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Thursday, August 23, 2012

Battle Report: Grey Knights + Deathwing vs Space Marines



So today got a game in with Vince so decided to take some pictures. Acotez + Deathwing against Lysander Marines. We rolled a random mission and got Relic with Vanguard deployment. Night Fight in effect Turn 1, Warlord trait useless for Vince, Move Through Cover within 12" of my Warlord. Lists are below.

Space Marines:

Lysander
10x Shootynators w/2x CML
2x Rifledreads
2x10x Tacticals w/meltagun, MM, combi-melta, Rhino w/Dozer
5x Scouts w/heavy bolter, snipers, cloaks
2x1x Speeder w/2x MM
2x Dakka Preds

Grey Knights & Deathwing:

Coteaz
2x8x Psykers, 1x Aco, Chimera w/searchlight
5x Acolytes w/bolters, Psyback w/searchlight, Dozerblade
3x6x Acolytes w/bolters, Psyback w/searchlight, Dozerblade
3x Psyfledreads
Belial
2x5x Deathwing Termies w/CML, 1 Apoth

Deployment

Relic mission is really just a cute name for 40k dog-pile which is anything but not cinematic! Vince won roll-off and elected to go first for the opportunity to get First Blood in case neither of us controls the Relic (quite likely). He then deploys his double Tacticals directly across from the Relic with the Terminators nearby to support them. The goal here is to dump said Tacticals in midfield and have one squad scoot away with the Relic - Terminators provide a screen. The Preds & Dreads were off to the sides to limit my ability to hide behind the central terrain piece.

My deployment plan is likewise similar though I'm looking to ferry in my Deathwing units and due to my weaker Troops elsewhere. I use my RBack hulls to protect the Deathwing models and the Chimeras - trying to show as much AV12 as possible despite the far flung Preds & Dreads. My Psykers can really ruin the day of the Tacticals + Terminators so I want to keep them safe. My Dreads bookend my army so they can move into midfield, pressure side armor of Preds & shoot around central terrain piece. I fail to seize and thus lose the opportunity to Relic sit.





Space Marine Turn 1

Vince's first turn is all about getting his Tacticals into position and protecting those Rhinos - so both Rhinos move up behind the central piece of terrain. One combat squad with an MM jumps out however to try a snap shot at a Razorback which fails (the Rhino then flat outs in the movement phase to protect said squad). One Speeder follows the Rhinos to try its luck with double MMs whilst the 2nd speeder jumps behind the building on the left to protect itself. The Terminators move up keeping themselves in the gap between the central terrain piece and building on the left to shoot at the Grey Knights. Both Preds & Dreads spread out to get better firing lanes.

Shooting sees the right most Razorback lose a hull point and the left most Dread (who also loses an arm). The left most Razorback is wrecked after Night Fight cover saves failed to stop the damage. The Acolytes inside are pinned and Space Marines get First Blood.

1-0 to SM




Grey Knight Turn 1

Night Fight stopped a lot of shooting there which was nice but it will likely stop a lot of my shooting back. I'm very aware of the anti-infantry firepower the Space Marines have and want to ensure my Terminators can get to the middle of the board and still be strong enough to smack his Terminators & Lysander around. With this in mind I move two of my Razorbacks up on the far left to cover shooting from that entire side and move the Deathwing up behind them. The hull point damaged Razorback on the right moves up as well with the Deathwing walking behind it. The Dreads spread out and both Chimeras reverse a little bit to clear shooting angles.

Everything opens up with my Razorbacks opting to snap-fire due to twin-linked. I manage to take down the right most Rhino to one hull point and shake it and drop the midfield Speeder. Both my psychic blasts failed to go off unfortunately. I also shot my Terminators when I really should have run them and then determined what to do with my Razorbacks (i.e. flat-out to protect them?).

1-0 to SM





Space Marine Turn 2

The push to the Relic continues with the Tacticals & Rhinos moving up onto the central piece of terrain - the Rhinos in a V position to allow Tacticals to still shoot out. The right Rhino is now empty with the melta/combi squad jumping out whilst the left Rhino has the MM/mgun still inside and the Sarge + four plebs outside on the Relic (Relic held by Sarge). The Terminators move up but not too far to make sure the Deathwing isn't going to smack them next turn.

Remaining Speeder zips in to a position where it can melta many a target whilst the fire support elements wiggle for best shooting. All the melta then opens up on the leading Razorbacks but it takes them all to drop just one. But that's enough for shooting to now converage on the left-most Deathwing squad with Belial & the Apoth. Mass shooting ends up killing three whilst the Tac MM on foot drops the right most RBack containing Coteaz & co - half the Acolytes inside die.

I feel the Terminators should have been moved up more. Yes, Belial & co might have gotten to them but it means they weren't munching on Tacticals. And if they munched on Tacticals, the Terminators were at full liberty to mess around with my entire army. Push the threats to the fore - keep the Troops safe.

4-0 to SM.




Grey Knight Turn 2

The Tacticals on the Relic need to die - or they are going to move off with it and there's not much I can do about that. This means dropping the right most Rhino and pouring as much firepower as I can into those measly guys. My two large blasts should be useful here... Both Deathwing squads move up and Coteaz being silly tries to join them. Except he's not allowed. Woops! The remaining RBack moves in front of the enemy Terminators to minimise their return charge/shooting potential. The Acolytes jump out before this and setup in the crater of another RBack to provide more bolter firepower. The Dreads start to move forward from their firing positions and the back most Chimera immobilises itself.

To begin shooting we start with the Psyker blasts. Both go off but one misses towards my guys but only nicks the RBack who passes his cover save. The other blast is on target and drops four Marines + the damaged Rhino. This allows the rest of my shooting to come to play from that side of the board. But first, the undamaged Psyfledread drops the other Rhino on the PC-CDROM hill which forces the Tacticals out in front of my lines. Extra shooting sees one Tactical completely destroyed, the other reduced to two men and four men but the Space Marine vehicles are untouched.

The damaged Psyfledread therefore throws himself at it in combat and drops it whilst the Deathwing kill three of the newly disembarked Marines who escape (we forgot Stubborn!) leaving Vince with eight Tacticals left in total.

1-0 to SM.




Space Marine Turn 3

The fleeing Tacticals rally and move back towards the damaged Dreadnought with a meltagun left. The other Tacticals all move up onto the hill to layer against the one guy who picks up the Relic and passes it to Lysander as he joins the squad and moves into Base to Base contact with him. The Terminators again edged forward but didn't really press up leaving the Tacticals at the forefront of the fight.

Shooting does very little, dropping the Razorback in front of the Terminators and one Deathwing from the right most squad. Coteaz luckily gets away with being all alone. The rallied Tacticals fail to drop the Dread with their meltagun so decide to assault and get hit by two Overwatched autocannons! Luckily the Cinematics held and they passed both their saves only to fail to damage the Dreadnought, lose a guy to a chest bump and then flee. The Dreadnought consolidates behind the building on the left.

4-0 to SM.




Grey Knight Turn 3

Tacticals are exposed - must kill. Both Deathwing squads move up to the central terrain piece, Belial's squad on top to get at the Relic & Lysander, the other squad down below to get the Tactical squad not on the hill. Dreadnoughts continue moving forward and now would have been a good time to bring in all my Psykers + Acolytes as well to try and flood the Relic with bodies. I didn't however as I was still very much aware of the Terminator squad. Too cagey.

Shooting sees all but the fleeing Tactical and the Tacticals not on the hill removed and I get some lucky damage rolls against Lysander to drop him to two wounds. One Terminator also dies from a scattering Psyker blast (only one went off - this was the last one to go off all game). Both Deathwing squads assault with the Tacticals on the ground being wiped out (leaving the one fleeing meltagunner) - they consolidate away from the Terminators. The other squad reaches Lysander and Vince forgets to challenge (we had talked about challenges moments before so I thought he was aware of them). Lysander kills the extra two Deathwing Terminators but all combined they drop Lysander's final two wounds. Belial consolidates onto Relic (we rolled the challenge to see what would have happened and Belial lived, Lysander lost a wound and then failed his Leadership...so similar result thankfully).

1-1 draw (claimed Warlord secondary).





Space Marine Turn 4

Terminators move up to exact revenger on Lysander and the meltagunner Tactical hides as best he can. The Dreads and Preds position for best shooting and throw everything at Coteaz who manages to save all of his instant death wounds but takes two normal wounds from Heavy Bolters and is thus left with one wound. The Terminators drop Belial handily but lose two guys to do so.

1-1 Draw.




Grey Knight Turn 4

Coteaz moves back down and joins an Acolyte squad for ablative wounds. The remaining Deathwing squad moves around to engage the Terminators whilst trying to avoid needing to go through terrain. Dreadnoughts keep moving up looking to help the Terminators out. Acolytes re-position for better shooting and once again, I don't get Psykers out so they are just sitting pretty in the back.

Shooting sees several (aka 3) Terminators dropped as all my firepower goes into them with an assault follow-up by Deathwing and a Dreadnought. The Dreadnought takes a hull point of damage and one Deathwing dies (plus one from Overwatch, doh!) but two Terminators die (leaving three remaining) for a drawn combat. I pile-in one of my Terminators so the lone meltagunner cannot move to claim it.

1-1 Draw.





Space Marine Turn 5

Little the Space Marines can do at this point other than try to kill Grey Knight Warlord (Coteaz). Scouts have been doing the same as Psykers and just sitting in the back all game long so aren't really in a position to do anything to swing the game unfortunately. Dreads + Preds again position to drop Coteaz who loses all his Acolyte buddies (after they go to ground) but still manages to shrug off all the firepower directed at him. Insane.

In combat one Terminator from both sides falls over so combat continues on its merry way.

1-1 Draw.




Grey Knight Turn 5

I attempt to move my mobile Chimera to a position where it can flat out in front of Coteaz but it immobilises itself, leaving Coteaz out in the open to get trashed unfortunately. Dread on the right moves behind Space Marine Dread on the right for some rear shot action whilst the Acolytes there move up onto the hill in case they can take the Relic or move into the Space Marine DZ. The other Acolytes shuffle sideways to shoot through the gaps at the lone meltagunner Marine and the Psykers finally jump out of their rides and start moving though far too late.

Shooting sees the lone meltagunner die from the bolters and the right most Dreadnought. Combat continues where we both fluff and smile happily at each other.

1-1 Draw.





Space Marine Turn 6

Game goes on for a Turn 6. Fire support units against position to shoot down Coteaz as well as the Acolytes on the hill which could capture the Relic. The Acolytes die in a hail of fire but Coteaz just stands there and laughs, passing all his saves (insane man). Combat sees one Terminator die but doesn't flee. Scouts cannot take the final hull point off the damaged Dreadnought's rear.

1-1 Draw.



Grey Knight Turn 6

Coteaz hides on the right of the central terrain piece where he cannot be seen. Psykers continue moving but too slowly whilst Dread on the right moves into side arc of the Pred to shoot and assault follow-up if necessary. The damaged Dreadnought moves up to assault the Scouts and the rest of the Acolytes move forward as fast as possible to the centre of the board for the Relic/enemy DZ.

Shooting sees the right Pred dead and nothing else - most things are running forward at this point. The damaged Dread assaults the Scouts and kills one but they stay and do no damage in return. Pillow-fisted combat in the centre also does no damage and the game ends on a 1-1 Draw.




Conclusion

An interesting game and what we will commonly see with the Relic - secondaries decide the game as everyone just ends up dog-piled on the damn Relic. Still not sure about the Acolyte based list for 6th - once again the extra Troops were doing the hefty lifting though the Acolytes got a lot of bolter firepower thrown in this game, any time they were looked at funny they died. And the Psykers passing a whole three tests the entire game made them a useless paperweight. In terms of mission design extra secondaries, objectives, etc. would have made this more interesting. To the actual game :P.

The Dreads and Scouts for Vince never moved in - I'll take blame for that as we were trying to make this a learning game to bring Vince up to speed but by leaving them in the backfield they never contributed in the melee around the Relic. An extra unit or two could have swung favor in any direction. Same with my Psykers though each time I tried to advance, I immobilised the Chimeras, the Psykers still should have gotten out and started moving forward. In the end I had few Troops near the Relic and this is part of the list design I feel. I was too afraid of their fragility to commit them.

Both of us played a bit too cagely as well - I think Vince should have been more aggressive with the Terminators and moved them around the Tacticals to stop my from assaulting them and allowing them to move backwards with the Relic. Yes they'd have died facing all that shooting and Deathwing in combat but it would have allowed the army to hold onto the Relic and kept me pinned down for a while. I think Vince was afraid of what the Deathwing + Psykers could do and I was relying on the Psykers to do more - but as we saw they are unreliable (though I must say, this is the worst I've seen them in 6th so far. Newbs).

Also interesting to note despite the Internet crying foul on vehicle durability...there were four Dreadnoughts, a Predator and two Chimeras left at the end of the game. Despite some 12 autocannons (+ psybolts), 11 heavy bolters (+ psybolts), 8 missiles, two S10 AP1 blasts, two multi-lasers and a lot of PFists + Kraks in combat. It's really the same as before - the mobile stuff dies because it's generally high on the opponent's priority and does so much but the fire support stuff unless it gets in the way generally doesn't. Again, killing vehicles is just more reliable - no more "damnit I got three pens but got three shakens!"

Anyway, GG Vincey and still need to work out what to do with my GK... And Vince needs Allies :P.

Comments (37)

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thats some nice yellow.

oh wait, "baaaaw allies etc"

relic still seems like a very silly mission to me
Vinsanity's avatar

Vinsanity · 663 weeks ago

GG Willy :D

Silly mission indeed. Lysander wasn't as crutch as Coteaz at making saves :P Had you rolled another one with him after so many damn shots I would've had it 2-1. Lysander will get him :D Not sure what to do about your GK list either, maybe 2x5 GKSS but I'm not sure where you find the points :(
Kirby your grey knights need stronger troops - I think the acolyte list has taken a punch as in 6th your troops choices need to be more than MSU upgrades to transports, they need to be able to function without the precious transports and actually take some fire through either weight of numbers or good armour saves. It's for that reason I reckon that Strike Squads have got comparatively better vs Crowe purifiers and acolytes - they provide a lot of tough scoring bodies, something GK lacks (acolytes aren't tough, Purifiers haven't got the numbers).

Also those Psykers are poor, they're just way too unreliable to be worth the points, one high roll and I kill 80 points of my own army? That one acolyte man doesn't really help either - in 5th they were the vehicle upgrade that meant scoring vehicle, in 6th they have to step outside and Mr single acolyte dies hard

Kirby maybe try running some tasty Space Wolf allies with your Grey Knights - filling the board with 20 grey hunters (of course with the ridiculous 10 point double plasma) and 20 strike marines seems really appealing!
5 replies · active 663 weeks ago
Yes & no - what I need is more stronger Troops. The Acolytes can work but I'd need more than just two squads of Deathwing I'm finding. Being able to plop down four squads of Acolytes still works - they force your opponent to split fire and they still add damage as long as they are supported. But yes, at 2000 points I've been running GKSS instead.

Without hoods & changes to blasts the psykers are arguably better. Yes they fail psychic tests 20% of the time and kill themselves 5% of the time. I'll take those odds for a backfield scoring which throws out a large blast with AP1. It's also pretty easy to hide one guy particularly if you get to place objectives.

Haven't tried with SWolves yet.
I agree - the problem I find with playing a list with Deathwing and Acolytes is that the split in armour saves is really large, as a result your opponent can optimize their fire really well. The argument for 3+ guys along with nators is that there simply aren't that many high RoF AP3 guns in the game, in fact the only one that springs to mind is the trusty battle cannon, which makes the opponent make the decision "do I shoot my AT at the nators who get 3++, or do I shoot at the power armoured marines, who there are twice as many of?"

I hadn't ever considered the psykers like that, I always thought of them as "1 perils and they all fall down, that's poor". My one question would be why the full 8 of them? I appreciate the S10 AP1 gives them some AT potential, but it's still only 1/3 chance to pen, then 1/2 on top of that for explodes. Why not run them as 5's or 6's, you still get that delicious AP2-1 and S7-8, but you're only losing 50 points if they do die.

If you drop the bolter acolytes, it's almost a straight points swap for 2 squads of 10 grey hunters with plasma. Dropping those 8 man psyker units to 5 or 6 men should almost give enough points for a Wolf Guard battle Leader, then you have all those delicious extra points from not having the Belial HQ tax to get yourself some GK nators. Solve your AV14 problems with some wolf guard combi-meltas in a drop pod.

There are also options for rhinos for the grey hunters, upgrading the battle leader to a rune priest (the 4+ turning off the GK powers too is the reason he isn't the auto choice he usually is, although YMMV). For extra turn 1 hilariousness, give the wolf guard some terminator armour (even with terminator armour, a combi weapon and a power sword, they still only come in at 38 points...)
Acolytes aren't really part of your saturation- in theory, the combination is Deathwing and transports, both of which require high-quality firepower to damage. The Acolytes are basically meat once they're disembarked.

S10 is good against more than just Land Raiders- it's quite possible to smash other targets with them as well. Having a way to ID Nobz, TWC, etc, around is nice and the extra bodies mean that even following a casualty or three you still have an actual threat in the unit. Saving 20-30pts is decent if you're cutting towards a specific goal, but getting that AP1 blast is really nice if you can manage it.

The chance of dying to Perils is annoying/hilarious, but really it will generally only come up about once in a given day, so that's not particularly crippling. Much more problematic is Ld8 for passing those tests, but no one said they were reliable- they are very much a high upside/high downside kind of unit.

SW can be a decent mix with GK, but the Rune Priest is kinda annoying there. I wouldn't take a WGBL because that guy... just doesn't do anything- either take the Priest for superior psychic defense (at the cost of your own psychics) or don't bother.
I wouldn't 100% agree with "both transports and Deathwing require high quality firepower to take down", high ROF S7+ is enough to kill the transports, whereas terminators really do require AP2 and below. While there is significant overlap in these, they aren't exactly the same (AP2 and below is generally a lot more expensive and harder to get).

I feel you are correct on all the other points though, I think I may have to try out some lists with psykers in. The WGBL comment is very true - I forgot the golden rule of allies: "make sure everything does something." I think you could definitely build a list around incorporating Space Wolves, but only play-testing would be able to tell you if you could successfully keep the strike squads over 24 inches away from Mr Rune Priest, stopping him blocking all the tasty prescience and hammerhand.

Part of me says that it would be a pain to deal with, but the other half of me reckons that it still might be worth it, as you could probably play it so that the turn or two that you really need them to come off - they do.
It's true, those S7/8 shots can kill the transports but not the Terminators, but there is still quite a lot of overlap between them. I don't feel it's enough to make me want Deathwing as allies for GK, but the plan isn't fundamentally bad.

Psyker henchmen are very easy to underestimate- they _are_ a suicide unit, and they're incredibly unreliable, but when they work, the firepower they put out for that 84pt cost is pretty incredible. I wouldn't run them as an accompaniment to an Inquisitor, but in a Coteaz list they can be a lot more useful.

Hammerhand is not something you're really as worried about- it's basically all for Prescience. And, if you're doing the SW ally, I think a standard Inquisitor (so as to not have to spend the points on Coteaz) and more GKSS in place of the Acolytes is a better plan. Stelek's NOVA list is very solid in that respect and brings a large number of threats against diverse targets; it's a good mold to follow on.
Doppelganger's avatar

Doppelganger · 663 weeks ago

Hi didn't grey knights win because of the 'LINE BREAKER' secondary obj? A blue dread looks like its in opponents deployment o last pic?
2 replies · active 663 weeks ago
Dreads are vehicles, and hence neither Scoring nor Denial units.
John is correct.
Dealing hull points in combat doesn't count as a "wound" for combat resolution. A dreadnought that takes 2 hull points and kills 1 model, wins combat by 1.

So that "drawn combat" should have been your win. Though they're stubborn, and LD 9 so they probably weren't going anywhere.
2 replies · active 663 weeks ago
p,76, "Assault Results"

At the end of a round of close combat against a vehicle, calculate the assault result as normal, counting each glancing hit as 1 Wound and each Penetrating hit as 2 Wounds.
Thanks. Apparently I'm retarded. I could have sworn I read the contrary.
Vehicles aren't scoring or denial units (required to get Line Breaker) except in the FA/HS missions if they are FA/HS.

Heh, I'd almost say refight that one, it sounds like way too many dice flukes. IMO, Relic is a "secondaries" mission, both for scoring and for tactics. First, prevent a grab & run on the relic if you can (sometimes you can't), second, kill all the supporting stuff closing in while protecting yours. The idea is to have the most left at the end of the game because maneuver doesn't matter here, mass on target (boots on the objective) matter.
At first I hated Relic - seemed another sacrifice on the altar of Narrative Forging. Now I wonder if it's just that the designers wanted each mission to promote drastically different tactics; differentiating each game from the last for re-playability.

Even so the Feast of Blades (and others) format of multiple mission parameters seems more 'serious' and, for me, more fun.
3 replies · active 663 weeks ago
I like it because it is a nice change from a lot of the standard missions. I play against a lot of gun line armies. It has forced my opponents to rethink their lists a bit to be more mobile, which makes the games more interesting. Secondary objectives also help spice things up too.
clever handle's avatar

clever handle · 663 weeks ago

king of the hill missions have existed in multiplayer games for a long time. They're a fun meatgrinder type. I personally love the relic mission - definitely my favourite of the 6.
It's a crap mission :P, go with your gut. I like it in that it forces you into midfield but the mechanic is crap because whoever goes first, assuming they have enough Troops, can deny the opponent from ever getting it unless they tank shock the unit and force it to flee (thus being able to move into base contact with the Relic during movement).

It's a much better concept when there are better secondaries around such as other objectives which also spreads the Troops out in being able to get to the Relic.
TheMachineGod's avatar

TheMachineGod · 663 weeks ago

How the hell did those two rhinos drive up onto something taller than their own hight? That just seems bizarre to me.
5 replies · active 663 weeks ago
Not a fan of the dred on wreck either, but either to their own
Hammerdal's avatar

Hammerdal · 663 weeks ago

Quiet you, it's Cinematic
Jet-boosters.

It's cinematic.
Were those stacked dvds? If they were, then it really *was* cinematic.
Yup, top one was Rage Against the Machine live in New Mexico :)
Your GK needs troops that can actually hold their weight. You needed your deathwing to kill the enemy marines, hold off against the enemy terminators and grab the relic. Its too much.
By the way, how are those Deathwing set up? 5 hammers + cyclone?
Only problem with dropping t fex for dakka fex, is when you are playing heavy av13 lists, where sometimes the relative short range of the hive guard, plus limited chances to pen come in. Obviously the dakkafex is useless against av13 until combat.
2 replies · active 663 weeks ago
ignore this my browser is being annoying
no man its being CINEMATIC
A vindicator or two on either side of this battle would have cleaned house. Nothing clears an objective like 2x str 10 large blasts. Not much on the board for dealing with AV13 aside from the speeders with MMs. I suppose you could ping them to death with Str 7/8. Most of the vehicles on the board were AV12 or less.

I'm going to assume that the scouts were meant for possible backfield objectives in other scenarios. An infiltrated squad on flank with missile launcher might have been good for light armor side shots or for fragging light troops later

Even plasma cannons might have been fun too instead of MM on the tacticals... can't snap fire though, which is problematic for this mission type since you need someone to go to the objective and pick it up or secure it.

Not a lot of cover in the middle, but I usually play on heavier terrain boards with ruined cityscape with quite a few buildings and good alleyways for quick movement/fields of fire.
5 replies · active 663 weeks ago
There were 2 S10 blasts.

Vindicators for SM are still pretty eh - slow is their main issue. We were trying to work in some Allies for Vince's list with BA so he could have Vindie or IG for more shooting but with the CML Termies + Lysander, not much to work with. And they still have side AV11 and can't sit back in corners like Preds which means S8 into sides hurts.

Blame Vince for barren board =D. Needs moar terrain! Not cinematic enough.
He was probably trying to forge a narrative
Vinsanity's avatar

Vinsanity · 663 weeks ago

Moar 'DVD hills' will make it literally more cinematic :P
You need to roll well before you claim there were S10 blasts
LD 8 is not super reliable for passing a psychic test to get those blasts. Not to mention that chimeras, while slightly more durable from the front than rhinos from the front, still only have AV10 sides. At least it's not open-topped to make it even less durable from the sides.

Personally, instead of taking scouts with the Lysander army, I think you're better off allying with guard for cheap scoring units since you can get more/better special/heavy weapons and more wounds you can take to keep backfield objectives. I'm not sure I'll ever use my scouts again if I can fit an allied contingent of guard in instead.
How about running DA as the host army with henchman as allies? That way you can fit in more Deathwing squads for the durability and hitting power you seem to be struggling to find. On the other hand if the next DA dex allows DW to be taken in 10 man squads and combat squadded even better, you can fit them in as allies still that way.

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