
I am seriously getting tired of seeing this sort of thing.
"Yeah, TH/SS are pretty good but it depends on your playstyle. In my group mostly we think they're kinda useless, since regular Terminators already have Power Fists and they get a gun as well. Isn't 5E all about cover saves?"
"Well sure mostly Pariahs are pretty bad, but it depends on your playstyle. Some people can do really well with them!"
"I know the so-called mathhammer says that vanilla Devastators with Lascannons aren't very good, but with my playstyle they really work. To each his own!"
"Rhinos may be a good way to move to objectives, but with my playstyle they aren't as useful, because I pick up the little figures and fly them around the battlefield yelling 'ZOOM! ZOOM! GO, MAH SPEHSS MAHRHEENS!' which can get them onto almost any objective pretty quick. It's all about the kind of army you run."
No. F&%# you all. Holes in all of you. Your "playstyle" does not invalidate the fundamental tactical, strategic, and numerical concepts of the game. Liking to assault does not change how often an Autocannon glances a Rhino. It does not change how hard (or easy) it is to contest an objective. It does not change the ability of a mobile army to defeat the opponent in detail. It is, at best, a subtle flavoring to the type of army you are most suited to run, nothing more.
Playstyles are a good way to choose which army to play. They are a good way to choose which build of an army best suits the things you enjoy doing. They do not rewrite the friggin' codex so that up is down and short is long. Some units are bad and will always be bad until the book is changed. Some units are good and will always be good until a new edition of the base book is released. It is only on the corner cases, the units that are on the edge of playable or are good but not great that change from army to army in how they rate against other choices. Your "playstyle" has nothing to do with that. A good army is a good army in the hands of any player, even if that player may not use it to its fullest due to inexperience or other factors.
If you like a unit, that is fine. You are allowed to like units even if they aren't good. I like Biovores, okay? And Ymgarl Genestealers, too. You don't have to pretend that you're picking optimal choices when in truth you're just picking the coolest models. And if someone comes along and demolishes your list on the internets and explains that it is bad and terrible and there are many, many ways to improve it and you don't have any real counter-arguments, don't just resort to "well, it fits my playstyle." F%$@ you, that's not an argument, that's a fallacy.
Alright, are we clear here? Playstyles govern the type of list you build. The type of list you build governs the choices you want for that list. The codex governs the choices available. Your playstyle touches upon which units are good in a list only in the most vaguely indirect way, in much the same way that Canada and China share are alike because they both border the Pacific Ocean.
Katie Drake · 744 weeks ago
Thud_ 39p · 744 weeks ago
VIC5 · 744 weeks ago
Nobody · 744 weeks ago
artemi7 78p · 744 weeks ago
And the response? "No, I like my way better, because it works for me. I posted my list and asked for help, but really I just wanted you to agree with me."
Well, why did you ask for help, then? Screw that.
Erwos · 744 weeks ago
VT2 79p · 744 weeks ago
Calperr · 744 weeks ago
ManusCelerDei 53p · 744 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 744 weeks ago
99% of the content on this site is entirely calm, rational, and peaceable. I don't feel bad about occasionally using an article to vent about something in the hobby that annoys me.
necroninja 36p · 744 weeks ago
gdmnw 50p · 744 weeks ago
My goat has been got. :D
Zjoekov 74p · 744 weeks ago
And to the guy above me (Nobody): Don't confuse the internet with the real life. Usually the 'hardcore competative' people on the internet are nice guys in real. You know why? They never whine about anything. They don't get frustrated when they lose etc, because they know what caused the loss. I would be much more afraid of the 'hardcore fluff' players. The kind of people who call you names because you play with a good list. The kind of people who don't appreciate the fact that you didn't take a colorfull mix of units into your army. The kind of people who say 'OMGZ you are so lucky!' all game long, because they don't understand how dice work at all.
Charlemagne · 744 weeks ago
The competitive types on 3++ are probably more reasonable 'cause the community doesn't really stand for bullshit, but you can't authoritatively claim that this site is a good sample for data collection.
Mostly I just identify as an 'informed casual' rather than competitive and I reject being labelled as a whiny fluff-bot just cause there are people who build their lists the way they imagine that things should be and then complain incessantly about losing. There are even cool people who build really fluffy armies, honestly. It's just a question of then accepting that you prolly won't win too much. (I've been tabled in every game v BA Jumpers with my Vanilla Hybrid. Doesn't bother me, 'cause this is how my homebrew chapter's 4th Company would deploy and I'm okay with that not quite being optimal.
My words are a little garbled cause it's nearly 1:30 AM and I'm coming off of several hours of Gamma World, but hopefully my meaning is somewhat legible.
Zjoekov 74p · 744 weeks ago
Also note the words 'usually' and 'hardcore competative'. With the first one I mean that it doesn't apply for everybody (there are competative jerks) and with the 2nd one I mean people who really understand this game. You also got people who consider themself competative gamers just because they try really hard to win all the time, without actually knowing what they do...
Charlemagne · 744 weeks ago
And just considering yourself competitive doesn't make someone competitive (in my eyes). No more than considering yourself a tournament winner makes you one unless you win some tournaments. If someone just likes to think of themselves as competitive while stumbling blindly through their games? They're kinda pathetic ... and probably do whine horribly when they lose.
It's just the authoritative tone behind your words, really. You're building up the competitive and knocking down the more casual players (albeit those who are really fucking invested in their plastic bitz, but still). Doesn't sit too well with me, mostly because I myself aren't really competitive.
(Then again, I read 3++ mostly for teh amusements. What would I know? ;3)
GreyICE · 744 weeks ago
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/competitiv...
The first is the person who 'has to win.' He pitches a fit when he loses. He yells at the DM when his character dies in D&D. He'll deliberately choose games other people don't know how to play when the video games come out, or quit when he's losing. He turns anything into a competition, he can't stand to lose. This is definition three (3), at the site above.
The second is the meaning of the word that is 'well suited for competition.' Definition two (2). Competitive lists are well suited to compete. Players who develop those lists, want to win, yes. But you can't develop those lists if you 'can't lose.' You don't find interesting ideas or interesting lines of play when you are convinced that you have to be the best. There are some competitive people who can't stand to lose. Competitors though? The people who lose and they figure out why they lost and what they can do to get better? These are the people who are the best. Every loss teaches them more about why they lost, and makes it harder to beat them again. Every win still teaches them about how to win and what they still did wrong.
The funny part? The competitive people (3) hate the competitors (2). They LOATH them. The competitors are nearly impossible for them to beat (since each loss makes the competitive person angry and miserable, rather than giving them an opportunity to reflect on why they lost and how to improve). And the competitors don't get personally injured by these losses that destroy the competitive people.
The competitive people (3)? These are the people you find on Warseer, complaining about cheesy WAAC and insisting that the rules be changed until they can win. Competitors? They just steadily improve.
VT2 79p · 744 weeks ago
Charlemagne · 744 weeks ago
Cool story, bro.
VT2 79p · 744 weeks ago
Archnomad 70p · 744 weeks ago
Redwidow · 744 weeks ago
The quotes you gave are taken out of context and most likely sarcastic summations of what you consider annoying. I believe that it is very likely that the intent of the people you are criticizing is to discuss their preferences and not to debate statistics. If that is the case, your rant is as valid as my saying that "I am sick and tired of power gamers and rules lawyers over analyzing my beer and pretzel game." or "F*@& everyone who chooses their models for statistics instead of aesthetics!"
I also am quite curious as to why you have a blog or read other blogs if you are so close minded to the opinions and experiences of others??
Erwos · 744 weeks ago
"Playstyles are a good way to choose which army to play. They are a good way to choose which build of an army best suits the things you enjoy doing. They do not rewrite the friggin' codex so that up is down and short is long. Some units are bad and will always be bad until the book is changed."
Your playstyle, at best, will influence your choice of what GOOD units to bring. With the exception of some very extreme builds (Fatecrusher, Epidemius, etc.), units just do not go from crap to awesome because you have a certain playstyle.
Besides, if you're a gunline player who somehow brought a TH/SS squad in an LR, and then you just let them sit there doing nothing all game because "lolz I play a static gunline", the problem is not that the TH/SS squad couldn't help you, it's that you suck as a player (both in list building and tactics).
artemi7 78p · 744 weeks ago
I would say that having a deterrent to CC isn't a bad thing at all for a gunline.
Erwos · 744 weeks ago
artemi7 78p · 744 weeks ago
Even in that situation where you've accidentally taken a fully kitted out TH/SS Termie squad with accompanying Land Raider transport (that is somehow of the Phobos pattern and not one of the two more normal choices), you can still use the Termies as bubblewrap and the LR itself as a tough, long range scoring bunker with the bolter portion of combat squad or minimum cost Scout choice.
If you don't even attempt to use the choice, it is true that they are going to be terrible. No rule is telling you that you MUST attempt to win the game. If you never move, never shoot, and never charge, you aren't actually breaking any game rules. However, if you don't attempt to play the game, then yes, even a Baneblade that somehow wanders into a Combat Patrol game is gonna loose to someone who scores a single objective.
You don't, however, get to say that you lost because the super heavy tank is a bad unit. You lost because you were a jerk who refused to play.
Erwos · 744 weeks ago
Second, I'd like to add that some people confuse "play style" with "certain units get better as you take more of them" (bikes coming to mind). The fact that units now have support is a feature of your list, not your play style (or, at least, it shouldn't be).
And I totally agree that every unit in a list does not need to be uber-competitive... just don't act surprised when people on the interwebz notice this and call it out. If you want advice on your army, expect it to be in the realm of "how hard can we make this army using your general unit choices and play style?".
ManusCelerDei 53p · 744 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 744 weeks ago
KILLDOZA · 744 weeks ago
Katie Drake · 744 weeks ago
Anonissecretyo · 726 weeks ago
And yes I bumped for that
abusepuppy 121p · 744 weeks ago
Warboss Stalin · 744 weeks ago
Guest · 744 weeks ago
Rangerrob · 744 weeks ago
What about themed armies? Seems pretty close to "playstyle". You gonna go off on them too? If someone wants to have fun with a unit that may not be all that great...Why hack on them?
Their "Playstyle" defense may be just a cover for "I can't afford all those new fancy units." Or an " I don't want to play the flavor of the month, I'd rather have a unique force." Chances are these folks are not looking for an assessment of their army. In fact they might know they are handicapping themselves with sub-optimal choices. An know that if they win with that force...the victory will be that much sweeter.
Me, I'm just playing to have fun. So and yes I play with a not so common army. http://mordian95thrifles.blogspot.com/
Von · 744 weeks ago
There is definitely no shame in not being able to afford the New Hawtness (my declining success at competitive Warmachine since the re-release will attest to that), but again, there's a difference between knowing that something is a staple and choosing not to spend money on it, and choosing to believe that it's not a staple just because it happens to be expensive. I know that Black Guard are a very good Dark Elf infantry unit, and they don't stop being very good just because I don't have fifty quid to spend on them. That said, I can see why people don't want to admit that they're not First World enough to spend silly money on the best toy soldiers: after all, too many of us think that disposable income = status, and it's not easy to say "actually, this hobby is too rich for me."
<a> <a href="http://;http://yearoffrugalgaming.blogspot.com" target="_blank">;http://yearoffrugalgaming.blogspot.com
Von · 744 weeks ago
yearoffrugalgaming.blogspot.com
necroninja 36p · 744 weeks ago
Your BUILD might do that, but not your playstyle.
Warboss Stalin · 744 weeks ago
ManusCelerDei 53p · 744 weeks ago
:(
chumbalaya 79p · 744 weeks ago
TheKingElessar 71p · 744 weeks ago
Fuzzy · 695 weeks ago
Warboss Stalin · 744 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 744 weeks ago
Warboss Stalin · 744 weeks ago
TheKingElessar 71p · 744 weeks ago
VT2 79p · 744 weeks ago
Calperr · 744 weeks ago
Warboss Stalin · 744 weeks ago
Nikephoros · 744 weeks ago
pringles978 · 744 weeks ago
Warboss Stalin · 744 weeks ago
Ian · 744 weeks ago
Polymorphine · 744 weeks ago
chumbalaya 79p · 744 weeks ago
TheKingElessar 71p · 744 weeks ago
Dingareth · 744 weeks ago
nfluger 60p · 744 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 744 weeks ago
nfluger 60p · 744 weeks ago
Fuzzy · 695 weeks ago
willydstyle · 744 weeks ago
Erwos · 744 weeks ago
Brendan · 744 weeks ago
Erwos · 744 weeks ago
The "well, it's my play style" crowd cannot accept that the problem is that they're not good competitive players, and probably never will be until they can learn to make comparative value judgments about units, or understand that being able to win with a crap army is not the same thing as validating that army's potential.
Brendan · 744 weeks ago
It seems like your argument is that everyone should play every unit in the same manner, and optimize its use so that a good unit is good for every player, this is hardly the case.
I agree that the playstyle argument is sometimes a cop out in arguments about units, and their inherent worth. Synergy within a list, and within a persons tactics, however, can make certain units perform better for some people than for others.
Brendan · 744 weeks ago
This is basically where I stand I suppose, horrible units are always horrible, I cannot see anyone arguing that the Pyrovore is really benefiting from their playstyle, or that it is an awsome unit. Great units are not always great. Hence why they might fall outside the build you choose in a certain codex, that suits your "playstyle" (the things you tend to do).
Again I would never say TH/SS termies are a bad unit. Only that they could be a "BAD choice" in a given circumstance to fill a given role.
Jabra · 744 weeks ago
The irony :D
Katie Drake · 744 weeks ago
Gx1080 · 744 weeks ago
Man up and say that you like or dislike X unit. I don't see the need to justify it.
pimpdaddyork · 744 weeks ago
Von · 744 weeks ago
CalPerr · 744 weeks ago
Rupert40k 49p · 744 weeks ago
Von · 744 weeks ago
Marshal_Wilhelm 61p · 744 weeks ago
On the unit thing,the problem is that Johnny Hopeful does use Ymgarls, has had success with them and then when you tell him they are not a good unit, gets dirty with you. That is part of the real problem.
"They work for me, so you can't tell me they're bad."
My family had a little Mazda 323 '81. At the lights, it was given the berries and it often raced away, beating the other cars. You or I would recognise that the car is light and perhaps the other cars were not be driven hard. Johnny Hopeful would believe that the little buzz box was indeed a quick car and gets offended when you tell him otherwise.
Was the Maz a good and faithful servant whilst we had it? Yes it was. Was the Maz ever quick? Not really and that is the problem for Johnny Hopeful. He just cannot see things scientifically.
Von · 744 weeks ago
pringles978 · 744 weeks ago
TheAngelKing47 · 744 weeks ago
On that note, I always thought play style determined things like is your army shooty? assaulty? crazy suicidal?
Marshal_Wilhelm 61p · 744 weeks ago
In fear of the USA invading them.
Love the colour red.
Gets snow in the winter.
I'm surprised people don't confuse those two countries more often :P
Kirby 118p · 744 weeks ago
pringles suck · 744 weeks ago
TheKingElessar 71p · 744 weeks ago
Tingle me Pringles · 744 weeks ago
VT2 79p · 744 weeks ago
What you're thinking of is taking a subpar army, and using it to beat face on n00bs, which is fine - I do that sometimes, too. Still doesn't make my ironclads, chaptermaster, vanilla vanguard, vanilla honor guard, or 100% pure foot grey knights 'good.'
My lascannons won't be useless, silly person. I'll merely be shooting them against your infantry instead, scoring almost guaranteed kills, while you flail around with your gazillion lasguns, that are indeed rendered useless by the presence of even trukkz.
Pringly-tingly · 744 weeks ago
Bro_Lo 82p · 744 weeks ago
Good luck with the tabling.
Bro_Lo 82p · 744 weeks ago
A well reasoned argument would assume one would know how to use the list he/she has created/copied.
And what you're talking about is tailoring. Hurray for you!
pringles978 · 744 weeks ago
pringles978 · 744 weeks ago
Mmm Pringles! · 744 weeks ago
Bro_Lo 82p · 744 weeks ago
Your playstyle influences the list you take and the decisions you make. Your ability lays out the options open to be decided upon. Playstyles do not in any way influence the quality of a unit. It may influence the way in which you use the unit like you said, but what AP is getting at is correct, playstyles are not truly unique. You not being able to use a unit doesn't make them bad, it makes you bad with them.
Good units don't auto-win games and you'll never be able to polish a turd.
AmazinglyHonest · 739 weeks ago
That isn't playstyle, that's list-building. Do you people that are talking negatively of the original poster even fucking understand what the difference between playstyle, strategy, tactics, and list-building is?