Kirb your enthusiasm!

WEBSITE HOSTED AT: www.3plusplus.net

"Pink isn't a color. It's a lifestyle." - Chumbalaya
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit
"I buy models with my excess money" - Valkyrie whilst a waitress leans over him


Saturday, October 23, 2010

Dark eldar: episode XXII - return of the meta


Judging from all the discussion, the emails, and the general state of most forums, it's clear to us all that dark eldar are in your meta, pillaging your game.

Officially, you shouldn't have access to the codex until the 5th of november, but if you're not blessed with a GW nearby for perusal, you've simply downloaded scans or summaries of the book.

So yes, dark eldar.
The name of the game is flexibility and options, but the internet isn't seeing this - yet. Once the little warseers and dakkaits start posting lists that differ greatly from each other, yet are still just as powerful, they'll know, but that's all in the future.

For now, we have the lovely cries of 'cheese and b0rkenz lancespam,' 'omgwtf combat armies,' 'cheap skimmers omg,' 'poisoned weapons rape my marines and tyranids metametameta,' and the general whine over feel no pain.
Knee-jerk reactions by scrubs? Yes. Partially caused by forumitis? You got that right.

No, dark eldar won't destroy any metas or games, unless you're still stuck in 3rd or 4th edition.
Foot armies (orks, demons, grey knights, tactical spam, footdar, tau gunlines, necrons, etc.) are almost unplayable versus dark eldar.
Proper 5th edition armies have nothing out of the ordinary to fear, since they all stack up well against each other.

Yeah, dark eldar gets melta, all three kinds of templates, combat units, effective troops, mobility, flexible and powerful load-outs, transports, psyker defense (offense, really, but the end result's the same), and even some durability, but that's what a 5th edition book looks like.
Basically, old, bad, horrendous armies and builds are gonna go extinct, while everything that works within the 5th edition environment's not likely to notice much difference.
The one and only change is the serious and very real risk of taking small heavy weapon units (long fangs, red devastators, hive guard, etc.), because dark eldar will put 12, 24, or even 36 shots at them the first turn with their venoms.

Here's a very brief list of what's really changing for the different armies...

Black templars: unaffected.
Darklight doesn't work all that well against quad 'raiders immune to lance. Otherwise unaffacted. Proper templars aren't exactly good, but still largely competitive. Verdict: wants a new book, but can wait. Almost as unaffected as vanilla marines.

Chaos marines: endangered since 2008. Tri 'raider and 'classic' build now extinct.
Were good for all of three months. Dark eldar didn't change chaos' chances much, really, except for killing the tiny 'MSU' lash spam list, and tri 'raider. Verdict: wants a new codex, but since there are no players left, they can wait.

Demons: extinct.
Slow foot versus silly fast MSU mech equals almost guaranteed losses. Crippled by lack of own shooting. Verdict: needs a new codex not written by a fantasy player.

Orks: foot horde extinct. Hybrid endangered.
When you can put down 90+ poisoned shots from cruise speed vehicles alone, the orks weep. Add to this the long range, high mobility, and outright better combat units, and the boyz in green aren't looking so good. Lootas are gonna be removed first turn, always. Verdict: needs a new codex. Likely to whine for once.

Eldar: endangered.
Mono builds of awfulness. If you tell a craftworlder that dark eldar do everything eldar does, only better, he or she's likely to agree with you. Dark eldar just brings more of everything, leaving eldar outgunned, outnumbered, and outmatched. What used to separate them (melta) is no more. Verdict: really needs a codex that's not a copy-paste from 3rd edition. Players will whine and defect to the dark side, so they can wait a bit.

Necrons: completely extinct.
Dark eldar's speed, dakka, everpresent darklight, and powerful combat units rendered destroyer wing impotent and useless. Verdict: second most in need of a new codex.

Grey knights: completely extinct.
Dark eldar did what tyranids couldn't: destroy the quad raider list. MSU terminator squads die fast to venoms, and potentially losing squads of terminators to the crucible isn't appealing in the least. Dark eldar were the final nail in the coffin. Verdict: the faction most desperately in need of a new codex.

Tyranids: warseer lists extinct. Otherwise unaffected.
Classic 'two monsters, three-thousand critters' now unplayable. Too much dakka, way too early in the game. Hive guard really hates venoms. Verdict: hive guard are range 18, and risk quick deaths to dakka. Little else's changed. Expect serious amounts of whining, and an even bigger refusal to change for 5th edition.

Sisters of battle: unaffected.
Still brings all the tools needed to beat face in 5th edition. Main change is exploding raiders and ravagers will kill some sisters every now and then. Verdict: little's changed. Carry on.

Imperial guard: foot guard extinct. Hybrid and everything else unaffected.
Foot guard's suffered the same fate as gunline tau and horde orks. Heavy weapon squads will go poof instantly, like every other tiny unit, ever. Good no one's using them. Since so few player run foot guard, things haven't really changed. Verdict: as good as pre-5th november.

Wolves: in general unaffected. Long fangs are an endangered species.
Thunderwolves need to be played more aggressively, or risk poofing to instant-slaughter attacks. Long fangs really don't like sucking down 12x'however many venoms are in range'-shots the first turn. Verdict: likely to start using armor over long fangs, or putting the 'fangs in rhinos.

Vampires: nipples endangered. Otherwise unaffected.
Darklight killed the nipplestar. Devastators suffer at the hands of the venom, but less so than others, thanks to feel no pain from nearby priests. Verdict: Dante's golden boys are fairly impotent versus all the darklight. That's about it.

Vanilla marines: tactical spam extinct. Everything else unaffected.
Never used devastators to begin with. Gimmicky lists still work 'properly,' but foot marines are almost unplayable. Verdict: the least affected book.

Nerf angels: deathwing and doublewing endangered. Greenwing on foot extinct.
Tiny armies of land raiders, terminators, and overpriced bikes don't fare well against either darklight, 10+ combat units, or dakka. Verdict: just play them as regular marines already. Expect lots of whining.

Tau: proper lists unaffected. Gunlines extinct.
Lining up 60+ firewarriors and broadsides leads to turn 2 loss at best, or turn 1 loss at worst. The only concern for proper list is broadside-hammerhead balance, with more leaning towards hammerheads now. Verdict: gunline finally rendered unplayable. Expect lots of whining.

As you can see, 3rd and 4th edition are now over. If you want to keep playing gimped lists, feel free, but don't expect wins, challenge, or entertainment.
Don't be surprised if actual people outside the internet tell you to get a modern army, or they'll simply play someone else. You know, like what happened when 3rd edition officially became 4th, and everybody raped gunlines all over the place with combat armies.

The times, they are a-changing, but only for those stuck in the past.

Comments (59)

Loading... Logging you in...
  • Logged in as
Fun read, but keep in mind the scrubs running crappy 3rd/4th armies will also be running crappy 3rd/4th DE armies too, so things won't get that drastic until people actually start playing 5th.
8 replies · active 757 weeks ago
Dark eldar are strictly 5th edition.
I've tried, and the closest I can get them to 3rd is massive warrior blocks with lances, feel no pain, skimmers everywhere, and tons of cheap dakka. Oh, wait - that's almost good.

Check out warseer's list section. Not even the little warseers can make 4th edition-styled DE lists =P
Yes go now! lol

3rd/4th died with Tyranids yet as Chumby points out, people still fail so 3rd/4th still works.
I cannot find SoB lists and tactics.
Does my fu need recharging or have you been naughty and not done any?
I think I'm the only one on here who's even played them - let alone played against them =P
Vince has them so I play against em often enough :P.
I play against them like twice a week.
It's kinda scary =P
Oh and check witchunters label.
Comment snowmobile!

Tyranids: warseer lists extinct. Otherwise unaffected.
Classic 'two monsters, three-thousand critters' now unplayable. Too much dakka, way too early in the game. Hive guard really hates venoms. Verdict: hive guard are range 18, and risk quick deaths to dakka. Little else's changed. Expect serious amounts of whining, and an even bigger refusal to change for 5th edition.
- The other end of the spectrum is hosed pretty well, too. Without wound saturation, all that high-T seems less impressive with poison, as it really ends up with your opponent (as far as you're concerned) running MSU marines that are harder to cover but don't lose shots until they're dead.

Eldar: endangered.
-I promised I wouldn't cry.

Orks: foot horde extinct. Hybrid endangered.
-Aside from the fact that foot horde was already silly, what in the DE codex makes it even less viable? Against your normal joe ork, 4+ poison isn't worse than a bolter. Is it the volume of shots? I just don't see how 4+ to wound on 12 shots is better than, say, frag missiles.
2 replies · active less than 1 minute ago
"I move my army 12 inches back, and shoot you with 100 shots a turn."

"DAMN IT!"
fair enough but i think our combat can clean up where our shooting dosent
@Apathyman:
What really hurts Horde armies like Nids and Orks are the fighter and the bomber in the heavy section. Both have access to four S6 AP5 or Poision 2+ AP5 large blast templates that can all be fired in one turn all the while moving 12". I've been play testing both options and have found to be incredibly potent against Nids, Orks, and Guard blob platoons. The are incredibly cost effective for what they can do, the Fighter especially since you can take a Splinter cannon along with the 4 missiles and 2 Dark Lances.
2 replies · active 757 weeks ago
I love the Razorwing Fighter. This vehicle can single-handedly produce a loss for a mob-infantry army if you have three of them in your list. It is just difficult to find points to fit it in. :D
And the bomber solves most problems with 'hard' targets.
Wound test or go boom, you say? How lovely.
Aye, I was thinking about it the other day...how my Black Templars were going to beat my new DE lists. When I got to the heart of it, I found that provided I continued to use the tenets of 5th Edition play, I should still be able to manage against them. The gunline list will suffer a bit, as the Las/Flamer crusaders are on foot...but besides that, you have plenty of dakka to knock everything out of the sky reasonably quickly before they can bring all those splinter cannons to bear.

I do think that the BT Drop Pod army, while extremely good against every army up to this point, will have huge issues with certain DE builds. They simply have too much poison going around, with transports that are too fast to get shots in range.
1 reply · active 751 weeks ago
blessed hulls for black templars make it so our shooting is impotent against your raiders even heat laces probably our greatest at weapon (opinionated no trolling please) is ineffective without lucky rolls
I think its interesting you're saying that all infantry not in vehicles should now go extinct while darkwynn is hypothesizing that MSU Mech is going to go extinct.

Personally, I don't think DE change much of anything. They're a great dex with lots of good builds.
24 replies · active 756 weeks ago
I don't think that the DE can put out enough shots to truly put MSU Mech into extinction. Not if they want to be able to kill what is inside those vehicles. Because to have all those shots, you have to build entirely for AT, which reduces the amount of AI killing power to close to non-existent. Which, obviously, is a problem.

It is far easier and cost effective (points wise) to build a balanced, all-comers list fielding lots of AI firepower, while maintaining a reasonable amount of AT. That is why foot lists die nearly instantaneously.

Do I think that the DE are game-changing? Potentially. It really depends on how many people pick the codex up and play them competitively. If only a small percentage of those theorizing about the possibilities go ahead and build armies, I don't think most players will see much of a difference unless playing at the national level.
I really don't see how Venoms with dual splinter cannons are going to do much. 36 splinter cannon shots isn't really all that terrifying.

vs:

MEq: 4 dead
4+ cover save: 6 dead

1337!

Now, if we take the list Vt2 posted up in chat earlier that has 84 splinter cannon shots, then we're on to something.

That's 9 dead MEq or 14 dead 4+ cover save units.

And, if you can swoop in and be in splinter rifle range for a few of those warrior units, say 2, that's another 16 shots doing another 2-3 4+ save deaths, and 1-2 more MEq deaths.

Could be pretty nasty.
That is exactly my point. Venoms, in small numbers, only pose a marginal threat. Take them in numbers, with AT support from the troops inside...you have a force that can deal with AT and demolish an foot-based army easily.

VT2's list looked to be based off one of my early lists that I posted in chat about a week and a half ago. BroLo is one who can confirm its existence (because he received an email about it). Unfortunately, I went too far in the way of AI firepower and it left me with a reasonable amount of AT, but ultimately, insufficient amounts against highly-mech'd armies. It has 108 splinter cannon shots on turn one. That isn't counting the 12 Monoscythe Missiles, Shard Carbines, or the Splinter Rifles in the list. It would decimate foot-based armies.

Its incredibly easy to get lots of poison shots in the DE army, and therefore, extremely strong against infantry. But its not so easy to get AT shots without sacrificing most of your AI. But that is part of the fun of a new codex: Learning all of the fun combos and builds. ;)

Lots of fun indeed. :D
Venoms are very deadly, because they statistically put 4 wounds onto any target., no matter your toughness.
They're cheap, too, so you can take lots, and the carried squad will either add firepower to the venom's, or engage armor nearby.

Splinters from aboard raiders with racks are very punishing for light infantry, such as orks.
I think venoms are too fragile as dedicated gun platforms, but that's just supposition.
Almost everything the army has to offer is fragile.
Kinda like your boyz in green, if they had nightshieds, flickers, feel no pain potentially on all infantry, and etc.

'Dedicated gun platform' isn't something the army can even do, as all vehicles can move 12 and shoot at least some guns.
Venoms with cargo work like sternguard and a rhino, only the rhino gets 12 shots, all dudes carried can shoot, up to four will sport very dangerous weapons, and the squad's lots cheaper than sternguard+rhino - so not really like it at all, except for in execution.
Darkwynn is mostly fail, and last I checked, didn't even understand how 5th edition works.
Huh, that's interesting.

Oh yeah, I forgot, tournament wins mean nothing. Check.
OMG! LEAFBLOWER! SO IMBA! METAMETAMETAMETAMETA!
Like the orks, right?

Only you defeat it by using reserves, rather than moving away from it. You know? Reserves? That rule that's listed in the rulebook, and is key to playing the game effectively a lot of the time?

And now he's saying you shouldn't rely on 'getting the first turn' with Vect/Baron, because 'it will bone you in tournaments.' Yeah, okay.
I would agree that proper use of reserves with some armies would be a good solution to the Leafblower. Since we didn't see anyone really try it; how do we know he doesn't have a solution for that as well?

When someone wins the 'Ard Boyz finals, I listen to them. What have you accomplished that makes you an expert?
Written a much needed review of codex: space marines, and crusaded against comp?
Give people help and advice on a daily basis?
Am not the self-proclaimed leader of the ork defense force?
Never used a buzzword seriously?

You know, if soft boyz is so bad you can win by assuming your opponents don't understand the fundamental rules of the game, maybe it's time to stop flexing about it.
So you wrote a lot of stuff. Big deal. I do the same thing and that doesn't/shouldn't get me cred. I've been giving people list advice for years, online and off. Woopidy doo!

Also, I'm not the self-proclaimed leader. Tasty named it that and asked me to write for it.

'Ard boyz isn't the only thing that Darkwynn's won.

It takes minimal effort to sit back on the internet and deride tournament winners for playing against fools. Its another thing to put your money where your mouth is and prove it on the table. I take Stelek a lot more seriously for coming in 2nd in two big tournaments now, simply because he's shown he can hang.
I'm all for showing off myself, and since you called out for me to 'prove my manliness,' I assume the ork defense force's gonna ship me from Sweden to americaland, and keep me fed and sheltered until some of the so called 'hardcore' tourneys - that may or may not be won by be the same scrubs year after year - take place.

Or did I misunderstand your intentions?
There's no tournaments there that you could go to in Sweden and show off your skills there?
A whole lot - supposedly.
The thing is, your standing and victory are often very reliant on softscores.

So if I wanted to 'compete,' I'd need to comp, and get an actual pro-painted army.
Number two's the hard one, because it costs a lot of money.

And then there's the whole deal of heavily comped tourneys not showing off anyone's skills, since they're decided by softscores - rather than what you do on the table.
Axiomatic's avatar

Axiomatic · 757 weeks ago

Can you two just ignore each other, please.

You're YTTH-ing up all over my 3++.
I could be ignorant, but wasn't Sweden the defending ETC champ going into this year? Isn't ETC fully non-comp except for the SC ban? If Sweden had enough talent to pull together 6 of the best performing non-comp players, shouldn't there be enough non-comp community and competitive circuit to support the play style?
Search swedish comp on this blog, there's been a lot of posts about it.

And +2 billion to Axiomatic lol. I should give them their own thread to talk to each other...
I agree.
Sowwy :(
I signed up for Intense debate.
May I have my two billion points now, please? Lol.

I sent a email your way recently. Just curious if you got it?
Which one was it Axio?
I think It'll show up as from "Jeremiah", it's about BA: Giant Stompy Robots?
Yup it's in my inbox ^^
ETC is known as the special olympics of warhams for a very good reason.
Dunno, VT2. Pure Sang guard wasn't that hot outside of 2.5k to begin with, but your typical Sang Guard + ASM army still has the good FNP and enough bodies.
2 replies · active 757 weeks ago
Feel no pain isn't much good versus strength 8, AP2.
Most builds are gonna bring more shots of those than sang guard armies have models.
40+ DL at 1750? wow.
I don't quite understand how you get to the conclusions you do.

Have you done even rudimentary math on any of this?

Each Venom kills 1.33 Marines each turn of shooting or 2 of anything in cover.

I think that is hardly sky is falling numbers.

That is also 65 not very survivable points to do that. Granted if you are using the blasters of the trueborn you are looking at some different results but in that case you have to either get out of the venom or get within 18 inches. Both things which severely limit your survivability.

When you say stuff like
"Lootas are gonna be removed first turn, always"
its a really silly argument.

If I'm running 2x 12 Lootas which isn't that uncommon you are going to need 12 Venoms to kill my lootas. Not to mention if something that silly is happening the ork player will probably go to ground.

Anyways just saying.. do some math first.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
Venoms staistically put 4 wounds on anything the want within 36 inches.
So I put 3x4 wounds on your five lootas, and they die, then I do this with your other squad, and it dies, too, and it's repeated a third time against your third squad.

Done and done.
Now I use my spliter rifles and blasters to engage other targets.

If you go to ground, I'll stop shooting you after the first venom, since you can't do anything to me in your next turn, anyway.
Then your other infantry has to worry about the 4 wounds per venom.

See what I'm getting at?
I guess if orks are only running min loota squads that would work good.

I think with all the Razor Spam around these days as well as DE on the horizion that relying on that as your only anti tank is a recipe for failure.

I think Venom's are awesome. I don't think they are going to radically change the metagame as much as you do.

I'm really interested to see how everything straightens out.

I'm guessing its going to be something like 2x Trueborns with venoms and blasters, 2x wracks with venoms and the flamers.

Maybe another three raiders with the Wytches and Warriors.

For your example though... nine venoms with squads inside is probably ... 1300 points or so I'm guessing?
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
Depends on how they're geared. 1100-1300~ are good estimates. That's for just 9 venoms with gear, squads, and so on. If you take absolutely no gear, you can get 9 infantry units with a venom each for a grand total of 873 points.

You can take more lootas. In fact, you should take more. 3x10, at the the very least.
Unfortunately, the internet is all about making you take two units, so you can fit in Snikrot, or some other sillyness.

Either way, I can and will put four wounds on any vulnerable infantry with each venom.That's not really the question.
It comes down to whether or not the units hit will stay functional after the first shooting phase. If they're self-pinned, running, or otherwise reduced in size, they're not gonna be all that big a threat to stuff, so might as well be dead for real.
I really like those SoB.
Whose are they?
1 reply · active 757 weeks ago
Yeah, those are AMAZING. They put my poor Sisters to shame...
No idea.
They were the first result on google image search for 'badass battle sisters with rhino.'

If you check around some, you can probably find a blog, or at least an ancient photobucket with more pics.
FWIW, Hive Guard are 24" range, not 18" like you posted. With normal movement, they have a 30" threat range and don't require LoS. Since 5th ed is all about TLoS, and tables should include LoS blocking terrain pieces, there's a chance Hive Guard can be screened from being targetted.

I play Nids exclusively and was intitally pretty worried. I don't see people taking ID missiles at 30pts per one shot weapon and not many netlists with Husk Blades yet. Poison will be annoying, but only on venoms. Embarked units still can't fire if you move over 6", and even with that you'll have to be in 12" rapid fire or 18" carbine range which is what Tyranids like, being in assault range of most the army. What does hurt us, a lot like BA hurt us, is vehicles that can move 12" and still shoot denying us most of our CC vehicle popping.
2 replies · active 757 weeks ago
Yeah, DE will strike first which sucks just like fighting chaos daemons. Even still, agonizers will do 1-2 wounds and most of the rest will need 6's to wound big bugs. Poisoned CC might be annoying, but don't make analysis and theoryhammer decisions in a vacuum. 3+ & FnP on big bugs shrugs off most poison and your MC's cancel their FnP.

What I anticipate if there's any Nid adjustment to a new "meta game" is a few more lash whips and some more dakka fex's/rants. 12 twin linked str6 will bring down a transport or mow anything shy of wracks down and cancel FnP on t3 infantry. What I'm not looking forward to is running around after fast skimmers that play hard to get. Then again, that opens up the board to centralized area control and a whole new basket of theory hammer.
Pretty sure he was including Night Shields in the equation for HG range. Either way Tyranids and DE are at logger heads with each other. Tyranid MCs and high T targets hate the mass poison DE bring to the table but as stated, the majority of that poison isn't long-ranged and Tyranid shooting is very effective at suppression fire. Hive Guard hate night shields but with Onslaught they should still be able to get into range of what they want and paying for night shields on a bunch of venoms, raiders and fighters/bombers is expensive. In combat Tyranids still have weight of numbers and the good medium strength to ignore FNP (same with their shooting) and catalyst becomes all the more important in protecting MCs.
I look forward to the new challenges DE will bring to the table, but I think balanced competitive lists will adjust playstyle and adapt. Gimmicky armies will struggle against smart players as always. Footdar, green horde, etc. I consider gimmicky as they aren't balanced for 5th Ed/Mech battles. Whatever complaints people have about DE will be compounded with a new DH codex release where Stormravens and Valkyries are dedicated transports. The game is only getting faster from BA to DE to DH, and 2011 will put the nail in the foot list coffin.
I realize that the deamon book overall is terribad, but there are a couple competent lists in it. Namely the heavy calvary and bolt of change spam lists (I'm assuming most of you have seen them on YTTH?). They will both at least be able to compete with dark eldar with their own speed/torrent of high S CC attacks/mobile bolt of change shots. Endangered? Most likely. Extinct? Definetely not.
As a CSM player, I clearly remember seeing the initial reports about the new DE codex and wincing. I still think the infamous Chaos netlist is the best choice against these guys, but I also think it's running at the worst disadvantage yet. My CSM army isn't in retirement yet, but I also know better than to expect a win more than about 30% of the time, if that.
I'm a little confused. You say that good Tyranid lists are unaffected, yet you say Hive Guard are screwed against DE. Almost every good Tyranid list I've seen relies on Hive Guard rather heavily. How does that leave them unaffected?

Post a new comment

Comments by

Follow us on Facebook!

Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...