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Tuesday, December 7, 2010

Guys, seriously, SW and Guard aren't that amazing.


Alright, I gotta get this one off my chest because I'm tired of hearing about it. Every time anyone posts about which armies are good and which aren't, at least half (if not WAY more) the people whine about how Mech Guard and Space Wolves are the best thing since sliced cheese and they completely trump all other armies and they're just "point and click" and they're totally unfair.

Guys, I've got a revelation for you: they aren't any better than the other 5E armies.

Yeah, that's right. Including the "awful, terrible" vanilla Marines that have absolutely nothing of use except TH/SS Terminators and Sternguard and Master of the Forge and Null Zone and Gate of Infinity and Relic Blades and Combat Tactics and all-biker lists and twelve-capacity Drop Pods.

Including Tyranids, who are so worthless all they get are the best objective-scorer in the game that is also countercharge and a T6 troop unit. And 50pt Cyclone Missile Launchers that fire indirectly and also have T6 and you can take three per squad without having to buy extra dorks. Oh and 2+ attacks on virtually every model in the army and dirt-cheap power weapons and all manner of other unique shit for messing with the enemy's stats.

SW and IG are good codices. They still have weaknesses. They can still be beaten. They are not head-and-shoulders above all the other books; if you fight them the right way, rather than simply smashing into them headfirst and complaining that your face hurts, you will find that they will crumble just like any other army.

So Grey Hunters are 1pt cheaper than a Tactical. So what? Ooh, so they save 20pts in their army, or maybe 30 if they invest heavily. Ld8 is a bitch, children; ask any Guard player. You might think they're safe in their boxes, but if you aren't knocking them out of those metal boxes you weren't going to win anyways. So get them out, force those tests, and laugh as an awful lot of their crazy space vikings turn out to be kind of scaredy little girls. Oh, but they can sacrifice an elite slot (and their much-vaunted) second weapon to be less of cowards. It's not like Elites units or Meltaguns are good, right? So just fail all those Pinning and Morale tests. And you know what else is awesome? Paying 250+ pts for an HQ selection. Yeah, Rune Priests, we get it, but they can't fight worth shit, so unless you want to roll to anything melee, you probably want some countercharge. Oh, and it looks like they don't get good Terminators, so they've gotta shell out for something else instead.

Oh man, but Guard. Guard have no weaknesses. I mean T3 and Ld8 and no ATSKNF- how often are those things relevant? Like, what are the chances the enemy is gonna try and damage your units? You're in these totally invulnerable boxes that- wait, what's that? They're AV10 on the sides? Ah. Right. Yeah, um, Dark Eldar and Orks can tell you that AV10 is not really all that tough. Valkyries aren't AV10, though, so you can rush those things right up on the enemy and WIN them with melta! Which the enemy certainly doesn't have, so there is NO way you just sent 250pts of models in there to die horrible, horrible deaths, nosirree. And all those tanks they can take! Millions of tanks! Whole armies of tanks! Which still might cost points, I guess! So probably not "millions" per se, but more like four or five! And, as it turns out, AV14 is not very good protection against Melta weapons, either! So perhaps squadroning up vehicles is not as impressive as it first seemed! And, of course, they get a million other toys, like Psyker Battle Squads (which certainly don't have problems because they're the only Ld9 psykers around these days) and Marbo (who never misses and kills himself or your own models) and orders (which are super-reliable because of Ld8, remember?)

Guys, guys, calm down. Okay? Okay, guys? I get you hate being shot off the board- I don't like losing, either. And I know it's really easy to look at your opponent's list and say "God your stuff is so unfair, it must take no skill at all to play such a stupid, cheesy list." Guys, don't do this, because when you do it you are basically saying "I am not enough of a human being to admit that my mistakes, my opponent's skills, or random chance were responsible for the bad things that sometimes happen to me. The only answer is a terrible conspiracy." Guys, don't do this; it makes you look like kind of a jerk and an idiot.

Okay, guys? Everything is gonna be just fine. Play well (instead of shitty) next time and act like an adult and work to try and do well and I think you'll find that things aren't really that bad. Unless you're playing Necrons or Orks or Daemons or something, it's perfectly possible to beat them, guys, so quit acting like men in tanks are the horrible end of this game and everyone is a monster.

Alright, guys?

Guys.

Comments (123)

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Well said.
firstly LOL .... While i agree those 2 codex's are basically the only 1st tier codex's along with maybe daemons also.
6 replies · active 747 weeks ago
Not your best article.

Sorry, but I feel like "not invulnerable" is not the same as "not amazing". You didn't even bring up the stuff that let IG and SW take the step from tough to terrifying: Vendettas and Thunderwolves.

Also, fighting IG and SW the "right way" generally connotes a fair bit of list-tailoring. Maybe that's done where you are, but it's generally take-all-comers around here. And that's not even addressing "what do 3E/4E codexes do?"
4 replies · active 747 weeks ago
Dingareth's avatar

Dingareth · 747 weeks ago

Do me a favor and link to this in response to every comment on Goatboy's post this week?

The world will thank you.
Kjeldorian's avatar

Kjeldorian · 747 weeks ago

Just like to point out that psyker battle squads aren't the only Ld9 psykers... The allmighty Dark Angels librarian is too.
5 replies · active 747 weeks ago
THANK YOU SO MUCH. Now I have something to link when people start to whine.
I lurk here a lot but rarely comment, time being what it is. You forced me out with this one.

Well done, well said!

I think it's hard to argue these two Codexes offer a bunch of top options, but they're hardly unbeatable. They both have weaknesses capable of being exploited, like you pointed out; one you didn't was the static elements of the army.

IG: Vendettas aren't static but can't tank rush - that point is vital to beating Guard. Regarding the tank element, many times you'll see Guard castle up - and I find it's easy to keep them there. It's also easy to make a coordinated attack... you know where they are!

Space Wolves: Long Fangs are a bargain, but again it means there is a single point of attack, a chink you can exploit. Thunderwolves are great, but having a rock means you've spent the points for it. It's no different than super units from any other book - find a way to feed it little bits so it doesn't earn its keep or make a coordinated attack and break it.

I think it's hard to find a 'best build' in the Tyranid book primarily because of how balanced it is. I don't think enough players appreciate this book, since I'm not seeing many players out there anymore.

I see plenty of folks winning games with armies other than Guard and Wolves. I'm glad someone said it.
2 replies · active 747 weeks ago
Oh yeah, THunderwolves. T5 marines are unkillable, just ask Plague warriors.

No? They aren't? They also have a low model count and most of the time only a single model with a SS per unit because they are so damn expensive?

Heh. They still die if you shoot them enough. Oh, and lol Null Zone.
2 replies · active 747 weeks ago
You forgot to talk about the squadroned LEMON russes, which are so imba, you'll kill a full squad worth 450+ points with a suicidal melta unit.
Is sliced cheese really that good?

Please come and play at any club I've ever attended. The whining and bitching but some members is phenomenal. Every codex is OP, CHEESE, WAAC, OP CHEESE!!!! Oh... doesn't meant that it's equal???
7 replies · active 747 weeks ago
The only problem I have with wolves and to a lesser extent guard is that my nid list isnt well equipped to handle either, and I am unwilling to shell out the cash for 3 tyrannofexs and more hive guard.
1 reply · active 747 weeks ago
There is a difference between 'overpowered' and 'unbeatable'. I agree that they are not 'unbeatable'.
Well said! I had an argument with somebody where they said SW were overpowered, because; you get a 700 point combination of HQ chocies or something with JotWW, that hides in cover destroying your units. That Always Strike First, hit Tyranid Warriors on a 2+ and wound on a 2+ and throw out 40-60 power weapon attacks.

He found it inconcievable that I said that tyranid warriors would still have a good chance of taking them down. Not to mention the hive guard slaughtering them from the sides, the lack of anything else in his army, etc etc.

I just said I wasn't going to bother.
--
Rant over. So what tips can you give a tyranid player (using the footsie list you gave me!) to combat IG and SW?
2 replies · active 747 weeks ago
People cannot even correctly determine what is actually overpowered and what isn't. The amount of hate the Vendetta attracts is unbelievable, but no one has ever complained about Predators, Hydras or Company Command squads, despite these being obscenely efficient for their points.
1 reply · active 747 weeks ago
I would say that IG & SW are powerful but for a different reason - instead of maximising their strengths, its very easy to minimise their weaknesses.

Grey Hunters - reasonable shooting, reasonable assault, reasonable armour save. Reasonable mobility via Pod or Rhino. There's nothing they don't do at least averagely - which means there's little that can go very wrong very fast. IG Veterans also get reasonable armour saves, above-average shooting, reasonable mobility via Chimera, but below average assault (which can be helped by Creed or Straken).

Compare your vanilla tactical marine and you have to make tradeoffs. reasonable shooting competes with mobility or squad size (stick 'em in a razorback) due to the heavy weapon in the squad. Assault for tactical marines is very very average at best. They have advantages - leadership, the ability to have special rules via their special characters (emphasis here), transport capacity as previously mentioned. But these advantages don't directly translate into more dead enemy - meaning they take a better player to truly exploit.

$0.02
2 replies · active 747 weeks ago
Well said.

'Tier' is bulldung. Aside from heavily outdated codices, most are reasonably balanced. There's cheese available in all armies. Just that SW/BA/IG its more obvious. Until people get away from the 'melta, mech and power weapons' mindset those armies will be seen as the best.
the veterinarian 's avatar

the veterinarian · 747 weeks ago

*grabs abuse pussy, forces pills into mouth and rubs throat til he swallows* "there, there now. Who's a good boy? Just relax now"
IG and SW are certainly easier to build tough lists out of an offer more variety to go about doing so.

Do I think they are unbeatable? Heck no (as I'm advocating that I can beat them reliably with Orks!)!
I agree. Except for orks, I've pretty much taken my 3rd Co Ultras on a stomp tour around the other codexi. The player makes the list, the list does not make the player.
1 reply · active 747 weeks ago
the young people of today have difficulty coping with anything that is more complex than the clicking of the mouse button or a joypad.
So much internet tough guys here.

Why not look at some of the major tournaments and make a comparison? I believe you should find SW, IG or BA on top of most lists. Of course no list is unbeatable, that's just a stupid statement to get people fire up about how awesome they were stomping SW or IG. Let's look at statistics instead.

For those internet tough guys whom eat SW and IG with other codices, why are SW and IG still stand on top on most tournaments? If their weakness can be exploit, those 2 codices shouldn't be top tier anymore.

Does eating baby seal really satisfy your ego? Dose eating Mr. Average feel better? Here comes another person telling me that his friend xxx is an frequent tournament goer with SW and IG army, and then how he stomp that friend all the time with other codices. Humm... yeah...

Let's get back to reality. IG and SW is good (BA after), period. Other codices are usually will be facing an up-hill battle against them.
38 replies · active 747 weeks ago
Fascinating post, it seems there is a lot of passion in those words.

The comment of telling people to learn to play, is occasionally accurate, as I have to say, in most of the games I have won or lost, it was not the army, but the player who made the difference.

Now, having said that...well....um....there is a difference between "un-beatable" and "almost embarrassingly good for the points".

Really. Some of the units are almost silly good, Jaws? are you kidding? That made it past play testing?
Vendettas? Hydras? How many points? I can put three Russ' in a squadron? GW, you are just trying to get me to buy more expensive models aren't you?

I have won a lot of games and lost a lot of games, and again, yes, the most critical factor is the player; a terrible space wolves player is easier to beat than a very skilled marine player. So, most of the "L2P" comments while valid, do not always apply.

If I had to pick a good player with SW vs a good player with Necrons or Marines, the SW player is a LOT harder to beat.
To deny the army is better is well, denial.

Lets be honest, here, I love guard, I love my doom, I love the caestus, but some of the units in some armies are just way out of range.
Just so happens SW and Guard have a wee bit more than others...

Indeed some players are "tired of getting shot off the table", and those players are so passionate about it, they may not want to hear "stop playing like crap" - the truth does hurt.

Other players who play SW and Guard also get tired of being told "those armies are OP!", and they are passionate about it and get tired of hearing it. However, just like the poor players out there....there is a bit of truth in everything.
5 replies · active 747 weeks ago
I've never lost to space wolves or guard ever. So I don't see what the big deal is about these armies. They are good, but not broken by any means.
2 replies · active 747 weeks ago
Jaws is meh save Nids and even that is a stretch vs. the all-comer utility powers. Stormcaller in a Razor list comes to mind. Plus the pts spent on Runepriests and Rhinos and Hunter bodyguards could very easily be used instead fo more Fangs, Typhoons, etc.

Squadroning Russes is generally terrible.
Great post. Linked to it off my site. Still don't care for the spammability of the Space Wolves list, but you don't have to play against people who like to play that way if you don't want to.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
Evan Lacey's avatar

Evan Lacey · 747 weeks ago

The truth about why BA, SW, and IG are being called overpowered is their complete synergy with the way 5th Ed. 40k is played. Mech and MSU. Mainly, my main gripe are chimeras. They are way, way, way too cheap for what they get. Anyone who points out their 10 side armor ignores the fact that any guard player with half a brain will account for this and use terrain/vehicles to block them while creating a wall of AV12.

Indeed, i would argue that all of the imperium's transports are underpriced, just look at why mech is almost necessary now simply because for 35 points your squads become impenetrable until a 1/3 chance kills the vehicle. I play chaos, and from all my playtesting, kirby, DE are not overpowered. They hit hard, true, they work well with 5th ed, also true - however they die very quickly. The main counter to them is to simply weather the storm and pick them off one by one in the later turns. Now that's easier said then done, but they have their strengths and weaknesses like any army, and the player needs to account for both.
7 replies · active 747 weeks ago
Evan Lacey's avatar

Evan Lacey · 747 weeks ago

My point in the post above is about the fact that they are too hard to destroy when considering their point value in correlation with their ability to be a mobile fire base. Also, veteran's don't cease to be an issue. Any squad that can fit that many special and heavy weapons into them can't be ignored.
This is such a touchy topic, it gets over 9000 comments.
Look I have solid proof it's not just skill or random luck. Before the new IG codex came out, I was able to fight them with Eldar and BEAT them Vs an opponent I know is inferior . Now? Well with the new book especially at lower points (1250 or less) he can bring so many auto cannons it does not matter. My Eldar tanks? Dead. it's insane now many he can field (64!!!!) sure he'll only hit with 32 on average but that is a shit ton of shots!

Prior, I could beat him, well frankly every game (he's newish to the game). Yes, every game his skills might be improving but now Eldar Vs a well build IG list -- it's very difficult. Maybe it's cause I don't run a seer council. But IMO I should not have to (and at smaller point games those are harder to fit in).
3 replies · active 747 weeks ago
Warboss Stalin's avatar

Warboss Stalin · 747 weeks ago

In the end it does not matter...Orks can and do beat EVERYONE ...: )
Altough I agree with almost everything on the post, I really have to say that my main problem lies not with IG or SW, but with those Pesky Eldar.
I Play CSM, and that's challenging nowadays, I'll give you that. But like it was said above, IG and SW might be tough, but not unbeatable, now against Eldar, I always have the feeling that the best winning move is not to play against them at all and all those anti-your-game-re-roll-re-roll-again-I-win.

Yes, yes. Play better, or with a different army and I fully agree. I'm just curious about how Eldars are being seen nowadays...
Jara - That wasn't very solid at all.
but my orks do awesomely against both these armies ;-;
Can't believe I missed this post when it was actually made. Angry rants are the best kind of rant - hats off to this one.

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