G'day AbusePuppy,
I tried to send you an email but I think my browser was naughty.
I would like to hear your thoughts on why the Scouts are *not* like Speeders, as per our small discussion on Space Wolf Grey that never came to fruition.
I think they have the exact same job of taking out Armour and give the gong to the Speeder in every category bar mêlée ~ of course :P
I am always open to being wrong and love being illuminated so I can get madder skeeyulz.
Cheers, Marshal Wilhelm
Came out of this discussion, which ended up rather circuitous, but (in my part of the conversation) brought up an interesting thought: how similar are Wolf Scouts and Speeders, anyways?
Both of them tote a single (usually) Meltagun. Both have the potential to arrive at inconvenient places, and both are fragile enough that they tend to be thrwaway units. However, in my opinion, they have grossly different roles in an army, not to mention occupying different slots (and thus competing with different units.)
Let's not be hasty, though; to be fair, I'll play Devil's Advocate, because it isn't hard to see how they could be considered the same. Let's start by looking at the basics of each unit.
Land Speeders are exactly like their Space Marine counterparts, save for the rest of the contents of the book and how they play into the army design (which is rather relevant, but not something we'll go into here.) They are fast, fragile, and in the iteration we're discussing, carry a Multimelta and Heavy Flamer, giving them good anti-armor and decent anti-infantry capacity. They function as a harassment unit, able to go nearly anywhere on the board and threatening a rather large area around them (12", nominal 24" range on the gun). They are, however, relatively easy to shoot down- however, as vehicles, it is quite possible for them survive a significant barrage of firepower and escape largely unhurt with only a bit of luck.
Wolf Scouts, on the other hand, differ significantly from their SM counterpart. They are Elites (and thus not scoring and in competition with some other very good units), but come with WS/BS 4, giving them a lot more potential.They can be giving any one special weapon- almost always a Meltagun and have a few other useful options, such as bringing a Wolf Guard along for a Combimelta, Power Fist, or Meltabombs. With their variety of special deployment rules, they can arrive almost anywhere on the battlefield, but once there they are stuck at standard infantry speeds. With Behind Enemy Lines it is possible for them to screw up and not come in from the right board edge, but they generally do what is needed.
So both of them, in terms of comparison, are melta delivery systems with reasonable, if not particularly great, survivability. Are they the same?
No. Most definitely not.
The Speeder is an on-board threat that pushes the enemy back- it can easily move forward and aim for early shots with double penetration. In a vehicle-heavy list, it adds saturation, relying on offering other targets in order to stay alive. It is mobile, able to go to whatever part of the battlefield we need it at on any given turn. It excels most in a mid-range shooting SW army as a way to wreck heavy tanks without sacrificing a squad of Grey Hunters. (Remember, SW doesn't get any other Melta- think about that next time your hear that Tacticals suck. Rushing your troop squads in the enemy's face and disembarking is a dangerous plan.)
The Scouts are an off-board threat, a potential unit to wreck anything the enemy leaves within 12" of their board edge. Unlike the Speeder, they push the enemy forward, since they don't want to hug the back edge for fear of being shot/assaulted. They are protected from attack by virtue of simply not being on the board until they arrive and do their job, but they are not a mobile unit, simply being very flexible in terms of arrival points. If there are two targets you want to kill on opposite sides of the board, Wolf Scouts can only kill one of them. Their main usage is to force the enemy into a "rock and hard place" situation when running an extremely aggressive SW force with TWC, etc.
Hopefully it should be clear that, while they are both able to reach many points on the table and carry a melta weapon, Wolf Scouts and Land Speeders are utterly unalike based on their own qualities alone- this is not even to mention the units they compete with (TWC, Lone Wolf, Dreadnought, Wolf Guard), which give them even more difference in application.
robdark1 · 732 weeks ago
Ian · 732 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 732 weeks ago
And yes, Speeders and Scouts are apples and oranges. They don't line up or compete for space in any meaningful way.
Marshal_Wilhelm 61p · 732 weeks ago
Why wouldn't I do that in 40K as well?
I don't have unlimited amounts of games to play test things. I have my previous experience and I can theoryhammer [usually reasonably well, but not always] what units should and should not be able to do.
However, nothing beats getting the men out and rolling dice on the table.
That is why YTTH and 3++ have an audience. Some dudes just have better gamer minds, more experience and/or play more games. Then when you add in the cadre of experienced dudes that visit here, you have the potential to be illuminated.
If I think, say, Scouts are lemons and never play them, I could be missing out on something that outside of *my* theoryhammer, could actually be a great unit and fun to play with.
So why wouldn't I ask the question and get someone, in this case AP, to prove the merits of Scouts to me?
I only have x amount of dollars and x amount of points. Better to measure twice and cut once, if you catch my drift.
I hope you had a Merry Christmas and will have a Happy New Year
:)
Ian · 732 weeks ago
What melta does C :S M have that C :S W doesn't?
Ian · 732 weeks ago
GWvsJohn 44p · 732 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 732 weeks ago
Alex · 732 weeks ago
Seriously, MM is heavy weapon, to get that full 24", you need to sit your ass in the spot, so they can't move and shoot, and now the SW player have to be dumb enough to move in range and say "oh crap, I can't reach that rhino with my melta gun, guess I'll just have to die now thanks to those dumb ass Long Fangs with their fail back up." Lets say we don't count the Long Fangs, but why would someone with a clear state of mine move in that MM radius without back up or some forms of shooting to take out their ride first? If they just want to suicide or play like a dumb ass, I guess that would qualify for SM wreck SW's ride most of the time statement.
I'm not trying to be an internet tough guy here because people can eye ball distance and avoid these kind of silly mistakes, everyone can do it with practice.
GWvsJohn 44p · 732 weeks ago
I think someone just realized the whole point of the rhino bunker tactical squad.
Alex · 732 weeks ago
GWvsJohn 44p · 732 weeks ago
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Tacticals are strictly better than GH, they just function very differently and Tacticals are better at claiming a piece of midfield for their own. GH are better at holding the backfield and seizing the forefield.
Marshal_Wilhelm 61p · 732 weeks ago
Greys *do not* have that threat bubble and so must twiddle their thumbs or rush in.
Thumb twiddling = Tac win
Rush in = Tac win
Is AP saying that it is one v one? No, it is army v army. However, it is gaining advantages with units that gives advantages with armies. I think you have blurred the two....? :P
abusepuppy 121p · 732 weeks ago
No, neither unit exists in a vacuum, but Tacticals directly contribute more to a shooting army.
Alex · 732 weeks ago
TheKingElessar 71p · 732 weeks ago
Alex · 732 weeks ago
Again, looking at this game at a 1 unit vs 1 unit perspective is fail.
Kirby 118p · 732 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 732 weeks ago
I'm not saying Tacticals are better than Grey Hunters, but they aren't necessarily worse, either. They serve different roles in their respective armies and they do different things.
TL Lascannon is a bad setup for a Razorback. LasPlas does the same thing, is still functional after a Weapon Destroyed hit, and costs the same.
Lascannons are range 48", by the way.
Sometimes disembarking is an acceptable choice, but you never want to do it unless you have to because it exposes you to fire, and that's bad.
Razorwolves is a different army from Wolves using Rhinos; the former is a shooting army, the latter is usually more inclined to close combat. Neither one is blatantly superior to the other, unless you subscribe to the BoLS Army of the Week thinking, I suppose.
Alex · 732 weeks ago
LOL, everyone knows Lascannons are 48". In most cases, it's only about 36" or less after deployment before you can melta me. Get to the point.
When you stated tac marine will take out GH's ride in most the time, are you comparing GH in razorback with heavy bolters? Sure as hell I don't know any GW player uses rhino in competitive gaming. Since you like GH in crap rides, I choose the next level of crap choice. That's the TL las.
Do I detect a change of mind? Under the right moment or circumstance, voluntarily disembarking is acceptable, Don't write shits like "everyone knows that voluntarily demeching yourself is a good idea!"
LOL, don't even compare to BOLS and their fail shits.
I think I done here.
Kirby 118p · 732 weeks ago
MM tac bunkers sit in midfield and help the SM player control it. You want to shut down a single MM tac squad? Go for it, the rest of the SM army has much better offensive output. It's all about board control for MM Tacs rather than midfield pushing and a buffer for the Grey Hunters to the rest of the army. Grey Hunters cannot camp midfield as well as Tacs because they lack a Heavy Weapon, have Ld8 (Ld9 equates to one special and one one-shot special) and are better used as MSU (where they can still get one special and one one-shot special). Whilst this makes them much better at damage potential and you create more targets for your opponent, killing 24 Marines over 4 squads is a lot different to killing 30 Marines over 3-4 squads.
Read this: http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/09/compari...
Oh and your last line should be "I think I'm done here." If you're going to be derogatory, do it properly please.
GWvsJohn 44p · 732 weeks ago
Wolf Scouts ability to disrupt/affect your opponents deployment is almost beyond value. They also come in (more or less) at your discretion giving you a huge threat radius and allowing you to focus fire an area of concern. They also bring a 1-2 of a double melta blast followup by a PF charge, Along that line, the squad always has a CbM/PF wolf guard attached.
Speeder by comparison project threat, but its predictable or extremely vulnerable. 12" move plus shoot is nice, but it limits where a deployed speeder can attack. DSing allows a wide threat, but the speeder is a big oddly shaped model and mishaps are a serious risk. Plus, in order to fire, a speeder necessarily exposes itself while a wolf scout squad has 3 ablative wounds and can hide much easier.
Wolf Scouts are among the best units in 40k IMO
Gx1080 · 732 weeks ago
Also, your Wolf Scouts pop a tank and then die. And in your configuration they are more expensive than a speeder. So yeah.
GWvsJohn 44p · 732 weeks ago
I still maintain scouts are superior.
Gx1080 · 732 weeks ago
KILLDOZA · 732 weeks ago
Gx1080 · 732 weeks ago
TheKingElessar 71p · 732 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 732 weeks ago
Gx1080 · 732 weeks ago
Marshal_Wilhelm 61p · 732 weeks ago
Whilst they might be different FOC slots, most people buy Wolf Guard, meaning you cannot have 3 Scouts. Speeders compete against TWC and Fenwolves [who function as extra wounds for the mighty ThunderLord] making it hard to have 3 distinct Speeders.
Also, if you aren't playing at 2K+ points value, then after you buy Fangs, Rune priests and Greys, you only have x amount of points left for these goodies. So they *are* competing for the spare points.
They both blow up tanks and have good deployment ability. DSing and BELing. They are not particularly survivable. Hence the comparo ;)
Marshal_Wilhelm 61p · 732 weeks ago
"Speeders are better than Scouts, imo. OBEL? Deepstrike thanks. Meltagun? Multi melta thanks. Number of attacks? Heavy flamer thanks.
Once the Speeder comes in, it is *far* more mobile and has that amazing advantage of having an AV. The only thing Scouts do better is being able to hide/lock-up a unit in mêlée"
Marshal_Wilhelm 61p · 732 weeks ago
"I'll tell you why Speeders are better.
Bang-for-buck, speed, survivability.
Whilst Mg, Pp and MB are all good things, they all lack range and the Mg is your only great anti-tank weapon.
If you can assault for the MBs, you are already within MELTA range. Sure it is not automatic, but very good. Then you assault the vehicle with your MB. The vehicle explodes and kills your 4+ save Scouts *sad face*
You are paying a whopping 15 points for the Pp. Yeah they are decent against rear AV, but that is a lot of points for the privilege. Then you only have the 4+ to save you from gets hot! I know guys who don't like plasma on 3+ Marines!
So MB and Pp, both expensive items, and less effective than the Mg, put the Scouts in danger just from using them. Bad enough you have to get close enough for the Mg, let only helping to kill your own men off with their own weapons.
The Mg, whilst a solid gun, is on Infantry. 6" MELTA + 6" move compared to 12" MELTA + 12" move. Are we even comparing the same fruit here? :)
When your Scouts have just assaulted a vehicle, they are in a delicious clump, whether or not the blow the vehicle or not. Guess what my shooty squad has as its special weapon? Flamer. Thanks for the bunch up, I appreciate the help :P
Okay, so the Scouts OBEL into the right position and don't end up on the other side of the table [1/6 chance of that happening and another 1/6 if I haven't deployed my tanks next to a short edge]
The Speeders don't have any worry of turning up in an irrelevant position.
What happens when you play Bloods and they just fast away from the edge but also away from your normal guys? The scouts are left running like those dogs with stumpy little legs, trying to catch up.
Anyway, back to the scouts turning up into the right position. They pop a tank. Then what? Your foe has his other firebase a long way away. D'oh!
Meanwhile the Speeder uses its 24" threat bubble to attack another vehicle.
We all know how Mech is great. Speeders comply to that philosophy. Sure it is AV10. But it is still AV. Bolters are hopeful and even when they do glance you, chances are it will just be a stunned and you can flat-out to *move-block* something. Meanwhile the scouts are dying.
If you are having regular success with your scouts, your foe knows they are coming, and you are still getting attacks against his Armour the turn you come in, maybe your foe needs to wise up a bit. It is much easier to counteract what the scouts will be doing because the are so much more *predictable*
Speeders have obvious targets, yes, and so are also predictable, but how can you really protect all of your tanks from something that can turn up anywhere, has a threat range of 24" and can boogy 24" to completely relocate? You can't. Unless your whole premise is around move-block and cramming a lá Tau.
If you are using scouts, enjoy using them and are having success with them, great. Don't stop using them. But you will not convince me they are as good as Speeders from what you have said. Hopefully that does not come across as rude. I am looking forwards to Abuse Puppy's counter. I am always open to being taught something.
**Scouts can assault Devs, etc. That is something the Speeder cannot do and so the scouts get full marks in that category."
Rupert40k 49p · 732 weeks ago
Nice article puppy :) x
Marshal_Wilhelm 61p · 732 weeks ago
However, I can see that the threat of the Scouts BELing and melta'ing your prize tank, therefore compelling the whole force to be 12" away from table edges and thus closer to the rest of the Wolves is a good thing.
Perhaps they ought to ignore the threat of the Scouts, deploy normally, suffer the one lost tank, if and when the Scouts turn up, and enjoy the extra 12" to fight the rest of the Wolves with?
Or deploy their guys within 1" of the edges, meaning the Scouts cannot get a meaningful shot on a tank....?
Because surely, buying a 100 point unit that fears your foe into deploying 12" closer to your mid-ranged army is a ridiculously good buy. So good, in fact, that the enemy is better off ignoring the perceived threat and only dealing with the on table reality of what the Scouts actually do, not what they might do. Then the army is in a better position blasting the daylights out of the regular Wolves, if they are a shooty list.
What happens when you might a non~ or lightly~Mech list?
BELing Scouts offer no great threat to Daemons, Jumpers, Bikes, all of whom can naturally get away from table edges.
Necrons naturally move into the midfield and Mg on foot are no real threat to Monoliths and cannot engage the Destroyers.
Against those armies, you just end up with second rate Greys, with less goodies, less armour and no wheels, if you deploy them on the table.
abusepuppy 121p · 732 weeks ago
If the enemy chooses to ignore the Scouts- which is certainly possible- then you're trading your small unit for something important of theirs, and they're spending time shooting the Scouts rather than your other units. (They may not be super-hard to kill, but with Ld9 and T4 they aren't going to just evaporate, either.)
Against DS/Scout/etc armies you use the Scouts as bubblewrap, infiltration defense, and all the other usual things. It's far from ideal, but they aren't worthless. Given that the point of such armies is to invalidate as much of the enemy's strategy as possible, it's not surprising that they do so to part of this one.
Marshal_Wilhelm 61p · 732 weeks ago
Omnomnomnom!
I have posted so many times in an effort to make it easier for others to respond to the points I am trying to get across. Hopefully it works :P
MC Tic Tac · 732 weeks ago
Works nicely so far for me.
Marshal_Wilhelm 61p · 732 weeks ago
omnomnomOW! my teeth!
robdark1 · 732 weeks ago