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Monday, April 2, 2012

Necrons & MSU

Digital Wastrel

There has been quite a bit of debate about this topic of late so I thought I'd lay some information down on it. The end conclusion is going to be something familiar to most who read this blog, have worked with recent armies in 5th edition or work in a scientific field - a compromise is often 'best' but there are both positives and negatives to each stance. The opposite of MSU (multiple small units) is of course larger units. There are both strengths and weaknesses to both concepts within the 5th edition paradigm of 40k and it'll be these strengths and weaknesses we are going to apply to the Necron army specifically.


It is the belief that MSU only works for Marines. Although MSU works very well with Marines thanks to their solid all-round statline and cheap but relatively durable transports, other armies are quite capable of working this concept into their lists. Whether partially or completely though is something different and we'll often fine, outside of a few exceptions, Marines are going to be the more effective pure MSU builds whilst non-Marines often do better incorporating but not fully embracing the concept. Necrons fit into this mould quite nicely whilst still having MSU options.

So let's look at this in the light of the Necron codex. The majority of this is focused on Immortals and Warriors as they are the unit you can take the most of whilst also bringing in transport options to play. In terms of MSU units, Immortals are really your best bet. With a statline nearly identical to a Space Marine and S5 guns to boot, Immortals can easily spam out your Troops selections with minimum squads and leave you with a solid scoring presence better than a similar number of Marines thanks to Reanimation Protocols (though slightly more expensive). Necrons and specifically Immortals, then have two nice advantages which work well within this theme. Royal Courts can add squad members to those Troop units and effectively create more scoring models while simultaneously providing said units with extra utility from the basic addition of anti-tank to game affecting abilities (i.e. tremorstaves, solar pulses, harps, etc.). This obviously jumps the price of each individual unit up quite a bit though...

Night Scythes are also a good reason for MSU - like many transports out there, Night Scythes provide extra firepower but can only be bought when specific Necron units are bought. Having less units means less Night Scythes. Although their cost is higher than your standard Razorback, consider for an extra 25 points over an Assback/LasPlas you're getting 12" extra movement, skimmer status, deep striking options (yay?) and suppression resistance. Yes 100 points is expensive for AV11 but Night Scythes are not to be underestimated and can really make good use of Night Fight and their movement to bring their Tesla to bear.

On the flip side however, well not everything is an Immortal and your average statline outside of the Elite units (T5/3+) isn't as good as your bog standard Marine. A Warrior for example is T4/4+ and whilst Reanimation Protocols can bring their survivability to a similar level for less points, MSU generally does not take advantage of the RP rule. It can and it often will come up, but it's a lot easier to torrent down units if they are only 5-7 strong compared to 15-20. Such large squads are more likely to benefit from RP and are excellent places for the expensive Res Orb to really jump their durability. Small squads do not have this advantage. That being said, RP is not something which to base an entire strategy on. A unit can still be wiped in a single phase even if it is large(ish).

Which brings us to... the obvious counter - Necrons are really weak in combat. Whilst their overall statline is pretty solid, few units have buffs to their WS or Attacks and most units are I2. This means when they lose combat and run, they are very likely to be run down and unlike Marines, they do not have a rule which binds all other rules to its will and thus can survive being swept. That 15-20 strong unit therefore has a major fatal flaw and whilst you can limit this (Necron Lord attachments, bubble-wraps, etc.) running a list solely of units like this is going to require you to sink a lot of points to mitigating this weakness or have something your opponent can really exploit.

When all is said and done however, it really depends on the squad within the army whether or not MSU or larger squads is the way to go. Small Warrior squads, even with Crypteks, are not something you generally want to see a lot of. Even with Ghost Arks, T4/4+ (perhaps with two T4/3+ models in there) isn't the most resilient of statlines and you're going to need more bodies if these guys are going anywhere other than backfield (where they can make a "cheap" scoring option with Lance/Harp Crypteks in Ghost Arks). Small Immortal squads are something different entirely, especially with attached Crypteks and the potential for RP. At the same time, running slightly larger squads (i.e. 7 strong) isn't going to be a bad thing though the only benefit is more bodies & S5 firepower (you're not gaining extra access to special/heavy weapons). The more Immortal/Warrior squads you are able to fit into the army construct however, the more Night Scythes/Ghost Arks you can run.

FoC slots and can hand out more hurt with one unit but have a bigger footprint. Other units such as Wraiths don't really work as well at smaller squad levels as they need the extra attacks and bodies to damage the opponent and not pee their robotic panties over missile launchers.

All of this can be applied to any unit within any codex but with such a diversity in basic statlines and how certain rules interact within the Necron army, Necrons are very capable of running both MSU and non-MSU units. Running a full MSU army is also quite possible but obviously within a specific unit framework. In theory, mixing both constructs into an army list appropriately while simultaneously covering other important bases (anti-tank, anti-infantry, scoring, etc.) is going to produce the most robust, efficient and flexible lists. Simply dropping in a large unit into an MSU army isn't going to work unless you put some work and thought into it, just like adding a couple small units onto an army based on large units is going to bring more pain than gain.

Next post you can see SirBiscuits attempt to bring this concept to life in a 2000 point list =D.

Comments (78)

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One big problem with the MSU immortal scythe/death scythe army is a lot of players are waiting for scythe models so they done make one too small and have to replace it later. I think when the model finally comes out, we'll see more scythe spam.
Warrior squads with crypteks also lack really nice mixed armor save wound allocation. Not to mention the fact that they make multi shot anti transport guns scary against your whole army when trying to save points in a scythe spam list.
1 reply · active 695 weeks ago
I wouldn't worry about wound allocation on 1 wound models that have an irremovable FNP save. In a scythe list It's likeliest that you'll walk the immortal or warriors on from the rear to give them the best shooting prospects. Crypteks are still great and I hope we see them in every book that a unit of that type could apply to (Eldar, Chaos, a not shitty Tyranid codex with a Malthrope/ Venomthrope/ Zoanthrope unit in the same vein.) The only thing bad about Crypteks is that they are nearly a necessity in every build, whether they are there for manipulation(tremor staves, solar pulses) or long range fire support (Staff of Destruction). I think that's the biggest shortcoming in the entire codex.
Well, I don't have enough experience with Necrons to really contribute anything, but it's cool to see my purple warriors up at the top of the article :D
2 replies · active 693 weeks ago
Where'd you get the purple rods?
Antebellum's avatar

Antebellum · 693 weeks ago

It looks painted on.
This is what I don't understand, these 5 man "grot" squads of warriors. By playing MSU with Necrons your playing right into you opponents hands, as the most import Necron rule is Reanimation Protocols, which you can't use to its fullest extent in MSU builds. Playing MSU style Necrons is going to put you on the fast track to the bottom tables, its just not efficient for them. I've seen 5 man immortal squads get wiped in a turn, but I've seen ten man immortal squads survive whole games while being punished with insane levels of fire power. Oh and scythes are bad, their just flat out bad. I mean seriuosly your going to spam out 90pt transports with thin as paper armor in an army that can be all 13s on front and side arcs. Also the scythe fails at the most basic part of being a transport, when you buy a razorback and drive it up field, when it gets blown up, the guys fall out ontto the objective, a scythe gets blown up mid field and their shunted into reserve, I mean things can't even transport your models to the other side of the board, their the worst transports in the game. See whats going to happen with codex Necrons is that people are going to play a bunch of MSU style scythe lists and when those go down in flames poeple well declare the codex a failure, instead of learning how to really play them.
12 replies · active 695 weeks ago
Except people playing those lists have had success and the codex is being hailed as a generally strong one. RP is a booster shot, not a complete strategy. The old necron spam wall of death doesn't work so you have to bring more mobility to the game which means fewer infantry models to make room for those transports.
I know how to play the newcrons lol. Its with 8-10 man squads of warriors in ghost arks laying down ungodly fire power and being generally unkillable. Oh and backed by 3 triarch stalkers. =)
>8 Warriors + Ghost Ark
>ungodly firepower

Because twelve Bolter shots at 12" is an unbeatable strategy, amirite?

AV13 wall is a perfectly valid army, but your conceit that nothing else is strikes me as downright absurd.
12 bolter shots at 12''?
Am i missing something cos i count 18 gauss flayer for 36 dice at 3 targets at 12''
Meant "at over twelve inches," and was thinking arrays of four, not five. That still comes out to thirteen shots, eight hits, four wounds, 1.3 failed saves against MEQ targets- not exactly what I'd call "ungodly firepower" when you're clocking in over 200pts.

You generally will not be able to fire both Arrays in a given turn, though, unless you are very close to the enemy (and thus melta-bait.) It occasionally works out, but it's about as common as hitting the same target with both Redeemer sponsons.
>as the most import Necron rule is Reanimation Protocols

Since a major assertion of the article is that this isn't entirely true, you may want to back that up with something stronger than nothing.

>Oh and scythes are bad, their just flat out bad

Welp, opinion dismissed. Yeah, how crushingly terrible it must be to be an unshakeable Fast Skimmer with one of the best guns in the game bolted to your nosecone.
They're not unshakable, and even so - that just means you can always move on a 2+. Eliminate not shooting on a 4+. What are you going to do with your "flyers" going to do when all they can do is move?

Scythes aren't useless. But they aren't as awesome as some people proport. Their gun isn't close to the best gun either. 4 TL shots Str 7 AP -. Hmm. TL Assault Cannons, Rifleman Dreads (Psy-ammo or not). Long Fang missile squads. It is the AP - really makes it iffy.
You're neglecting to remember Tesla and the Arc quality which make the gun significantly more dangerous than the baseline stats you've given. I'll admit the Str 5 "pulse" from arc isn't amazing but it does add some dakka. Tesla is just downright scary as you average one additional shot per turn.
Um, what? No, I don't think you understand the Living Metal rule. On a 2+, you ignore Shaken; on a 4+, you ignore Stunned. "Ignore" means "ignore all parts of," including the part that stops you from shooting. 85% of the time, shaken does absolutely nothing to you- now, that doesn't make it IMPOSSIBLE to suppress you, but it makes it highly unlikely.

Don't think of Tesla as four TL shots- think of it as 5.3 hits. Riflemen average about two-thirds of that. Long Fangs are a similar number. The Tesla rule makes your averages MUCH better than would be expected from raw number of shots alone.
AP- is obviously a downside, but the army is already taking that into account- your assumed strategy is to shake tanks and nothing more when using Tesla. It can still kill things, even with the penalty, and when it does that's a nice little bonus, but the presumption is that it will not happen enough to matter- so we assume it doesn't, and that's just fine.
Granted - I phrased it incorrectly.

As for the shooting - Riflemen are Str 8, AP 4. And Long Fangs are Str 8, AP 3. The extra Str and having an AP value make their hits worth more against any target.

So its just fine not to kill tanks? You're spending all those points to simply inconvenience them? Are they a mono-build that solely concentrates on shooting and has no CC ability? So what if you can stop them from shooting - you are simply forcing them into going into CC in order to kill you... something that the Necrons can not do very well.

Stunlocking tanks is a good tactic for Tyranids because it then forces the enemy out of the best zone in which to deal with the enemy army - Shooting. But by doing it in a Necron army, you stop part of their shooting, for a few turns... but then what? What is your endgame tactic? They'll simply drive over to your exposed, small sized, vulnerable squads and assault them. And with 7 guys with 4+ saves, they don't last very long.

And then there is any AV14 you meet, for which you have D3 flying Warscythes attacks to deal with.

There are major holes in this army list. If you go up against anything beyond your ideal opponent (no Spotlights, all light armour MSU) then you are in trouble. Consider a mirror match, even. You're in even worse trouble.
Riflemen are S7; Psyflemen are S8. Sure, both those units are, in their own ways, potentially better firepower than a Night Scythe, but the Fangs are _significantly_ less resilient and both of them take up slots, whereas the NS effectively does not.

>So its just fine not to kill tanks? You're spending all those points to simply inconvenience them?

Yup. The actual killing will come from the ten Lances and two Warscythes for the most part, and only occasionally from those sixes on penetrating hits with Tesla (or from tearing off all the guns and immobilizing it twice.)

>So what if you can stop them from shooting - you are simply forcing them into going into CC in order to kill you..

So their guys are gonna, what, disembark and run across the field at me? I'm getting plenty of Stunned and Immobilized results from my Tesla also, you know.

>But by doing it in a Necron army, you stop part of their shooting, for a few turns... but then what? What is your endgame tactic?

Shut down their ability to affect me and force them to either disembark (which is suicide with all the Tesla flying around) or sit, stunlocked, in their own deployment zone, or advance their force on me piecemeal to be destroyed. All of those are acceptable results; obviously I move onto the objectives as well, but the essential game plan is to suppress the enemy and fight a battle where he can't effectively retaliate.

>And then there is any AV14 you meet, for which you have D3 flying Warscythes attacks to deal with.

AV14 is admittedly a problem for the list- it relies on the Warscythes (and, potentially, Scarabs) to deal with it. However, the unit getting out of that AV14 very rarely scares Necrons- Assault Terminators, Purifiers, etc, all die in droves to the massed firepower the list can muster. Moreover, Night Scythes can easily "wall" off any potential charges, forcing the contents to assault vehicles that moved 12".

I already explained why the MSU nature of the list helps mitigate the opponent's Searchlights. What other lists do you think are going to give it trouble? (Remember, only a small number of armies actually get free Searchlights.)
I know you're trolling, but humor me for a bit.

"the most import Necron rule is Reanimation Protocols"

Like how Acute Senses are the most important rules for DE and SW? The most important rules for Necrons are Entropic, Tesla and Solar Pulses. They all change how the army plays significantly and make up for what is on paper a very weak anti-tank set up. RP is a nice bonus for larger units, but it really doesn't lend itself to being a rule you build around considering how easy it is to negate. Necrons have no way to mitigate the effect of morale or sweeping advance on ignoring RP, apart from Praetorians, and we know how useful they are.

"Oh and scythes are bad, their just flat out bad."

Cool supporting evidence, bro.

"I mean seriuosly your going to spam out 90pt transports with thin as paper armor in an army that can be all 13s on front and side arcs."

So the guy talking out of his ass doesn't understand the rules? I'm shocked.

"Also the scythe fails at the most basic part of being a transport, when you buy a razorback and drive it up field, when it gets blown up, the guys fall out ontto the objective, a scythe gets blown up mid field and their shunted into reserve, I mean things can't even transport your models to the other side of the board, their the worst transports in the game."

So you have no idea how Scythes work at all, do you? They don't work as traditional transports like Razorbacks. Night Scythes are supplementary firepower with the ability to zoom a unit across the board if need be. They function more like GK Razorbacks, adding firepower to a unit that doesn't need to be huddled in a box because of its durability, damage output and assault weapons. Night Scythes also provide movement blocking like any other skimmer. Popping units into reserve sucks for assault troops or units with short-ranged weapons, of which Necrons have, I dunno, 2? It's nice for that 65 point scoring unit that loves going back into reserves so it can grab objectives late. Since your whole army can advance and fire to full effect, popping back into reserves nearly at will is a nice little trick to keep your backfield secure without having to keep a unit there twiddling its thumbs.

Look, Reecius, I know you want to support your group, but there are much better ways to go about it. Not posting shit is a good start.
From personal experience here: Units of 5 are really, really easy to kill and only really get utility as a backfield scoring unit. Heck, I don't even buy those guys a transport. I find that going up to about 7-8 really makes a huge difference, much more than simply adding two models might indicate.
8 replies · active 694 weeks ago
The squads do end up being ~7 strong in most cases, thanks to Crypteks being around.
I meant before crypteks. I'm also referring specifically to warriors since that's what I use most of the time. I should have made that clear in my previous statement.
Warriors aren't a part of the "standard" MSU Necron list (although they do make appearances in Ghost Arks or on foot sometimes, but those are a very different purpose.)
A 5-man unit is easy to kill. 5 5-man units and their transports are much trickier to wipe out.

MSU 101
Only if those 5-man units are inside their transport.
BZZT, sorry.

When those 5 (7 actually) man units are protected by Night Fight and taken in enough numbers, they're plenty durable.
So, they're plenty durable for a turn or two, then?
It's adds to their durability. 7-man squads aren't very tough on their own, this much is obvious. MSU works by taking lots of small, cheap, fragile units with a high damage output. Sure, you can lose 1 pretty easily, but it's harder to lose 4.

Once again, MSU 101
"the most import Necron rule is Reanimation Protocols" - More than Night Fighting? I prefer the Solar Pulse as a game changer. And Entropic Strike is also a reasonable candidate.

Night Scythes are 1-and-done transports. You use them to move a squad of Immortals up 15" from your front line (or, say, 12" since you have to disembark from base and the nose will probably stick out further) into cover, then they act as gunboats. They do put out a lot of firepower for the points, and therefore it's quire reasonable that they are rather fragile for the points. Sure, Annihilation Barges are better all around, but they are limited by the HS slots and competition from Spyders and maybe Doom Scythes.

AV 13 spam is a solid build, but it's pretty blind to believe that it's the only worthwhile Necron build.
1 reply · active 695 weeks ago
I don't believe it's been advocated that it's the only build, I've seen mention of several alternative builds, merely that MSU is doable and a tactically viable option for Necrons. It has a certain advantage of being a balanced list that can be adapted tactically to suit many tournament scoring styles and handling a variety of opposing forces.
A nice article.

Out of interest, do you think MSU can work for Tyranids?
5 replies · active 695 weeks ago
Tyranids lack the key quality of MSU, a small squad that can be threatening to a variety of targets. Necrons have the (troop choice + Cryptek) combo along with the Night Scythe; Tyranids have no equivalent. They can field tons of models and units, but Termagants don't scare tanks.
Amarous Armadildo's avatar

Amarous Armadildo · 695 weeks ago

Warriors work fine as an MSU unit for Tyranids. Same can be said for a pair of Carnifex. You can also run a couple five man brood of genestealers outflanking to jump on objectivesc
You could make an argument for warriors but I think fexes kind of goes against the point of MSU unless they became a troops option when I wasn't looking...

Note to GW: Make carnifexes troops!
There's a huge difference between running some small units (which can be effective in many lists) and MSU as a strategy (which Tyranids cannot accomplish.)
The obsession with 1+1 builds only works if BOTH the unit and the transports bring something effective to the table and threaten the opponent at the same time.

In a "typical" 1+1 Marine army build (Razorspam), the unit has a special/heavy weapon and the "transport" also has a heavy weapon on it. They are both a threat, albeight usually to different things. And they are both things that the enemy has to deal with, likely right away. They are both realistic threats at all times.

In the example Necron MSU armies that is not precisely true. Not only are you paying more for the same thing (paying for RP + Cryptek special rules), but your transport vehicle's weapons are not significantly different than your unit's. To get into range, your Night Scythes have to move up closer to the enemy, which even with Night Fight makes them much more vulnerable - but even worse splits your army into multiple pieces allowing your opponent to deal with each seperately. Eliminating your Scythes before your infantry even gets into range to be effective. Ghost Arks are even more anti-Infantry (and iffy anti-Tank) but they're shooting exactly what their riders are shooting. And at the same ranges.

Yes, buying minimal squads is a way to get maximum number of vehicles on the table (the basis for 1+1) but that is only good if the vehicles are more effective at the game goals than the same points spent on the squad/other things. Since Scythes don't protect the squad "inside" they're useless as bunkers so you are only buying them for manouverable 24" range 4x Str 7 AP- TL shooting. Is that worth the points? When most competative armies can drop multiple AV11 vehicles each turn? Especially when those vehicles have to get *closer* to the enemy in order to work properly? Neither a 4+ cover save nor Night Fight is invincible. Especially when more and more people are spending that 1 point (if they even need to) on Spotlights.

And min-sized squads in Ghost Arks don't take advantage of the extra points your spending on it either. 100 points? That's expensive for what you get. Yes, it is a bunker which can be shot out of - a plus compared to most transports. Its weapons are meh, but better than a Rhino at least. Overall - they're better for movement/Los blocking/mobile cover and AV values than the Scythes, but can only be bought for Warrior squads which limits things moreso. Overall I like them better for the 1+1 concept - but they still don't do the +1 very much, they're more defensive points spent than offensive points. Depending on your army build - that could be good. But if you spend that many points on defensive things... where is your offence?

As with most things, it will boil down to tactics and your opponent. But attempting to transfer Marine tactics onto non-Marine armies (however similar the statline might be) does not work. Necrons do not have a Razorback, nor a Rhino. They have something worse and something better. Both the Scythe and the Ark have good points, but need to be used in completely different ways than you would the same type items in a Marine list. And I don't think the typical 1+1 style layout is it.
26 replies · active 694 weeks ago
>The obsession with 1+1 builds only works if BOTH the unit and the transports bring something effective to the table and threaten the opponent at the same time.

I dunno, I think a squad with two Lances in it is pretty threatening, as is a TL Destructor.

>but your transport vehicle's weapons are not significantly different than your unit's

Wait, what? How are Lances not different from Tesla? Those weapons are practically opposite profiles.

>Is that worth the points? When most competative armies can drop multiple AV11 vehicles each turn?

Keep in mind the saturation effect and the effects of Solar Pulse- you're looking to negate their shooting T1, leaving most of your army intact, and then T2 use your MSU to shut down as much of their army as possible, and with ~8 TL Tesla Destructors that is going to be a LOT of units. The fact that they cannot reciprocate your strategy- since you are immune to suppression- is what makes the whole thing work.

>But attempting to transfer Marine tactics onto non-Marine armies (however similar the statline might be) does not work

MSU is not a Marine tactic, it's a game tactic. Dark Eldar and other armies can make it work as well if they have the appropriate tools/build.
So you move up, what 12" on the first turn? That'll put you in range if they're on their line, so you get a couple shots off. Then pop night fight. If the opponent also moves up 6-12" you are then way within a normal night fight roll. Or you move up 6", pop NF. He could move one thing with a Spotlight 12" and light you up with the rest of my army. Or just move 6" and then you're 12" apart. An easy NF roll. Or zip forwards 12" with their Fast vehicles and be right beside you.

NF protects against long range fire, true. Not short range stuff (meltas). Or spotlights. Or Drop pod armies. It isn't a magic wand that will say "FU" to every army. Especially when most people know that Necrons play lots with NF so taking a few things to counter-act that will help.

Lances are like heavy weapons in Tactical Squads. You don't base your strategy around them. If they pop stuff - great. But counting on them as your anti-armor isn't great. You simply will not have enough shooting from them to counter a MSU spam list. Not only will they miss when you most need them to hit, but also Str 8 vs AV 11 (or worse 13) is only good if you've got lots of Str 8 to send down range. These lists have 10 shots at 5 targets per turn.

And turn 2 - some of your TL Destructors can only move 6" forward (so 18" from their start points, if they're alive) so have effective threat radius of most of the board. But what if your opponent has moved to avoid it? Your 6 Fast TL Destructors could move 12" and fire - but then they can target 6 things (and probably spark off them to others). But if they don't shut down the entire enemy army - they're likely toast because they're close enough that an extra turn of NF won't help them survive. And the rest of your infantry army might be in range (if the opponent is dumb or clumsy) unless they've gone through/around cover. So could add some fire to the amount - but Str 5 AP- can not pop tanks, and if your Str 7 does - they won't explode (AP - again) so I can hide behind the wrecks out of LOS.

Dark Eldar's transports are also superior in the shooting department. 12 Poison shots = insane. And the troops they carry usually have superior anti-armor weaponry.

NF on Turn 1 can shut down a Alpha Strike army's first turn, true. But it isn't going to work after the first time the opponent faces it. Then his goal becomes stay at the back for turn 1, forcing you to move forward and make more and more seperation in your forces. Then once they're seperated in order to get your Turn 2 shooting, he can push forward a little and pick off as many Scythes as possible (or at least hopefully stun them), while staying out of the rest of your army's range. Then once NF isn't an issue he can drop back again to keep the distance open.

But if you're not playing an Alpha Strike list, like say a Tyranid or Ork horde, then they will be able to simply absorb the mass of short range shooting and walk into you. Night fight has a minimal effect on them.

These lists are good against certain type of army. But they've got holes which alot of armys can exploit.
How far you move up is going to be a matter of what army you're facing and what kinds of threats/guns they present. Against GK, for example, you only get to 36" against them because that largely limits their firepower and they don't have innate Searchlights. Against IG you'll want to roll up a bit closer, the better to use your other guns next turn, etc. There isn't one "correct range" to close to, but in general you'll want to be over 24" away on the first turn.

It should be noted that almost nothing in the game can move 12" and use a Searchlight- basically Hellhound-chassis and any tanks that BA paid extra for (not terribly likely, in my experience.)

The MSU build works to minimize the value of Searchlights by making each target less dangerous- shooting down, say, five guys + two Crypteks is less worthwhile than shooting down a unit of 15 Warriors and a Phaeron, and since the enemy will largely be limited by the NUMBER of targets they can shoot- not the total damage output they can produce- the MSU build is actually more resilient than most others on that initial turn.

Drop Pod armies... basically aren't even a consideration. They simply can't bring sufficient immediate firepower for the Necrons to care. Bring down five or six Pods first turn in 2K? Enjoy getting shot by the full firepower of the ~12 units you didn't kill or damage, including assaults by Overlords and more.

>Dark Eldar's transports are also superior in the shooting department.

I don't think you're running the numbers correctly in that department. Against tanks, the Night Scythe is obviously infinitely superior, since Venoms can't hurt tanks. Against infantry, the Venom averages four wounds before saves, whereas the Scythe averages 4.5 wounds- obviously not as efficient as the dirt-cheap Venom, but on a hull-for-hull basis it's actually more effective. I'm also not sure how you are giving the DE the superiority in armament from the contents, as five S5 + two S8 shots is better than the one S8 shot that DE Warriors can output.

>Then his goal becomes stay at the back for turn 1, forcing you to move forward and make more and more seperation in your forces

It's really not possible to stay far enough back to get out of range of the Night Scythes when the Necron player is going first- you may avoid shooting from some of them (and likely will, since they will have a large footprint), but the Lances are all but guaranteed to be in range of you (15" + 36"), and many of the Scythes will be as well. That's the assumption- "only" ten S8 and three-ish Tesla shots in the first turn to suppress the enemy- so it should be suppressing six or seven tanks first turn, and ignoring the possibility of more lasting damage results (which will happen, but can't be relied upon.) Subtract six tanks from the firepower of most lists and what kind of damage are they doing? Not all that much, in most cases. The "drive in close and shoot at the Necrons" scenario suddenly looks much less frightening, since _maybe_ half their army is going to have that option- and if they do, the Necrons can back up 6-12" on their own turn and focus fire on that half, probably crippling or killing it. (Remember, they're going to be in range for the full treatment of Tesla, Lances, Gauss, and Swipes this turn.)

>But if you're not playing an Alpha Strike list, like say a Tyranid or Ork horde, then they will be able to simply absorb the mass of short range shooting and walk into you.

Tyranids can actually be somewhat problematic for Necron armies- Tesla shooting is rather ineffective against monstrous creatures, although it can shred their smaller bugs fairly badly. However, the inability of the Tyranids to effectively maneuver and their limited anti-tank (plus its inability to deal with AV13 effectively) leaves them in, at best, a fairly even matchup and more commonly a losing one. Orks, on the other hand, are not really a danger. Night Fight + multiple targets makes Lootas largely worthless and Battlewagons and Trucks will both fall easily to Necrons concentrated shooting. Orks will get some assaults, but that's the advantage of MSU- losing one or two units to charges isn't really that problematic.

Necron MSU is not specialized against alpha strike lists- it's most effective against them, but only by accident; it uses its ability to cripple the opponent's capacity to respond in the early turns as its primary tactic, which is effective against any shooting army (and it uses maneuverability to outfight melee armies.)
You're over-estimating the effectiveness of your shooting, and the effect it will have on your opponent's army.

Mathhammer wise, 4x TL Str 7 vs AV 11 will get 4 hits, likely glance once and pen once. Assuming no Cover, glance will result in either a 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3 on the table. Pen will be 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. So most often the tank will not be able to shoot. Or you'll take its gun off anyways, on the off chance you'll make it not shoot (unless it has extra armor) or wreck it. The contents will be perfectly safe. The Telsa flying off of it at Str 5 will only Glance tanks on 6s, so *might* shake a neighbour if you are extremely lucky.

So each of your flyers have shaken one Razorback/Rhino. Those vehicle could still drive forwards to Tankshock, or backwards into cover, or forward to disgorge their contents within Melta range (not happy fun range, but...) Or just drive up that far and sit, waiting for next turn when you *could* do the same again... but they still be able to move and get their contents closer to your army to CC on Turn 3.

As for Spotlighting - they're 1 point. Seriously - what list *doesn't* have a few points left over at the end for little things like that. Now that Necrons are becoming somewhat popular, and Night Fight is primarily their "thing" - Spotlights will become more standard equipment on lots of list. Thats if you aren't playing Vanilla Marines which get them included.

As for the Drop Pods - you're again assuming a stupid opponent (common thread?). Why put your pods beside the things they can't hurt? Or only possibly hurt? Drop them next to either the troops and torrent them down (easy with those small squads), or if you're carrying a Dread, beside one of the CCBs and Melta it. Or beside one of your Heavy Support barges and Melta that. Not only do you block their LOS (if done properly) so they have to move and not get a Str 10 blast off, but you're right next to them for next turn too. And that Dread might even have a Spotlight on it too.

And 5 Str 5 AP-, 2 Str 8 AP2 shots from each of those little squads aren't really a threat against a full Marine Squad. You'll kill 3, maybe 4. And then what are you going to do? Assault them? A 10 man Drop Pod squad will take at least 2-4 of your units shooting at them to eliminate, and that's also doing nothing against their Pod. Having played against Pod armies with Necrons - they are no picnic.

Venoms wouldn't shoot the tanks. That's the Blasters inside them. The Venoms then torrent down your exposed Infantry on the field.

And that 6 Razorbacks/Rhinos you are subtracting. If your facing IG, AV 12 reduces the Tesla effectiveness more (of course, you can get AV 10 side shots but if they're properly parked they get Cover - so reduced effectiveness there). And then there is their Heavy tanks and/or Hydras and/or whatever else they've got in their backfield. Against full mech, 6 is probably 1/3rd to 2/5s of their tanks, true. But you are only going to have 6 of yours within normal NF ranges, which means you aren't really saturating their target selection. You're presenting them with the obvious choice of what to shoot. No target saturation there...

And Multi-Assaults by (any surviving) large hordes will cut your Troops to ribbons. Also, what manouverability?? Your infantry isn't on board anything. They're walking. And most of your shooting - as you describe it - is focused on stopping your enemy from shooting... not stopping them from moving. They can still drive forwards. They might not be able to shoot much, but that doesn't stop them from getting dangerously close to your squishy bits.

Your conclusions are based on generous assumptions about your list design and capabilities, and presumptive that your enemy will do exactly what you want them to do. Which combines to create dangerous flaws. Can the list work as advertised? Yes. It can. Will it? Probably. Can it do it consistantly? No. It is a Scissors list, which can cut Paper, but will be smashed by Rock.
This was worse than the previous one. Make it stop, please.
At least abusepuppy is discussing the points we disagree on - you're just trying to be antagonistic. Why bother?
Because it's fun?

AP is doing a good job humoring you, I don't have the patience.
>Mathhammer wise, 4x TL Str 7 vs AV 11 will get 4 hits,

Uh... first of all you don't know how Tesla works, so I'm kinda gonna have to declare the rest of your assumptions suspect. But yes, most of the time one Tesla firing at a tank will Shake it. That's the assumption I've been going with here- each Scythe will get one damage result on the enemy tank and Shake, Stun, or Weapon Destroyed it (which one is largely irrelevant for our purposes.)

>Those vehicle could still drive forwards to Tankshock, or backwards into cover, or forward to disgorge their contents within Melta range

I don't know how you think you're going to Tank Shock with my Night Scythes 24" away from you- are these Dark Eldar with unusual upgrade we're talking about? Because Aethersail Shock Prow Raiders are the only vehicles in the game that can do that, and Tesla does a bit more than just Shake those guys on average. If they back up, that's excellent for me- I'm driving them away from objectives and deeper into the range where Night Fight makes it almost impossible to actually shoot at me. If they dash forward to Melta me... well, sure, disembark your dudes to get 1-2 Melta shots on me. You'd better hope you kill me whole army this turn because if you don't I am going to wipe those guys off the table. (I have ten tanks and six infantry squads in my army, remember.)

>Spotlights will become more standard equipment on lots of list.

They will become more popular, yes, but I've explained more than once how MSU Necrons deal with Searchlights via being MSU, which minimizes their value, and it will be exceedingly rare for armies to afford the full 5-10 Searchlights for their whole team- those ONLY benefit you during one particular kind of matchup with one particular army. Many generals will see more value in taking an upgrade that will see use every game.

>And 5 Str 5 AP-, 2 Str 8 AP2 shots from each of those little squads aren't really a threat against a full Marine Squad. You'll kill 3, maybe 4. And then what are you going to do?

Shoot them again next turn as I back up? I'm sure those Marines will have tons of fun assaulting my Spyders, Scarabs, or Night Scythes while I shoot them. If they didn't splurge for a PFist, my Overlords are also gonna be diving in there because a bunch of S4 attacks really don't scare that guy.

>If your facing IG, AV 12 reduces the Tesla effectiveness more (of course, you can get AV 10 side shots but if they're properly parked they get Cover - so reduced effectiveness there).

I'm pretty fine with shooting AV10, even if it gets cover. Most proper mech lists will be generating cover for their models anyways with formations, so that's not really a huge change. Hydras? Annoying, but not deadly to Necrons any more than they are to Space Marines- yeah, that Hydra battery will probably shoot down one Scythe per turn, but I can afford that- I'll be carving his vehicles up in the meanwhile. Russes? I just don't care. None of the LR guns are at all scary to MSU Necrons. Let the damn thing fire all game long, it'll kill maybe two squads at best.

>Your conclusions are based on generous assumptions about your list design and capabilities,

All of your "counters" to the list are based on the Necrons playing spectacularly poorly and/or a fundamental misunderstanding of the rules of the army, the probabilities of the game, or the tactics of the list.

Does it have weaknesses? Of course it does, every list does. But they are not unusually strong or crippling, nor are they to any common builds.

>And Multi-Assaults by (any surviving) large hordes will cut your Troops to ribbons

Why am I letting them multicharge me? Am I stupid? What happened to the ten skimmer hulls I can put in between my troops and them?
Shaking means you can still drive. So you move fowards 12", maybe get out, maybe not - depending on the situation. Then unless you're already backing up against your table edge, the next turn's 12" move pushes you further back if you want to stay away. And if you're dancing 24" away from me on turn 2, you're up against your own board edge already (or even further away down the table). Leaving most of the table in my army's possession. You then have even further to walk during the next 3 turns of non-Night Fight into whatever firepower I have left (true, you'll have blasted some of it - but the reverse is also true).

And no, you can't Tank Shock vehicles - snort - you Tank Shock the 7 guys you've dropped out of your Night Scythes. Or if you haven't yet, they're not shooting at me at all. Or if they're at your board edge/closer to me I can sit back outside their range. But if you aren't pushing for midfield, then I can get there and simply wait (if I want). That is, if Midfield is important to me - and in your army design it isn't for this army.

And yes, walking into the face of Tesla *isn't* horrible. As I pointed out, you'd have to get 2-4 of your units to exclusively target one infantry unit in order to kill it. And that's 2-4 units that aren't shooting anything else - if I have 10 units walking into the face of your army (tanks and/or infantry) you can't effect enough of them to stop me from getting to you. And that's precisely what you are designing your list to avoid. So its a major hole in your stated list design.

And I don't care about your flying based skimmers - if they're like the Vendetta or Stormraven I can move directly beneath/past them. They don't really impede friendly or enemy movements. As for counter-assault units - your MSU list had all of 3 Scarab bases for that purpose. That's it. That's not a counter-charge strategy, that's a last few points add on.

You don't have infinite distance to keep backing up. Even if you back down the board lengthwise, I'm still pushing you away from Objectives for which you do not have the speed/manouverability to get back to, late in the game.

And you're contradicting yourself (with the Hydras and IG). How are you "carving up" his vehicles when you aren't trying to kill them, just stun them? That doesn't make sense with your earlier strategy comments. And Leman Russes - lets see. Most of their guns are deadly to the rank and file Warrior (AP4 Heavy Bolters), Immortals get their 3+, true. But Str 5 can affect your flyers, which are in their face. Even Multi-lasers are dangerous to them. Plus they usually have strong anti-Tank weapons. And hey, look! EVERY IG tank comes standard with a Spotlight. Which, of course, still works when they're immobilized or weapon destroyed. Better hope you stun *everything* or else they'll have spotlights a plenty to shoot at you with. Plus the Vendettas which have swooped into short sight range so don't really need Spotlights. Str 9 vs AV 11 sucks.

-To be continued
>Shaking means you can still drive.

Yes, I realize this. Odds are at least some of the results will come up Stunned or Wrecked, since even AP- can kill (albeit unreliably) and I also happen to be hitting him with a bunch of Lances and Warscythes. Some of his tanks will be able to drive towards me, but not all of them. Even the ones that do will either be leaving their infantry exposed or be out of charge range for next turn still- meaning T3 is the _best_ they can possibly do for a charge.

>you Tank Shock the 7 guys you've dropped out of your Night Scythes.

Again: why are those guys not behind the Night Scythe? Because I can do that, you know. The 36" range on the Lances makes it the default option, since it prevents any charge shenanigans from faster units and fits with my preferred movement plan for next turn.

>And that's 2-4 units that aren't shooting anything else - if I have 10 units walking into the face of your army

If you bring ten units of ten Marines to the table, I will be fucking amazed at where you got the points for all that. If you bring ten units of five Marines, I can shoot at you one for one and just absorb the charges from the weakened guys.

>if they're like the Vendetta or Stormraven I can move directly beneath/past them. They

wut

No, that's not how that works, see. That enormous flying base? That will block the shit out of your movement- that thing is like a 7" long wall, and I've got five of them. You can't just walk over the base because you want to, it's still a unit's base like anything else and you have to stay 1" away from it.

>You don't have infinite distance to keep backing up

Since we haven't even gotten to T3 yet and I moved _forward_ on T1, I don't think that's really a problem.

>How are you "carving up" his vehicles when you aren't trying to kill them, just stun them?

Because you're focusing entirely on my Tesla shots and forgetting I also have ten Lances and two Warscythes in the list. Tesla stunlocks tanks, the remaining shots do the damage.
Continued...

And Spotlights are free for Vanilla Marines, and Imperial Guard. They're 1 point per vehicle for Wolves, Angels, and Templars. Dark Eldar and Eldar don't have 'em - but you're not designing to combat them. If those armies can't scrape out 5-10 points in their list in order to counter a whole build type then they deserve their fate.

And no, I'm assuming competant play on both sides, including you backing up to keep shooting. I'm just pointing out that your "strategy" will not win games. Either you'll split your army up to zoom your skimmers to within 24" while your Lances are within 36" while you stun the opponent's vehicles (optimal) - which means your opponent's remaining guns really have only one target during the NF turns - the 6 flyers. And if the infantry dismounts behind the vehicles you can't get within 24" to Tesla them from your infantry in one turn... or you turn your flyer's Tesla against the infantry and leave their vehicles free to act (because your 10 Str 8 shots at 5 targets isn't going to supress their tanks). Or you attempt to keep the entire army at 24", and I simply push forwards faster than you can retreat because you're walking and I'm driving. Assuming, as you are too, that I'm in a fully meched up army. You might/will probably win a KP game but either way - you aren't moving forwards to claim Objectives, or table quarters beyond your starting 2.

And yes, you're assuming you are facing a Marine MSU build. Of course. Because nobody plays anything else, like Necrons with AV13 walls. Or Grey Knights (who laugh at your stun/shake tactics). Or Imperial Guard with more shooting than you can stun and Spotlights for free. Or Tyranids. Or Dark Eldar. Or Orks. And yes, they charge right under the flying bases of your 6 flyers. If they're still alive and in front of your army, not attempting to stay 24" away from me. Can't have it both ways, really. The board is only so big.

Basically - you're basing your list on a gimmick which *will* usually work against a specific list - not attempting to deny that. But sometimes it won't work perfectly. And you need it to. And if you run up against anything different than your the opponent you designed against will be in serious trouble. And that's why it isn't a good idea/list - not that you can't do what you say you can do, you can. Its that you will need to do something different in some games, and this list can't adapt to that. There are options in the codex which *can*, but you've ignored that in favor of mindless Spam. (And it is very mindless and uncreative) And that's the major flaw here.
"Basically - you're basing your list on a gimmick "
My problem with your "rebuttal" is that AP is saying that MSU works for Necrons, and the lists I've made show it to be pretty solid. THEN, he gave a list (in another post) that was, IMO, rather weak by completely ignoring any counter-charge elements in order to squeeze a last drop or two of firepower.

But, frankly, you can make solid Necron lists with MSU shooting, Scythes, double courts, and still have points left over for Wraiths, or a reasonable amount of Scarabs and 2-3 Spyders. And an IG army generally doesn't want to push forward towards Scarabs/Wraiths to expose themselves to CC when they're moving 6", and if they do a 12" rush, the Scythes move sideways and get side shots. And of course the Tesla weapons will rip apart Chimeras when they get side shots.

Now, it's not an unstoppable Necron build, but it's solid, and looking at one relatively vulnerable version of it and arguing that MSU does not work leaves me unconvinced.
>which means your opponent's remaining guns really have only one target during the NF turns

Yes. Which are still at 24" and thus difficult to target. Not impossible- it is likely that some of them will go down from enemy shooting, but by the same token it is likely that I will kill some of their vehicles with my shooting as well- we've just been ignoring that possibility.

>and I simply push forwards faster than you can retreat because you're walking and I'm driving

That's correct insomuch as you'll be gaining 6" on me each turn. However, if you're doing that, your list is outputting ZERO firepower, and one or two turns of smoke isn't going to stave off all of the shooting from my entire list. (Remember, you're getting T3 charges under ideal circumstances.) If I really want to, I can pick up my toys and jet away 12" or 24" and still get shots off- or, if I think I can do enough damage, I can just open up on you with the bulk of my army and hope to kill your mans. Once I've disembarked your infantry, the game is effectively over for you- your charges on my Night Scythes will be wholly ineffective and you MUST break through them before you can get to my infantry. (Technically my Barges will also be in assault range, but I'm not really worried about them, either, since they are even less important to my strategy.)

>Because nobody plays anything else, like Necrons with AV13 walls.

Yeah, it's too bad I didn't explicitly mention in the post where I had this list that it is vulnerable to other Necrons running AV13 wall. It can theoretically deal with them (thanks to Warscythes and hoping for lucky glances, mostly) but it's a tough match. I never said it was without weaknesses.

>Grey Knights
Yes, GK are unshakable. GK also have to disembark their super-fragile infantry in order to have any significant firepower, and it turns out that Necrons love shooting at disembarked infantry.

>DE
Oh noes, how will I ever kill AV10 open-topped transports? Oh yes, that's right, with massed S7 firepower. Every vehicle in my army is effectively a Hydra; Dark Eldar don't like that.

>Tyranids
Kill Hive Guard. Tyranids can no longer affect my army. Done. Tesla Arcing on their massed infantry is also something they really, really don't like.

>Orks
I'm sorry, how are Battlewagons and Lootas going to hurt me? I'll be getting easy side shots with most all of my guns (bar Anni Barges) and Lootas won't be able to do a damn thing on T1 or T2 due to Solar Pulse (or they can deploy aggressively and I Tesla them out of the game immediately due to shitty morale.) Horde armies don't scare Necrons- Necrons are a poster child for high-volume shooting.
Actually - I only need to back you up for 2 turns - then without NF I can back myself up and return to long range firing at which any other army (except Tyranids) outranges you. And I could, if I wanted to, leave my long range stuff at the back (Preds, Long Fangs, Riflemen, Hydras, etc), and push forward my short range stuff (Rhinos, Razorbacks, Deep Strikers, etc) - which wants to move forwards anyways. Either you dance around dealing with the forward elements and ignore the rear - or you bypass the short and move past it to deal with my rear. Both strategies have problems - if you bypass the front, they're in range even with NF to shoot you. If you ignore the rear - they can shoot you easily enough once NF is gone.

We're arguing in circles though. You believe that you have the skill in which to control the battlefield and where your opponent will go with what in order to maximize your shooting. And really, I can't say that you don't having never played you or even see you play.

But what I've repeatedly pointed out is there are quite a few flaws in your basic army premise, which can be easily exploited. You've brushed them aside with aplomb. But that doesn't mean they disappear - they're still there. Maybe you've got the skill to succeed regardless of those flaws - but that doesn't mean everybody does.

By introducing some alternative elements in your strict MSU spam list to handle these flaws, it would make it quite a bit stronger. And that is why I'm adamant that MSU Necrons are not the way to go. Yes, you can have some small squads with transports in a "standard" 1+1 type structure - but you can not make them your entire army and hope to win all the time.

And that is why MSU Necrons is a bad idea.
>Actually - I only need to back you up for 2 turns - then without NF I can back myself up and return to long range firing at which any other army (except Tyranids) outranges you

Wait, what? Are you pushing forward to assault me or backing up to keep out of my range? Because you can't do both at once. Even if you make a turnabout, my Lances are still 36" and my vehicles are still Fast, so it's pretty unlikely you'd be able to escape my army (and you'd have to give up your own shooting to even try.)

>You believe that you have the skill in which to control the battlefield and where your opponent will go with what in order to maximize your shooting.

I'm really just saying that I can keep within 24" of your army relatively easily, which you seem to think is impossible without getting assaulted.

>but you can not make them your entire army and hope to win all the time.

*shrug* People said the same thing about SW, BA, GK, and DE, and yet those "unworkable" MSU armies now dominate the top tables at tournaments.
Some of them. Yet I still more lists of varied contents - mainly non-MSU - at the top of those tournaments. Even Tony's lists were not MSU, they had full squads not minimal sized ones.
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2012/01/06/tournam...

There's a good selection of lists there. There are some MSU-type lists there, true. But the majority are not. They have some MSU elements to them, but they have other elements to support and expand upon the concept instead of leaning primarily upon it.
I would look more to NOVA and similar tournaments if I were looking for what the top armies are- events where the missions are consistent and balanced, a good scoring system is used, and the players tend to be of above-average skill levels. That's not to discount all other events, but I think that NOVA-styled ones are the best in a majority of ways.

It's also not to say that non-MSU lists can't work, but MSU does what 5E rewards best, and as a result they are often at the top of things. MSU can be hybridized into other concepts, as you note; time will tell if this works well for Necrons or whether a "pure" strategy is better.

However, this would seem to be arguing into my original point: MSU can work for Necrons. Is it the best strategy? I think so, but I don't know for sure- certainly it's worked better than any other list I've seen so far, and has done so for other good generals as well. But it is, without a doubt, a _viable_ strategy.
The idea that 5th ed rewards MSU is somewhat based upon a flawed notion that NOVA is a balanced mission system. It is most definately not. Actually it is the reverse - NOVA events take away the parts of 5th ed that penalize MSU so it favors those types of lists.

With there *always* being multiple Objectives on the table every game and no threat of ever getting a Kill Point mission - combined with VPs in general being slanted towards multiple cheap units (less VPs to gain if they die so less danger in sacrificing them) rather than expensive ones, as well as Table Quarters requiring army-wide mobility - NOVA missions generaly reward MSU play (especially mech-MSU).

Really - Kill Point missions are one of the few design features in 5th that penalizes MSU play. Otherwise, you are right - 5th ed would support MSUs. But if a MSU force hits a KP mission they are at a severe disadvantage.

But that never happens in a NOVA style tournament. It is another reason why I think NOVA fails at being a balanced system. It rewards a specific kind of army build and army type (MSU with resilient and multi-capable troops choices) so its no wonder that Space Wolves and Grey Knights do well at it. Now a system, like if I remember the Bay Open, which uses all three 5th ed mission goals in tandem would truely be a balanced mission system.

I'm not knocking NOVA the tournament. I'm just pointing out that their "missions" are not balanced. They are most definately slanted towards a certain type of army and build. I'm not sure if its a chicken/egg kind of thing - where the missions grew out of what was popular army-wise in this edition, or that what was the popular army list styles grew out of what missions people enjoyed (which was VP and not KP).

Moreso the second I believe, in the end. VPs were preferred by lots of people, so using them instead of KPs makes sense to them. Unfortunately, VPs do not penalize MSU enough to balance the game. There should be reasons to take MSU and reasons against taking MSU - if you are playing NOVA events, there is no reason not to MSU and lots of reasons to do it.
>no threat of ever getting a Kill Point mission

Um.... NOVA uses KPs. Its three missions are table quarters, objectives (a la Seize Ground) and KP. It trades the mission that is universally recognized as being the worst for something that is more playable, if not perfect.
*blink*

Well, then. I've been misreading things. From my readings, I thought it was Objectives, Table Quarters (decided by VPs) and C&C. Obviously I missed something there.

My mistake.
Nah, it's all good. I'd have to give Mike a big frowny face if he dropped KP from the list, because yeah- it's a huge balancer against MSU armies. It's something they can and do work around, but having twice as many KP to give up can be a real disadvantage at times.
What the fuck did I just read?
A counter argument.
It's a pretty shitty one. Lots of assumptions and just not knowing the rules.

Short list:
-Tesla is 24", not 12". Scythes are Fast too, so 36" effective range.
-DE vehicles are no comparison, considering they want to hide inside them and poison has 0 ability to effect armor
-Cryptek lances can be taken in doubles and Immortals have assault weapons, so the Tactical comparison is bad
-Assuming you'll always get in melta range against a highly mobile army with lots of bubblewrap and blocking units
-Assuming that searchlights = auto-pass night fight tests

It's just bad. I could go on, but AP is handling it well enough on his own.
That's funny.

- So what if they're Fast - your infantry (which is dismounted on the board in order to shoot the Lances) isn't.
- And it is that dismounted Infantry which the DE would be shooting at. Oh, and in order to guarantee their shots would see the target, they'd be close to it. Which would also put the troops inside their Open-Topped Fast Transports close enough to your Scythes to shoot them with Blasters.
- ???
- What bubble wrap?? You've got Troops of 7 guys. They can't bubble wrap. And if you're bubble wrapping with vehicles... why? Flying skimmers don't block LOS to infantry, nor will they push things back far enough away to keep it out of Melta range.
- No, I'm assuming the vehicles pushing forwards will make a NF test or two. Or the Drop Pod Dread. Or the Necron opponent which uses his Solar Pulse to turn off Night Fight. Instead of assuming that NF is an invulnerable cloak which can not be penetrated.

Yes, AP is defending his position with counter-arguments and facts not semi-glib banter. Thats why I enjoy having these discussions with him. You... not really. But you can have fun in your own way, I suppose.
Specifically, it's a list-writing tactic, and what people are pointing out is that while you can write a list with MSU 'crons, actually playing it the same way you play Marine MSU is asking for a beating.

Marine MSU lists tend to keep mounted up as long as possible. The idea is that the unit of Marines inside would be relatively vulnerable if it was on foot, but it's viable because it's in the transport; you can't damage it inside the transport, a wreck doesn't damage the Marines at all, and destroying the transport does an explosion unlikely to hurt them significantly AND drops them in a conveniently-made instant crater for cover. The firepower of the transported Marines is strictly a secondary consideration.

For 'crons, because of no fire points and the return-to-reserves rule (not to mention good luck getting cover on skimmers!), using Night Scythes as mobile bunkers is a much less attractive option. You'll generally want to dismount the infantry within and use the two units separately... but if you do that, a lot of the MSU logic goes out the window, because now you can shoot the troops. On top of that, the Necrons do have that special rule that gives them a significant advantage in resilience IF you don't shoot the whole unit off the board in one phase, for which having extra bodies to start with is a big bonus.

All that said, it's not a crazy idea, but at the same time it's a very different army on the tabletop. And one thing is important to remember - even at min size infantry, dual-lance and night scythe makes these units pricey. You can't spam six of them and then have tons of points left over for your other slots unless you're running a large game. And Necrons DO have lots of attractive options outside of the troops slot!
"As with most things, it will boil down to tactics and your opponent. But attempting to transfer Marine tactics onto non-Marine armies (however similar the statline might be) does not work. Necrons do not have a Razorback, nor a Rhino. They have something worse and something better. Both the Scythe and the Ark have good points, but need to be used in completely different ways than you would the same type items in a Marine list. And I don't think the typical 1+1 style layout is it. "

This^

I couldn't have said it better myself.
I had to laugh when I read this... here you go trying to use your MSU concepts on Necrons. I hate to break your heart but its not going to work.
8 replies · active 695 weeks ago
Yeah, I agree, trying to apply MSU style play to Necrons is a recipe for failure as it ignores the primary strength of the codex which is durability.
Next will be an article how to MSU dem Orkses ! LOL
Go check out Stelek's version of that. I'm sure he would welcome your presence.
Durability can be achieved in many different ways- note that the Crypteks themselves do not lose much of their survivability in an MSU strategy (since they can stand back up no matter what.) By bringing a large number of moderately-tough targets that can't be suppressed, it is very possible to make the army "tough" by virtue of a lopsided engagement- you're effectively trading one-for-one with the enemy (i.e. "I can keep suppressing this transport every turn of the game, even if I don't kill it") and coming out ahead because you still have 3-5 units active after negating his entire army in such a fashion.
Considering your only argument so far has been "you suck and it won't work," for some reason I'm not inclined to believe you.
Am I hallucinating or did AA make another account just so someone would agree with him?
Nah, Adam has a fairly different writing style and actually argues his opinions in a semi-coherent way. AdamAnt is still just as derpy as every.
Ok, I thought I was going to have to eat my own head their for a second...
Amarous Armadildo's avatar

Amarous Armadildo · 695 weeks ago

I see lots of people using 5 man squads of Warriors and Immortals for holding objectives (hold them in reserve) but other than that I don't see much value. The scarab farm has the horde like action going on and is too good to pass up... They make up a lot for Necron shooting versus mech.
Puppy, chumby, you guys still owe me a list with no crypteks in it that doesn't suck.
2 replies · active 695 weeks ago
Imotekh, Stalkers, Scythes, Scarabs, Wraiths, Spyders, Doom Scythes

All it really needs is a Chrono
Imotehk, Footlord, Stalkers, Immortals, Wraiths, Doom Scythes: GG
*Load the Immortal squads with ResOrb lords.
i actaully thoroughly enjoyed the arguements between abusepuppy and reecus, it gave an insight onto what my opponent will be trying to do to me when he sees my list.

argue more often it is enjoyable

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