More Hybrid Blood Angels

Monday, December 6, 2010

More Hybrid Blood Angels

Posted by Anonymous

From the comments in this thread, I thought I'd have a look at a blood angels hybrid list. This here is MKoopa's list, the one Kirby was talking about. I like the feel of it, but it's not my bag really.

As I said in my comment, I think Blood Angels are perfect contenders for hybrid lists. When comparing them to Space Wolves (the current gold standard let's say), I think BA are well equipped for contending. The most important thing, is we're not trying to do a SW hybrid list, they work in a very different way. Despite many people thinking Space Wolves are an assault army, I disagree, as they're USRs say, they are a counter assault army (I read an article on this a little while back, but remember exactly where, quite possibly YTTH, but I'm not 100% sure *and in the time i've been writing this, Stelek has actually posted another similar post, so probably there; It was me! Ages ago I did a comparison on SM armies and which one was the best for building an assault force...here). Blood Angels on the other hand are an assault army and therefore, we need something very different from them.

What do we need for a hybrid list then. Well the term hybrid relates to the way it's infantry are getting about really. This can include mech'd units, stationary/foot units, jump packs and also Dreadies add an extra summin summin. Space wolves' hybrid lists tend to be, mech'd marines, long fangs on foot and thunderwolf cavalry. 'Famous' Space Wolf hybrid lists also include scouts for that little bit of added disruption. Long fangs, despite being very similar to devs add that something extra with their ability to split fire and thunderwolf cavalry are obviously unique, but Blood Angels have many 'unique' possibilities of their own.

Looking at the FOC broadly let's have a look at some of our options.

HQ - As we're looking for something specific, we can count out any characters that need a list designed around them such as Dante and although Mephiston is a nasty piece of work, he's just too many points for filling part of the assault role. It will probably end up being a cheap slot in all honesty, but nothing is decided yet.

Elites - So many beautiful options. I'm looking at you Sanguinary Guard! There are a lot of other units that can fill their role however, so let's not count our chickens.

Troops - With one of the cheapest (and with buffs, arguably some of the best) troops in the game, it looks like it's going to be an easy choice. 6 Slots may however be a limiting factor here though as there are a few other options for us.

Fast Attack - This will be a tough one. At first glance, it's not a great section and doens't have the cheap as chips assault units such as TWC, but as I've said BA need to do things differently, so other options should work out just fine.

Heavy Support - I love devs who doesn't but with dreads, preds, stormravens and vindicators as options, they're not guaranteed a place just like everything else. Okay, maybe I was joking about vindicators. Maybe.

Having a play

Librarian - combi-melta - 110

Sanguinary Priest - 2 x combi-melta, lightning claw - 150

Sanguinary guard - Power fist - 210

Assault squad - melta, lightning claw - 125

Razorback - T-L heavy flamers - 20

Assault squad - melta, lightning claw - 125

Razorback - T-L heavy flamers - 20

Assault squad - melta, lightning claw - 125

Razorback - T-L heavy flamers - 20

Assault squad - melta, lightning claw - 125

Razorback - T-L heavy flamer - 20

Scouts - Sniper rifles, camo cloaks - 95

Vanguard veterans - Lightning claw, Power fist, SS x 3, 265

Baal predator - T-L Assault cannon - 115

Devastators - 3 x MLs - 120

2000

We have vehicles that aren't confused about what they're doing. They want and need to be in your opponents face. This means the real assault elements that are sheltering behind them aren't being held up. ALL of the units are serious threats. Mechanised units (except one) have a pair of melta weapons and a pair of power weapons. The real assault threats are geared differently and ready to rock and roll with pretty much anything.

I'm not totally happy with the list and it may evolve with time, so we shall see...

Comments (17)

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tzeentchling 76p · 748 weeks ago

I honestly think Mephiston is designed for hybrid armies. He takes the role that is usually played by, say, Wolf Lords on Wolves, in that he's a hard-as-nails combat beast that additionally supports the army. I'd want to change around the list to include him, which might be dropping the scouts and changing the VV into a second Sanguinary Guard squad.

Mephiston - 250

2 Sanguinary Priests, power weapons - 130
5 Sanguinary Guard, power fist - 210
5 Sanguinary Guard, power fist - 210

5 Assault squad, meltagun, lightning claw - 125
Razorback, heavy flamer - 20
5 Assault squad, meltagun, lightning claw - 125
Razorback, heavy flamer - 20
5 Assault squad, meltagun, lightning claw - 125
Razorback, heavy flamer - 20
5 Assault squad, meltagun, lightning claw - 125
Razorback, heavy flamer - 20

Baal Predator, TL-Assault Cannon - 115
Baal Predator, TL-Assault Cannon - 115

5 Devastators, 4 missiles - 130
5 Devastators, 4 missiles - 130
5 Devastators, 4 missiles - 130

Comes to 2000 exactly. Would like to up the lightning claws in the troop squads to fists, but they could even be dropped entirely and used for more melta weapons. Mephiston is really just a beast and I think combined with the two Sanguinary Guard squads, enemy units are going to have trouble, plus he can easily hide behind the advancing Razorbacks.

5 replies · active 748 weeks ago

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Redfinger61 21p · 748 weeks ago

The probelm with that is you would only be able to field 3 Baal's, putting 30+ jp marines behind that is going to be hard, and by only having three Baal's you are increasing their target prioroty to your opponent.

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tzeentchling 76p · 748 weeks ago

The Assault squads don't have jump packs and ride in the Razorbacks, plus there's only two Baals in the list. Only Mephiston and the SG are hiding behind the RBs and Baals, and 11 marines can easily do it.

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Redfinger61 21p · 748 weeks ago

oops, I had meant to reply to daybreak, sorry about that.

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Bro_Lo 82p · 748 weeks ago

The problem with Meph is that wings is unreliable. Blocking it, can leave him stuck in no-mans land or hold-up the whole list. And psy defence is something you should expect to come up against.

The ASM units do have CC ability, but you've lost a large punch without dual melta units. I'd drop a missile from each dev squad to find points for combis/IPs.

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tzeentchling 76p · 748 weeks ago

Worst case scenario, you're coming up against good psychic defense, jump a ASM squad out of their RB and into cover, and let Mephiston get in. You might be right about the dual-melta, though I'd rather lose the lightning claws for them instead.

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Daybreak · 748 weeks ago

I greatly enjoy the exploration of hybrid lists, so I'm happy to see more articles on them. Even if the articles just say what doesn't work, that is helpful.

Would it be possible to run hybrid *without* ASMs in Razorbacks? My mech list got lanced all to hell yesterday, so front AV11 isn't really appealing. I also find that if they get stunned or shaken, it's really easy for just regular marines to assault and pen with krak grenades. And the troops inside the box, even with a PW on the sergeant, are nothing special.

So how about an advancing wall of AV13 preds, followed closely behind by Jump marines and Sanguinary Guard?

(It may be nice to have two razorbacks just to have a Libby in one to get maximal range out of Shield, and a Priest in the other to get maximal range out of FC/FNP bubble. Maybe a Rhino with a 4 Melta Honour Guard and Libby instead?)

(I also like like like the use of Mephiston, as he's just a beast)

5 replies · active 748 weeks ago

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Daybreak · 748 weeks ago

We have an 1850 day coming up next week, and here's what I was thinking for it:

Mephiston250
HG w/ 3 Melta145
Rhino50
AC/HB Baal145
AC/HB Baal145
AC/HB Baal145
10 ASM, PF, 2 Melta235
10 ASM, PF, 2 Melta235
Sanguinary Guard w/ Banner230
Auto/LC Predator135
Auto/LC Predator135

I'd like to squeeze a Librarian in for Shield, but the AV 13 isn't as vulnerable as AV 11 so it's not critical. To go to 2000 I'd probably add the third Auto/LC Predator and a 4th Melta to the HG (and some dude gets a meltabomb), or perhaps a 5 ASM Las/Plas Razorback, and shave another 5 points off somewhere else.

Comments?

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Bro_Lo 82p · 748 weeks ago

trying to advance 25 models behind 3 Baals is going to be tough and limits the use of the Baals. My personal opinion is you don't have the CC punch. A single unit of SG and them some FC-less ASM makes me sadface. Meph is good... but as i said above, if he gets stopped, then you're on your ass and fighting an uphill battle.

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Daybreak · 748 weeks ago

Good point. He can easily be dropped for a Librarian into the Rhino and a pair of Jump Pack Priests. But that's more dudes to hide behind Baals.

Well, they don't have to stay right behind the tanks, they can hop along in cover / behind terrain etc.

Or go back to more mech and saturate the front lines with 4x 5 ASM w/ Heavy Flamer Razorbacks, but then I have virtually zero CC punch and am running an inferiour version of Koopa's list.

@Redfinger: I see what you're saying: the armour saturation from 4x Razors in addition to 3x Baal and 2x Pred would basically mean that the Razors wouldn't catch any AT fire, since the Baals are still the priority. I just don't think that advancing a meagre HF razorback with some useless dudes inside is that much of a threat.

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Bro_Lo 82p · 748 weeks ago

It would be completely possible to run hybrid lists with LRs or storm ravens, but it's not very MSU-y.

If you don't want razors, then you could take Preds and Baals with ASM and SG. In fact I'm sure a similar list has been posted... maybe Kirby will roll in and link again?

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Daybreak · 748 weeks ago

I'd like to see what anyone else has come up with involving Preds and Baals and ASM and SG. I know Kirby thinks highly of Koopa's hybrid list, but I'd like to see one without the AV 11 boxes

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TKE · 748 weeks ago

That hits on a problem I have had. You *really* want to have Shield for your wall of medium AV advancing into the foe's face, because if a squad gets left behind you lose a significant piece of the thrust...but at the same time, Mephiston IS a beast.

In addition, without FC, I'm not 100% on the usefulness of the Claws over Power Weapons. It's pretty much even, but if anyone wants to show me some tangible benefit, please, be my guest.

1 reply · active 748 weeks ago

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Kirby 118p · 748 weeks ago

I think we need to go back to your concept and flesh it out.

WIth regards to PW/LC; w/o FC the PW is better against T3 and they are the same against T4+. With FC, PW is better against T3/T4 and the LC is better against T5+ so it depends on what you want the unit to do. If for example you've got a bunch of Sang Guard, LC is better as it helps you out against tougher targets but if you've got a bunch of PFIsts (i.e. Termies), the PWeapon is a better idea.

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tzeentchling 76p · 748 weeks ago

Well, we could always take the above list and replace one Dev squad with a librarian. Cuts down on missiles though and long-range suppression/anti-tank fire, but I think that's the best way to go.

I'd also consider replacing the lightning claws on the sergeants with either combi-meltas or infernus pistols. I think that might be more useful than the 5-man squad with a LC.

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Redfinger61 21p · 748 weeks ago

I am not sure how I feel abot this list, the SG feel out of place to me, I would think that you would be deep striking the SG and VV, and using them as a a leap frog" unit, the VV HI's and ties something up, the following round SG assaults to finish it off...something like that? If that is the case I dont see that working so well.

I cant put my finger on it, and maybe it is my lack of experience, but something about this doesnt feel right....

1 reply · active 748 weeks ago

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Bro_Lo 82p · 748 weeks ago

the VVs and/or the SG can either start on the board or deep-strike. There are enough tanks to hide behind and enough targets for your opponent to not be overly concerned about them early on. With everything at LEAST 13" further down the table after turn one, you have turn 2 assaults without too much thought. Your dedicated assault teams don't need to start in reserve. Both squads pack a good number of power weapons, but the SS VVs mean that you DO have the option of anviling a unit. If you don't take out units such as TH/SS termies in an assault, you have a good chance of surviving combat with them. They CAN also be used for unit protection should they be needed to do so.