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| Black Matt |
"Hey Kirby, wondering if I could pick your brain. I'm tinkering with the current C:CSM codex, for no other reason than masochistic joy I suppose, and I'm trying to put together a competitive 2k list. I'm trying to avoid Plague Marines and Demon Princes, because one of my buddies plays a nurgle-army and I hate copy-catting. So I've come up with the following two lists. The first one seems to play like a Tau bastard. only instead of staying far away and shooting, you stay close and shoot, praying that the rhinos/land raiders will keep you from being assaulted. Its stacked with melta and other shooty goodness, just no solid CC ability. The second list is an armored-column type list, with a bit more ability in the CC department. Which would you consider superior? Also, any way you would change the better one? Raptors are a little expensive, but if they run behind the rhinos they can get close enough to tie up bubble-wrap. Also, at 2k I didnt know what else to do with the points. Thanks for the help!
~Shas'el Mike
chaos lord: slanesh, combi, dual lclaws
2x5 termies: slanesh, x4 combies, x1 hflamer:
2x1 LR:
4x5 chaos marines: x1 melta:
2x1 rhino
2x5 raptors: slanesh, x2 melta, champion/powerfist, x1 flamer
3x1 pred: ac/las
chaos lord: slanesh, dual lclaws
3x6 chosen: slanesh, x3 pw, x2 melta, champion/pfist
3x1 rhino: combi-weapon
4x5 chaos marines: x1 melta
2x1 rhino:combi-weapon
2x5 raptors: slanesh, x2 melta, champion/powerfist (one squad w/ flamer)
3x1 pred: aclc:"
Honestly Mike, I don't think either of them are very good. You've got decent weapon numbers for chaos and not too shabby infantry and tank numbers but there's nothing really there to be scary. I5 Chaos Termies are cute until they meet something which can take the hit and throw power weapon attacks back and we all know how meh the Chaos Land Raiders are currently - no Power of the Machine Spirit hurts.
I think if you're looking to go non-Nurgle based Chaos maximising the number of hulls you can take is your best bet. Go for something like 6x Chaos Marines and 3x Chosen in Rhinos all with an assortment of close ranged weapons and combis + Havoc Launchers on the Rhinos. You can either grab Havocs with Rhinos as well or keep the ACLC Preds that you have (though LoS to the sponsons can be an issue) or even go Oblits to shoot over the transports. You'll have alot of MEQ and tanks but a relatively short-ranged army outside of what you put in your HQ slot - could grab a couple of Lash Sorcerers to play around with that as well. Mass tank shocking + lash for clumping up on flamers and meltas to pop tanks.
If you have any points spare (unlikely, especially if you go Oblits) you can grab some Slaanesh icons and power weapons for counter-charging but I think you're going to be tight on points here anyway.
Logging you in...
GWvsJohn 44p · 700 weeks ago
For troops, 6 "double" melta CSM squad are a solid base. (with combi-melta or havoc rhinos, obvs)
For HQ, you have a few options, support sorceror (lash), CC sorceror (warptime), AT sorceror (bolt of change), wing lord (+/- mark of slaanesh or tzeentch, daemon weapon or claws) or termie lord (less likely to reach CC but looks awesome)
For heavy oblits or aclc preds
For elites small termie squads or melta chosen squads. Remember, chosen are not a CC unit
My current "best" CSM list has no daemon prince, a nurgle lord and 2 plague marine squads. You can easily make a CSM list that will compete at the FLGS level with your "stipulations."
_Axiomatic_ 47p · 700 weeks ago
shas'el mike · 700 weeks ago
giantkillertrl 37p · 700 weeks ago
Your HQs don't have much utility. I'd suggest switching them out for lash sorcs. Lash loses some luster in a mech-heavy environment, but if you can't de-mech your opponent somehow, you're going to lose anyway.
I like the chaos terminators in your first list, but I'd drop the mark of slaanesh and the land raiders you seem intent on transporting them in. Just deep strike them in so they can combi-melta a dangerous target then soak up fire for a couple turns because your opponent just got spooked by terminators landing behind his lines. +1 initiative isn't going to make much of a difference against most of the things terminators are scared of, anyway. Using Mark of Tzeentch to up their invul. to 4++ might.
If you're refusing to run dual-melta plague marines in your rhinos, go with GWvsJohn's suggestion and do melta/combi melta.
You're spending way too many points on raptors. Raptors in general are overcosted, and trying to make them anything more than a sacrificial melta unit is a waste of points. If you're insistent upon raptors, run them as a bare-bones 5 man squad with two meltaguns for 120 points.
Beyond what GWvsJohn suggested, I believe there's another viable option for heavy support: autocannon havocs. While they're a static firebase, they're cheaper than oblits, they do a great job of breaking light transports, and they unlock more rhino hulls.
Hope this helps!
-GK
Antebellum · 699 weeks ago
Fritz · 700 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 700 weeks ago
Scuzgob 96p · 700 weeks ago
blacksly · 699 weeks ago
1: Raptors and Chosen are too much bling-bling. They still die like other Marines, and end up too expensive. Drop down to nothing added but 2 melta per squad and you're done... Champions are generally too expensive for Chaos to add in to squads and remain efficient.
2: I would change one Predator to a squad of Oblits (2 is about even cost, 3 if you can spare points, but see #3). This way you set up 1 Pred in each corner and advance the Oblits behind the Rhinos, so you don't have much of a "I blocked my own LOS" issue.
3: Use the points saved from dropping champions, power weapons, etc, and add in Rhinos for the last 2 foot squads. With only 4 small Troop squads that are short range and likely to get beat in CC, you want them better protected. And you gain 4 anti-infantry shots and another combi-melta per squad, plus more Tank Shocking and blocking. If you ended up saving so many points from dropping power weapons, power fists, champions, icons, etc, add another Troop squad like the others. I'd feel happier with 5 squads since they're all pretty vulnerable... Plague Marines would be fine with 4, but they can take a lot of shooting.