This point is further stressed in the "6+6" concept, which says, at 2000 points, you need 6 dedicated anti-tank units and 6 dedicated anti-infantry units. I can already hear you protesting, "But GWvsJohn, what about duality?" Fear not little ones, duality is still important. Take Long Fangs for example. Everyone brings Missile Launcher Fangs, not Lascannon Fangs. Why? It's not solely because they're 15 points more, because 15 points for +1 S and ap2 is actually not a bad deal. It's also because that extra 15 points prevents you from firing frag missiles, which aren't amazing, but can cause some damage late game when enemy infantry is huddled in the wrecks of their transports. So, to summarize, dual units are better than single purpose units, but every unit needs a purpose, and you need 6 infantry focused units and 6 mech focused units.
"Can you bring mech?" Which really needs the follow-up sentence, "because if you can, you should." The benefits of mech have been expertly explained throughout 3++, so I'm going to assume you're all familiar. I do want to mention the "1+1" concept that goes hand-in-hand with mech/transports. If you can bring a transport that projects threat of its own, you can, in effect, bring 2 units in one FoC slot. This seems to be one of the WAAC/net community favorites that GW actually endorses as the last 2 books both have really good 1+1 transports in Raiders, Venoms and Psybacks. Any unit that can take one of those probably should, even if they never intend to embark.
"Do you get melta?" Having ready access to melta, and especially fast melta is a HUGE advantage for a list. What is really comes down to is reliability. If you can't bring melta, you need another "reliable" way to pop tanks in order to compete. These includes non-Coteaz GK with a ton of s8 autocannons and s7 rending, Dark Eldar with dozens of s8 lances and Tau with their s10 rail guns.
"Is your range effective?" This is probably one of the concepts that trips players up the most. If you aren't projecting threat from turn 1, you are in trouble. It's a problem for many GK (and why everyone brings Psyflemen), Vulkan, Orks, Nids, and especially our boys in spikes, the Chaos Space Marines.
"Do your troops not suck?" When 5e first hit, it was all troops all the time, then pendulum swung back and it was "min troops, kill everything" and now it's heading back to more troops, but in a smarter way. 2/3 of the book missions have objectives and most good tourney missions will have 3+ objectives. That doesn't mean take 6 and call it a day, you need to be smart and efficient. Multiple, smaller troops are better than fewer, bigger troops. Keep 6+6 and 1+1 in mind. And now we reach Stelek's final adding rule, "4+2" The best lists will have 4 troops choices that move forward, control midfield and threaten far objectives and 2 troops choices that sit back, protect your fire base and control home objectives. Remember, this isn't a hard and fast rule. If you have tough troops choices like a full 10-man tactical squad in a rhino, you probably don't need 4 to threaten midfield. If you have fast troops choices that can rapidly redeploy like DE in Raiders and BA in Razorbacks you can be more aggressive and pull them back later in the game.
"If you aren’t mech in any way, is your foot list actually effective?" There are very few lists with zero vehicles that can compete. Loganwing, SM Bikers, BA Jumpers, Deathwing and I think that's it. Pure foot Dark Eldar and Nids are borderline. Note that CSM are not on the list, so let's forget a Spikey Horde right now.
So that's it. Everything you need to make a competitive list laid out right in front of us by the master himself. Let's put it all together.
6 anti-tank units
6 anti-infantry units
6 troops, 4 to move forward, 2 to hang back
Mech
Long ranged weapons to project threat from turn 1
Melta to give me reliability in anti-tank
Transports that project their own threat
I think Chaos Space Marines can actually hit all the criteria. The problem is going to be the first 2. As you have seen in previous CSM reviews and you will continue to see in my further reviews, the problem with CSM units isn't usually the units themselves. It's their cost. Everything (with rare exception) in Codex Chaos Space Marines is overcosted and some things ridiculously so. In order to field a competitive CSM list, I'm going to have to be VERY frugal.
timff8 · 711 weeks ago
jasonwc 61p · 711 weeks ago
I have so many marines that the thought of making a Chaos Company doesn't worry much.
Coming up with a theme that fits the fluff of old proud warriors, unwilling to bend the knee to the Emperor, rather than the "grrr grrr, we're bad!" fluff of the modern Codex, would be pretty easy to do.
Daboarder · 711 weeks ago
For example, "is your range effective" as in do you have the big guns. this isn't as large an issue as you would think. Most modern codex's have the ability to operate effectively in the double tap range right off the but. this is because while they can lack long range support pretty much all the new books have plenty of ways of making lists that mitigate a lack of range with extreme mobility in some way or another.
Overall your principals are sound but I wouldn't read to much into what stelek says.....remember this is the man who spent 3 months touting "the tyranid codex will change the way you play" sorry mate all it did was re-enforce the 5th edition environment.
Nurglitch · 711 weeks ago
A proper strategy in Warhammer 40,000 involves establishing how the game will be won (or at least not lost...) and working back from game turn 7 through the time and space to the materials you will need in your list to implement your strategy.
There are three ways that the game is won: capturing the most objectives, scoring the most kill-points, and tabling the opposing player's army. In other words, you need to outplay the other player, rather than bring a particular kind of list and hope you roll lucky.
Random · 711 weeks ago
He has done so much for the competitive community, and you want to write the man off just because he has a sailor mouth? Shit this just boggles my mind how insular you two must be.
LordRao · 711 weeks ago
Don't get me wrong, I agree with what you said, I just don't see it as anything other than what Stelek is saying.
mad-doc · 711 weeks ago
My CSM army is parked on the shelf and sometimes is used as a proxy for actual good codices. The next time i play them as CSM is when the new book hits the stores. Before that? No point, sadly.
The whole decision making process for a CSM army:
Do i take a HQ that dies when the enemy looks funny at it because a 3+/5+ is not enough or one that needs to hide in one of our oh so cheap troops selections.
For elite do i want to have serious rules discussion with my opponent if yes choose a dread and argue about fire frenzy if not either choose suicide melta in a rhino or for deepstriking.
For troops should my troops have two melta and cost a lot or do you prefer cheap melta but shitty or no melta at all and a ml for 140 points or you can get plasma pistols on choppy dudes that can take rhinos.
Fast attack .... yeah funny.
As hs:
Do you want overpriced Devatators, Preds or a walker that does not know what it wants and has armor 12? You could take oblits and shoot up to three lascannons on three targets. Ok you can have 9 and still shoot on 3 targets for 450 points.
I tried it for a long time and as soon as some one brings a real army you are in for a sad time of walking and trying to pull draw barring shitty dice.
willydstyle's comment nails it.
"He played well, but I was totally outclassed as soon as I hit the table."
TheWolfsLunch 61p · 710 weeks ago
Unfortunately this is too true.
infernosolarc · 711 weeks ago
Nurgle Winged Daemon Prince
Nurgle Winged Daemon Prince
2 X 5 Noise Marines, BlastMaster Rhino, Havoc Missle Launcher
4 x 5 CSM MeltaGun, Champion, Combi-Melta, Rhino, Combi-Melta
1 x 3 Obliterator
2 x 2 Obliterator
4 dedicated Anti-Troop - (DPs and Noise Marines)
4 dedicated Anti-Tank - CSM
3 Long Range Switch Hitters - Oblits
12 Melta Guns, 2 Monsterous Creatures, 4 blasts, and 7 Obliterators
Pinning for use against Hordes.
willydstyle · 711 weeks ago
Sethis · 711 weeks ago
mad-doc · 711 weeks ago
willydstyle · 710 weeks ago
Infernosolarc · 710 weeks ago
Lootas, any 'Nids outside of Synapse, some IG sometimes.
Really though, the only nice thing about the blastmasters being pinning is that occasionally you can pin a squad and spread the fire power around, rather then be forced to shoot one squad to death and leave another untouched. Much like vehicle suppression.
And, yeah, Noise Marines aren't the best, they are just the best "+2" troops we have, IMHO.
willydstyle · 710 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 710 weeks ago
-You aren't projecting a lot of early threat. Seven Oblits and two Blastmasters at 1850 is not very much ranged firepower- certainly, it could be worse, but it means that you're relying on those units a lot, and it isn't terribly hard to kill or disable them.Not easy, either (as opposed to, say, Lootas), but it will only take a few Lascannon hits to seriously degrade your firepower. That means you're committed to playing the close-in game, which leads us into...
-Your troops are gonna be in the line of fire. It's the problem every CSM list has, because they HAVE to get their troops in point-blank to deploy Meltaguns and actually kill enemy tanks, as opposed to getting those 1-3 damage results each turn the Oblits contribute. SW can get away with this because it can field large numbers of of troops (or troop units) that are more resilient and simultaneously have other strong threats backing them up, like Speeders, TWC, Long Fangs, etc. CSM can't draw heat off its troops as effectively, and as a result, they will die a lot more.
-Daemon Princes are decent, but speaking as a Tyranid Player, S6/T6 just ain't no thang. Sure, it can shrug off small arms fire and is pretty fast, but Power Fists, Missile Launchers, etc, will still make it cry. Are they the best choice? Probably. Are they a saving grace for the codex? Definitely not.
I think the list looks pretty decent and does about as much as it can with the book, but in the end CSM is just a weak book. It does what others do, but more expensive and worse.
WestRider · 711 weeks ago
willydstyle · 711 weeks ago
brotheroracle · 711 weeks ago
2 Daemon Prince Wings MoT, BoC
2x3 Terminators with reaper auto cannon
5 Plague Marines double plasma, rhino, Havok
5 CSM Flamer, champ power weapon. Rhino, havok
4x5 CSM Melta, champ,combi, rhino+combi (a trend perhaps)
3x Dakka preds
6 Dedicated Anti Tank, CSM with melta 2 MoTPrinces
2 Dedicated Anti transport (Terminator)
5 anti infantry with the preds pulling sone anti transport duties
Grand Master Raziel · 711 weeks ago
G_M_Raziel 32p · 711 weeks ago
Lord: Mark of Tzeench, Disc of Tzeench, Tzeench daemon weapon
Dreadnought: twin linked autocannon, heavy flamer
CSM Squad: 9 CSMs+Aspiring Champion, 2 meltaguns, powerfist
Rhino
CSM Squad: 5 CSMs
Thousand Sons Squad: 5 Thousand Sons+Aspiring Sorceror with bolt of change (or, as I play them, my Inqy Lord's acoloyte and his retinue of zombie Ultramarines)
Lesser Daemon Pack: 5 LDs
Raptor Squad: 9 Raptors + Aspiring Champion: power fist, 2 flamers, Icon of Khorne
Land Raider with daemonic possession
ACLC Predator
To bring it up to 2000pts, I'm adding another ACLC Pred and a Dreadnought with 2 DCCWs, HF, and extra armor
Anon From Russia · 711 weeks ago
It's not competetive anymore/
willydstyle · 710 weeks ago
pop421 · 711 weeks ago
Sorcerer wings MoS, Lash
3 termis Heavyflamer, 2 combi-melta, powerfist
2*5 chosen 2 Melta, 2 flamer in Rhino combi-melta
3*5 berzekers chaos Icon in Rhino combi-melta
5 plague marines, 2 melta in Rhino combi-melta
2* 5 CSM in Rhino, Havoc launcher
2 oblits
5 Havoc 4 Autocanon
5 Havoc 4 Autocanon in Rhino, Havoc launcher
It is quite balanced list with both anti-infantry (5 blast) and anti-tank (2-4 Lascan + 8 AC) from range, a bulk of melta (6 melta + 8 combi-melta), some decent CC units (Zerks, termi). The key advantages being to be not outnumbered too much against other PA army with Decent infantry (50 Marines + 5 TEQ) and decent mech (9 rhino). It has also decent disruption ability with deep-striking, lash and outflank.
Bro_Lo 82p · 710 weeks ago
Havocs/oblits/preds give you 3 units. The havocs are probably going to be the most reliable of the 3, but equally the easiest to eat into their longterm output (killing 5 marines is not that tough). Compare this to regular marines... there are extra bits of pinkey plinkey that can be added without effort or added baggage. Single missiles are perfect for shooting speeders/raiders and their ilk and not getting them hurts.
Getting 6 anti-infantry and 6 anti-tank units is easy.
Troops isn't incredible tough. Cheap CSM (even if their options are boring), resilient PM and even NM and 'Zerkers could be used.
Transports aren't even that bad. Cheap rhinos with some okay options (S5 templates/combis).
The problem... nothing really ties them together. You get very little theme out of them and it doesn't seem very 'chaosy'. If you're happy with bland marines with some higgledy piggledy mixture of Gods, you can get a decent list.
Sadly, there are also very few 'gimmicks'. A la wolf scouts/reserve manipulation etc. Chosen can make your opponent think and offer some tough decisions for priority (can get within 'melta' range turn 1), but otherwise... nada.
Nurglitch · 710 weeks ago
So it's good that basic Chaos Space Marines (although they really need to come up with a better name for the unit, if only so that the Enhanced Warriors rule is easy for people to read and understand) have high leadership and no fancy morale rules like And They Shall Know No Fear: after all they're no longer brainwashed to die for their brothers and the mission: it's back to every man for himself.
Then you get the Icons, which are a neat idea for customizing your force so that you can have either a force associated with a single power, perhaps in varying stages down the Path of Chaos (unaligned, undivided, khorne/tzeentch/nurgle/slaanesh icon, cult unit).
With the option of a cheap heavy weapon, your Chaos Space Marine Battle squad (to borrow the name from the miniatures box) can bring your long ranged units up to 12, including the Heavy Weapon in the Chosen squad, and then the long ranged anti-infantry firepower of the Havoc Launcher, which is a surprisingly effect anti-infantry weapon.
Just off the top of my head I can think of a variety of characterful lists, such as a daemon-heavy list involving Daemon Princes, Possessed, Greater Daemons, Lesser Daemons, Possessed Tanks, and Daemons Engines. Another example are the cult-lists, and the Fabius Bile Enhanced Warriors list is pretty cool if you want S5 Fearless Chaos Space Marines. Okay, so you can't make pure Legion lists anymore, but the only legions that are still military organizations are goons like the Word Bearers (go go Dembski-Bowden!) and the Iron Warriors, with the monotheistic legions having long since broken up.
Don't get me wrong, I miss World Eaters Devastators from Rogue Trader, but these days I find I prefer to play my Chaos Space Marine army as standard Renegades rather than get bogged down in what someone else things that the World Eaters are supposed to be, in part because I can't stand the Berzerker concept, and in part because the aforementioned Night Lords novels remind me that the supposedly characterless blank slate of the Chaos Space Marine army means I can invest them with my own character and background.
G_M_Raziel 32p · 710 weeks ago
G_M_Raziel 32p · 710 weeks ago
G_M_Raziel 32p · 710 weeks ago
That's my thoughts on the matter, anyway.
G_M_Raziel 32p · 710 weeks ago
In Heavy Support, it's not to hard to field units that can be both anti-tank and anti-infantry as needed. Obviously, there's Oblits, but if you're looking for some armor saturation, you can field ACLC Preds with havoc launchers. They're not exactly super, but it seems like they don't suck. The 4 shots from a Pred along with a twin-linked S5 blast should have some impact on most infantry units.
Troops units can be both, too. I haven't used PMs or Zerks, so I can't speak on those units from personal experience. I have been using a CSM squad with a pair of meltaguns, though. They can zorch tanks with the meltaguns, krak and PF them if they have to (it can also be another bite at the apple if the meltas whiff, which is nice), or they can bolter infantry, or give them a pistol volley and charge. So, every CSM squad can be both an anti-tank and anti-infantry unit as needed.
Zjoekov 74p · 710 weeks ago
Good luck, looking forward to it although I admit that I have little hope. You can design a nice house, but without the proper materials you will never be able to build it.
shas'el mike · 710 weeks ago
ATTEMPT 1
chaos lord: slanesh, combi, dual lclaws
2x5 termies: slanesh, x4 combies, x1 hflamer:
2x1 LR:
4x5 chaos marines: x1 melta:
2x1 rhino
2x5 raptors: slanesh, x2 melta, champion/powerfist, x1 flamer
3x1 pred: ac/las
ATTEMPT 2
chaos lord: slanesh, dual lclaws
3x6 chosen: slanesh, x3 pw, x2 melta, champion/pfist
3x1 rhino: combi-weapon
4x5 chaos marines: x1 melta
2x1 rhino:combi-weapon
2x5 raptors: slanesh, x2 melta, champion/powerfist (one squad w/ flamer)
3x1 pred: aclc:
brotheroracle · 710 weeks ago
G_M_Raziel 32p · 710 weeks ago
G_M_Raziel 32p · 710 weeks ago
nurglez · 710 weeks ago
I loved nurgle, as I mainly played vs imperial guard, and T5 is just great vs them, however while the latest codex wasn't that bad, it was terrible compared to the previous edition (as I'm sure everyone knows). I was doing ok with a death guard themed force, but I found it boring as my personal restrictions on what I could take limited me greatly.
At 1500 I took
Prince, mark of nurgle, wings, warptime
2x7 plague marines, powerfist combi flamer champ, 2 melta, one of them in a rhino
7 plague marines, 2 melta, rhino
7 plague marines, 2 plasma, rhino
Landraider, demonic possession
Vindicator, demonic possession
to bring it up to 2000 I'd add 2x3 terminators with combi meltas. a second vindicator and 5 plague marines with 2 plasma, swap the plasma on the 4th squad to melta and add in icon's to the champs.
Not perfect, and very, very short range, but the 2 terminator squads help provide "ranged" anti tank and a contest/distract unit.
brotheroracle · 710 weeks ago
khurdur · 709 weeks ago
2x Nurgle DP w/ WT
6 PM with melta, rhino
6 PM with plasma, rhino
8 berzerkers w/ fist, rhino
6 oblits
They just want to get stuck in and tear enemies to pieces, they beat most most marines, except a very cc oriented GK list, with lots of purifiers and termies. The other list they struggle with is orks, where the weak points of chaos show- no throw away melta or cheap suppresion fire, when the enemy throws half a dozen trukks with a 4+ cover save in your face, the six lascannons off the oblits just don't cut it. At higher points, chaos gets progressively worse, as we run out of good things to take, I mena, we can't have 3 or 4 nurgle WT daemon princes can we??