Dakka |
LANDRAIDERS: The Power of The Machine Spirit Is In There!
So first off I’d (aka Crynn) like to say my obligatory hello to the 3++ community, and another hello for those I regularly speak to over the chatbawks. This has been one of my favourite blogs for quite a while now and Kirby has been nice enough to let me write a piece which hopefully will be up for you all to read. If you are reading this now then I have succeeded. Yay!
So I am here to talk about the humble Landraider. Maybe no longer the premier transport that it once was but still the Space Marines toughest and definitely most ominous looking vehicle. Some armies run scared of its ceremite plates, others laugh at the fact that this behemoth really has more bark than bite. However, for all its pros and cons, I have played a landraider in both my competitive Blood Angles army and competitive Grey Knights army and have found a lot of success with it winning no comp and comped tournaments alike with the landraider firmly holding its place in my lists. So if you’re one of those people that love its imposing looks and front heavy weapon array but find the raider lets you down in game, read on and hopefully you will find a way to add one back into your everyday lists. They really can be a lot better than most people give them credit for.
The best way to explain what a Landraider is good at, is explaining what it’s not that good at and some of the misconceptions that float around the interwebz regarding how to use them.
The Common Approaches to Using a Landraider:
1. Full frontal assault vehicle -
The landraider is not a ‘throw it down the guts of the enemy transport’. You do not just load it up with 5-8 assault terminators and say to your enemy ‘deal with this’, because any competent opponent with a reasonable list at his fingertips will do more than deal with it - they will punish you for being so reckless with 450+ points worth of your army. Many armies pack enough melta based weaponry to level a landraider or two in a single turn with little trouble. Take note, a landraider is not that much tougher than a Rhino when placed in half range of a melta weapon. To further this point I’ll provide some stats (Yes I am a sucker for a bit of sneaky math-hammer). When in half range of a rhino, the chance to destroy it with a melta weapon at BS4 is 31%. The chance to destroy a landraider in the same range is 21%. So you can see the land raider is only around 33% tougher than a rhino in this instance yet is over 7 times the cost. Also remember that in many cases, an immobilized raider is almost as good as a dead one so the chances of it becoming useless are higher again.
Running straight down the guts can sometimes be an option against those armies that cannot reliably bring down the beast such as Tyranids or Necrons. However, all these armies, and even ones that can bring it down, generally have many ways a clever general can neutralize this tactic such as blocking with vehicles, gaunt walls, or simply ignoring it to focus on other elements of your force (there are many I won’t go into here). This is the main tactic implored by most players who use a landraider, it isn’t particularly clever nor is it particularly very innovative; in fact it is just not really very good at all. The likely result of this is your raider getting destroyed leaving your premier assault unit stranded away from a mobile enemy force or engaged in an assault not on its terms and fighting a less than ideal target. Now this is not to say that you should never throw a land raider at an opponent it just means that for 250 points a good list built around having a landraider should be able to employ it for other roles when the head long approach is out of the question.
2. Weapons Platform -
The Land Raider isn’t an effective gun boat when it comes to destroying vehicles or infantry. This applies to all landraider variants. If you are taking it for the guns whether they be hurricane bolters and a twin linked assault cannon or twin lascannons you will still find that the raider will struggle to significantly impact the game through its shooting alone – it’s just not price efficient. Rather, this role should be left to those units that were designed to fill that place, predators, rifleman dreads and things of that nature. Now I don’t see this style of landraider played too often these days however it is still a mistake that I hear floating around especially in relation to the redeemer landraider which I believe is the most lacking variant mainly due to point no. 1. This is not to say that the Landraiders weapon systems should be ignored, quite the contrary they should be utilized. However, doing so whilst (generally) transporting an assault unit seems counter-productive in many ways. You can’t move 12 inches and use the weapons effectively or move and smoke to have a chance to live through any melta assault that the raider may be staring down.
So what are we left with? An expensive transport that isn’t always capable of running headlong into the enemy and when forced out of this role isn’t an effective gun boat? In short, yes. This is why they are not the most common unit outside of marine players trying to find a way to get their hammernators into CC ASAP. A more in depth analysis can reveal a few hidden tricks and talents that the old girl has up its sleeve.
Other Landraider Applications:
1. LOS blocking moveable Terrain –
Now obviously the land raider isn’t terrain but when you have armour 14 on all facings with Power of the Machine Spirit, most of the time you can act like it is almost impervious to many army’s long ranged fire power. We all know that not even lascannons are particularly effective against landraiders and they aren't even that common. Take this further in comparison to one of the most common anti-vehicle weapons in the game, especially amongst Marine armies, the missile launcher. Whilst a fantastic weapon, the missile launcher is barely capable of destroying a land raider over the course of a game -let alone a single turn. The best a single missile launcher can hope to do to is immobilize it and even at BS 4, the chance of that happening without cover is less than 2%. This makes the land raider excellent when utilizing the ‘denied flank’ deployment which I’m sure most of us are familiar with.
For instance, a Space Wolves player deploys his 3x5 missile launcher long fangs so that roughly 1 is the middle of his deployment zone and 1 unit is to either side of the first; terrain will limit his optimal deployment further. Deploying second allows you to deploy on one flank with the land raider exposed but most to all of you army huddled behind it. Most SW armies have missiles and melta guns as their main or only anti-tank weapons meaning you have effectively taken away their whole turn of firing. Missiles bounce, bolters and every other anti-infantry weapon can’t see their targets and suddenly the advantage of the first turn is gone. I have done this to many a wolf player and it is not that difficult to completely hide 2 rhino chassis and a dread behind a raider. You can also use this same idea to then outshoot your opponent even with less ranged firepower than them. I do this with my BAs and GKs frequently. Simply by pivoting the land raider so that your hidden units can only see one long fang unit (and thus only one long fang unit can see you) you can then still mitigate the fire from the other 2 with the landraider and concentrate all your own ranged fire on eliminating the one unit you have allowed to see the rest of your force.
These kind of tricks can force your opponent to come to you allowing you to in some ways control the enemy or force them into plays that are unsuited to their lists. Once the enemy is coming to you the Landraider is able to be effective as a counter assault delivery system which leads to point two.
2. Counter Assault –
If you want to make sure your Landraider and the unit within fight their battles on their own terms, a good way to do this is by using the Raider as a counter-assault vehicle. If you are able to bring the enemy to you, you can avoid having to drive at them pop smoke and hope that their melta doesn’t crack your raider open (or any of the other tactics one can use to stop a Landraider delivering death). Instead the melta is more likely to move into your assault threat range (between 21” - 21.5” depending on the size of the base of the unit within the landraider) and not be in range to get the extra D6 pen on the raider (melta range on a meltagun is about 20-21" out of a transport). The only really common threatening weapon to this style of Landraider play is a Multimelta. These are generally mounted on flimsy chassis such as land-speeders and attack-bikes and are easily destroyed before they can get within 12” of the raider. Lances are similarly generally mounted on flimsy chassis but have greater range though it still takes quite a few to bring down a landriader. At BS 4 with no cover, it takes an average of 12 S8 lance weapons to be precise. There are other weapons such as railguns and manticores that are effective against raiders at long range but are far less common. When these threats do show up it's imperative that you can deal with them quickly or they can ruin your day.
3. Transport Suppression –
One of the hardest parts about destroying a vehicle is actually rolling a 5+ on the vehicle damage chart. The landraider neither possess the number of shots nor the AP1 to reliable destroy vehicles. What it does possess is extremely accurate high str weapons that are able to multi-target. This allows it to target two individual transports, reliably hit (88% per shot) and reliably get a roll on a damage chart. This is of course the ability to suppress opposing mech for a turn. Even just a shaken result is going to stop tanks moving whilst stunned results stop it from moving and shooting. When playing low model count armies that are unable to target multiple units such as Draigowing, a Landraider can be quite useful to stun those transports allowing the Paladins to catch their opponents.
4. The ultimate sling shot –
For those who are unfamiliar with the term sling shot let me explain. A sling shot is when you use independent character (usually a fast one with a jump pack for instance) to increase the move distance of a unit by attaching them to that unit in the movement phase. For example. A unit of Blood Angel Assault Terminators want to charge a unit of chaos space marine which are 14 inches away. The Terminators move up 6” but will still be out of range to charge this turn. The player then decides to sling shot them into combat using a Librarian with a jump pack attached to a nearby Assault Squad. The Librarian leaves the Assault Squad and joins the Terminators by jumping in front of them by 2 inches. The Terminator unit now includes the Librarians who is an effective 3" further away from the Terminators (2" coherency + 1" base). The Terminators are now an effective 5" away from their target instead of 8”. Using the Librarian the terminators can now charge.
Consider the land raider the jump pack for the ICs. By putting a unit of terminators next to a landraider with one or more ICs on board you can effectively extend the assault range of that unit simply by driving the land raider up ahead of the terminators and joining the ICs to the front of the terminators. If you were to have 2 ICs with normal size bases you can effectively increase the assault range of a unit next to a landraider by 6”! Combine this with the fact that whatever else was in the raider can still jump out and charge and suddenly the enemy can find a few of their squads locked in a multi-assault they were never expecting to be in.
5. Aura Expansion –
This is quite a simple concept however it is again an unwritten ability a landraider has. Any aura effect your army may have can have its range extended simply by putting the model creating the aura inside the Landraider. Remember that aura effects are then measured from the hull of the landraider. Unit abilities or wargear such as the blood chalice from a BA sang priest, shrouding from a GK librarian or null zone from a space marine librarian all have their area of effect increased by being inside a landraider and for something like shrouding this can be important especially when the landraider is already providing cover for other units.
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Now obviously not every army can employ all of these tactics however if you are looking to take a land raider in your list or are wanting an excuse to field one, try to build your army in a way that allows it take advantage of some of the utility that a landraider can offer.
I hope some of you have found this useful or if not, perhaps a little interesting. Remember to sometimes think outside the box because if it has been done before, well, it has been done before, you aren’t going to surprise anyone with that.
Regards,
Crynn
carldooley · 700 weeks ago
kildash · 700 weeks ago
TheKingElessar 71p · 700 weeks ago
J4br4 41p · 700 weeks ago
Squ1rReL · 700 weeks ago
Comrade · 700 weeks ago
Really, really average would be a better term.
SinSynn 107p · 700 weeks ago
They're a pain in my Xenos @ss.
So...that's saying something, I guess.
A properly used Landraider can be quite an effective weapon...I've been on the receiving end of so g-damn many.....
The thing is you HAVE to devote resources into dealing with it, as well as the contents.
...
The contents are never fun. The contents are usually horrible.
Even AFTER I shoot the friggin' thing (or slam it with a MC, or whatevs), generally something along the lines of LC/TH/SS Terminators pop out of it like an Imperial surprise party and proceed to be evil and whatnot.
Did I mention I hate Landraiders?
Yeah...they suck.
I suppose from an...Imperial perspective (ick), they're an expensive unit.
And of course, they can suffer from that rendom 'bunch of 6's' that can mess the whole thing up (although it makes ME happy. Heh), but waddayagonnado? It can happen to any unit...
As someone who pays way to much for things like Carnifexes and T-Fexes and Devilfish and manditory Firewarriors and their Devilfish Transports, I would really love the option of a Xenos equivalent.
Now that Stormraven thingy, that seems a lil' costly for what it is....if I'm, y'know, thinking like an Imperial (ick).
bugsculptor · 700 weeks ago
I like seeing a raider coming, it often means gaunt walls and devourer shots followed by a counter charge with paroxysm are going to take care of the main enemy offensive and that I'll have more than enough hive guard shots to take out all the rhino chassis vehicles pretty quickly.
timff8 · 700 weeks ago
bugsculptor · 700 weeks ago
timff8 · 700 weeks ago
It's surprisingly survivable, as it can move flat-out and fire a weapon, and melta weapons don't get their double-pen. Even just at combat speed a Libby can shield it.
Yeah, four AP1 krak missiles tend to do that. Hence why I am not so scared of the Grey Knights version, but paint it red and it's suddenly oodles more nasty.
Latedave · 700 weeks ago
SneakyDan · 700 weeks ago
Good Article. Once main missing point is that if you are taking Land Raiders, take more than one. With the exception of spearheading (What I call your movable terrain concept) you really need more than one of them to have some effect.
If your intent is to deliver assault units, grab 3 Crusaders, and put them inside. Yes, melta is horridly effective vs 1 vehicle with smoke. It struggles however with 3 of them, all packing the same threat. I know this seems counter intuitive, because its spending more points on a bad thing, but its one of those situations where if you are going to commit to a rock army, make it a triple rock - ala BA codex, where 15 hammernators piling out of 3 crusaders, with priest bubbles hanging out of them for range, can be an absolute CLUSTERFUCK to deal with.
timff8 · 700 weeks ago
Neil · 700 weeks ago
If an army can easily deal with one land raider, it can probably easily deal with 2 (or more). The armies that can't deal with land raiders will have so much trouble dealing with a single well-used raider that you can use the rest of your force to take them out, rather than sinking 500 points in - diminishing returns. There is some merit to the triple-raider list which auto-doesn't-lose against armies that can't hurt raiders easily (like most daemon lists) but I don't really rate double raiders.
Reid · 700 weeks ago
TinCanMan · 700 weeks ago
Desc440 · 700 weeks ago
Comrade · 700 weeks ago
timff8 · 700 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 700 weeks ago
Desc440 · 700 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 700 weeks ago
Which you would send what charging out of, exactly? Some kind of high-power assault unit, presumably? Which, for most of the codices the LR is available in is... Terminators.
>durability
As pointed out in the article, a LR isn't all that much more durable than a Rhino against the most common AT weapon in the game. Yes, it's immune to being stunlocked, but it has no fire points, so that's irrelevant.
>transport capacity
Not actually all that much higher. Only the Redeemer actually pushes significantly above what a Rhino carries, and that chassis has its own problems.
I'm not saying they're the same vehicle, I'm saying they're the two extremes on the scale, and the scale doesn't actually go that far. There's no need for a "midrange" transport because that doesn't actually serve a useful role.
timff8 · 700 weeks ago
I would disagree on the second point, not because meltas aren't the most common weapon, but because they're only the most common SINGLE weapon for performing AT duties. Most AT weapons you'll find aren't melta, but are of the "moderate strength, long range, possibly multiple-shots" variety. Undoubtedly if you tally up all anti-tank weapons at all the tourneys, you'll get more meltas than any other single weapon. But, the sum of meltas, heat lances, and possibly a few other weapons will be far lower than the sum of autocannons, Tau plasma rifles and missile pods, missile launchers, psycannons, assault cannons, and so on.
The bump even to 12 models over 10 is critical though, as you can now carry a full-strength (in many cases) squad, plus one or two characters that make that squad probably in the realm of half-again as scary.
Joe Mama · 700 weeks ago
Desc440 · 700 weeks ago
timff8 · 700 weeks ago
Desc440 · 700 weeks ago
razorlead · 700 weeks ago
Prometheus 101p · 700 weeks ago
General Smooth · 700 weeks ago
Anyhow - thanks for that. I think though that the crusader is actually a decent gun boat. It can knock about 4 marines in one turn and geunuinely threatens landraiders at the right distance. It can put out more dakka on the move = to a few dakka preds.
Vasara · 700 weeks ago
Prometheus 101p · 700 weeks ago
I've tried the godhammer a few times, not a fan. It wants to sit back and shoot, and while it does work OK at that, it's wasting a lot of potential.
Desc440 · 700 weeks ago
Prometheus 101p · 700 weeks ago
On the other hand it, that can work ok as a counter-assaulter, but I don't really do much of a gunline so I don't have much use for it. I do own one, though, and used it in Ard boyz both qualifiers and semis......but that was more because I couldn't fit in a proper "payload" to staff it in addition to the redeemer and Stormraven. My general impression was "meh"
Desc440 · 700 weeks ago
The way I've used mine is in a list where everything is designed to move at combat speed while laying down a hail of fire, slowly but surely getting closer to the enemy, and in that context, the Phobos works well.
timff8 · 700 weeks ago
Absolutely. I don't really think the LR was designed to be moving at 12", unless, like all other vehicles, it absolutely has to. I really lament that BAs couldn't make theirs Fast. I would gladly pat an extra 15 pts. to fire 2 weapons when moving at 12".
Desc440 · 700 weeks ago
Deffo.
Prometheus 101p · 700 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 700 weeks ago
Prometheus 101p · 700 weeks ago
No idea what you're talking about with the Redeemer and Hurricane bolters.
abusepuppy 121p · 700 weeks ago
IGNORE ME!
timff8 · 700 weeks ago
Prometheus 101p · 700 weeks ago
Desc440 · 700 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 700 weeks ago
That's basically exactly the opposite of what you said the entire time when we were arguing about LRs before.
Prometheus 101p · 700 weeks ago
timff8 · 700 weeks ago
As you say, the Crusader is really just for cramming as many Termies into one unit as possible, which seems like over-kill to me.
The Crusader's Hurricane Bolters have never done anything for me. They kill somewhere in the are of four guys a game when I use them. Woo.
The Flamestorm cannons on the other hand, always make me laugh with appreciation as they dismiss a score of scum to hell. I never rush the LRR up to use them, as it's suicide, but having it hang back and wait for some foolhardy unit to rush at it and then broadside it. Firing just once tends to net me more kills that the Hurricanes firing four times.
I find good use for the phobos pattern(Godhammer is the pattern of the lascannons on its sponsons). As Crynn suggests, using it to suppress vehicles and transports is excellent. Like a BA pred, it can scoot along at 6" a turn and fire its lascannons, and that's two vehicles (likely) that aren't going to be bothering me next turn.
Prometheus 101p · 700 weeks ago
This one time, (at band camp), though, my DE opponent blew off the psycannon and MM on the LRC, and then I stalked around with the thing, killing tons of stuff with Str 5 bolters. That was fun. Not a typical situation, though.
timff8 · 700 weeks ago
Prometheus 101p · 700 weeks ago
I've seen a lot of forum monkeys declare, "Never put psybolts on the LRC!" That's kinda a red herring, though, because truth is, even on a normal LRC, you only wind up using the hurricane bolters like once per game. Having the str 7 assault cannon is WAAAYYYYY more important.
abusepuppy 121p · 700 weeks ago
Becoming not defensive weapons just... isn't worth the points. You're paying to lose flexibility and gain... a little bit of usability against enemy transports?
Prometheus 101p · 700 weeks ago
You said the hurricanes are for when you're immobilized (not "HBs", that's for heavy bolters) and I agree mostly. But then why does it matter if they're no longer defensive? You're not moving!
As far as to whether it is worth it to upgrade the hurricanes to Str 5 ......completely not the point. What is worth it is turning my assault cannons into psycannons at Str 7. Compared to that, the hurricane's could fall off, for all I care.
abusepuppy 121p · 700 weeks ago
>Mostly there for when you're immobilized
>mostly
Those are the words I used. Not "exclusively." That's a different word.
With regards to the Assault/Psycannon... I just don't feel it's that big of a difference. If I'm only shooting one gun, it's the Multimelta because AP1 is something that is good. If I'm firing multiple guns, I'm probably shooting the MM at a tank and the AC+Bolters at some infantry, unless I really need to break a second tank for some reason. The performance boost against Rhinos is decent (50% more damage results), but against everything else, especially infantry, it's either middling or irrelevant.
Prometheus 101p · 700 weeks ago
Psycannon has 22.5% and 9.52%, respectively.
Seems like a pretty big difference to me.
abusepuppy 121p · 700 weeks ago
Prometheus 101p · 700 weeks ago
Multi-meltas on a fast platform, primarily bikes and land speeders are a threat. Static MMs and reg meltas are not.
Threat range of the payload inside the LR is ~21.5". The opponent cannot, for the most part threaten you with melta from outside that range. You might get metla'd the turn after you charge, but frankly, the enemy usually has other problems (like Draigo and some paladins) to deal with at that point.
abusepuppy 121p · 700 weeks ago
When I say "eat Melta" there, I don't mean they're never going to be in your threat range- as you point out, that's basically impossible. What is much more likely is that they'll throw some transports in front of you, denying you a good charge lane to their main forces, and hop out to melta you next turn. If your payload gets out of the LR- great, they've done their job, as your threat radius is massively shortened and it's not terribly likely you'll be able to charge them even if you get lucky and shoot them out of their transport. More likely you're faced with either wasting a turn maneuvering around the Rhinos (and trying to stay out of Melta range) or disembarking to charge said Rhinos, neither of which are really furthering your goals any and both of which give them more time to shoot at you.
Prometheus 101p · 700 weeks ago
timff8 · 700 weeks ago
Crynn · 700 weeks ago
Regards,
Crynn
timff8 · 700 weeks ago
Are you happy now?
Are you?
ARE YOU HAPPY NOW??!!!!!
Pär Larsson · 700 weeks ago
But it's also against the spirit of the rule that says no unit without a special charge distance modifier thing should be able to charge more than 6". Terminators don't all of a sudden get faster on the ground from some random dude from another squad jumping out in front of them.
But hey, if all you want to do is win, then go ahead I suppose. Me and my fluff army will be over in the corner playing against someone else.
Desc440 · 700 weeks ago
artemi7 78p · 700 weeks ago
pop421 · 700 weeks ago
-20’ threat range and the ability to charge after tank shock (meaning after having cross bubblewrap unit), the landraider is quite potent in making CC unit useful.
-Size and 3 exit: the threat range of the unit within the landraider is then quite significant. It also enable to do 2 charge: one with an IC and one with unit.
All in all this 2 advantages are very complementary. They help to hit what you want to hit with your CC unit and make it more survivable my enabling multiple charge or eradication of 3+ ennemy unit in a define zone of the enemy line.
Drunken Angel · 700 weeks ago
The math on the survivability of the Land Raider vs the Rhino begs an article posing the question of the survivability of the Land Raider vs the Storm Raven. AV 14 all round vs AV 12 all round negating the melta bonus.
I figure the Storm Raven comes out on top marginally as its gets were its needs to be faster so less chance to get immobilized getting there and can drop a Dread and an assault unit. I would like to read more, and yes I love Storm Ravens.
artemi7 78p · 700 weeks ago
Drunken Angel · 700 weeks ago
The math on the survivability of the Land Raider vs the Rhino begs an article posing the question of the survivability of the Land Raider vs the Storm Raven. AV 14 all round vs AV 12 all round negating the melta bonus.
I figure the Storm Raven comes out on top marginally as its gets were its needs to be faster so less chance to get immobilized getting there and can drop a Dread and an assault unit. I would like to read more, and yes I love Storm Ravens.
Straker · 700 weeks ago
Victor · 673 weeks ago
I'm assuming of course that you have more supression fire in your list (let's say Riflemen dreads or Missile launchers) ore some melta to damage the other vehicles in a more reliable way than only 1 lascannon hit.