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Friday, November 12, 2010

Point & Click - The Myth


This has been catalysed by Keeper's comments in reply to VT2's post about Tyranids but has been mentioned before in the balanced armies post. It's not an attack or response to Keeper but rather looking at the concept in general because it's an annoying fallacy.

Armies being 'point and click' is a simple myth; no matter how easy an army seems to win with. That's as simple as it comes really ^^ but I'll expand. No you don't have to be a tactical genius to win at 40k or Fantasy, but you do have to understand tactics beyond basic concepts like target priority (which a lot of people don't and yet point and click labels are handed out like candy to little kids). If you're trying to tell me concepts like bubble-wrap and blocking are point and click tactics, well very well, ya 40k is point and click for every race, not just IG and SW. Again, the amount of tactical concepts and analysis that goes into 40k/Fantasy is outstanding, even into armies like IG and SW and those tactics are implemented on the battlefield. You don't have to be a tactical genius to implement these but you do have to understanding when they need to be used, why they are being used (costs/benefits) and how it will impact your opponent and their response and how that will effect you, etc. Like any turn based game, it's a follow-on affect and running around with a 'point and click' mentality will make you lose.



Ya some armies are easier to operate than others and taking lists from sites like 3++ are often better than trying to build your own if you don't have a good grasp of the gaming system. This doesn't make them point and click but the lists the authors put up here generally have a good grasp of 40k concepts and when used properly may appear 'point and click.' They aren't, it's an attribute of the list that it may appear so but there is a lot of thinking that goes behind to actually make that list work on the table. One of the biggest 'point and click' armies for me is Tau and yet that is one of the hardest armies to play. Why is it point and click? If everything works properly all you have to do is manage your target priority. You have the firepower and defenses to basically accept your opponent and shoot him off the board. Why is it hard then? Because if you screw up, make a mistake or your opponent breaks through your lines (through no fault of your own), you have to work very hard to recover.

This is what armies like IG, Tyranids, SM/SW/BA, Witchunters, etc. all have that may make them appear point and click. They can recover from mistakes (or dice skewing) and still maintain momentum. Eldar, Tau, Chaos and Orks are examples of armies who cannot recover well if they lose the momentum, even if they are good lists. Whether lost by poor dice rolls, great dice rolls by your opponent or mistakes, these armies need to work very hard if they get on the back foot due to army design or codex faults, whilst the aforementioned armies do not have to work as hard. Does this make the armies point and click? No, it means you can make more mistakes and keep rolling and having a forgiving army isn't 'point and click.' Again, even the 'easy to operate armies' are still using advanced tactics beyond simple target priority and movement such as blocking, delaying, bubble-wrap, etc. to ensure their army can operate easily. Have an IG army setup their bubble-wrap incorrectly so it can be get assaulted on T1 and they'll have a much harder time. Space Wolves who push too far into midfield with their Rhinos rather than allowing their ranged fire to support them won't do as well. Etc. These aren't basic concepts as you actually have to think and analyse what is happening, particularly taking into account what your opponent does because you need to be able to predict what they are doing and react as needed.

A point and click army isn't going to really care what your opponent does and is going to operate under the same battle-plan most games. This is generally a recipe for disaster, not winning. Again, I think Tau are the most similar to this understanding because of how their codex works. They generally setup behind their bubble-wrap and attempt to block and delay their opponents in midfield whilst focusing on de-meching their opponent whilst minimising their ability to shoot. They also have to make a decision on when to target Troops as well to ensure their opponent can't win through objectives. They need to know when to fire their railheads as anti-infantry or anti-tank, etc. Even then it's still a complex exercise and you aren't always going to play similarly. You may operate under a similar battle-plan each game yet you need to have a very in-depth understanding of the army and tactics used to actually make it work. That's not point and click.

In the end, two good 5th edition armies have too many puzzle pieces to view an army as a simple point and click exercise. Your opponent can disrupt your battle-plan more often than not and not being able to be flexible in your battle-plan is asking for a good spanking. Good 5th edition armies can adapt to what your opponent does and evolve as the game goes on. This is anathema to point and click as you as a general have to be able to adapt your mindset and display this with your army on the table-top. All 5th edition books can do this which may make them seem point and click but there is a lot going on the background and trying to say otherwise is insulting to the players' of those armies intelligence.

Comments (52)

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I disagree on tyranids being able to recover, played around 60 games with the new codex in a variety of armies builds, and their not able to recover from mistakes, or recover from a fully mechanized list.
24 replies · active 750 weeks ago
They are.
Stop using the bad units, and you'll notice how powerful the army actually is.
TheGraveMind's avatar

TheGraveMind · 750 weeks ago

They really are not, if a crucial piece falls in the list, the whole flank/army can go crumbling with it. There are a good amount of bad units in the codex, some people don't like mono builds, and even then it doesn't hold up to many of the new books.
I'm sorry VT2, but they are not a powerful army, it is time you wake up, open your eyes, and see what is happening in the world. Tyranids are a fun army to play, I'm not contesting that, but in a competitive environment, they are not powerful. It is time you stop giving people false hope.
So hive guard, tervigons, warriors, primes, harpies, tyrannos, trygons, gants, shrikes, and gargoyles make up a monobuild?

I didn't notice.
All I see is people on warseer and other forums crying and moaning that their 60 genestealers and two zoans can't win against the 'overpowered' leafblower.
TheGraveMind's avatar

TheGraveMind · 750 weeks ago

Are you playing at like 3k? cause ya sure then you can fit all of that stuff in there fine. But you're also just throwing things in there at that point. For those of us that play at actual point levels, we have to prioritize what we put in our list, and still have a chance of winning.
I've never been to warseer, so I wouldn't know. Nor do I normally use genestealers or zoanthropes since the new book.
No, he's taking different units from among that list. Thus nids are not a monobuild...

And I'd like to mention on top of those units I have found the tyrant is useful as well. (though I am not so impressed by the trygon, perhaps I need to run a second)
Stelek, who is not widely known for his love of bad army lists, considers Tyranids one of the most competitive books out there.

Hulksmash, a highly-successful tournament player, just started a new blog devoted in great part to disproving the myth that Tyranids can't compete.

This isn't some wacky notion that VT2 and VT2 alone is promoting. There are a number of top-echelon players who consider it one of the best books out there.
Are nids really doing that well in tournaments? Not sure about other countries but in the US they don't seem to be tearing it up. Check under army rankings and tournaments. There is one nid army on army rankings and non appear under tournaments.

If you look from about March on when you could expect to realistically start seeing new nids there do not appear to be any. The could have been one of the blank spot armies though.
http://www.rankingshq.com/rankings/default.aspx?G...

Now vanilla marines on the other hand.... flex... :^)
Where's MoD to explain using tournament results as reliable and valid thoughts on which armies are good and bad again?

Check the army lists used for Tyranids in tournaments and they usually aren't too hot. one of the better Tyranid lists I've seen at a tournament used by a good player and experience with the army was Loriness who won High Lords of Terra. Most Tyranid lists I see have no focus (i.e. 3 different Elites) and are easily broken apart by different armies because the target priority against them is so easy.
Tournament results are not a perfect means of measuring to be sure due to missions and comp etc but they are really all we have to go by other than personal opinions and experiences and then you introduce bias on both sides and don't take into account the local gaming scene etc.

Maybe a lot of tyranid players lists are not up to snuff but it is hard to believe all of them stink that badly other than a handful across the world that have the answers that are eluding other bug players. I am guessing that handful like Loriness would most likely do very well with any army and tyranids just take more skill.
Yes, all of them stink badly.
Tyranids pride themselves on putting horrible units on the board. If they didn't, they'd win, and a winning tyranid has nothing to complain on.

People here put swarmlord and guard down at 1500 points, and think genestealers are scary and badass.
Just ditch the bad stuff.
To me blanket statements saying all of them stink badly is as silly as saying tyranids are unplayable. If tyranids are as terrifying as some people make them out to be on the table top I would have to believe more competative players would pick them up. If it is not about the codex and the tyranids are on par with IG and SW is it about something else or a combo of things. Lack of key models? Harder to work with in a timed tournament environment? Lack of dual threats in units (able to deal with mech and infantry)? The mech environment in general?

There seems to be a lack of nids in tournaments especially for a 5th edition army and I don't think "All tyranid players just suck..." is the reason.
There certainly is a lack of players, just like Tau but when looking at the majority of the lists taken to tournaments they aren't great (i.e. often poor army construction such as one squad of HG, one of Zoans + something else in Elites) just like Tau. I would also imagine only a tiny subset of the community actually visits online for list advice (I get roughly ~1800 visitors a day for example) and a large proportion of the Internet uses lists like the above and says Nids are crap.

An individual who just looks at tournament results and browses online quickly will see that prevailing opinion and perhaps not pick Tyranids up. Other factors like the conversion requirement for key models, etc. could be a contributing factor but mech certainly isn't an issue with a properly built Tyranid list.
Yes, that really is the reason.
Look around on this blog, rather than warseer and 'tourney sites.'

Both Puppy and Kirby do well with their tyranids, because they use the good units, and know basic things, such as threat rating, target priority, how to move, that you should play the scenario, and don't get hung up on 'waaaah! feel no pain! waaaaaah!'

I should really, really finish the tyranid articles I started.
It is good to see some people doing well with nids but if I was about to get into nids or a current tyranid player it would be a bit more comforting to see a larger cross section and more data to go on. I am not trying to start a fight here but there is no reason to believe this blog or the players listed are any less insular than warseer or tourney sites etc.
Here, proof that warseer, dakka, and all tyranid forums ever are completely clueless, and are only intested in whining: "BUT THE BLOOD ANGELS HAVE FEEL NO PAIN EVERYWHERE, AND 2+ ARMOR SAVES! OMG! OMG! IMBA METAGAMED TO DEATH! metametametametameta."

This would be a valid complaint if the book didn't have WS 5, 3 attack TROOPS, armed with instant-death power weapons, that end up doing more than the horrible genestealers everybody insists on taking, and way, way more than the clawgaunts the internet nicknamed 'ubergaunts' after release.
http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/10/how-to-...

Tyranid players don't win, and have never won. They've been crying for 12 years.
I think you are talking about warriors with boneswords or maybe the flying ones? Anyways they can be nasty but I have never feared them with my marines because I know what they can do and I make sure that they get the proper attention from Str 8 plus shooting. They really hate vindicators and MLs.

Also I don't know that what you are posting is proof that all tyranid tournament players suck. It might prove there are a lot of forum whiners but even then not all tyranid players on the forums appear to be whiners like you are claiming. Usually what happens is that you get a few boisterous ones that post over and over and make the whole group look bad while the ones that only post a few times and say. "Things are not so bad" or "I think things are fine" get drowned out by the louder more post happy members.
Look at the 'tourney lists' posted by tyranid players.
Always the same, horrible mix of genestealers, 'ubergaunts,' and so on.

Warriors aren't easy to kill.
Proper usage of warriors doesn't mean one large unit, but lots of small units. Say 2-4 walking warrior squads of 4 critters each, and one squad of flying warriors. You never see tyranid players do this, because 'waaaaah! instant death everywhere! waaaaah waaaaah! BATTLECANNONS!'

Even if you shoot my 4-man squads of warriors with missiles or whatever, I still get a cover save, because properly played, you'll have gants in front, as well as monsters scattered all over, so people have to pick wisely what they shoot.
Just to highlight the actual important part of what VT2 was saying; a properly built Tyranid list with Warriors causes huge target priority issues to your opponent. Having to choose between sending missiles into instant deathable Zoans/Ravs/Wars/Shrikes compared to taking wounds off MCs like Harpies/Tyrants/Tervigons/Trygons means your opponent has to focus on something and rely on the rest of their firepower to take down the other group unless the dice are skewed.
It can give you target priority issues but as with every army assessing the correct threat whether it is a threat to your own units or a threat to an objective etc is part of the game. The one nice thing about tyranids as an opponent at least in my experience is that there are no wasted shots on them especially with warriors and the other T4 units and they are susceptible to tank shock at key times. Nid players rarely equip warriors with rending claws anymore so on foot can be tied up with dreads which has worked for me before. Also they can be a liablity if you wait them out in cover and you a sporting a powerfist. Primes with warriors in a pod used to be a problem but with the FAQ I don't have to worry about that anymore which kind of makes me feel bad for nid players but it is nice on the other side of the table. :^)

As I mentioned before I think playing nids would make someone a better general in the long run compared to a lot of other armies because there is so much to think about from both sides of the table from top to bottom with nids.
There's no such thing as 'wasted shots.'
You can hit sub-optimal targets, yes, but that's not wasting your dakka.

The one and only way to waste firepower is to be out of range.
Wasted might not be the right word but against some armies you can be left with hard choices due to what is in range, mech etc but what I was saying is that is not very often a problem with nids you are likely to have a impact no matter what you shoot at short of a tyrant with a upgraded armor or that big walking cannon with a 2+ and even then you are better off than say a squad of guardsmen starring down a rhino with nothing be lasguns.
I'm taking a largely proxied warrior/primes//hive guard/trygon/terv/shrike/and garg list to the club today.
No idea what I'll be fighting, but it's probably something hard and popular.
Rankings HQ? Not worth the e-paper it's typed on. A LOT of that is just plain wrong.
Maybe so but I don't know for sure. What makes Rankings HQ bad? I don't have another source for tournament results. Do we have some links to other sites that do the same type of compulations with tourney results?
I've thought about this topic for a while. The armies that always seemed most point and click to me were gimmicky rock builds like dual nob bikers. You just pushed them forward and let the beatdown commence. No real tactics involved, just try to smash anything you get within 6" of. Once you're to the level of tactics where you have to use bubble wrap or even rhino/chimera choo-choo training across the board, you are definitely far away from point and click.

Give a beginner a nob biker list and he would play it reasonably close to it's potential. Give the same player a proper tau list and he would lose badly and remark, "i dont get what all these kroot are in the list for, I need more suits since mine got assaulted turn 2." Obviously, not every list is going to be as complicated to play as suittau, but neither is every list going to be as point and clicky as dual nob bikers.

A good gauge to tell how point and clicky the army is would be how easier it gets to beat upon subsequent rematches. If you get curb stomped the first game, play close the second game, and then beat them the third game, chances are that that army is a gimmick build with limited tactics necessary.
'Point and click' appears when a good player, using a good list, fights a bad player, with a bad list.
This is where the good player doesn't have to do anything, and can let her or his army largely play itself.

Automagically roll out into midfield. Take up position with dreads. Plasmabacks advance on the flanks, blowing away any and all opposition. Tacs even disembark, because all the millions of infantry running everywhere is so open to being destroyed by massed bolters.
if you want a challenge send him the link to VT2's article on nid players... He's yet to adapt from the 4th ed "tactics".
TheGraveMind's avatar

TheGraveMind · 750 weeks ago

Point and click are applicable to lists that have vasts amount of fire power and survivability like some wolf and IG lists. They really don't have to change tactics, simply target priority in some games. Tau are not point and click because while they too sit back and shoot, they can't survive that well, and have to apply tactics to keep alive.
Point and click isn't a lack of tactics by any sense of it. It is partly the theme of a list. What it can also be though is a lower requirement of thought against some armies. They simply focus their tactics mostly in the shooting phase, where other armies require tactics in different phases.
5 replies · active 750 weeks ago
If you presented a credible threat, and didn't put everything down in a cube or line during deployment, the wolves wouldn't 'point and click' you off the table before turn 4.
TheGraveMind's avatar

TheGraveMind · 750 weeks ago

I don't know if the wolves you face only use Heavy bolters, but the ones I face have High strength and low AP weapons, that actually cause damage when they hit. If you have an army that only has limited short range suppression fire like say, Tyranids, then wolves can easily table you by turn 4 if you don't play well.
So if you are not providing the challenge it becomes point and click...
VT2 even posted above:
" 'Point and click' appears when a good player, using a good list, fights a bad player, with a bad list.
This is where the good player doesn't have to do anything, and can let her or his army largely play itself. "

So if SW are point and click when you play nids, try to adapt...
'if you don't play well'
Play better? lol. I play wolves, and I know they're not point and click. Sure against some armies it's just a matter of 'well he hasn't got much firepower and wants to combat me, I'll sit back and pour rockets into him, feed him a unit or two, then throw everything at once', but that's because they are playing wrong. Against people who actually know what they're doing, it takes alot of thinking to get what you want from a wolf dex, and it usually ends up being the little things that you forget that ultimately cost you the match (look at my LoT result, all close matches which I lost because I forgot something (one guy left in a squad in a kp match, forgot my scouts, didn't know about a hidden meltagun on a model that had a bolter, ATSKNF, etc).

Point and click is just as wrong as saying 'I made this awesome battle-plan, it will beat everything' as if you're in that mindset, you're going to be upset when it doesn't work. No army is point and click, it might just be a bit more forgiving.
I'm sure TheWolfsLunch would love to table my Tyranids in a 7 turn game once let alone compared to reliably on T4. Far too many Tyranid players rely on Hive Guard and believe them short-ranged but 24"+6"+D6" isn't that bad and they don't simply roll over to die either. T-Fexes will provide cover to your whole army (as will Venomthropes) which can halve the effectiveness (or third) of the missiles on MCs and medium critters like Warriors/HG can protect the T-Fexes against AP2/1 which are protected by Gants (or everything by Venoms) which is how Tyranids need to play against missile spam.

A competitive army cannot reliably table another competitive army in four turns. It may happen when the dice are skewed on occasion but by definition of competitive army, it cannot happen with consistency.
I think point and click is a credible concept in 7th edition Fantasy. Not so much in 5th ed 40k.

I think most people confuse point and click as a concept with firepower-heavy armies since they don't have to move as much and can do damage at staggering rates.

Invariably, people are going to feel like they had no chance when they get bad matchups. IG and SW firepower armies are very strong lists and are probably going to win more than lose regardless of generals, and if one plays enough bad matchup games against them and feel like one had no chance in the games; then labels ensue.

MVBrandt was just writing about this concept on Whiskey and 40k.

Anyway, while I don't think "point and click" is valid; can we agree that certain armies are easier to use competitively than others?
2 replies · active 750 weeks ago
"I think point and click is a credible concept in 7th edition Fantasy. Not so much in 5th ed 40k."

Exactly. P&C is what happened in 7th ed fantasy when you were playing Beastmen and your opponent had a dual hydra/dragon Dark Elf list.
Absolutely re using competitively. Looking at momentum and flexibility the latest books are easily some of the best in this category and can be very forgiving in terms of recovery. It doesn't make them point and click as you said but they are easier to use than older armies due to this.
There are several different definitions of P&C already appearing in this thread, but I go with the definition that P&C means: "An inherent imbalance in the game rules which reaches the point where the outcome of a match can be predicted, with reasonable certainty, by a simple comparision of lists before the models are set down on the board." ____This being the case, there just aren't any true P&C lists in 5th ed 40k. Will there be times when two opposing, optimized lists will face each other and one will be at a disadvantage? Of course. Well made, competently played Orks are going to have to play hard against a well made, competently played, IG list. But the match is not going to be a foregone conclusion, and there is no one allcomers list that will win simply by showing up. Some fights may appear predestined, but this is often the case of one player having a better built list, superior deployment, and a better grasp on tactics. Give someone that's been playing this game for 5+ years and spends time reading tactia a nob bikerz list and pit him against a 6 month in SW player. My money would be on the nobz.
I fucking hate that phrase. I play Tau, and I am a very competitive player. I've had games that I totally planned, and executed perfectly, yet still only managed to pull draws/minor losses on, simply because we CAN lose momentum so quickly. One single miffed round of broadside fire, and your on the rocks, unless you get fancy with the 1" of an enemy model rule.

Its not point and click, its friggin hard to do. I've done nothing but research Tau batreps and different sites for the last 12 months, and I run games in my head when I'm at work. Point and click that you stupid asshats. Your shitbad swarm nids don't get that much thought, I guarantee it.
Like I said in the other post point and click does not mean auto pilot at least to me. Point and click armies to me are like heavy mech vet IG builds and ML spam SW builds. You can give them to someone completely new to the game and there is a good chance they will see success with the army. This does not mean I think they are over powered. If you want a term to hate, hate on that one. Some armies and builds either due to their saves or mech or firepower etc. are just easier to play and far more forgiving of mistakes than other armies. I would argue that Tyranids are not as forgiving of mistakes especially when it comes to synapse coverage etc.
5 replies · active 750 weeks ago
Some one completely new to the game is going to get rolled by an experienced player no matter what list you give the new guy.
Did you understand every single rule when you where completely new to the game?
Did you know what all your opponents units and guns even did? Let alone their special rules
Did you even know what you all your own units could do?
Players who are completely new are going to make a lot of mistakes. Might be mistakes in deployment, target priority, even when to move his troops near objectives.
Mistakes cost you the game.

You don't play competitive games against new players, you help them understand the game and the rules.
If the new player does not ask any questions and has no previous table top gaming experience at all and they are very young they might get rolled. Playing someone new might take longer but it does not mean they are tactical retards. I have run into very few new players that fall into the magical category of Helen Keller that everyone seems to lump them into. On the net everyone that plays 40k for the first time is special needs. That might make a good article.
When was the last time you started a new game? From your post I'm guessing a long time ago. =/
An experienced player will do better than a new player, it has nothing to do with the new guy being tactically retarded or not. But from the experienced player understanding the game better than the new guy. New players are not special needs they are simply new, and no army in 40k is point and click enough for a new player to have a good chance at winning against an experienced player with a good list.

Here's a real life example, I started warmahordes awhile ago, I've been playing table top games since 3rd 40k so I'm not completely new to table top games and I grasped the basic rules very easy, but I didn't grasp the game for a month or two. I made lists and tactics back then that I look back on now and go wtf was I thinking o.O?
Infinity was my last new game I tried about 6 months ago. I lost but did very well for my first game. If only my hacker had not been hacked... anyways... I have seen new players take strong builds and give experienced players a run for their money and even win. Sometimes this can be attributed to the other player taking it a little to easy on the new guy and realizing to late the other guy was more astute than they realized. Sometimes it is just people that have had more than there share of table top experience and know the right questions to ask and see the entire battlefield not just their own side.
Those people are in the minority thou, and still just proves some people are good at adapting to new games not that any list is point or click.

Find someone who won their first game with a list vs a good player with a good list that didn't take it easy on them and their was no really one sided dice involved and I'll admit the list is point and click.
Thou even finding a game played like that will be a challenge of it's own since not going easy on a new player is just being an asshole, someones first game should never be competitive but a learning experience to help them learn and understand the game.
Oh FFS. Would PLEASE people stop whining that SW and IG are overpowered? They aren't.

Also, I never undestood the "point and click" myth.
4 replies · active 750 weeks ago
It's the general belief that one army type will win, regardless of the person controlling the list, and regardless of the list it faces, using the same tactic each time, aim and fire/charge (or point and click). Usually applied to Wolves, IG, and Tau.

Lots of other variations on the definition but that's the general idea of each one.
Who said they were over powered. Like I said in post I hate that term because if you are using a legal combo from your codex and following the rules there is nothing overpowered about any build.
Again this wasn't at you but this is what the term means for the majority of players; basically what WolfsLunch said.
I was replying more to Gx1080 than Wolfslunch. Personally I don't view it as over powered or even an insult like some people seem to take it. It almost feels to me like everyone is arguing that everything is the same but that is just not the case. Even in 40k which is considered fairly balanced there is a considerable difference in armies and builds. Some take a lot more thought from the ground up with list building, positioning on the table top and sacrafice or protection of certain units etc. Like I said I don't care for the term over powered because if it is in a codex and legal to use there is nothing over powered about it. For instance I don't know that I would call a Vulkun list point and click but compared to builds with Lysander, Pedro and Shrike it is more forgiving and easier to run especially in this environment.
Forgot about this post.... Grey Knights. :D

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