
This is a mistake you'll see newer players make a lot, but even for more experienced gamers it's hardly uncommon. It usually starts something like this:
"Man, Draigo and a squad of Paladins is just about impossible to kill; that's a really strong unit and it can support itself with shooting. Give them all Halberds or Daemonhammers and you're looking at a really tough squad to bring down. Oh man, and with a Librarian I can mix up weapons for wound allocation more and have 3+ cover and S7, +2D6 armor pen, I10 and other good stuff. And if I add a Techmarine I can get Rad and Psychotroke Grenades also so I can Instant Death almost anything and kill even big Ork hordes! Man oh man this unit is so unbeatable!"
And occasionally it will be, but against a decent/good opposing general it's actually very underwhelming because you're falling into the "win-more" fallacy.
The fallacy, essentially, is continuing to pay points (or other resources, depending on the game) for things that don't help much when you're losing, but when you're winning help you win even more- which is generally unnecessary and a poor use of those points. In the above example, Draigo + buddies should already murder virtually anything in close combat; as you continue to stack things onto them, the improvements become more and more marginal because there are already so few units that stand any chance against you in a fight. You could have instead spent those extra points to shore up weak points- say, by adding more scoring units, or more long-range shooting, or whatever, which are all very real weaknesses of the list. Using your resources where you need them is the fundament of good list-building.
Although such melee "deathstars" are the most egregious offenders in this category, they are far from the only one. "Spam" lists often fall prey to this same problem of one-dimensionality; if you've already got six squads with 3+ Meltaguns in them, do you really need another, or do you need some more long-range firepower instead? Is that 24th Lance weapon really going to tip the balance, or might you be better off diversifying a bit? This is the counterpoint to saturation and part of a strategy of flexibility- as you stack more and more of the same thing up, they often become less useful. Finding this balancing point is very important and there is no hard and fast rule for doing so; it will vary with each different army and each different list. What is overkill for one might be insufficient for another, but it's importan to understand that this point exists, because there is often the perception that more is always better, which is patently untrue.
"But of course being better at something is good!" some of you will be thinking. "That way even if I lose X members of the squad, I can still kill Y!" I'm sorry, no. For one, in almost all cases you would be better served buying another squad to assist you- "Boyz, not toyz" as the saying goes. Second, overkill can be very harmful to you- charging a squad and completely wiping it out can often leave you exposed and in the open, so limiting your kill potential is actually a good survival strategy. Last but not least, expecting a single unit (or type of unit) to handle all your army's problems is, at best, a dangerous gamble and at worst outright foolishness.
The lesson to take for this is not to just keep throwing points at something until every possible problem is solved; EVERY unit has weaknesses, and you can't fix that. Terminators hate low-AP fire; Assault Terminators dislike tarpits; everything has one or more units they just can't handle, so accept it and take something else in your army to deal with that threat. This isn't to say that you shouldn't try and cover your weaknesses, but you need to be aware of how many points you're spending and to what degree the weakness is an issue and will be mitigated by your countermeasure.
nurglez · 705 weeks ago
Comrade · 705 weeks ago
Archnomad · 705 weeks ago
Sure, you're right about win more, if you play tcgs, you'll know the term crops up a lot there too. However, in regards to my army in particular, the only real problem it has is objectives, and considering how the game works with objectives, grand strategy and BLoS haven't yet let me down. Also, without the techmarine then assault terms are actually really scary if they charge me ;)
That said, I'm all for trying interceptors as I can use them to contest objectives my army can't get to.
Nurglitch · 705 weeks ago
Basically what you're describing can be seen in the difference between buying an additional weapon at xpts and twin-linking an existing weapon at x/2pts. Twin-linking makes the first weapon's shots more reliable, proportionate to the user's BS. Users with low BS benefit proportionately more than users with high BS because the margins for missing with high BS are so much thinner. The additional weapon, on the other hand, not only makes the number of shots hitting more reliable, but increases the number of shots that can hit. This isn't just narrowing the margins, it's also expanding the space in which successes (hits) can occur.
Nurglitch · 705 weeks ago
Which is why I like to harp on players balancing synergy, flexibility, and redundancy both across their armies, and within their units, to find that equilibrium point where you're not wasting points on a reliably weak punch.
J4br4 41p · 705 weeks ago
A more apt example may be a SM army loading up on rifle dreads, dakka preds and HB razors. These units, while providing saturation (which is good) al provide similar battle roles. That is anti-heavy infantry/light tanks and all within the same range bubble, which is bad when you face a horde of Nids or a huge foot IG army, for instance. I know the example is a bit farfetched. I believe the risk of win-more is less relevant for min/max MSU, because of the inherent duality that MSU list building has (or at least is supposed to have).
Ow and I just remembered. Take a look a Stelek's Nova list for the MSU example. He himself admits the list is sub-optimal, because loading up on Bolterback can only do so much against a saturated and ranged mech list, leaving all the heavy lifting to the Fangs.
abusepuppy 121p · 705 weeks ago
Nurglitch · 705 weeks ago
daboarder · 705 weeks ago
purgatus 90p · 705 weeks ago
Prometheus 101p · 705 weeks ago
yazchar 62p · 705 weeks ago
timff8 · 705 weeks ago
Itshoulditshoulditshoulditshoulditshoulditshoulditshoulditshoulditshoulditshoulditshoulditshould!
abusepuppy 121p · 705 weeks ago
timff8 · 705 weeks ago
Seriously though, I really don't think AP:2 should ignore FNP. AP:1 should, sure. But to me the line between AP:2 and AP:3 is really, really thin. AP:5 and 6 are light rounds without specialized penetrating power. AP:4 is you really heavy anti-infantry and light anti-tank rounds. AP:1 is super-special awesome anti-tank power. AP:2 and 3 are kind of a jumble of anti-heavy infantry, because heavy infantry can be either 3+ or 2+. Plasma-based weapons are in both categories (not Plasmaguns but plasma-ish weaponry in their fluff) and anti-tank guns are in both categories as well. I just feel that they are not different enough to say that one allows FNP to happen without a hitch, and one just ignores it completely.
yazchar 62p · 705 weeks ago
timff8 · 705 weeks ago
Plus, almost all of the units that get FNP have some degree of insanity/stupidity in their fluff (Death Company, Plague Marines, Ork Nobs, etc.) to the degree that they could get their arm blown off in combat by an Autocannon round, lok at the spurting stump, and just get really, really pissed.
Perhaps there should be some sort of normal Feel No Pain (guys that get it from counters/buffs) versus 'Heroic' Feel No Pain. The regular one only protects against AP:4 through 6, while the Heroic variety gives you it agasint AP:2 and 3 as well.
yazchar 62p · 705 weeks ago
Consider FNP from a Tau stand point: if it weren't for the AP2 rule, only railguns and fusion blasters would ignore FNP...if you think about that for a second that would be very very unbalanced!
timff8 · 705 weeks ago
Too much thinking and this is going to get into Necromunda territory, and I play 40k BECAUSE the ruels make it fine to run 100 models at one. This is ludicrous.
Although, if we had Heroic vs. normal FNP, there would be less models that ignored AP:2, and the others would be vulnerable to your AP:3 guns, so it ballances out.
Garnet · 705 weeks ago
FNP works just fine the way it is.
timff8 · 705 weeks ago
Garnet · 704 weeks ago
itcamefromthedeep · 692 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 705 weeks ago
timff8 · 705 weeks ago