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Tuesday, November 2, 2010

The Pathology of Forumitis



"Forumitis" is something that's been tossed around here a bit, but I think it's worth talking about in the general sense. Not all forums are subject to forumitis, but most of the large, well-known ones tend to be. It doesn't happen because they're dumb, or because there's anything inherently wrong with forums (although, as we'll discuss, it is a natural consequence of their popularity), or any other conveniently self-justifying explanation. It's human nature in action, and no more.

First, though, what is forumitis? It's not easy to pin down, but I think my definition, at least, would be "errors in game play and conceptualization that are reinforced by the mass of people contributing." It's not that blogs, etc, don't make mistakes and don't get things wrong, but the nature of forums tends to make these problems self-reinforcing.

Second, why do we care? I, at least, care because I don't like bad information. When someone says "Fire Warriors are good," it bothers me because that isn't really true. And, as both Kirby and VT2 have pointed out, convincing people to buy mediocre units thinking they are good ones is not a way to encourage goodwill towards the hobby- it leads to frustrated players, who may quit the hobby because they see their army as being unsalvagable or the game as unbalanced.

So why does "forumitis" happen? I doubt many of you have studied the dynamics of social interaction extensively, but to sum things up, it's because they get too big. As the population of a forum grows, the ability of the members to monitor and correct each other's behavior deteriorates; whereas in a small forum everyone knows each other and poor courtesy doesn't last without severe social consequences (like getting on EVERYONE'S ignore list), as the size of a group (real or internet) grows it becomes more difficult to self-monitor. In real-world groups this normally results in splintering into subgroups; on the internet, it just as commonly results in a large, directionless mass of users with few clear social boundaries. At this stage the moderators are likely to become strained and simple enact strict rules regarding what can and cannot be said, drastically limiting the ability of the users to engage in effective discourse. With no strong method to argue and reach conclusions in a meaningful way, opinions will generally settle into their respective position, and you're left with a morass of mediocre ideas punctuated by extreme outliers that may or may not have any bearing on reality. Those of you who have read about the "Eternal September" will recognize the same progression there, and in the evolution of many other social contexts.

Does this sound familiar to anyone? Plenty of 40K forums have gone down this route, not to name any names. Personally, I cannot name a single forum that I think is host to good and relevant discussion about gameplay and tactics. (Painting/modeling, on the other hand, are a different matter, since they are largely a matter of putting forward examples for others to study. Even resoundingly mediocre forums can be host to good hobbyists, and hence worth studying.) Of course, this isn't to say that they don't exist- but, by the very nature of the system any good forums would generally be small enough to escape the radar of most people, myself included.

Why are blogs any different? Different modes of interaction. Blogs are not democratic- they are inherently biased, focused on the owner(s) of the blog; while followers and others may comment, their contributions are subsidary, not the focus of the thing. Those with good and popular ideas will generally flourish; unpopular, poorly-written, and poorly-conceived posts will drive people away. In this way someone with strong ideas is able to shape a community to a degree, and while popularity is certainly no measure of correctness, I do like to think that people are more likely to follow a good idea than a bad one, human fallacy aside. Blogs exist as interconnected networks, not as a single, massive entity, which shapes how users join and participate very differently. While they may be prone to problems of their own (demagoguery, interpersonal drama, etc), these are very different issues with their own kinds of solutions.

It's not that I have anything against forums; I think they potentially have many uses and can bring some very useful modes of communication. If they have a good community, they are a much easier way for people to reach out for assistance, rather than Kirb or I having to sort through dozens of similar emails. However, they too often fall into the traps that bring them down to a level that is no longer particularly useful, the worst of which being the "everyone's ideas are equally right, no matter what" paradigm.

If any of the readers would care to suggest a counter-example to the above, a good forum with a large population, I would be happy to be wrong. Unfortunately, most of the forums I have visited have ended up being fairly useless to good discussion- and make no mistake, I have seen quite a few of them. Advanced Tau Tactica, Warseer, 40KOnline, Bolter & Chainsword, Dakka Dakka, HeresyOnline, etc. I mean no insult to the people there- indeed, there are at least a couple people at each of those forums that I respect, if not always agree with, but that doesn't mean that they make discussion easy or possible; after all, it's hard to talk about proper deployment strategies when there's still someone who is insistent that Servitors are a good unit if you give them a chance.

Comments (29)

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Forumitis = Propaganda.
Whilst I am not saying you are wrong, I will give you my experience.

I started playing 5th ed in 09. I was running BT on foot. I was winning against my brothers Orks on foot.

I started going to BoLS and Jawaballs, and learnt some new ways of thinking and playing. Hanging out on B&C allowed me to grow further. Interestingly, a third or so of the guys I was listening to visited YTTH and 3++.
I had already visited YTTH but found Stelek too rough. I gave him another shot and having some emotional armour on, found that by not getting wounded by his style, I was able to improve greatly.

What Stelek and 3++ have taught me [which is also due to the cadre of readers they have] improved my game many times over what BoLS, B&C and ATT ever gave me.

Do YTTH and 3++ have to 'bash' the forums? No. But if and when they do, I can understand why. You get guys insisting that because they win [in their small pool] they are right.
Others get offended because a blog author is rude and therefore dismiss his advice.
These are two TERRIBLE reasons for ignoring what the blogs have to say.

I see these forumitis pieces as an explanation of that reality. Is it needed? I don't know, but it does have a point.

I would be brave enough to say that YTTH and 3++ offer far more growth for gamers on the TT than what forums do, and I spend most of my time on the forums rather than the blogs. I love forums, but I'd never confuse what they give me with what blogs give me.
>Comments made on blogs are made by a homogeneous group of "readers". You have almost no way of distinguishing one commentator from another.

Huh, I've always used the name next to the comment to distinguish who was talking. Why is it any harder on a blog than on a forum?

>There's a range of methods including awards, reputation, activity indicators, profile images and of course the extensive categorisation of posts and topics.

Care to explain? What kind of "awards" are we talking about? Aside from "the moderators think user X is awesome," I've never seen anything of the type. Similarly, I've never seen a reputation system that meant... well, anything at all. Profile images are just as relevant on blog comment systems as forums; why would they differentiate forum users and not blog users?

It's true that different forums do tend to subdivide users, but most forums do not do so in a useful manner; there is normally a tactics forum, a painting forum, etc, with very little finer division than that.

>why are you persisting pseudo-scientific persecution of moderated tactical discussion.
For the same reason I engage in pseudo-scientific discussion of game mechanics: I think it has something to offer. I'm not "persecuting" forums, I said straight up that I think there are intelligent and talented people on plenty of forums, but the nature of the beast is that they tend to get drowned out in a sea of mediocrity.

If you disagree? *shrug* Hey, everyone is allowed to have their opinion. If I had posted something like this at most forums, I would get at LEAST a warning and more likely a ban; believe me, I speak from experience. Blogs are less restrictive and more conducive to open discussion in most ways.

>When was the last time Stelek admitted he interpreted the rules incorrectly or made a major mistake in a game?

I never claimed blogs were some sort of perfect utopian device for the betterment of all mankind. I even pointed out some of their flaws, though that wasn't the focus of the article.
Another issue is within the game system itself. It takes a long time to play games. And a long time (and money) to assemble new units. So playtesting new ideas is not easy. Even if you have the units already, what are the chances you will be able to quickly get enough statistically relevant game data against equally skilled opponents with equally optimized lists? Unlike Magic the Gathering, where you can play a half dozen or so games in an hour in playtesting with proxies, 40k simply cannot do that.

That creates a big problem. Since very few people (I contend that not a single person in the world playtests enough to get statistically relevant results) are play-testing adequately there is a very real lack of verifiable data out there. If someone says, "such and such deck is great!" someone will check the daily Magic tournament results and check, or playtest himself in an hour or two. In 40k, if someone says "Fire Warriors are great" there is a great deal less verifiable evidence out there to discredit his bad idea. You can use logic, and rhetoric, and even some examples, but most 40k arguments come down to theoryhammer.

Because of the lack of quantifiable data, THE DUMB PEOPLE DONT SHUT UP. In the Magic community the bad ideas get weeded out so quickly that the people spouting them are silenced in short order. In the 40k community TauPlayer1234 might spout off about the merits of fire warriors for months and not stand corrected in a convincing enough manner to bring it to an end. And at that point, he who shouts loudest is heard, and smart people usually aren't into shouting matches with idiots.
3 replies · active 752 weeks ago
Jackelope King's avatar

Jackelope King · 752 weeks ago

Gotta echo you here on the statistical relevance of results. People will jump online and sing the praises of terrible units because they used them this one time, and they totally kicked the tar out of these guys or those guys. I like to refer to this as the Hail Mary Pass. Yeah, it's cool when it works, but if you base your offense on the Hail Mary Pass, you probably won't win a lot of games in American Football.
Tauplayer1234's avatar

Tauplayer1234 · 752 weeks ago

Hey no fair!
What are the odds?
Forumitis: Stupid shit propagated in an environment full of more stupid shit.

Next topic.
2 replies · active 752 weeks ago
Kirby... I don't like the restriction on only being able to like a comment once!
Make new accounts lol.
Hycklaren's avatar

Hycklaren · 752 weeks ago

It is interesting that the very nature of blogs means that the information in question cannot really be called upon. This blog, and almost all others, have exactly the same tendencies to elitism just like any forum, of course the big problem is that if you get called out on anything you can simply remove remarks or troll them since you are both the author and lone moderator, god forums will have moderators capable of handling situations when discussions move in that way, blogs don't even aspire to it. The common use of snow mobiling on blogs is a clear example of this, it is just a nastier form of sir bruce that no decent forum would allow yet it prevails in the blogland.

Yes, blogs allow you to more freely post what you want and how you want to post it but that has little bearing on actual quality, especially when it is always the same usual suspects who give the article the thumbs up. The only difference from forums here is that the initial post is the main event and that the author also has the authority of a moderator with no peer moderators. It is also different venues, blogs are hardly the realm of equal discussions but they are a far superior medium for publishing articles so it depends on what the reader is after, not the author, if he prefers forums or blogs.

Big size doesn't equal worse quality, it just means that you will have more interaction which in turn means that your voice might get lost in which case you either didn't state your idea clearly enough, you didn't poke enough holes in others' counter-ideas or that your idea simply doesn't hold enough water to begin with. Sure, it is easy to get drowned by mediocre ideas but that is the same deal for blogs, which there are hundred thousands of.

I find this blog to be moderately entertaining from time to time (not especially into competitive playing) but these sort of "analysis" of what is wrong with forums and how they are all bad doesn't really add anything except showing the the contempt of the authors and, as this particular article clearly shows, their bigotry.
3 replies · active less than 1 minute ago
Kirby has deleted a whole one comment to my knowledge. He doesn't go around deleting comments of any one who disagrees with him and people do disagree with him a lot.
Most cases he tries to have a proper discussion with people who disagree with him, sure being the only moderator is open to abuse but some people are mature enough not to abuse that power.
Which was Hymril's post and full of swearing, insults and no content and after he was warned.

Kuolema is on a roll today as this is again the exact point (one of) trying to be conveyed.
I think you're correct that blogs encourage elitism in a way forums do not, but that wasn't the point of the article. The counter-argument is that a blog that becomes too swollen will lose readers/commenters as the message becomes less interesting/useful to them, so there is a natural balancing mechanism (albeit one that doesn't necessarily work perfectly, I must admit.)

>doesn't really add anything except showing the the contempt of the authors and, as this particular article clearly shows, their bigotry

Really, now, are we taking this to this level? I'm certainly willing to accept criticisms, but calling something "bigotry" when I go out of my way to explain that I do not think forum users are any different than anyone else, etc, strikes me as a bit unfair. As I said in the article, it's the result of the mode of discussion, not any sort of inherent flaw of the users- you can imagine that a crowd of people all shouting to be heard over each other would also be an inefficient form of discussion. Not all communication is equally useful in all situations.
Blogs aren't different from forums except that in forums people can make their own topics.

Experience has taught that is a power than most people can't handle.
Basically, yes; however, I think it's more than just "people need to learn to be decent." People _can't_ just decide to change their nature, it's not the way things are. Certainly, they can make efforts to be more polite, etc, but that only goes so far: as you say, people will behave differently around strangers than those they know, and there's simply no way to "know" all umpteen-thousand users on a forum. The internet is, by nature, impersonal.

I disagree that it's not a result of numbers; size is the crux of the thing. In a smaller group, it _is_ possible to know everyone and the group can be self-correcting, but as size increases this becomes impossible and the lack of real social consequences becomes a driving factor, forcing third-party intervention from moderators. This can work, but tends to be heavy-handed at best and arbitrary at worst.
The most annoying "forum sin" is when people can't put units into a value context. Yes, we know your Ogryns beat down a vanilla assault squad one game. How much did that beating cost? Where else could the points have gone?
Nightstalker's avatar

Nightstalker · 752 weeks ago

I have always thought probably the best word for it is Mob mentality.. a strong voice comes up with an interesting idea.. suddenly it gets swarmed over by the masses thinking its the best thing since sliced bread.. and after that they hold true to their beliefs come hell or high water.
I have to agree that a lot of forums are devoid of "good" content in any NEW posts. I remember when ATT started out and was an excellent place. Tau got a new codex, people went over it, through it and under it to get the best out of it. At the same time you got a lot of new users. Once people had worked out the ins and outs of the army, the forum was left with a large amount of users, all wanting to contribute, but with nothing meaningful to post.

I still find it to be one of the better places to go, but I do agree that it has declined in quality over the years.
1 reply · active 752 weeks ago
:( ATT is an excellent example of a site stuck in a poor paradigm- woe betide the man who speaks ill of Fire Warriors there. Moreover, the rules for posting are so absurdly restrictive that it's nigh-impossible to actually discuss anything there.
Speaking from experience, the one good thing about forums is that it gets you to look at your own experiences. Not because anybody is causing you to change your thinking, but because if you're like me (and Wilhem over a B&C) you have to explain even the simplest notion in very basic, very well though out terms to make sure that some motormouth with 5,000 posts doesn't come in and yell, "Tactical Marines are bestest in a Blood Angels army!" when someone's asking for advice on how to turn a 4th edition army into a halfway decent army in today's world.

I figure if I can make 1 person a week take a look at their army, I've made the world a better place. So far this week I think I've gotten a few people directed over to the Blood Angels armies in 5th articles- mission accomplished.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
While that's certainly a noble goal, I find that it's one that only ends up frustrating me. Certainly, I'd like to try and help people on an individual basis, but there is a limit to how much time I can invest in internet theory about this game, and writing up a "No, seriously, there are other ways to build Tyranids" post for the fortieth time yields me very little enjoyment compared to writing more diverse articles.

Certainly being able to explain something fundamental shows a strong grasp of the subject, but there's also something to be said about moving beyond the fundamentals.
GM Rex Nihilo's avatar

GM Rex Nihilo · 752 weeks ago

Better his time around, but I still don't entirely agree, I like Democracy and can deal, albeit a challenge a times, with the odd nutbar because they aren't the norm. Both have their place, no need to get in a pissing contest.
3 replies · active less than 1 minute ago
It's not really an issue of democracy vs ogliarchy, it's an issue of moderated panels vs everyone shouting at once- the "signal to noise ratio," if you will. Now, obviously an experienced player isn't going to have a problem knowing which is which (although it may still be annoying to him to have to try and filter out all the noise), but that's not our only concern; for someone just starting the hobby or who is looking to improve their game/army, differentiating the good from the bad is going to be a lot more of a challenge.
Which is also why I defend 3++ when it's trashed and people seem to misinterpret what we do (i.e. assume WAAC egomaniac).
GM Rex Nihilo's avatar

GM Rex Nihilo · 751 weeks ago

Kirby et al, I like your site keep churning out the great articles, I am not aware of any trashing except for maybe the one taken toward people but so what it is our blog. The bloggosphere is a good place to promote the hobby and ideas but so are the forums. Forums are not the issue it is peoples behaviour even having said that forums are not as chaotic a place as you say they are. Many great conversations have happened there and for newbs I submit the are better than a blog due to the interaction. Blog away, myself and others will look forward to it and don't worry about the forums.
It might be something to add that blogs are article-oriented; people are writing for posterity and to build a knowledge-base, rather than to engage in casual conversation as tends to happen in forums.

As for content, it speaks for itself. I don't think YTTH provides good advice, but I do think it challenges people to think about the game on their own terms, which can only be good. Likewise there's some 'bad' (aka 'inaccurate', 'wrong', etc) advice on this blog, but trying to figure out how the author reached different conconclusions from the same material not only makes one think about the material, but makes one think self-critically as well.

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