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Thursday, September 22, 2011

"That isn't fluffy for your army."



This is one of the worst things you can hear from someone else in the game (aside from "You're cheating" or some of the strings of obscenities) because it's not just rude, presumptuous, and self-righteous, it's also outright wrong.

There is no "right" fluff for an army. A lot of people get up in arms about things like being able to field a ton of Purifiers or having Grey Knights and Daemonhosts in the same army, but I think that's very wrongheaded and harms the hobby as a whole. Maybe my Purifiers or Daemonhosts represent something else; or maybe my GK are part of a secret order of Purifiers that keeps itself hidden from the rest of the Imperium and thus aren't part of the small contingent that is name in the GK codex. Or maybe I just want to play some damn Purifiers and stop having a hissy fit, you big babby.

Everyone has a right to dictate their own army fluff; that's part of the great thing about 40K, because it's set in a universe so fantastically large that even all of the cannon fluff we've seen so far doesn't even scratch the surface of what the Imperium contains. There are TRILLIONS of people in the Imperium, and a thousand (or so) Marine chapters; I think there have been maybe a hundred named planets and a similar number of official chapters. There is room for whatever wacky idea you see fit to put down on paper, if you so please.

So why is it some people insist on telling you what is and isn't "right" for your army? If I like Thunderwolves, or Purifiers, or Trygons, or Razorbacks, or Nobz, or whatever thing I have focused on, who are you to tell me that I'm violating the fluff? Sure, most Space Wolf bands probably aren't dragging around fifteen giant mutant space puppies, but who knows, maybe one of them is? It's not like those guys are anal-retentive like the Ultras are. Maybe my Guard regiment consists of only the best of the best from several planets who have been organized into an elite human strike force to complement the usual "overwhelming numbers" style of regular Guard regiments? Schaeffer's Last Chancers, anyone? Don't tell me all Veterans is "unfluffy," because that's bullshit; anything can be fluffy if you want it to be.

I'm not saying you have to like it; it's perfectly understandable if someone else's view of an army doesn't mesh with your own. One of the Marine players in my area thinks all-bike armies are stupid and shouldn't exist, even though they're written right into the Codex Astartes. And that's entirely within his rights, too- you aren't required to like anything. But try to exercise a little bit of tact when someone else brings an army that doesn't suit your personal tastes, okay? I totally don't get why anyone would want to play Footdar because I think it's about the dumbest thing in the world, but it's their choice to do so. If someone spends the money and time to make an army, let them; it's not yours or anyone else's place to dictate the army they want to play.

And yes, not everyone who plays an army will have a deep and extensively detailed backstory for it; that's fine, too. Some people enjoy doing that, some people don't. Some people like to name their models, some people just wanna play Future Chess With Tanks. Neither way is right or wrong, they're just different from each other. If someone asks you for advice on how to make their fluff more interesting- or their list more competitive- sure, go ahead and give it, but don't burst in unasked and inform them that their army is bad and they should feel bad. Let them enjoy this hobby as they please, just as you do.

Comments (95)

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I think we've seen with the last few codexes that pretty much anything can happen in the fluff, lol.
I actually really enjoy "fluffy" armies when a player focuses on one or two units. What raises my eye brow is when those one or two units happen to turn their list into what is obviously something they ripped off the internet that makes them so called "power gamers". In some ways this goes along with your last post AP. For example, a Guard list where someone decides to have two units of Ogryns and two units of Ratlings would be cool as "fluffy", where as one that has 4 units of "meltavets" instead...then they try to act like it's "fluff" would annoy me. However I'd be less annoyed if those 4 units of vets and their transports were fully painted along with the rest of their army. Then I would believe they care about fluff, but usually, people who run lists like that don't bother to paint their army, then they try to talk about "fluff". I'm not buying. I totally agree with you about anything can be fluffy, but I think there are imposters out there.
9 replies · active 706 weeks ago
i think the point AbusePuppy was making is not that it is okay for people who have competetive armies or netlists to say that their armylist is based on fluff. The point is that it's a dick-thing to do to go up to someone with a competetive army or even net-list and say "hey, your army is totally unfluffy"

the difference is small, but qutie important, i think.
Totally. I suppose I'm just pointing out one point of contrast which is that while I totally agree with what he is saying, there are people who abuse this. Ultimately though kildash, I feel that both you and AP are correct in saying it's a dick move to say "your army is unfluffy", (it's also very pointless) the better move of course is to just not play those people.
I think Grey Knights has taken the "ignore the fluff to power-game" to whole new levels really. Just for example, I've seen armys using 30+ grey knight purifiers or 15+ paladins that's just not going to happen... Those groups are very scarce and very rare.
I refuse to believe you missed his point...
See I say, paint them up real nice, give them some unique colors, banners, etc. then I'll buy it, I'll enjoy getting detroyed by you 30+ Purifiers. To me, it makes all the difference in the world, and it shows me two things. 1.) You actually gave your "fluff" some thought and 2.) you're not going to just sell these models as soon as Necrons come out and/or wait for whatever Space Marine codex comes out next and just tell me your unpainted models are the latest codex. It tells me you're commited to GKs, you beleive in this fluff and you want to embrace it to the point you will paint your army to show others that. Just my thoughts on this of course.
TheDuke07's avatar

TheDuke07 · 706 weeks ago

I find it hard to believe that you getting blown up by a pretty army is going to make you feel any better than getting blown up by a codex hopping powergamer or whatever. You'll just find another excuse to be upset.
But I'm not upset!
Duh!!!!!!!!! Read much?
Roland Durendal's avatar

Roland Durendal · 706 weeks ago

100% super duper agree with ya on this. I play an Elite Veteran run Elysian army, is that unfluffy because I run all Vets? Hell no, cuz ya know in the REAL WORLD most elite units are comprised of...wait for it....Vets. Ergo why the 5th Elysian Long Range Reconnaissance Battalion has several Company's (4 to be exact) all of which have a heavy veteran tilt (actually now that I think of it...1 Company is all Vets representing the best of the best in Vets, the other 3 have some Vet squads mixed in with a platoon or 2 of regular guys).

Anyways.....excellent article.
2 replies · active 706 weeks ago
Anyone who accuses a FW list for being a powergamer and ignoring the fluff is not only wrong, but incredibly stupid.
Roland Durendal's avatar

Roland Durendal · 706 weeks ago

Haha I agree. But hey, people are stupid.
I don't think the problem is people calling armies unfluffy, I think the problem is people justifying the way they build their army as "fluffy" when it's clearly not. I will continue to disagree that purifier heavy armies are fluffy, because they aren't. Not when the codex itself says how rare they are.

I think you're actually misinterpreting the term. Fluffy is according to the games storyline. Making up your own ideas/story to justify something makes it YOUR fluff, not fluffy.
8 replies · active 705 weeks ago
Pro Fluffer's avatar

Pro Fluffer · 706 weeks ago

I think this is a good point. Now, it is still rude to point this out just for the sake of it but if it up for discussion, which isn't that rare since people who find the need to justify their selection through convoluted fluff tends to like to point out how "fluffy" they are, I would state factors I find unreasonable or elements that damages the suspension of disbelief *in their fluff* and why.

I wouldn't criticise the list since I tend to agree that you now have to work quite hard to make anything close to unfluffy within the armylists but if people have written background and wants to discuss it that's just great,now this might mean I tell them that certain areas are weak but that is part of a discussion.
That's a good point. It's the difference between Canon and Fanfic in literary circles. No-one is saying that Fanfic shouldn't be allowed, or that people who write Fanfic are all morons, but it is important to note that Fanfic is NOT Canon.

If you can find an esoteric way to explain why you have ~15 Long Fangs (Vets), ~8 Wolf Guard (Vets), ~3 TWCav (Vets), ~5 Scouts (Vets) and ~40 Grey Hunters (Experienced) yet NO new recruits of any kind (Blood/Sky/BikeClaws) then that's great. Just so you're not labouring under the delusion that such an army is either normal or what the army book says is commonplace.
Do... Space Wolves never bring only hardcore experienced guys to the battlefield? They ALWAYS have raw recruits that are ready and willing to die on the front lines, even in battles that recruits should not be be in from a strategic battle standpoint?

Does Crowe never lead his own group of Purifiers out to the battlefield to gain some relic of incredible power that other GKs can't handle? Is it not possible that maybe, just MAYBE, the fact that the guy leading the Purifier order, presumably a dude with high rank and some importance to the Grey Knights, wouldn't have 30 Purfiers to go along with him into battle? Are you seriously saying that in the ENTIRE IMPERIUM, a setting of trillions of people across thousands of planets, that there is less then 30 Purifiers available for a battle that their order's leader is leading?
Well... Yes I am. It says in the codex just how few there are. "a few score" to quote it. Yes, in the trillions of people there are only 1000 ultramarines. There aren't random ultramarine chapters all over the galaxy. Just like Grey Knights or whatever other marine chapter.

I am an advocate of letting people play whatever they want. What I frown upon, as mentioned, is people calling it fluffy. It isn't. It's game efficient. Too many people are afraid to admit they take stuff for the rules and disguise their guilt in fluff.
The point of the article was that it can be both. What many people call "fluffy" armies are usually just as gross a violation of the cannon as "competitive" armies.
Roland Durendal's avatar

Roland Durendal · 706 weeks ago

It could be commonplace, especially in the SW background. How man "Lost" Great Company's of the SW are there? A lot presumably and the fact that they never give us a definite answer allows the player to use creative license (to some extent) to make such a Company.

Example. My SW army, the "Varyags of Miklagaard VII" is based off of an Amon Amarth song and the historical Varangian Guard of the Byzantine Empire. The "fluff" is simple (or rather hhere's the dumbed down short version for everyone), they were on a Crusade and answered a planet's call for help. They came, helped fight off one Xenos/heretical group (which took many many years) only to have the decades of bloodshed attract an even bigger threat (Orks). Fast forward, after decades (or nearly a century) of constant war for this small backwater planet, all the original Blood Claws are dead or are now Grey Hunters, all the original Grey Hunters are now Long Fangs, a few became Wolf Scouts, and of all the original Wolf Guard, only 5 remain. Oh and to drive home the "we're isolated and lost working with the IG" slant, all the LF's (except for like 6) have IG Missile Launcher Conversions. Why? Because they have no access anymore to Astartes ML's and had to make due with what the Guard had.

Boom. Fluff consistent with the Canon.
I find one flaw in your fluff.

In any Black Library novel I care to recall, Space Marines always win their engagements by the end of the first night. *rolls eyes*
willydstyle's avatar

willydstyle · 705 weeks ago

There's a lot of room in the universe for fluff to justify whatever army list you want to make. I applaud this.
I did a post on my blog last year that Abusepuppy commented on called 'Veterans: You're Running Them Wrong!". Probably a poor title choice, but that's besides the point. My comments about how an all Guard Vet army isn't fluffy was influenced by a ex-friend complaining about the Guard. I don't know what I was thinking.
I totally agree with Abusepuppy here though. No one should bug you on how to run your army. You want to run an all Vet guard army? Go for it! All Thousand Sons? Go for it too. Its your game, play it how YOU want to play it.

Granesh
1 reply · active 706 weeks ago
I do remember that post. Don't worry, mang, we all say the wrong thing sometimes; if you can admit it, that's what makes you a good person (as opposed to, you know, Stellie.)
Andy Akins's avatar

Andy Akins · 706 weeks ago

AbusePuppy, I agree 100%

And I'm one of those "fluffy" army guys. I only play armies that -I- feel are fluffy. But I would never tell someone else how to build/play their army.
Ho boy is this a hornet's nest of monkeys you've opened up here.

I don't think you have to play a 'fluffy' army list. For example, I play a DoA Blood Angels list; it's very fluffy, because it's a classic image and I play it in a non-cookie-cutter fashion.
A non-fluffy list would be someone playing Blood Angels with all Tactical marines sitting back-field with a single giant squad of Death Company sitting back-field in a LRC, just so you can field a whole crap-ton of dreadnoughts.
Can you play a non-fluffy list? Sure. Why not. But, don't pretend you're playing the army, when all you're doing is playing the codex.

Do you see what I'm saying? I don't care at all if you play a 'non-fluffy' list in the sense that you're using a list that isn't what the book is best at (i.e. Blood Angels playing a foot-based shooting army). But, I do care if you're playing a codex so you can abuse some design kinks (Dude! If I buy a box of Death Company, I can field, like, eight dreadnoughts if I count my guys as Blood Angels! Score!).
29 replies · active 705 weeks ago
So, what you're saying is, in 10,000 years across the entire galaxy there has never been a gathering of 30 Blood Angels Tactical Marines, 10 Death Company, their transports and 8 Dreadnoughts in one place. Ever.

It boggles the mind.

I mean, shit, why even have options in a Codex? Blood Angels only use Assault Marines, Space Wolves only use Blood Claws and Imperial Guard only use hordes of Conscripts. Damn, I just wrote 3 fluffy Codices. I'm awesome.
No.
That's not what I am saying.

Please stop speaking to me as though I am a douchebag.

What I'm saying is that If you're playing an army of all tactical marines sitting back-field with a token unit of DC so you can take DC dreadnoughts with your Blue-book-geared marines, you're not playing Blood Angels. You could play the same army and still be playing Blood Angels if you purchased those units to work together as a cohesive army, not playing the Blood Angels codex JUST so you can field more dreadnoughts.

I use Tactical marines in my Blood Angels army. I have 20 of them and only 5 assault marines in one of my 2K lists. I'm not saying those units aren't fluffy. It's all about HOW and WHY you are using them.

Actually, I would kind of like to see a Wolves army that runs Blood Claws, or a Guard Army that runs Conscripts. I'm the only person I know that even HAS conscripts at my FLGS.
Well, Conscripts are supposed to be an "out of the ordinary" thing for IG, as opposed to the rank-and-file IG troopers. But I know three guys (out of like twenty or something) that LOVE Conscripts, so I think it's just one of those things that's totally random. Some people love a unit, others don't.

See, the problem I have with "you're not playing Blood Angels" is that's not really a fair thing to say from the fluff. I mean, okay, if you call them Blood Angels and paint them like BA then sure, that's not BA combat doctrine- but shit, if you wanna be that specific, all of the leaders of the companies of BA are named, so you can't bring a "generic" captain without violating fluff. Assuming you're playing your "own" chapter, you can have any fluff you want. Games Workshop is very specific about that: anything you want can be right by the fluff, because what they give you is intentionally only a small part of it. It's not _canon_, but that's not the same thing at all.
That's absolutely true that you technically can't bring a 'generic' unnamed captain if you're playing Blood Angels, otherwise you're playing a successor chapter. Regardless though, you are playing a successor chapter, and they should still fight in a VERY similar manner to their parent.

I feel I should re-word what I said previously.
It's not so much that I think you're not playing "Blood Angels" when you play that way. I think what I mean, more accurately, is that I feel 'if you're playing an army like that, why did you choose Blood Angels?'
There absolutely are marine armies like the example I gave. But, it is FAR more likely that they belong to a different chapter. And, hell, that chapter probably has units and/or rules that make that formation work better.
If you're playing an army with 8 Dreads, what other army are you playing OTHER than Blood Angels? Fluff or otherwise, the Codex for other armies limits you to fewer Dreads.
THIS I DO REALIZE!!!!

That's not the point. For argument's sake, please replace my previous mention of Dreadnoughts with 6, rather than 8.
That's still an army that is impossible to field with anyone but BA. Land Raider + 6 Dreads is more than you can fit into SM. :P

That aside, why are you complaining? Is it the Tacticals that bother you, or the Dreads? What's the problem here? Despite what most lists will tell you, Blood Angels actually have three times as many Tactical Marines as Assault Marines, so I think the "crazy" list you're mentioning is actually closer to fluff than virtually any BA list you can find floating around out there.
Okay, entire point boiled down:

I find it silly to play Blood Angels just because they can field more dreadnoughts.
See, and I don't have any problem with that, because you don't HAVE to like your opponent's reason for picking their army. But I do think you need to be willing to _respect_ their choice even if you disagree with or don't understand it, because they have just as much right to be a part of the hobby as anyone.

When someone tells me that they picked tri-Monolith Necrons "because the army is so powerful," I can basically do nothing but stare at them like they have sprouted an extra head. Likewise, if they bring a corrupted SoB army to the table, I am probably going to consider them a creepy fuck that I don't want to talk to any more than I have to. Even so, both of those people have every right to play the game if they so choose and my opinions of their fluff, rules, and personality do not change that. I am not going to say to their face that their army is stupid and I hate it- and I think that level of respect should be universal in the hobby. The fact that it is not is a huge strike against many of us as gamers.
>. Regardless though, you are playing a successor chapter, and they should still fight in a VERY similar manner to their parent.

Ultramarines. Mortifactors. Point disproven.

Many successor chapters do not fight in a similar manner to their parent.

>if you're playing an army like that, why did you choose Blood Angels?'
Because they like the Blood Angels fluff and/or paint job? Because they like the army playstyle? Because they wanted to be able to field 7+ Dreads? Because they play BA anyways and this army is an alternate for their main? There's tons of entirely valid reasons.

I think you're being overly-restrictive in your view of the fluff. By your measure, 99% of players aren't playing fluffy armies, which I think is well past the point at which you need to re-evaluate how you are making your assessments.
Of course he isn't saying that. What I believe he is saying is that such a list would be a once in a millennia occurrence, and for fluff purposes should be avoided outside of a campaign where chance results in such a deployment. But regular games of 40K, it's just not probable, even for the already rare deployment of space marines.

Fluffy lists are lists that are likely to happen in universe, so seeing a bunch of BA Tacs wouldn't be unfluffy, it just wouldn't play to their theme. On the other hand, seeing 40 Purifiers, Leafblower lists, or Razorwolf isn't fluffy because they're not going to occur outside of highly unusual circumstances that require long explanations.

However, I always assign some blame to codex writers who make fluffy lists weaker than stranger non-fluffy lists, or make previously impossible or ridiculous lists possible, like the Demonhosts with GKs mentioned earlier. Its not a player's fault if they want a good list and they don't happen to be terribly fluffy.
>What I believe he is saying is that such a list would be a once in a millennia occurrence, and for fluff purposes should be avoided outside of a campaign where chance results in such a deployment. But regular games of 40K, it's just not probable, even for the already rare deployment of space marines.

Eh. Why not just call it a strike force? I mean, every game of 40K is "improbable" because they usually involve grand personalities fighting each other. How many times has Marneus Calgar punched Abaddon to death in the fluff? Zero, as far as I'm aware, but it still happens on the table all the time.

>daemonhosts and GK
For crying out loud...
Or maybe then we should stop seeing Draigo in every other GK list, as he is all of ONE guy in the entire galaxy?
It is worth nothing that there are more Blood Angels players on earth then there are actual Blood Angel members in the entire Imperium. There's only 1000 guys! And I would bet good money that there is many more then that across this planet that play the army. This would likely to apply to most of the major Marine books, too.

Any time a Marine army fights a Marine army is incredibly improbable. Two Space Wolves? Sure, training exercise or whatever. But why are Ultramarines and Blood Angels even in the same warzone? They operate in totally different sectors of the galaxy, for the most part!

Tau are a great one. Any time you fight Tau, you are automaticlly in Tau space, way at the eastern Rim of the galaxy. Even if you are, say, Abbadon, who's Eye of Terror is near polar opposite of the Tau.

I don't get this mindset. I'll pick at your bad fluff as long as I can ignore the larger problems around this battle.
But 40 Purifiers, Leafblowers, and razorwolves ARE fluffly lists.

Let's consider: The most difficult one is Razorwolves. Why do the notoriously barbaric space wolves "Gunline it?" I always imagine them yelling, "COME AT ME, BRO!" and suddenly they seem more space-wolfy. And when you do come at them, they come at you right back.

Crap, that last sentence got away from me really fast. Moving on...

40 Purifiers. Extremely rare, yeah. So are ALL deployments of Grey Knights in the universe. And yet, time and again, pure Purifier forces are mentioned in the Codex. Or at least, several times. Heck, they make more sense than MOST builds, fluff-wise, as a super-elite cadre of the purest of the pure come to tackle some special, highly dangerous assignment.

And Leafblowers. Really? You think every Guard regiment is based around guys with angry flashlights rather than guys with artillery? If I was the governor of an imperial planet, I'd make sure my armies were nothing but leafblower lists and Vendetta spam. Screw lasguns, dude.
Seriously, I don't think there is a single list that cannot logically be thought of as fluffy.

Except bikes. I'm with that one guy, Puppy, they're pretty dumb :D
I really don't at all find Razorwolves fluffy. Their whole combat doctrine is engaging in front-line warfare on their feet. They WANT to wade into the enemy and finish them in melee combat. Razorwolves tend to, and I'm just speaking from my experience here, not do that. They tend to zoom around in their tanks and shoot stuff without stepping out of them except for a "well I already won, so let's do a charge last turn to pretend I'm a combat army" charge.

Rhino-mounted Wolves seems much more their thing fi you want to mech them up. Then you can zoom around to get to that feet-on-the-ground, face-pounding combat they love. Otherwise they're doing something that Russ would not have taught them to use as their go-to fighting style.

Admittedly, they might find it useful to play the Razorwolves tactics against certain enemies. But that should be a list you only play on occaision, not a list you field every time. Just like I have a min-maxed shooty Blood Angels force, which I only play every fourth game or so, because I know it's probably not the likely mode of battle they would elect to use.
Wait, so you play lists based on how often they see use in the imperium? By the fluff, you shouldn't even be playing Blood Angels, you should be playing Imperial Guard, and only break out the marines every 10 or 100 battles or so. And even moreso, your Blood Angels should probably have less than half their number. Like in Space Marine, where three dudes save a planet.

A fluffy army needn't be fluffy under EVERY SINGLE SITUATION (otherwise GW would sell lists, not codices), it just has to be something someone would logically field.

And for that last BA point, who's to say there isn't some BA captain who thinks, "Ya know, maybe the ultras got it right, since fluffily, Calgar IS my spiritual liege," and decided that his troops were better off using their bolters than their chainswords? If you have more fun with the shooty list, use it all the time! If not, don't, just do what ya do!
I don't have Imperial Guard (well, I do, but I don't have any functioning lists yet) so I can't do that.
My battles would be conducted within the allotted amount of battles marines generally have, not within the amount that all armies ever have.

Well, video games are video games. I'm FAR more okay with 3 marines saving a planet than ONE Master Chef(misspelling intentional). Although in Dawn of War it seems much more similar to the board game, where there are less marines than any other army,but you still have like 50 of them.

Everything ever I ever say about this game is a blanket statement. The fact that there will be exceptions, and that an exception is probably 20% of cases, is built-in to any statement I make. I never use absolute articles, or at least try not to (see?).
So I'm not saying that I'm right and everythign ever should be how I envision it. This is a general opinion of general modes of play. GERERAL, I SAY!
I partly agree with what you're saying and put forward that the game would be much better for it if Vanilla SM played best (or close to it) when they ran an army that looks >broadly< similar to this:

Captain/Libby/Chaplain
2-3 Tac Squads + Optional Transports
1 Assault Squad
1 Dev Squad
1 Dreadnought/Terminators/Land Raider
1 Misc unit (Bikes/Speeders/Predators/Vindicators/Scouts etc)

Because that's a balanced force that has amounts of stuff proportional to how the Ultramarine codex says they are fielded. That is how Vanilla Space Marines most commonly fight, ergo it should be the most common way to structure your army. Having more or less every Marine player view Tac Marines as a 400pt handicap while they load out on TH/SS Termies, Sternguard and Riflemen is not conducive to having what appears on the table match what is printed in the book.
BAM!

+1 Internet Cookie!
I don't think it's fluff-inappropriate for a Razorback with long-range weapons on it to soften the enemy up and then close in for the kill. That's... just intelligent strategy, as opposed to "durr marines smash dumb humans!"

Multimelta and Heavy Flamer variants charging in? Yeah, sure, that makes sense. Lascannon ones? Not so much.
But, their fluff IS that they eschew caution so they can get into torso-breaking range.
If you wan to drive your Razors around in a wagon-circle, fine, but your gusy should probably be out to actually do stuff.
I can't see any Space Wolf absolutley loving the idea of riding around in a kennel.
Roland Durendal's avatar

Roland Durendal · 706 weeks ago

Funny you should say that about the wolves....cuz in Game 7 at NOVA me and my opponent both played Wolves and that's ALL we kept yelling at each other....we though it was hilarious and we were in Space Wolf Viking mode...the people around us thought we were gonna go to blows.
All I can say is that at least you weren't yelling 'Team Jacob!' at Blood Angels players.
You say that like it would have been a bad thing..?
Of course not, Steel Legion, Elysians, and any number of the regiments listed in the 4th or 3rd edition codexes go against the basic description to some extent. But what I was talking about was the 3xVlaks/3xManticores+Vets+DH Inquisitor that was all the rage back in late '09 early '10. The army just isn't cohesive at all.

With the Purifiers, they're mentioned as being few in number, so having 40 or so show up to clean up some Tau just seems dumb. But really, that was more of an example than anything, I've taken to basically ignoring the fluff in 5th edition books anyways, so new stuff like Purifiers just isn't getting me angry, stupid or not.

Razorwolf isn't explicitly unfluffy at all, I concede, but you can understand how having shooty Space Wolves just looks and feels wrong.
SomeCallMeTim's avatar

SomeCallMeTim · 706 weeks ago

Blood Angel have the same amount of Tactical Marines as Ultramarines. Infact, a list with more tacticals then assault marines would be more fluffy, unless you play 8th company.
I realiize this. Please read my further comments.
There is no army you can't justify as fluffy, the problem is players disagree over the definition of fluffy.
Great post and very good, I'm a great lover of the fluff and regularly wonder to myself how certain armies would fit in the world but at most I'd simply ask if there is a self-made background for why this is but usually I just leave the point alone.
The exception being close friends who I joke and tease about having unfluffy armies (which has caused one friend to write out a background explaining why each unit exists in his apoc force, hehe).

I'm not convinced of the "Any army can be fluffy" idea, but only when you reach extremes (typically around the Apocalyse size). In general sized games then I do agree that you can come up with some personal fluff as to why its going on.
E.g. I'd quite certainly want an explanation if a Blood Angel player was fielding more than 160 Assault Marines or any Marine player (excluding Space Wolves/Salamanders etc) were to use more than a hundred veterans while insisting they are from the same chapter and not including successor chapters. Some things are written down afteral.. Just damn unlikely to occur and then easily explained (successor chapters etc).
Blood-Beard's avatar

Blood-Beard · 706 weeks ago

The focus on power gaming- when the fluffy whinges usually kicks in- skews this argument.
And I agree saying "that's not fluffy" when what you mean is "that's ass-pounding combination that would be pretty rare as described in your codex" is just a form of bad sportsmanship.
What I actually object to is type of fluff-screwing where slaneesh generals lead khorne troops. Just because the books allow it, doesn't stop me from remembering that khorne champions get extra recognition from their god for slaughtering the said decadent followers of slaneesh, and only half as much for mowing down fools who just worship the emperor. (ref Slaves to Darkness p55 circa1988 when I got into this hobby..)
From my perspective, World eater Legionaires are more likely to have Creed or the Sanguinator leading them than some Lash-Prince. And when someone complained recently on these hallowed forums that their "double Lash sorcerer led beserker army scored low on fluffy comp and i have no idea why" I had a little "noob-chortle".
But I certainly wouldn't bring i up with someone unless they were pushing the composition of said affront to the blood God in my face as in character and fluffy. Then I might have to unleash my beardy snigger-dom upon them.
But generally not, because even if I'm filled with inner gleeward beard-happy being an ass-hat is only acceptable on the internet, right?
brotheroracle's avatar

brotheroracle · 706 weeks ago

Well for the purifier bit, it says there are allways enough purifiers for the task at hand, and their numbers vary depending on how fucked the big is. Seeing as how the time of ending is upon us, and their could be 100 purifiers easily (8 brotherhoods of normal GK's, purifiers and Paladins are not counted in the number) which would mean around 10% of Grey Knight assets, sounds about right for an elite force. There really isn't an unfuffy thing you could do in the list building stage AT ALL. The fluff is made by the player not the list ( barring "historical" or pre-set lists for senarios.) What's a fluffy list? Anything that fills the mandatory slots.

Seriously I do not understand problems with legal lists, I'm just happy to be playing the damn game instead of working. I change my lists often and even armies I have fluff for some, but not every list I take.
3 replies · active 706 weeks ago
Bam. Straight on the head, my man.
SomeCallMeTim's avatar

SomeCallMeTim · 706 weeks ago

There are a few score according to the Codex and rarely more then 40 so probably 40-80 purifiers in times of trouble.
Extremely doubtful that there is a full brotherhood, because they would have said that then.
It is still okay, IMO. You can't field more then 60 with Crowe, and that seems fluffy to me.
Page 12 and 31 in the GK codex.
It is strongly hinted that the Grey Knights don't follow the Codex Astartes in the least, one big of which is the actual number of Grey Knights. It sounds extremely likely that there are many, many more Grey Knights then 1000.
The thing is. 40k is more flexible than a lot of people realise. Everything is canon, and none of it is. When GW writes a codex or BL writes a book and they contradict, one doesn't take precedence. They're both treated as a version of 40k. As if there is a third true universe which they are both emulating.

In the same way your own fanfic or army background can contradict the more common fluff, but it is still canon in your version. People cherry pick their favourite bits of 40k background all the time. How power armour works, the nature of the warp, the exact powers of the inquisition etc.

This game is what you make it.

For example in 'my' version of 40k I leave out Draigo's fluff :)
2 replies · active 705 weeks ago
Oh god I'm glad someone actually understands.
Understands = / = Agrees.
Myreknight's avatar

Myreknight · 706 weeks ago

Thanks for the post, and I agree that armies of all purifiers or vets is completely flufflyin my opinion. In those instances, and many others, I have no problem with a fluff like that and it still being a powerful and competitive army.

I begin to take offense when I start seeing blood angel khorne armies, and other such things. I'm not saying that everyone who has these are just switching to the better codex or because they feel that their codex is no longer competitive. It just happens to be that most of the times I've had the luck to come across those armies it is that someone no longer feels the CSM codex is competitive and won't play it anymore. I'm speaking from experience as I've had a nurgle army since second edition, and yes it is a very hard codex to play now, and I've had the luck of nurgle still being a competitive build, but just because its hard to play, should we ignore fluff and game mechanics and play Khorne blood angel armies or GK thousand sons? Hell I've let many chaos players I play with at my local store run last edition codex armies because it happens to fit power level wise better. I cannot however just give in and allow Chaos to have atsknf, because if nothing else that's a very blatant boost to the army.

All that being said I have seen a very well modeled and painted pre heresy GK Thousand Sons army.

@aurenian
I prefer to ignore draigo's fluff too.
1 reply · active 706 weeks ago
Elias Macale's avatar

Elias Macale · 706 weeks ago

Nice, a smattering of Counts-as hate for good measure.

I disagree; because frankly, the CSM book isn't competitive anymore. If the rules in a book no longer (or never have) represented the fluff well, why should a player who loves said fluff be restricted to playing a book that's hamstrung by it's age or poor design? There are very few ways to build a good CSM list, and I don't think any of them involve some of my favorite units in that book; Defilers, Chaos Lords, Raptors, Thousand Sons. I'm going to have less fun fielding a chaos marine army without the units I like, so why bother when there's a book out that represents that stuff way better? Who are you to tell me that my army that I put time and effort into building and painting and making wysiwyg for the Blood Angels or Grey Knight codex is unfluffy.

Liking/Respecting the fluff and wanting to play competitively are not mutually exclusive.

"I cannot however just give in and allow Chaos to have atsknf, because if nothing else that's a very blatant boost to the army. "

This is absurd, as is the fact that you take offense to this stuff. People playing counts-as armies aren't fighting a personal vendetta against you, you have nothing to gain or lose from trying to tell them not to have fun with the models they've spent time and money on. And Chaos kind of need a blatant boost to approach competitive. I agree that ultimately that boost shouldn't be atsknf, but until a new book comes out, it should serve the purpose.
Myreknight's avatar

Myreknight · 706 weeks ago

I guess the jist of that was, Don't stand across from someone screaming "Blood for the blood god" when you're playing blood angels
5 replies · active 706 weeks ago
Lurking Horror's avatar

Lurking Horror · 706 weeks ago

Why not?? :)

It'd be fun, just for the look on some people's faces when you do it.
Why not? You pretend that you play Chaos, and yet you think that the current CSM Codex actually fits a World Eaters army better than the Blood Angels Codex?
Hm... Angry Mahreens.... check in both Codices. Better in CSM since it's built-in rather than dependent upon an Icon-Bearer (Sang Priest), but still check.
Angry Dreads... check in both Codices.
Berzerking Marines too angry to feel pain... only in BA.

Dudes too STUPID to field meltaguns against vehicles... only in CSM. I thought World Eaters were supposed to be bloodthirsty but professional warriors. Not idiots running forward with Plasma Pistols as their only heavy-weapon backup. What are you going to do, Khorne Axe the Rhinos to pieces?

My feeling about World Eaters is that as a professional army of crazed lunatic berzekers, they are better represented by the more-professional army of the Blood Angels Codex, than the idiots in the CSM codex. So, again, why wouldn't I use the BA Codex to run a World Eaters army?

Or a GK Codex for a Tzeentch army? Not necessarily Thousand Sons, although you could run the base ones as normal PAGK and the Squad Sorcs as the Squad Leader in GK. But certainly a Tzeentch-based army, full of sorcerors, would be better matched to the GK Codex than to the CSM Codex.

Night Lords as BA only, there isn't even a way to run a jump pack army in CSM.

Death Guard does fit better into CSM.
Loganwing works well for Emperor's Children although only about as well as the CSM Codex.
Myreknight's avatar

Myreknight · 706 weeks ago

You seem to be missing the point where the main khorne unit is the "Khorne Berserker" So do I feel like they should not be allowed to field melta? Yes I don't think they should be allowed because as a berserker a two handed weapon would detract from close combat ability. Also as per your comment about all of them being crazed maniacs, that would mean they'd have rage, which they don't.
If you want to represent the more professional versatile aspect of the army, try fielding CSM squads with mark of Khorne. Now you have World Eaters that have Melta.

Night Lords, yea thats unfortunate that you can't field all jump pack armies, but are Raven Guard any different?

If Blood Angels is such a nice fit, please explain to me why World Eaters have fast vehicles, field more heavy weapons than most marine armies, use storm ravens, and have Psyker Dreads?
So Night Lords and World Eaters have furious charge and feel no pain?

I know my Chaos rules and please don't pretend I don't.
What I was trying to get across is, if there are rules for it, use the rules. Sorry every army goes through ups and downs, old and new codices. So suck it up, put on your big boys pants, and learn to play with the codex.
They have fast vehicles because they overcharge the engines to get to combat quicker. A typical WE-as-BA list won't have more heavy weapons than most marines armies, nor use Psyker Dreads or necessarily Storm Ravens. They might certainly have Death Company and Death Company dread equivalents, same with Reclusiarch equivalents. Sure, they might not use meltaguns, but why not inferno pistols? Perhaps their psychosurgery explains the furious charge, and their blood lust the FNP granted (by drinking blood from a chalice, no less!).

There's a difference between taking a Blood Angels army and saying "ok, these are Khornate Marines now" and building a BA army within the context of a World Eaters force, using rules and fluff that you like better while keeping the idea of the list the same.
Myreknight's avatar

Myreknight · 706 weeks ago

You're right there is a difference between taking a blood angels list and saying "ok this is khornate marines now" , and as I said in my first comment, most of my experience with this sort of thing is someone taking their old army and using the blood angels codex claiming its a perfect fit for a world eaters army.
If someone built and painted the army to represent those things, blood from a chalice and special Khornate demagogues as priests that would be very cool. Very often however the priest is "That guy with the white shoulder pad."

@Elias

I do apologize for dragging counts as into this, it wasn't my intention to do so. However, a lot of the time the term fluff is used to recycle armies because the rules fit better. Fluff plays a part in many tournaments that are played in my area, and I do have a problem with people using codices for the same old armies and complaining when they get a bad score in the fluff section. As this is a mostly competitive site (At least what I see being posted most is competitive articles.) and seeing how fluff plays a part in tournaments in my area, is it wrong to expect that to be competitive with those list someone would have to explain how and why the mechanics of the adopted codex works?
Isn't this more about being polite than it is about "fluffy" lists? I mean, if I'm walking up to someone at a game store, I shouldn't say "lol your list is unfluffy" any more than I should say "did you pick your units with a dartboard" or "I've seen better paint jobs done by five-year-olds".
2 replies · active 706 weeks ago
"did you pick your units with a dartboard?"

That's an amazing concept! I can just imagine so many people at my club doing that.
Someone actually wrote a program to do this with the Ork codex back in 4E, when it was more functional. Worked surprisingly well, as I recall.
Okay, everyone flip to PAGE ONE of the big, grey rulebook... There is a bit of "fluff" that has been on pageone of every edition of this game ever:

"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."

The key bit is that "[t]hese are the tales of those [grim dark future] times." Every bit of fiction and fluff presented in all of GW's books is a "tale," a partially true bit of fantasy told from the biased perspective of people in the universe, with agendas, innaccuracy, incomplete information, and sometimes flat-out lies. The game also spans a period of roughly 10,000 years, millions of worlds, and endless war... everything is "fluffy" because NOTHING is truly canon.
So, I posted a few days back on Sir Biscuit's "Arete" article. I initially wasn't a fan of his thoughts (and I'm still not a fan of his in your face delivery) but I think I'm now figuring out that a lot of these articles are written in defense of competitive play in a fluff environment. I consider myself a painter/fluff fan first, but I'll wheel out fifteen chimera chassis full of veterans for a tourney. My local gaming culture is very easy-going and full of "graceful losers". On the rare occasion someone gets mad and leaves in the middle of a tourney, we just assume he's an idiot and keep playing.

I guess when I wrote my dissenting opinion on Sir Biscuit's article, I took my own local gaming culture for granted, as I've never encountered any major opposition from sore losers. I'm just now starting to realize that many of you have to justify your competitive style (different from WAAC, which I consider ass-hat behavior bordering on cheating) to every person you beat. That suck and I appologize on behalf of mankind.
2 replies · active 706 weeks ago
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Some builds are unfluffy, but they are legal and most of my group would be happy to play them too(too broken and you might only get a few games) but we don't have to justify fluffiness. If your army is fluffy in accordance with the canon then you'll get good army scores at the local tournaments, if not, then you'll have to make the difference but winning the games by a greater margin - which should be easier if you have a stronger build.
...I'm gonna be as polite as I can here and say you come off as a hugely pretentious jerk right here.

I can have both competitive and fluff-loving aspects to my enjoyment of the hobby. In telling me that I "have to justify my... style... to everyone [I] beat" is to ascribe motives you have invented for me for behavior you've never even seen. The Blood Angel list I wrote a whole article worth of backstory for I've never even played with IRL; where the fuck is the "need to justify winning" there?
jazz devil's avatar

jazz devil · 706 weeks ago

I've always failed to see how an army legally created can be 'unfluffy'. (Christ, fluff is a stupid word.)
If you can pay the points, there it is: a legitimate narrative army.

The irony, of course, is that you can easily make up a compelling story out of any army list and fluff bullies fail to see it. Footdar? Advance strike force? Weird Eldar cult? Heavy Thunder Wolf cavalry? It's a tiny force of wolf riders, behind enemy lines. All Purifier list? 'Gather the flame-brothers. We face a dire foe.' All Fast Attacks are Spawn? It's bad to be a warband when the Geller Field goes down. Bike list? Scars. Raven Guard operating behind enemy lines. Like soldier X in the aussie SAS. Heavy Dread list? Fuck it. We. Are. The. Robot. Legion. Jokaero heavy list? Well, you could think of something. Or Counts As some sweet old Squats models and combi-weapon them up . 9 Oblits? There's a cult for that. All veteran army for IG? Well, I read this Dan Abnett book one time.

You get the belaboured point.

So yeah. I'm with Abusepuppy. 'Non-fluffy' really means 'I disagree conceptually with you and I want to make you feel bad.'

Fluff At All Cost players are bad, unimaginative and reductive. Unless the Sanguinor makes all that subtext text and turns up with his Necron boyfriend, riding Trigger the Trusty Tyrannid, I suspect it's impossible to be create a legal army list and 'unfluffy.'

Jazz Devil.
jazz devil's avatar

jazz devil · 706 weeks ago

I used behind enemy lines too much.
Warrior_Warlock's avatar

Warrior_Warlock · 706 weeks ago

I agree that the 40k universe allows for endless possibilities and one should be allowed to create the army they like without being put down for it, especially when serious thought and effort was put into it. Having said that i think your argument is missing a very important perspective. For many of us the enjoyment comes out of placing oneself in the game and getting caught up in the battlescene. Most of us are inspired by the fluff and these two factors make it that we play a fantasy game instead of chess or checkers. If someone shows up with a table of miniature hello kitties (granted and extreme example) and claims they are necrons one month and grey knights the next it ruins the illusion for me and thus my overall enjoyment. Therefore simply dismissing peoples compliants as being narrow and up tight, telling them to suck it up is equally unfair as them putting another player down for his/her list selection. My point is that this is a variation of a roleplaying game and someone showing up in a storm trooper trooper outfit to a medevil larp fight wouldnt be appreciated either.
1 reply · active 706 weeks ago
jazz devil's avatar

jazz devil · 706 weeks ago

I suspect that you are mistaking bodgy proxying for anything discussed in the article. As someone said above, classic competitive builds like gunline Wolves and Leafblower are narratively engaging.

No one wants to fight an elite paladin army made up of film rolls, wine corks and upturned coffee cups with 'Lazer Drednought' written on them in crayon. That's a different discussion.

But when you're told 'your army wouldn't do that', in role playing terms, it's someone sulking saying 'Captain Kirk wouldn't do that.'
Warrior_Warlock's avatar

Warrior_Warlock · 706 weeks ago

Jazz devil. You are correct, my examples kindof confuse two arguments and touches more heavily on the proxy discussion than i intended. What i meant to say was that we all need to "believe" the scenario we are playing. Some people (perhaps those with less imagination, i cant say) tend to hold on more strictly to the fluff and thus need a more "codex compliant" opponent in order to be able to sufficiently empathise with their toy soldiers. Showing up with a non fluffy army breaks their imagination process and thus their enjoyment of the game. Perhaps it isnt a lack of imagination as much as it is a dedication to the universe they have adopted as their fictional reality. Im sure there are many trekkies, harry potter fans etc. that are unable to accept situations, scenarios or characters that would break away from the official canon. Thus upsetting/frustrating them and causing them to express their discontent.
As far as fluff goes, the thing that most spoils it for me is the enormous number of Imperial v Imperial games you see. At my local club where I am basically the only player of non imperial armies you cant help but think that Imperium had collapsed into civil war completely.
1 reply · active 706 weeks ago
Lurking Horror's avatar

Lurking Horror · 706 weeks ago

It has, does, and will continue to do so. That's written into the fluff, and has been since the beginning... what's new about that?
I agree with the concept that the fluff is mutable, and there's no doubt that fluff is the most subjective aspect of the game.

I suppose if an all-Purifiers army was unfluffy, there wouldn't be a special character allowing players to take Purifiers as Troops.

That said, having skimmed over the responses to AB's post, I'm detecting a little bit of defensiveness over using another army's dex on a counts-as basis. Now, if you want to use the most competitive dex you can for tournament play, knock yourself out. However, is that a necessity for casual gaming?
1 reply · active 706 weeks ago
Is anything a "necessity" for casual gaming? I mean, isn't the point of playing casually that you can kinda just freewheel it and do whatever your bros are amenable to?
I've been using Codex: Chaos Space Marines for my LGS's escalation league, and not running the competitive netlist, either. In fact, I've been using a bunch of units considered to be sub-par: Thousand Sons, Raptors, 10-man CSM squads, a Chaos Lord with a daemon weapon, and nary a Lash Prince, Plague Marine, or Obliterator in sight. I had about a 10-game winning streak, and I'm still winning more than my share of games. So, despite what its detractors claim, C:CSM works well enough for the beer-and-pretzels type of game 40K was intended to be. So, if you want to counts-as your CSM list with the SW or BA dexes in tournaments, that's one thing. In casual play, it's worth an eyebrow-raise, at least.
1 reply · active 706 weeks ago
Lurking Horror's avatar

Lurking Horror · 706 weeks ago

So why is "casual play" somehow more restrictive on what is acceptable than any other environment? I thought the very idea of casual play was anything goes, as long as you both agree?
The Codex Astartes does not support this action.
Can someone be my hero and make a GK army in which every model is soaked in the blood of Adepta Sororitas?

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