
You know what I am really tired of hearing? "Army XXX is unbeatable/too strong! It has no weaknesses and is good at everything and my army can't do anything to it waaaaaaaaah!" Perhaps this comes off as hypocrisy coming from someone who wrote a whole article complaining about Grey Knights when they came out, but I'm standing behind that. Anyways.
There are very few "autolose" matchups in this game- with rare exceptions, your battles may be harder or easier, but they will never be impossible. They will never, in fact, be bad enough that you should just give up- even nightmares like Tyranids vs Night Shields DE or JotWW spam can go your way with the right tactics, albeit not nearly as often as you'd like. More importantly, there are NO "autowin" armies. None. Not a one. If there was a clear-cut best army that had superior win percentages against everything, you can bet your ass that a lot more people would be playing it. And guess what? Grey Knights saw the same surge in popularity that every codex gets when it's released along with the "we're a marine book" kicker. They aren't a superior army. They can be beaten.
Oh, but Draigowing! I'll tell you what, boys and girls: f*** Draigowing. It is, in most of its incarnations, a bad army with a bad plan, usually piloted by bad players. (My apologies to those of you who run it and are actually good at the game, but I'm sad to say you're a distinct minority of your breed.) It is NOT unbeatable. It is, in fact, extremely beatable, like an ugly six year old redhead. Starting today with this army, I'm going to pick apart of a bunch of "overpowered" armies and try and show you the hows and whys of defeating them.
Laying the Foundations
First of all, let's be clear about what we're talking about when we mean Draigowing. Obviously we mean a Paladin-based army that uses Draigo and the GK codex, but there are actually a few ways to do this. What we are going to be looking at is actually one of the worst of them, a poorly-designed and noncohesive force that relies on some stupid tricks to get by. They're effective tricks, but stupid ones. It usually looks something like this.
2000 Grey KnightsThere are lots of variants to the list, and I'm sure this is not the "best" version, but it will suffice for our purposes, as it clearly illustrates what we want to show. The various augmentations with Assassins, Terminators for troops, no Raider, splitting the Paladins up more, etc, don't really change the fundamental nature of the army.
1 Draigo (275)
1 Librarian (Staff, Quicksilver, Might, Sanctuary, Shrouding) (205)
1 Techmarine (Rad, Psycho) (115)
10 Paladins (4 MC Psycannon, Banner, mix of CC weapons) (645)
10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Rhino) (280)
1 Land Raider Redeemer (245)
1 Psyfleman (135)
1 Psyfleman (135)
What is this nature? It's a rock. Hell, it's probably the King of Rocks, as very few things in the game can go toe-to-toe with Paladins and come out feeling good about it. TH/SS in large numbers, maybe, but even that is a potentially ugly matchup. Kirby has told us some things about playing against rocks, and the number one rule remains the same here:
DO NOT TRY TO OUT-ROCK A ROCK.
This unit has a purpose. Its purpose is to get in your face and charge your models and kill them. When you throw your units at it and go toe-to-toe with them, you are playing directly into their game plan. It's like trying to beat DE on speed or Tyranids on model count- you aren't going to do it. You can't. It's what they're best at, and Grey Knights are no different- they are THE elite army in the game, and if you try to match up with them in this regard, YOU WILL LOSE.
Again: IF YOU TRY TO OUT-ROCK A ROCK, YOU WILL LOSE, TIME AFTER TIME AFTER TIME.
I cannot overemphasize this enough, because every time Draigowing comes up in a discussion there's some guy telling everyone about how Vindicators and Medusae and blah blah blah are so good against them. NO. ABSOLUTELY NOT. Do NOT do this, because again, you are trying to beat them at their own game. You are trying to beat a pig in a mud-wrestling contest. You are letting them dictate how they want to play the game and mentally setting out those parameters as the limits of what you are allowing yourself as options, and as soon as you do that- against any army, not just Draigowing- you have already lost. You MUST, especially when fighting a Rock, fight them in ways that they are poorly-equipped to handle.
Hit Weak Point For Massive Damage
What's the first thing you notice about that list up there? Probably the fact it only fields 27 models at 2000pts, which... yeah, okay, that's not a lot. But just as importantly, look at which models it has- 600 of those points are concentrated into three ICs with a total of eight wounds between them. The list is AMAZINGLY top-heavy, and not in the "sexy lady lady with a nice chestakamammical region" kind of way, in the "damnit why do we have nine Vice Presidents and only one guy doing programming?" kind of way. More than that, it effectively has 2-4 squads (plus two tanks and two Dreads) as total units, depending on how it splits itself up with Combat Squads.
"That just means it's low on Kill Points, even more unfair!" No, it doesn't. Everyone knows what MSU means? Yes, you probably do. Why is MSU good? Because it lets you do lots of things at once. When you're shooting with twenty units each turn, you waste very little firepower. When the enemy destroys one of them you don't care because you didn't lose much. When it comes time to take objectives, you have a plethora of choices. In all these cases, the opposite is also true- an army like Draigowing, that invests heavily in a few small, powerful units is greatly limited when it comes to shooting, assaults, and movement. There are armies that can field enough units that this army literally cannot kill them all. As in "flat out impossible because there are not enough turns in the game to do it."
More realistically, however, the effect is still incredibly limiting. How many tanks can this army hurt each turn? Five or six, depending on how the Paladins split themselves up. I bet most of you have seen more than five tanks on the field before- yeah, I thought so. And if one of those units rolls poorly- oops, all eight Psycannon shots missed/failed to pen/passed cover, like will happen reasonably often- that is 20% of their shooting for the turn wasted. The MSU army just shrugs and aims another set of guns at the target, but the Draigowing army has to seriously thingk whether it can afford to use up another one-fifth of its force against a single target. All of the same logic applies with charges and melee as well- five Paladins is great when you're running them into some Orks or Space Marines, but against Guardsmen or Tau? It's pure overkill. In fact, against most squads in the game five Paladins is gross overkill, nevermind if they're being babysat by a character or two. If you can throw a sacrificial squad or transport in the way, you can drastically hurt them by denying them an assault phase against your important units, and with an army like Draigowing time is at a premium.
Why so? Because that end-of-game timer is ticking down, and when it hits zero, you had better be sitting on some objectives (two-thirds of the time, anyways.) Draigo can pass out scoring status to the Dreads to mitigate this somewhat, but the army is still looking at a very limited pool of scoring units, and two of them (the Paladins) are tasked with pulling the weight of the army and thus can't be relied on to always be hanging out near objectives. Of the others, the GKSS are an obvious target, being one of the few support units and an easy place to dump any shots that aren't S8+/AP2-. The Psyflemen will likewise find themselves targeted often, as they tend to be annoying for many of the armies out there.
Oh yes, and those Psyflemen- they're the list's only "reach" potential. Everything else works only at 24" or less; while that's certainly not insignificant range, it does mean that the first 1-2 turns of the game, none of those units are contributing very much, so if you're looking at Spearhead deployment, you suddenly realize that until T3, the only thing the GK player can really do to you is growl menacingly, and even that doesn't work if you brought your mp3 player.
Morale can also be a thing, especially if the opponent is hilarious and doesn't split up his Paladin squad any. Paladins are not Fearless, and while Ld10 and ATSKNF can be tough to break, they are not impossible- 9% of rolls will fail. If you can force a large number of Pinning or Morale checks, such as with Tank Shocks, you may be able to cripple him without really hurting his models any, and in the latter case you might just be able to escort him right off the board- in which case you should really take a picture so you can live in infamy alongside Kroot Wall Guy. Don't forget those checks when they come up and never assume anything; sometimes, the dice will come through for you.
In short, this army's only real strategy is "drive forward, get into assault, WINNING." That's what we call a Rock army. That's why it isn't good, or flexible, or probably going to win most tournaments. It will steamroller bad lists and generals, but good ones will be able to play around it and play to the maxims of beating Rock lists- avoid rock fights, play to the mission, use their weaknesses against them.
(One last aside: the above list is 2000pts, which is a fairly big game, though more common here in the States. As soon as you drop below this number, Draigowing gets steadily worse. If you see someone playing it at 1500, pity them. If you see someone playing it at 1000pts, you are legally allowed to point and laugh at them. I just wanted to emphasize that.)
Beating a Dark Horse
So what do you do with all of the above? How do you turn it into a winning strategy? There are a number of ways, and the specifics will vary from army to army, but we'll get into that later- for now let's just talk about the generalities.
First of all, play to the mission. Kirby emphasized this in his article, and I'd go over it more here except this is basic advice for ANY army you play against, not just Draigowing. Always be thinking about the mission and what it tells you will win you the game, because Draigowing wants to play "you can't win if you have no models left" instead. If you can avoid that, if you can stick to the mission, you are at an immediate advantage.
Objective-based missions are the easy one- just look to claim/contest the objectives in the final turns. Eliminate the Dragowing player's paltry scoring presence and you'll be at a huge advantage, as he'll be hard-pressed to have his two Paladin squads actually hold two different objectives successfully in the face of Tank Shocks, casualties, etc. In Capture/Control, he will likely press his Paladins forward into your zone while keeping his other units on his own; if you can sweep his objective clean, you are in an excellent position to claim it, as he can hardly turn around and send his guys back; contrawise, make sure you can keep him from taking your objective by means of blocking/contesting/etc. Be aware, however, that it is likely you will have to abandon it. Seize Ground (or other multi-objective missions) are easier, as they stretch his resources where they are thinnest. Here he faces a difficult decision- if he commits a large portion of forces to a single objective, he can be guaranteed of defending it, but you can likely hold all the others (due to superiority of scoring units.) On the other hand, if he spreads his units out, you will likely be able to use mobility to pounce on an isolated portion and annihilate it. Both are losing strategies for him.
Kill Points is, unsurprisingly, a bit tougher, but by no means unwinnable. The low KP count in the Draigowing army, as we discussed earlier, by extension limits his targeting options greatly. MSU armies, which tend to feature transports extensively, can easily outmaneuver the Paladins and hammer the much more fragile support elements to pull ahead in the KP game and then simply avoid engagements; with limited range and mobility, it is unlikely that Draigowing will be able to pull back ahead in such a situation. This is exactly what happened in Blackmoore's game against Neil at NOVA. Neil jumped ahead 3-0 on KP and had dropped the Psyfledreads and was therefore pretty safe on the KP side of things but then committed five KP right in front of the Paladin squad and played straight into Blackmoore's hands. Rather, he should have moved back to the board edges since Blackmoore now had to kill six units to win on KP. Neil could have then ensured he controlled the objectives/table quarters with his superior mobility.
A second major strategy springs from this very fact: while Paladins may be ridiculously tough, the other elements of the army often are not. Psyflemen, of course, can be a pain to disable, but assaults, Meltaguns, the various anti-backfield strategies that are present in many lists will work just fine against them. The non-Paladin scoring units in the list will also be easy prey, whether Strike Squads or Terminators, they will be small in number and often forced to take an isolated position in order to claim an objective or use a firing lane. Draigowing's ability to maneuver is limited by its goals and its models- not only are Land Raiders and Paladins comparatively large models, the opponent cannot easily spread them across the field to threaten large areas in the same way a MSU-style army can. Some lanes of access might be blocked off, but when the battle front is as wide as the table, it is simply not feasible for one or two squads to keep it entirely protected.
As a third point, and especially in non-Kill Point games, blocking tactics (which Kirb has written about in the past; Stelek, also, but you'll have to dig through YTTH youself to find those; yes each of those links is a new article) are very helpful against Draigowing, with its limited number of models. Against the Land Raider variants especially it is critical to use good blocking techniques to disable his movement early on to prevent an assault on your main forces and then deploy Meltaguns to destroy the Raider, effectively neutering his ability to move.
Lastly, be aware of concentrations of force. This is a specialty of Paladins (and all Rock armies), but it isn't good to simply concede it to them- for example, attacking his support units is an easy way to use concentration of force in specific areas to cripple him. However, you can do a lot more than that- if the Draigowing player allows you to mass your forces correctly and does not keep his own units properly interconnected, it may be entirely possible for you to commit to an all-out assault on one of his Rocks and destroy it, which will leave him crippled. High-mobility armies especially will be good at this, since they can threaten many areas of the board and elements of the enemy's forces simultaneously, making decisions problematic. Always remember that Paladins are tough, but not unbeatable, especially if you can catch them out of cover or otherwise exposed to the full force of your army.
Special Considerations
I may go into more detail on this section in a future article, as I originally had the beginnings of a much more extensive tactica here describing various ways the different codices could combat Draigowing here; however, such a project is even larger in scope than this lengthy article, so I thought it best to cut it down and stick with the generalities for now. However, we will touch on a couple common "problem" armies for dealing with Draigowing.
Jumpers is, to be sure, in a tight spot. With only limited S8 and a reliance on melee for anti-infantry, the abundant Power Weapons and Halberds both give this army very bad times. It very much has to hope for a good mission selection when facing Draigo down, but is still not without options. Excellent mobility means that Draigwing will often have trouble engaging BA except on their own terms, and Draigowing's shooting is utterly ineffective on BA's tough models. Obey the concentration of force when using BA- always look for openings to assault an exposed Paladin squad and wipe them off the table; 2-3 full ASM squads charging something will usually end its day quickly, unless led by a mass of characters. Nipplewing, being essentially a lesser version of Draigowing in many ways, will be critically disadvantaged in the matchup, but should you be able to get a good charge, their Power Weapons can quickly fell the enemy. In either case support by Missile Devs greatly enhances the army, as always.
Biker armies, being another "elite" force, are also in a bad position. Their mobility is a boon as ever, but low resilience against Draigowing's shooting and similar gun range puts them in a very bad position- this is probably one of the worse matchups you can expect to see. All I can say is use your extreme speed to avoid them and hope for endgame claiming of objectives.
Tyranids, bizarrely, are in a better position against Draigowing than against normal GK armies. While most forces lament trying to penetrate 3+ cover with their S8 guns, Tyranids shrug and throw voluminous shots from Hive Guard into the squads and just let the singular pips do their work for them. Lines of bubblewrap Termagants protect the shooters and bring some minor casualties of their own. MCs should be tasked with eliminating the support elements, which thankfully are in short supply for Draigowing, else the Tyranids might be as doomed as they usually are. Breaching the Land Raider will actually be the most difficult part of the equation, but often the enemy will make an assault for you or a sacrificial MC will do the job.
Permutations
I said earlier that this is the worst of the Draigowing lists; hopefully I've been able to point out some reasons why in the ensuing paragraphs. However, if you get really unlucky, you might end up encountering a- gasp - smart Draigowing player who built his army well. Surprisingly, this makes the fight a lot harder for us, although our fundamental strategies are going to be similar. Let's look at some possibilities:
-Solodins: This is one of the sleeper abilities of Paladin squads and Draigo. Paladins have a minimum squad size of one and can Deep Strike; Draigo has the Psychic Communion power, which lets him get -1 to reserve rolls when he wants it, allowing a player try and keep reserves held back. Combining these, you can have 1-6 squads which DS in during the final turns of the game and try to land on an objective, and with all the usual Paladin defenses they can be a bit of a pain to shift. Also they can spit out S5 large blasts and do other silly things like instakill big models, etc. This ability to bring in resilient models in the late game can largely alleviate scoring concerns with the list, although if you have models of the own in the neighborhood it won't be terribly hard to shift them off- you just are going to have to guard EVERY objective.
-Stormravens: Replacing the Land Raider(s) of the usual list, Stormravens can also tote a Dread along with them (usually a Venerable with Multimelta or, if you're lucky, Assault Cannon/Autocannon) and are much faster than their ground-bound counterpart. The thinking here is usually "omg so fast i can get in combat turn 2!!!1" but the reality is often "shit i got immobilzed and crashed again." 3+ cover from the Librarian will be a pain, but in any kind of larger game you should be able to gun down one or both of them on the initial turns of the game. Unlike LRs, they are not immune to all the Autocannons/Multilasers/Missiles you have in your list, so these weapons instantly gain some value. Unfortunate (and also unlike the LR) they cannot be move-blocked, so you are probably going to have to deal with them straight away. Do not confuse them with the BA version, which carries some pretty scary armament thanks to main guns + missiles; the GK Stormraven can't be "turned off" like the BA one can, but its missiles are almost entirely impotent, so you really only need to think about the two decent AT guns it carries. Assuming you don't crash it right away, which you might, because seriously- AV12.
-Life Support: A good list-builder realizes that Paladins on their own are scary enough and invests points into other parts of the army instead- so you'll see Purifiers and Razorbacks for extra shooting, Interceptors for mobility, etc- units that fill the gaps that Paladins can't cover rather than strengthening an already-strong unit, probably at the expense of all those silly ICs. Here you have to take a careful look at your list and his and try to figure out how they match up with each other- are his Paladins enough of a rock that you can overcome them with proper concentration of force? Are his support elements weak enough that you can eliminate them while delaying his rock? How well do HIS elements mesh with each other, and can they provide mutual support? This, especially in combination with the Solodins strategy above, can present a genuine threat
There are lots of other ways you can change the list around, but in the end it remains essentially the same- Draigowing is generally a Rock, and it plays like a Rock and it can be beaten like any other Rock. Also like any other Rock list, luck is a huge factor- some passed (or failed) saves at critical moments can really give you a bad time of things, but the same goes for the Draigowing player, so fear not. The list just isn't as scary as the internet makes it out to be and if you're running a good list, you can really have a field day with this "powerful" army.
Since this is intended to be the first article in a series, I'll be talking about many other lists (and kinds of lists) in the future. I am specifically going to be focused on the more sub-par variants (or "internet popular"), rather than the genuinely powerful lists, because beating the latter simply isn't a matter of understanding why they fail; they don't fail, because they usually have complex or multifaceted strategies that cover their bases well. Rather, I will be focusing on Nob Bikers, Meltavet Spam, Fatecrusher, etc; one-dimensional lists that people still seem to be afraid of despite the fact that they are, in reality, actually rather fragile. If anyone has special requests, I'm happy to consider them- leave some words in the comments here.
ChubToad · 708 weeks ago
Volcatus 31p · 708 weeks ago
the6thdegree · 708 weeks ago
It would be so nice to table them though...even if it was just once.
Neil Gilstrap · 708 weeks ago
Uhm, I was never ahead in that game in KP, not even once. Second, I only killed 2 of his dreads the whole game, the only 2 KPs I got in the whole match. Third, there was no "playing into his hands". Blackmoor did exactly as his list should have done in a KP mission versus mine. Set up mid behind an enormous hill, putting the rest of his units where they could easily hide outside of LoS the whole game if he so chose. Walk over the hill, kill 3 Razorbacks, and retreat. Game over. The exact strategy you are touting that I should have done. Trying to hide or "run away" from that would have just netted me a boring game and a loss, not just a loss.
Kirby 118p · 708 weeks ago
He never dropped any of the Razorbacks in the first two turns thanks to some amazing cover saves and poor table rolls from Allan (48-52 mins & 1min). I think you had dropped two dreads (1:11 & 1:12) and but it looks like the GKSS did live sorry (they look they die at 42 mins but shoot again at 52 mins) - still you had killed those Dreads before Allan had killed anything and with your firepower you should have known you'd have killed some of them. Yes they (your Razorbacks) likely would have died at some point but Allan had to kill five units by that point to win on KP. Whilst you didn't know you would drop two of the three Dreads in that shooting phase, committing the Libby, DCA, Purgs and their two transports put five KP right in front of the Paladins on T2 played right into his hands. He didn't have to come out significantly to get you. He could hit multiple targets at once. You put 5 KP in front of him hoping you could snipe Draigo and drop the Interceptors. Gamble certainly and one that didn't pay off as neither succeeded but one better suited to late game if you were significantly behind on KP (which you were not at this point, even if you didn't know you'd be up 2-0 on KP from your shooting).
You had ranged fire superiority (Joks + 5 Dreads versus 3 Dreads) and mobility superiority. Yes that hill with Draigowing + NOVA style KP weighted missions is a bitch but he can only hold one quarter and one objective if he's hiding, plenty more for you to work around. Yes never actually moving in would be boring as hell as well, look at Tony's game. That is unfortunately how games go against Rock armies - so blame the people who take them :P.
Even talking to Allan afterwards he was confused as to why you moved in when you did. If you did this on say Turn 4 say after the Dreads had been killed and were looking to stall the Paladins or maybe pick off the Interceptors and were behind on KP, much more understandable as you'd have tied that unit up in midfield and been able to gain a KP or two - at that point it was a gamble you needed to take to get back into the game.
Ya KP is a pain versus this type of army and playing cagey against it can be boring as hell but that is often what is needed.
Neil Gilstrap · 708 weeks ago
Then, given that terrain, that I could have somehow moved to quarters and objectives without giving up KPs to a squad which I did not have adequate fire power to take down at range, when they are already in mid with a 24 inch range, is also not workable.. In actuality, the ranged superiority belonged to him because of the Kill Points scenario and my lack of exposable AP 2 weaponry. Deploying my Jokaero squads against Paladins in area terrain, already in board center, with a libby with shrouding, which I may or may not have been able to hood, would have only netted him even more easy kill points by killing the small Guardsmen squads now exposed to storm bolter fire as well as Psycannon fire.
Likewise, Tony Kopach didn't have this problem because KP wasn't the primary, objectives were. Likely, as is already pointed out here, should objectives have been the Primary, I most likely would have done very well that game due to his inability to claim objectives by not being able to expose his weaker units to the level of fire power I could bring to bear... otherwise known as ignoring the Paladins and especially given the incredible BS that my cover saves were for the first 2 turns. Had Tony had to worry about Blackmoor killing 3 rhinos and then hiding behind terrain for the rest of the game, you would have seen him become substantially more aggressive as well because assuming that Blackmoor doesn't know how to win a KP game when his list is clearly built to game NoVA on KPs, is hubris at best.
The one thing I wish I would have changed about what I did was to put even more of my forces forward when I came on the board. Ignoring the KPs, if I could have gotten a lucky break test on that Paladin squad by tank shocking, possibly killing 25%, etc. I could have tabled him. It was a long shot to begin with, but in a game with a terribly bad match-up list vs. list, given that terrain, those are the options that I had to go with. Certainly not thinking that I could somehow drive some Razorbacks across the board hoping that Blackmoor didn't see them. :P
Kirby 118p · 708 weeks ago
Yes Allan was very likely to move his Paladins onto the hill to try and poke you with Psycannons for KP, he also might have full on rushed you since two of his dreads were down and whilst the firepower you had was unlikely to actually kill them due to Draigo, you still had a range and mobility advantage. Yes the Paladins were going to be able to shoot you since they had claimed the centre of the board, yes the Interceptors were going to shoot you due to a 12" move and yes the remaining Dread was going to shoot you but that's not a LOT of firepower - we saw how effective it was with some good/poor rolling against two Razorbacks. You had the firepower to reliably drop the remaining Dread and quite possibly the Interceptors or Strike squad (I don't know what LoS was like) through sheer volume of fire.
The point here is not to expose your squads to try and kill the rock but to kill everything around it. You may not want to expose the Joks + Aco squads but you exposed five Kill Points by throwing everything else at him which played into his hands. I agree with your last paragraph, if you go that type of approach GO FOR IT. Make it a sort of all or nothing approach where you aim to table him/push the Paladins off the board or start out like you did but then play defensively. Yes KP is a bitch to take this army on, I'm not denying that because the Paladin squad has the unique advantage for a rock of being able to throw 16 S7 rending shots out a turn. It seemed like you were in limbo between the two concepts though. Tony did play very defensively and once you forced Allan to kill at least five units when you had hurt most of his ranged firepower, you could potentially do this as well. I'm not saying it was going to be an auto-win for you as you did still have to contend with the rest of the army on the board and Allan controlling them, but I think it would have been better than dropping 1/4 of your army right in front of the Paladins to snack on.
Blackmoor · 708 weeks ago
Neil Gilstrap · 708 weeks ago
Anon · 708 weeks ago
Marshal_Wilhelm 71p · 708 weeks ago
Desc440 · 708 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 708 weeks ago
Marshal_Wilhelm 71p · 708 weeks ago
You actually get points for killing the equivalent points worth of your opponent.
When you have something like KP and then Objectives, you build a list that is decent at both, right? Well what happens when a guy max's out on, say, Draigo & Friends, and the game is a total wash. Might as well just treat as a training exercise than a real contest.
Similarly, that MSU army will totally pwn Draigo & Friends in an Objectives game. What is the point?
KP just encourages people to load up on big clunky units. "Hey I don't care that I have only killed 5 of your units, bro, even if you table me, I only have 4 KP. Ha!" VP encourages people to build an effective army.
In the Space Marine game, to win on the Seize mission, all you have to do is run around and capture opposition Points. It doesn't matter if you are a bad shot, like me. Just keep rushing that Raptor with exploding pack, and your team will win by playing the system, not the game. Well, inversely, playing the system doesn't work so much with Objectives games in 40K. Why? Because you don't get to respawn you units and run them as suicide bombers. You still have to preserve them.
KP just encourages people to load up on big units.
"So I have a few deathstars. Cool. I guess all I have to do is roll dice for the next 2 hours and the win goes from being a formality to a reality. Sweet."
With C&C, all the Few Big Units player has to do is place his Objective near the other guys, and MSU guy is sad face. FBU guy's weakness is neutralised. It is only in the more Objectives game that MSU becomes a clear winner. I don't think FBU is a fun, challenging or intelligent way to play 40K. Has rock, move forwards. Boo!
KP babies FBU.
nurglez · 708 weeks ago
The only game I scored less victory points on was against one of the other draigo wings (in kill point's no doubt, Oh how tzeentch was laughing at me!). My 4th game was vs a missile heavy space wolf list with 2 rune priests. Though he suffered rather bad luck at rolling, all his missiles just bounced off me, and the few lascannon's he had either bounced off draigo or took a wound off my DK's, though the mission favoured me (only your HQ can capture the single objective in the middle of the board, if no one has it, kill points).
I actually played well vs the other DK. deployed round the side so I could focus my whole army on a fraction of his at a time. Though without any str8+ weapons it was a tough fight, if a bit boring (roll tons of dice, watch your opponent save everything, have them shoot back, save everything.....). Each of his squads was pimped out with an apoth, brotherhood banner and warding stave. (though only draigo, libby, 2x5 pimped pallies and 2 stock DK's with heavy incinerators).
My rather rambling post is, only in 4-5+ objective games do draigo wing suffer, and thats if they haven't brought other support units instead of more paladins. And while MSU will have more fire power, it will still generally be firing singular shots, which might wear down smaller squads, but if smart the DW player will reserve those units, and deploy draigo as far forward as possible to maximise fire power.
abusepuppy 121p · 708 weeks ago
I'm not saying KP are perfect, far from it. They really need to look at the system and try and come up with something more functional, but I don't want to have to spend 10minutes after the game is over trying to figure out who won.
artemi7 78p · 708 weeks ago
The issue with KP as I see it has nothing to do with big units. It's stuff like Tau gun drones off the side of transports. Really? That's a whole KP?
abusepuppy 121p · 708 weeks ago
Marshal_Wilhelm 71p · 708 weeks ago
Deldar raiders and Ork trukks just get sneezed at and are destroyed.
The massive unit giving up one measly KP for most a games effort, and the Grots giving up one because they thought too hard :P cannot be the same thing, imo.
Antebellum · 708 weeks ago
I don't know which is better though.
nurglez · 708 weeks ago
I think the main problem for most people, is that they see their weapons bounce off, or fail to do as much damage as they are used to, which leads to them forgetting their plans and throwing more fire power after bad. Going after the weaker elements is a very sound tactic, and generally works against me.
Nurglitch · 708 weeks ago
It should probably be reiterated that pinning/morale is the main weakness of both Space Wolves and Grey Knights.
AuretiousTaak 39p · 708 weeks ago
@Nurglez - another very useful tactic that Tyranids can do vs Paladins is to encircle them and NOT engage. You use your fodder to run a unit ring around them (I don't care how many Psycannons you have, you aren't reliably killing all my tervigons before you're in charge range) to completely encircle them and well if you can shoot, you shoot, if not well you sit there. the Paladin rock can't move past it, in many cases it can't move at all, if it shoots the ring then it has to charge the ring or sit there for a turn because it wipes the ring out but can't actually charge past it - if another element in the army shoots the ring as well to try and create a hole for the Rock to move through, then that's another element in the army being countered by an otherwise useless threat unit. Consecutive rings of fodder closing around as each ring dies is great - it's a delaying strategy but it kills rocks so hard until you are in position where there is nothing left but the rock and your entire army can kill it at once.
nurglez · 708 weeks ago
Yes charging me when I was pinned was silly, was probably so caught up in the moment that he just wanted to kill them all. Even without the charge, Draigo and 10 paladins will mess up a squad of hormagants good :D it also didn't help that both doom tests I took I passed, and managed to activate some force weapons at useful times...
The main problem when making tactics to fight paladins, are the things in the force that aren't paladins. Strikes, interceptors, dk's, the oh so fabled Psyrifle dread and coteaz with henchmen can really enhance the usefullnes of paladins.
the6thdegree · 708 weeks ago
I do hate Paladins...lol
nurglez · 708 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 708 weeks ago
daboarder · 685 weeks ago
what I'm trying to say is that taking the apoc means that its far more reliable that it takes X shots to down a paladin and limits your exposure to extremes. its not a linear relationship.
gw junky · 708 weeks ago
Desc440 · 708 weeks ago
nurglez · 708 weeks ago
I love Draigo wing, as I love small elite forces. My gaming group has joked that I'm allergic to high model count armies :D
Reid · 708 weeks ago
TheKingElessar 71p · 708 weeks ago
Anon From Russia · 708 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 708 weeks ago
Scuzgob 96p · 708 weeks ago
and if theyre standing on an objective? its an easy matter for zoom in on the last turn to contest it
artemi7 78p · 708 weeks ago
Scuzgob 96p · 708 weeks ago
okay so i may have forgotten about fortitue, i was thinking of normal riflemen.
can still go for blowing arms off though
AuretiousTaak 39p · 708 weeks ago
Fortitude happens yes, but there are counters to it and they need to be factored into it especially when you are talking DraigoWing where the numbers they have are far smaller to yours in general.
Anon From Russia · 708 weeks ago
Scuzgob 96p · 708 weeks ago
Abakus · 708 weeks ago
I am a redhead who wants to play Draigo-wing! You can't tell me it's beatable! The internet outvotes you!
Looking forward to the rest of the series, Puppy!
Sam · 708 weeks ago
I collect a small 1500 point daemon army and I routinely get my ass handed to me by grey knights. No amount of tactics helps me when he sits on objectives and I cant outshoot or out assault the bastards.
In terms of KP he mostly wins based on the fact my units are bot more numerous and with focused firepower can take outa medium to large unit quite easily.
In addition solodins mean I can't focus all my units on the ensuing melee mid and have to guard an area so I a) either get an contested objective or outright lose it deep in my own territory.
Sorry, I'm coming off as a fuming neckbeard but I'm just kinda sad.
Looking forward to the rest of the articles too!
abusepuppy 121p · 708 weeks ago
Sorry, mang. I wish Daemons were better, too, but as it is they're kinda a joke.
Blackmoor · 708 weeks ago
Run Fateweaver and a Bloodthirster and you might be able to kill off his paladins.
If you are having trouble with GKs, then you are not running enough Khorne units with Blessings of the Blood God.
abusepuppy 121p · 708 weeks ago
GK shooting still messes you up and if they aren't Draigowing, Warp Quake as well. They strike first in CC, reroll misses, and have the potential to insta-kill your models even though you're immune to that. Also they can easily get S5/6 attacks and have plenty of utility powers and good mechanized units.
Fateweaver vs Paladins... eh, I wouldn't bet a lot on the Daemons army. Draigo + Libby + dudes stand pretty good chances of wrecking them. Draigo is instagibbing the 'Crushers with each swing, and the Paladins should be averaging just under three successful wounds each, so every two Pallies are killing a 'Crusher (plus one more for the Libby.) The full squad thus takes out a full Bloodcrusher squad and then some on average, even when charged.
Blackmoor · 708 weeks ago
Fateweaver keeps the Bloodthirster alive from shooting, and then the Bloodthirster charges Paladins with Strength 8 attacks. He should do enough wounds to make the Paladins break. A re-rollable 2+ inv save is going to be nearly impossible to get through.
Smurfykins · 708 weeks ago
billybox 52p · 708 weeks ago
If they're the rock, you're the scissors. If they sucked at killing Daemons they'd be the $hittie$t army ever.
Jabbdo 23p · 708 weeks ago
AuretiousTaak 39p · 708 weeks ago
Cheers mate.
Abakus · 708 weeks ago
serhag 40p · 708 weeks ago
chaosgerbil 48p · 708 weeks ago
nurglez · 708 weeks ago
1500 points
Draigo (duh)
10 paladins, 4 psycannon's, 2 hammer, 2 swords, 1 falchions, 5 halberds (2 mced so I have only 2 paladins in the same wound group)
5 paladins, 2 psycannon's, 1 hammer, 1 sword, 3 halberds (1mc for full wound allocation)
1 dk, heavy incinerator, great sword and personal teleporter.
I would let my friends re roll a kill point game vs me, as I haven't lost one yet. 4 kill points is really nasty, unless you play the range advantage, and I will deploy as aggressively as possible vs you. Dawn of war where I go first? I have 1240 points of my army on as my 1 hq and 2 troops...
By no way am I saying I'm a awesome player or anything, but generally people I have fought against have had real trouble fighting me.
abusepuppy 121p · 708 weeks ago
nurglez · 708 weeks ago
And I do rely on cover, but sometimes not that much....
abusepuppy 121p · 708 weeks ago
If you don't have cover, those S8+ guns are really tearing you apart. A 5++ just isn't enough.
timff8 · 708 weeks ago
Blackmoor · 708 weeks ago
The big block of Paladins can only shoot at one thing a turn so I would hid in my vehicles since it takes forever to kill the contents if you are unable to assault.
Depending on my army I might tank shock the crap out of the 10-man paladin squad. If you are able to get it to run you are in a lot of trouble.
Of course if I have 10 Purifiers and a Librarian in a Stormraven I will just assault you and kill you.
timff8 · 708 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 708 weeks ago
timff8 · 708 weeks ago
Vasara · 708 weeks ago
I'll be playing against Draigo Wing on thursday so you had very good timing. Not much new in the article, but good reminders for me what to do. First you made me allmost think that I'll be taking an auto win :D . But then the facts started to come out. I'm playing BA jumpers (on plus side: I have 2 dev squads) He has 3 dreads, teleporting DK, 10 interceptors and few solodins.
My tactic is to tie his dreads with Heroic Intervention and avoid the 2 paladin squads while taking pot shots to the DK. Any comments?
Warboss Stalin · 708 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 708 weeks ago
Warboss Stalin · 708 weeks ago
InfinitysEnd · 708 weeks ago
SneakyDan · 708 weeks ago
Food for thought, they are hard to shift, but only if you dont bring certain things. Meltaguns, and Lascannons. Hello, 5th edition, is that you calling? Yeah. My GK's have neither of those things, and thats why I struggled.
abusepuppy 121p · 708 weeks ago
Jabbdo · 708 weeks ago
Sure, Tank shocks suck, but played well you should be able to neutralize at least 5-6 of your opponents tanks before they get a single tank shock off (assuming normal speed tanks, its harder against fast tanks, don't even get me started on Mechdar/Deldar :P )
abusepuppy 121p · 708 weeks ago
As for how to kill them... Missiles aren't great, but they're better than many things. Lascannons are obviously pretty good. Lances, Railguns, Impaler Cannons... every army should have a fair number of the appropriate types of guns because if you don't, you had no way to deal with mech anyways. Relying entirely on Meltaguns is a sign of a bad list.
Jabbdo 23p · 708 weeks ago
With a 3+ cover save 20 Paladins should be fairly hard to remove. Most armies do have some amount of long ranged AT, but usually its ap3 or higher (autocannons, ML's) and of the one's that are ap1-2, so mainly lascannons, its unlikely your opponent will have the necessary 15-20 to kill you before you smack him.
Deldar is a nightmare matchup though :D Gonna playtest my own Draigowing against my friends Deldar tomorrow, I'll see how it goes :P
billybox 52p · 708 weeks ago
How about one to beat a Trygon Spam army? My elves have issues with that one.
abusepuppy 121p · 708 weeks ago
billybox 52p · 708 weeks ago
Last time I played Nids I got fairly manhandled, I had a static part (Wraithlords, Avatar, Guardians, Storm Gs, Seers) and three tanks. While the Nid mom pumped out babies (and never stopped), I sent my tanks around to take her out, leaving the static parts to defend the home objective. Two deep striking Tyranofexes spore-podded next to a) the tanks and b) home base, occupying both parts of my army while the rest slogged over. While he did roll really well (popped a tank immediately, then one a round), I felt like something could have been done better....
What about Wraithguard or Harlequins?
Cyklown 51p · 708 weeks ago
Also, they're bad. Harlies *shouldn't* be bad, but they cost a couple of points too much, their options a third too much, they don't get transports and they eat up a fire dragon slot.
Keep buying chassis. Buy spare turrets, too. If you have 6 chassis and spare turrets you can play smaller games.
Drad/
DAVU
DAVU
Fire Dragon squad
Fire Dragon squad
Falcon
Falcon
Isn't great, and at 8 you'll want to go up to a pair of prisms and pop the Dire Avengers in WS, but it's a start.
Multilasers on the FD transports, shuriken cannons on everything that can chinmount them, Holos, SS on the falcons, and pray you don't find yourself needing brightlances.
With the Dire Avenger transports being WS, you'd find yourself rocking BLs, which gives you a bit of breathing room, even as you give up torrents of s6 fire for templates of AP doom.
Eldar aren't the greatest army ever, but it *really* helps if you think of the list as a) a HQ that mucks up probability and lets you "cheat" during deployment, b) some *great*, albiet overpriced cars that upgrade to scoring for only 60 points c) Lots of s6 shots. S6 shots that have another gun protecting them. Also, s6 shots, d) Models with the word "fire" in them.
billybox 52p · 708 weeks ago
I know the basic MechDar formula, but partially due to my limitations on tanks, and partially because I'm bored with it, I've been playing around with other lists. I almost always take Eldrad (I should really finish painting him...) since I do love screwing with people with him, and he helps take the heat off of the Dragons. I have one Prism and need one more (or at least the top to one).
nurglez · 708 weeks ago
timff8 · 708 weeks ago
WestRider · 677 weeks ago
And that was even with my Zoanthropes being entirely failtastic, and not managing to do a single thing with 15 Warp Lance shots.