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Friday, November 12, 2010
Point & Click - The Myth
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This has been catalysed by Keeper's comments in reply to VT2's post about Tyranids but has been mentioned before in the balanced armies post. It's not an attack or response to Keeper but rather looking at the concept in general because it's an annoying fallacy.
Armies being 'point and click' is a simple myth; no matter how easy an army seems to win with. That's as simple as it comes really ^^ but I'll expand. No you don't have to be a tactical genius to win at 40k or Fantasy, but you do have to understand tactics beyond basic concepts like target priority (which a lot of people don't and yet point and click labels are handed out like candy to little kids). If you're trying to tell me concepts like bubble-wrap and blocking are point and click tactics, well very well, ya 40k is point and click for every race, not just IG and SW. Again, the amount of tactical concepts and analysis that goes into 40k/Fantasy is outstanding, even into armies like IG and SW and those tactics are implemented on the battlefield. You don't have to be a tactical genius to implement these but you do have to understanding when they need to be used, why they are being used (costs/benefits) and how it will impact your opponent and their response and how that will effect you, etc. Like any turn based game, it's a follow-on affect and running around with a 'point and click' mentality will make you lose.
Ya some armies are easier to operate than others and taking lists from sites like 3++ are often better than trying to build your own if you don't have a good grasp of the gaming system. This doesn't make them point and click but the lists the authors put up here generally have a good grasp of 40k concepts and when used properly may appear 'point and click.' They aren't, it's an attribute of the list that it may appear so but there is a lot of thinking that goes behind to actually make that list work on the table. One of the biggest 'point and click' armies for me is Tau and yet that is one of the hardest armies to play. Why is it point and click? If everything works properly all you have to do is manage your target priority. You have the firepower and defenses to basically accept your opponent and shoot him off the board. Why is it hard then? Because if you screw up, make a mistake or your opponent breaks through your lines (through no fault of your own), you have to work very hard to recover.
This is what armies like IG, Tyranids, SM/SW/BA, Witchunters, etc. all have that may make them appear point and click. They can recover from mistakes (or dice skewing) and still maintain momentum. Eldar, Tau, Chaos and Orks are examples of armies who cannot recover well if they lose the momentum, even if they are good lists. Whether lost by poor dice rolls, great dice rolls by your opponent or mistakes, these armies need to work very hard if they get on the back foot due to army design or codex faults, whilst the aforementioned armies do not have to work as hard. Does this make the armies point and click? No, it means you can make more mistakes and keep rolling and having a forgiving army isn't 'point and click.' Again, even the 'easy to operate armies' are still using advanced tactics beyond simple target priority and movement such as blocking, delaying, bubble-wrap, etc. to ensure their army can operate easily. Have an IG army setup their bubble-wrap incorrectly so it can be get assaulted on T1 and they'll have a much harder time. Space Wolves who push too far into midfield with their Rhinos rather than allowing their ranged fire to support them won't do as well. Etc. These aren't basic concepts as you actually have to think and analyse what is happening, particularly taking into account what your opponent does because you need to be able to predict what they are doing and react as needed.
A point and click army isn't going to really care what your opponent does and is going to operate under the same battle-plan most games. This is generally a recipe for disaster, not winning. Again, I think Tau are the most similar to this understanding because of how their codex works. They generally setup behind their bubble-wrap and attempt to block and delay their opponents in midfield whilst focusing on de-meching their opponent whilst minimising their ability to shoot. They also have to make a decision on when to target Troops as well to ensure their opponent can't win through objectives. They need to know when to fire their railheads as anti-infantry or anti-tank, etc. Even then it's still a complex exercise and you aren't always going to play similarly. You may operate under a similar battle-plan each game yet you need to have a very in-depth understanding of the army and tactics used to actually make it work. That's not point and click.
In the end, two good 5th edition armies have too many puzzle pieces to view an army as a simple point and click exercise. Your opponent can disrupt your battle-plan more often than not and not being able to be flexible in your battle-plan is asking for a good spanking. Good 5th edition armies can adapt to what your opponent does and evolve as the game goes on. This is anathema to point and click as you as a general have to be able to adapt your mindset and display this with your army on the table-top. All 5th edition books can do this which may make them seem point and click but there is a lot going on the background and trying to say otherwise is insulting to the players' of those armies intelligence.
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Point & Click - The Myth
2010-11-12T23:31:00+11:00
Unknown
Analysis|Tactics|Warhammer 40k|
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sam · 750 weeks ago
VT2 79p · 750 weeks ago
Stop using the bad units, and you'll notice how powerful the army actually is.
TheGraveMind · 750 weeks ago
I'm sorry VT2, but they are not a powerful army, it is time you wake up, open your eyes, and see what is happening in the world. Tyranids are a fun army to play, I'm not contesting that, but in a competitive environment, they are not powerful. It is time you stop giving people false hope.
VT2 79p · 750 weeks ago
I didn't notice.
All I see is people on warseer and other forums crying and moaning that their 60 genestealers and two zoans can't win against the 'overpowered' leafblower.
TheGraveMind · 750 weeks ago
I've never been to warseer, so I wouldn't know. Nor do I normally use genestealers or zoanthropes since the new book.
Cambrain · 750 weeks ago
And I'd like to mention on top of those units I have found the tyrant is useful as well. (though I am not so impressed by the trygon, perhaps I need to run a second)
Ben · 750 weeks ago
Hulksmash, a highly-successful tournament player, just started a new blog devoted in great part to disproving the myth that Tyranids can't compete.
This isn't some wacky notion that VT2 and VT2 alone is promoting. There are a number of top-echelon players who consider it one of the best books out there.
Keeper · 750 weeks ago
If you look from about March on when you could expect to realistically start seeing new nids there do not appear to be any. The could have been one of the blank spot armies though.
http://www.rankingshq.com/rankings/default.aspx?G...
Now vanilla marines on the other hand.... flex... :^)
Kirby 118p · 750 weeks ago
Check the army lists used for Tyranids in tournaments and they usually aren't too hot. one of the better Tyranid lists I've seen at a tournament used by a good player and experience with the army was Loriness who won High Lords of Terra. Most Tyranid lists I see have no focus (i.e. 3 different Elites) and are easily broken apart by different armies because the target priority against them is so easy.
Keeper · 750 weeks ago
Maybe a lot of tyranid players lists are not up to snuff but it is hard to believe all of them stink that badly other than a handful across the world that have the answers that are eluding other bug players. I am guessing that handful like Loriness would most likely do very well with any army and tyranids just take more skill.
VT2 79p · 750 weeks ago
Tyranids pride themselves on putting horrible units on the board. If they didn't, they'd win, and a winning tyranid has nothing to complain on.
People here put swarmlord and guard down at 1500 points, and think genestealers are scary and badass.
Just ditch the bad stuff.
Keeper · 750 weeks ago
There seems to be a lack of nids in tournaments especially for a 5th edition army and I don't think "All tyranid players just suck..." is the reason.
Kirby 118p · 750 weeks ago
An individual who just looks at tournament results and browses online quickly will see that prevailing opinion and perhaps not pick Tyranids up. Other factors like the conversion requirement for key models, etc. could be a contributing factor but mech certainly isn't an issue with a properly built Tyranid list.
VT2 79p · 750 weeks ago
Look around on this blog, rather than warseer and 'tourney sites.'
Both Puppy and Kirby do well with their tyranids, because they use the good units, and know basic things, such as threat rating, target priority, how to move, that you should play the scenario, and don't get hung up on 'waaaah! feel no pain! waaaaaah!'
I should really, really finish the tyranid articles I started.
Keepr · 750 weeks ago
VT2 79p · 750 weeks ago
This would be a valid complaint if the book didn't have WS 5, 3 attack TROOPS, armed with instant-death power weapons, that end up doing more than the horrible genestealers everybody insists on taking, and way, way more than the clawgaunts the internet nicknamed 'ubergaunts' after release.
http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/10/how-to-...
Tyranid players don't win, and have never won. They've been crying for 12 years.
Keepr · 750 weeks ago
Also I don't know that what you are posting is proof that all tyranid tournament players suck. It might prove there are a lot of forum whiners but even then not all tyranid players on the forums appear to be whiners like you are claiming. Usually what happens is that you get a few boisterous ones that post over and over and make the whole group look bad while the ones that only post a few times and say. "Things are not so bad" or "I think things are fine" get drowned out by the louder more post happy members.
VT2 79p · 750 weeks ago
Always the same, horrible mix of genestealers, 'ubergaunts,' and so on.
Warriors aren't easy to kill.
Proper usage of warriors doesn't mean one large unit, but lots of small units. Say 2-4 walking warrior squads of 4 critters each, and one squad of flying warriors. You never see tyranid players do this, because 'waaaaah! instant death everywhere! waaaaah waaaaah! BATTLECANNONS!'
Even if you shoot my 4-man squads of warriors with missiles or whatever, I still get a cover save, because properly played, you'll have gants in front, as well as monsters scattered all over, so people have to pick wisely what they shoot.
Kirby 118p · 750 weeks ago
Keeper · 750 weeks ago
As I mentioned before I think playing nids would make someone a better general in the long run compared to a lot of other armies because there is so much to think about from both sides of the table from top to bottom with nids.
VT2 79p · 750 weeks ago
You can hit sub-optimal targets, yes, but that's not wasting your dakka.
The one and only way to waste firepower is to be out of range.
Keeper · 749 weeks ago
VT2 79p · 750 weeks ago
No idea what I'll be fighting, but it's probably something hard and popular.
TKE · 750 weeks ago
Keeper · 750 weeks ago
Nikephoros · 750 weeks ago
Give a beginner a nob biker list and he would play it reasonably close to it's potential. Give the same player a proper tau list and he would lose badly and remark, "i dont get what all these kroot are in the list for, I need more suits since mine got assaulted turn 2." Obviously, not every list is going to be as complicated to play as suittau, but neither is every list going to be as point and clicky as dual nob bikers.
A good gauge to tell how point and clicky the army is would be how easier it gets to beat upon subsequent rematches. If you get curb stomped the first game, play close the second game, and then beat them the third game, chances are that that army is a gimmick build with limited tactics necessary.
VT2 79p · 750 weeks ago
This is where the good player doesn't have to do anything, and can let her or his army largely play itself.
Automagically roll out into midfield. Take up position with dreads. Plasmabacks advance on the flanks, blowing away any and all opposition. Tacs even disembark, because all the millions of infantry running everywhere is so open to being destroyed by massed bolters.
@InDavesLife · 750 weeks ago
Cambrian · 750 weeks ago
TheGraveMind · 750 weeks ago
Point and click isn't a lack of tactics by any sense of it. It is partly the theme of a list. What it can also be though is a lower requirement of thought against some armies. They simply focus their tactics mostly in the shooting phase, where other armies require tactics in different phases.
VT2 79p · 750 weeks ago
TheGraveMind · 750 weeks ago
Cambrian · 750 weeks ago
VT2 even posted above:
" 'Point and click' appears when a good player, using a good list, fights a bad player, with a bad list.
This is where the good player doesn't have to do anything, and can let her or his army largely play itself. "
So if SW are point and click when you play nids, try to adapt...
TheWolfsLunch 61p · 750 weeks ago
Play better? lol. I play wolves, and I know they're not point and click. Sure against some armies it's just a matter of 'well he hasn't got much firepower and wants to combat me, I'll sit back and pour rockets into him, feed him a unit or two, then throw everything at once', but that's because they are playing wrong. Against people who actually know what they're doing, it takes alot of thinking to get what you want from a wolf dex, and it usually ends up being the little things that you forget that ultimately cost you the match (look at my LoT result, all close matches which I lost because I forgot something (one guy left in a squad in a kp match, forgot my scouts, didn't know about a hidden meltagun on a model that had a bolter, ATSKNF, etc).
Point and click is just as wrong as saying 'I made this awesome battle-plan, it will beat everything' as if you're in that mindset, you're going to be upset when it doesn't work. No army is point and click, it might just be a bit more forgiving.
Kirby 118p · 750 weeks ago
A competitive army cannot reliably table another competitive army in four turns. It may happen when the dice are skewed on occasion but by definition of competitive army, it cannot happen with consistency.
nfluger 60p · 750 weeks ago
I think most people confuse point and click as a concept with firepower-heavy armies since they don't have to move as much and can do damage at staggering rates.
Invariably, people are going to feel like they had no chance when they get bad matchups. IG and SW firepower armies are very strong lists and are probably going to win more than lose regardless of generals, and if one plays enough bad matchup games against them and feel like one had no chance in the games; then labels ensue.
MVBrandt was just writing about this concept on Whiskey and 40k.
Anyway, while I don't think "point and click" is valid; can we agree that certain armies are easier to use competitively than others?
ProfessorEldritch · 750 weeks ago
Exactly. P&C is what happened in 7th ed fantasy when you were playing Beastmen and your opponent had a dual hydra/dragon Dark Elf list.
Kirby 118p · 750 weeks ago
ProfessorEldritch · 750 weeks ago
SneakyDan · 750 weeks ago
Its not point and click, its friggin hard to do. I've done nothing but research Tau batreps and different sites for the last 12 months, and I run games in my head when I'm at work. Point and click that you stupid asshats. Your shitbad swarm nids don't get that much thought, I guarantee it.
Keeper · 750 weeks ago
Kuolema · 750 weeks ago
Did you understand every single rule when you where completely new to the game?
Did you know what all your opponents units and guns even did? Let alone their special rules
Did you even know what you all your own units could do?
Players who are completely new are going to make a lot of mistakes. Might be mistakes in deployment, target priority, even when to move his troops near objectives.
Mistakes cost you the game.
You don't play competitive games against new players, you help them understand the game and the rules.
Keeper · 750 weeks ago
Kuolema · 750 weeks ago
An experienced player will do better than a new player, it has nothing to do with the new guy being tactically retarded or not. But from the experienced player understanding the game better than the new guy. New players are not special needs they are simply new, and no army in 40k is point and click enough for a new player to have a good chance at winning against an experienced player with a good list.
Here's a real life example, I started warmahordes awhile ago, I've been playing table top games since 3rd 40k so I'm not completely new to table top games and I grasped the basic rules very easy, but I didn't grasp the game for a month or two. I made lists and tactics back then that I look back on now and go wtf was I thinking o.O?
Keeper · 750 weeks ago
Kuolema · 750 weeks ago
Find someone who won their first game with a list vs a good player with a good list that didn't take it easy on them and their was no really one sided dice involved and I'll admit the list is point and click.
Thou even finding a game played like that will be a challenge of it's own since not going easy on a new player is just being an asshole, someones first game should never be competitive but a learning experience to help them learn and understand the game.
Gx1080 · 750 weeks ago
Also, I never undestood the "point and click" myth.
TheWolfsLunch 61p · 750 weeks ago
Lots of other variations on the definition but that's the general idea of each one.
Keeper · 750 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 750 weeks ago
Keeper · 750 weeks ago
Keeper · 669 weeks ago