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Wednesday, December 29, 2010

Your Playstyle is Not a Unique and Special Flower



I am seriously getting tired of seeing this sort of thing.

"Yeah, TH/SS are pretty good but it depends on your playstyle. In my group mostly we think they're kinda useless, since regular Terminators already have Power Fists and they get a gun as well. Isn't 5E all about cover saves?"

"Well sure mostly Pariahs are pretty bad, but it depends on your playstyle. Some people can do really well with them!"

"I know the so-called mathhammer says that vanilla Devastators with Lascannons aren't very good, but with my playstyle they really work. To each his own!"

"Rhinos may be a good way to move to objectives, but with my playstyle they aren't as useful, because I pick up the little figures and fly them around the battlefield yelling 'ZOOM! ZOOM! GO, MAH SPEHSS MAHRHEENS!' which can get them onto almost any objective pretty quick. It's all about the kind of army you run."

No. F&%# you all. Holes in all of you. Your "playstyle" does not invalidate the fundamental tactical, strategic, and numerical concepts of the game. Liking to assault does not change how often an Autocannon glances a Rhino. It does not change how hard (or easy) it is to contest an objective. It does not change the ability of a mobile army to defeat the opponent in detail. It is, at best, a subtle flavoring to the type of army you are most suited to run, nothing more.

Playstyles are a good way to choose which army to play. They are a good way to choose which build of an army best suits the things you enjoy doing. They do not rewrite the friggin' codex so that up is down and short is long. Some units are bad and will always be bad until the book is changed. Some units are good and will always be good until a new edition of the base book is released. It is only on the corner cases, the units that are on the edge of playable or are good but not great that change from army to army in how they rate against other choices. Your "playstyle" has nothing to do with that. A good army is a good army in the hands of any player, even if that player may not use it to its fullest due to inexperience or other factors.

If you like a unit, that is fine. You are allowed to like units even if they aren't good. I like Biovores, okay? And Ymgarl Genestealers, too. You don't have to pretend that you're picking optimal choices when in truth you're just picking the coolest models. And if someone comes along and demolishes your list on the internets and explains that it is bad and terrible and there are many, many ways to improve it and you don't have any real counter-arguments, don't just resort to "well, it fits my playstyle." F%$@ you, that's not an argument, that's a fallacy.

Alright, are we clear here? Playstyles govern the type of list you build. The type of list you build governs the choices you want for that list. The codex governs the choices available. Your playstyle touches upon which units are good in a list only in the most vaguely indirect way, in much the same way that Canada and China share are alike because they both border the Pacific Ocean.

Comments (95)

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Katie Drake's avatar

Katie Drake · 744 weeks ago

Good post, but I'm not sure I like Canada being compared to China. ;)
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
I'm not so sure I like China being compared to Canada.
Truth. And I agree with Katie. :P
You could have made your point without being so rude. If most players of 40K have your attitude I may have to rethink getting into it.
8 replies · active 744 weeks ago
The problem here is that people are being just as rude. You go through all the trouble of trying to help someone on an internet forum somewhere, typing a list critique on something they built, explaining why some choices are better picks then others.

And the response? "No, I like my way better, because it works for me. I posted my list and asked for help, but really I just wanted you to agree with me."

Well, why did you ask for help, then? Screw that.
This is a pet peeve of mine on Warseer. Some people just want to be told they're awesome, even when the list is trash by any standard.
One medal goes to this person.
You just summed up the whole reason I stopped frequenting DakkaDakka.
Turbo Trolling !
It's labeled "nerdrage" for a reason.

99% of the content on this site is entirely calm, rational, and peaceable. I don't feel bad about occasionally using an article to vent about something in the hobby that annoys me.
Meh. I spend virtually none of my time on 40k forums (about an hour a day on BLOGS, but not on forums), and I can still see this blowup being justified. Logical fallacies get my goat too.
Hilarious. Isn't it illogical to criticise something you state you have little awareness of, as you don't peruse their contents?

My goat has been got. :D
I love little articles like these. It's not like he's getting really personal. Either way his points (which I fully agree with) are well formulated.

And to the guy above me (Nobody): Don't confuse the internet with the real life. Usually the 'hardcore competative' people on the internet are nice guys in real. You know why? They never whine about anything. They don't get frustrated when they lose etc, because they know what caused the loss. I would be much more afraid of the 'hardcore fluff' players. The kind of people who call you names because you play with a good list. The kind of people who don't appreciate the fact that you didn't take a colorfull mix of units into your army. The kind of people who say 'OMGZ you are so lucky!' all game long, because they don't understand how dice work at all.
7 replies · active 744 weeks ago
Charlemagne's avatar

Charlemagne · 744 weeks ago

Can't say I approve of this summary. A lot of the power gamers I've known will whine when they lose and the casual players I know are all cool to hang out with.

The competitive types on 3++ are probably more reasonable 'cause the community doesn't really stand for bullshit, but you can't authoritatively claim that this site is a good sample for data collection.

Mostly I just identify as an 'informed casual' rather than competitive and I reject being labelled as a whiny fluff-bot just cause there are people who build their lists the way they imagine that things should be and then complain incessantly about losing. There are even cool people who build really fluffy armies, honestly. It's just a question of then accepting that you prolly won't win too much. (I've been tabled in every game v BA Jumpers with my Vanilla Hybrid. Doesn't bother me, 'cause this is how my homebrew chapter's 4th Company would deploy and I'm okay with that not quite being optimal.

My words are a little garbled cause it's nearly 1:30 AM and I'm coming off of several hours of Gamma World, but hopefully my meaning is somewhat legible.
Well it wasn't meant as an extensive summary covering the whole spectrum of 40k player you know. It was in reaction to the guy who drawed conclusions about real life behaviour by reading an article... I could probably write an article about general misconceptions concerning attitude etc and maybe I will.
Also note the words 'usually' and 'hardcore competative'. With the first one I mean that it doesn't apply for everybody (there are competative jerks) and with the 2nd one I mean people who really understand this game. You also got people who consider themself competative gamers just because they try really hard to win all the time, without actually knowing what they do...
Charlemagne's avatar

Charlemagne · 744 weeks ago

Yeah, I wasn't doing too well. Something about 1:30 and the preceding hours of Gamma World must've taken me out of the 40k blogosphere mindset ...

And just considering yourself competitive doesn't make someone competitive (in my eyes). No more than considering yourself a tournament winner makes you one unless you win some tournaments. If someone just likes to think of themselves as competitive while stumbling blindly through their games? They're kinda pathetic ... and probably do whine horribly when they lose.

It's just the authoritative tone behind your words, really. You're building up the competitive and knocking down the more casual players (albeit those who are really fucking invested in their plastic bitz, but still). Doesn't sit too well with me, mostly because I myself aren't really competitive.

(Then again, I read 3++ mostly for teh amusements. What would I know? ;3)
There's a lot of equivocation on the internet about this subject. The problem is that there's two relevant meanings of the word competitive.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/competitiv...

The first is the person who 'has to win.' He pitches a fit when he loses. He yells at the DM when his character dies in D&D. He'll deliberately choose games other people don't know how to play when the video games come out, or quit when he's losing. He turns anything into a competition, he can't stand to lose. This is definition three (3), at the site above.

The second is the meaning of the word that is 'well suited for competition.' Definition two (2). Competitive lists are well suited to compete. Players who develop those lists, want to win, yes. But you can't develop those lists if you 'can't lose.' You don't find interesting ideas or interesting lines of play when you are convinced that you have to be the best. There are some competitive people who can't stand to lose. Competitors though? The people who lose and they figure out why they lost and what they can do to get better? These are the people who are the best. Every loss teaches them more about why they lost, and makes it harder to beat them again. Every win still teaches them about how to win and what they still did wrong.

The funny part? The competitive people (3) hate the competitors (2). They LOATH them. The competitors are nearly impossible for them to beat (since each loss makes the competitive person angry and miserable, rather than giving them an opportunity to reflect on why they lost and how to improve). And the competitors don't get personally injured by these losses that destroy the competitive people.

The competitive people (3)? These are the people you find on Warseer, complaining about cheesy WAAC and insisting that the rules be changed until they can win. Competitors? They just steadily improve.
The losers are always the loudest.
Charlemagne's avatar

Charlemagne · 744 weeks ago

Your old win/loss binary nonsense?

Cool story, bro.
It'd held true this far.
This gave me a good laugh. Very true as well. Especially cause I got into this argument last week.
Redwidow's avatar

Redwidow · 744 weeks ago

This whole article is just moody crap! Though I will agree that play style does not change the statistical probability of a particular unit being successful when used for it's intended purpose, play style does determine usefulness of this same unit to an individual player. For example, TH/SS terminators are undoubtedly good in close combat but just as undoubtedly useless to a player who prefers to play a stationary gun line. (obviously a gun line player would get more use from a lascannon devastator squad)
The quotes you gave are taken out of context and most likely sarcastic summations of what you consider annoying. I believe that it is very likely that the intent of the people you are criticizing is to discuss their preferences and not to debate statistics. If that is the case, your rant is as valid as my saying that "I am sick and tired of power gamers and rules lawyers over analyzing my beer and pretzel game." or "F*@& everyone who chooses their models for statistics instead of aesthetics!"
I also am quite curious as to why you have a blog or read other blogs if you are so close minded to the opinions and experiences of others??
4 replies · active less than 1 minute ago
Did you read the article? He addresses this head on.

"Playstyles are a good way to choose which army to play. They are a good way to choose which build of an army best suits the things you enjoy doing. They do not rewrite the friggin' codex so that up is down and short is long. Some units are bad and will always be bad until the book is changed."

Your playstyle, at best, will influence your choice of what GOOD units to bring. With the exception of some very extreme builds (Fatecrusher, Epidemius, etc.), units just do not go from crap to awesome because you have a certain playstyle.

Besides, if you're a gunline player who somehow brought a TH/SS squad in an LR, and then you just let them sit there doing nothing all game because "lolz I play a static gunline", the problem is not that the TH/SS squad couldn't help you, it's that you suck as a player (both in list building and tactics).
Forgive me for being wrong, but isn't standing around and not doing anything exactally what TH/SS Termies do when you purchase a Thunder Bubble? Just them being there is helping your gunline by either A)projecting a comforting wall of rock hard 3" wide 'cannot move within 1" of an enemy model' bubbles, or B ) bailing you units out when they do get sacked.

I would say that having a deterrent to CC isn't a bad thing at all for a gunline.
That would be doing something. Throwing them in an empty corner and using the LR's lascannons would be doing nothing.
I'm.... not sure if you are agreeing with me or not. If you are, you can ignore this next bit. If you aren't, however...

Even in that situation where you've accidentally taken a fully kitted out TH/SS Termie squad with accompanying Land Raider transport (that is somehow of the Phobos pattern and not one of the two more normal choices), you can still use the Termies as bubblewrap and the LR itself as a tough, long range scoring bunker with the bolter portion of combat squad or minimum cost Scout choice.

If you don't even attempt to use the choice, it is true that they are going to be terrible. No rule is telling you that you MUST attempt to win the game. If you never move, never shoot, and never charge, you aren't actually breaking any game rules. However, if you don't attempt to play the game, then yes, even a Baneblade that somehow wanders into a Combat Patrol game is gonna loose to someone who scores a single objective.

You don't, however, get to say that you lost because the super heavy tank is a bad unit. You lost because you were a jerk who refused to play.
First of all, that picture is, um, wow.

Second, I'd like to add that some people confuse "play style" with "certain units get better as you take more of them" (bikes coming to mind). The fact that units now have support is a feature of your list, not your play style (or, at least, it shouldn't be).

And I totally agree that every unit in a list does not need to be uber-competitive... just don't act surprised when people on the interwebz notice this and call it out. If you want advice on your army, expect it to be in the realm of "how hard can we make this army using your general unit choices and play style?".
7 replies · active 744 weeks ago
Yeah, as it turns out, there is some pretty weird shit floating around on the internets related to 40K. Be glad Kirb won't let me go past PG13 with stuff.
Damn /tg/
Katie Drake's avatar

Katie Drake · 744 weeks ago

My thoughts exactly.
Anonissecretyo's avatar

Anonissecretyo · 726 weeks ago

My thoughts were as follows: Rules one and two.
And yes I bumped for that
/tg. is the repository. DeviantArt is the source.
Warboss Stalin's avatar

Warboss Stalin · 744 weeks ago

Kicking the Emperor's War-Whores in the bolter-basket...yeah that's rough....
Bravo.
Dude...put down the coffee and back away.

What about themed armies? Seems pretty close to "playstyle". You gonna go off on them too? If someone wants to have fun with a unit that may not be all that great...Why hack on them?

Their "Playstyle" defense may be just a cover for "I can't afford all those new fancy units." Or an " I don't want to play the flavor of the month, I'd rather have a unique force." Chances are these folks are not looking for an assessment of their army. In fact they might know they are handicapping themselves with sub-optimal choices. An know that if they win with that force...the victory will be that much sweeter.

Me, I'm just playing to have fun. So and yes I play with a not so common army. http://mordian95thrifles.blogspot.com/
2 replies · active less than 1 minute ago
I don't think there's any shame in wanting to play things other than the Official Best At Everything, but accepting that you are doing so by choice (like you) is a very different case of affairs from pretending that your sub-optimal choices are somehow better, in defiance of observable evidence. What rankles is the refuge in denial, the refusal to say "indeed, thunder hammers with storm shields are superior, but I happen to like lightning claws more for X reason that has nothing to do with tactical efficiency, and that's the end of that."

There is definitely no shame in not being able to afford the New Hawtness (my declining success at competitive Warmachine since the re-release will attest to that), but again, there's a difference between knowing that something is a staple and choosing not to spend money on it, and choosing to believe that it's not a staple just because it happens to be expensive. I know that Black Guard are a very good Dark Elf infantry unit, and they don't stop being very good just because I don't have fifty quid to spend on them. That said, I can see why people don't want to admit that they're not First World enough to spend silly money on the best toy soldiers: after all, too many of us think that disposable income = status, and it's not easy to say "actually, this hobby is too rich for me."

<a&gt <a href="http://;http://yearoffrugalgaming.blogspot.com" target="_blank">;http://yearoffrugalgaming.blogspot.com
Botched that stylish ending a bit - curses!

yearoffrugalgaming.blogspot.com
If they're using Playstyle to cover for another reason, just say the other reason. There's no reason to say that your playstyle makes units good.

Your BUILD might do that, but not your playstyle.
Warboss Stalin's avatar

Warboss Stalin · 744 weeks ago

Just another useless rant. Really, do you feel better now?
14 replies · active 695 weeks ago
Shouldnt you and Brent be waving dicks somewhere?
:(
Just another useless post. Really, do you feel better now?
This post is useless too! Oh noes! Trolling the troll...
Weren't you the one who insulted eldar for not being enough psyker. Their just a bit old and can be seriously competitive. Trust me even my new necrons have been tabled
Warboss Stalin's avatar

Warboss Stalin · 744 weeks ago

well, yeah...having a go @ the pink clique...what could be better for the Season?
I do, actually, thanks for asking. How are you doing?
Warboss Stalin's avatar

Warboss Stalin · 744 weeks ago

Pretty good myself. You going to Adeptacon?
Thought fragment, consider revising.
Go back to BALS.
Aaww come on. Those guys are fun.
Warboss Stalin's avatar

Warboss Stalin · 744 weeks ago

Relax, thresher. ...it WAS just a rant. AbusePuppy is usually a fun read. But then, a spade is a spade and no issues labeling it so.
I want to say something in this thread so badly.
pringles978's avatar

pringles978 · 744 weeks ago

did you get bored giving brent grief or something?
Warboss Stalin's avatar

Warboss Stalin · 744 weeks ago

Bad master! It burns us with that name....
Excellent rebuttal. This statement always gets my goat too, but I never really came up with a good argument against it.
Polymorphine's avatar

Polymorphine · 744 weeks ago

Lovin the replies so far. Keep this up and Dethtron will notice. FNIF material in the making...
Like
This post is bleeding excellent. I urge you to submit it to the HoP, so even more people read it. :)
Great article, I feel like this should be stickied at the top of Warseer's "tactics" board. That said, the responses are just as entertaining as the article itself.
My playstyle invalidates your argument.
3 replies · active 695 weeks ago
People who play orks don't have any style (or class.) BAM! Argument invalidated! Call the Sister Hospitalar, 'cause we've got a case of MELTA BURN!
Unless they have dreadmob. Then a bit of style, for not following Thraka.
willydstyle's avatar

willydstyle · 744 weeks ago

I would even go so far as to say that "playstyle" lacks specificity to the point that it is nearly meaningless.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
I've always interpreted it as a general recognition of what tactics you're good at executing. For instance, I have trouble timing Rhino rushes correctly, but I do tend to be very good at blocking. Ergo, my play style is to use blockers to slow down the enemy and get them out of their transports, and then use long-range large blasts to clean up. This would be as opposed to a 'zerker rush or something.
I think the crux of the argument is this: Playstyle does not make units good or bad, for the general populus. Your Playstyle may make units better or worse for you. For example, I run a bike army with good success. I have lent the same army to other people, who proceed to use it wrong and they think it is horrible. This comes from not understanding how best to utilize certain units. Take the TH/SS termies, if one took them in your list and had them stand around, and not assault, they won't do well. This does not make them a bad unit. It makes them bad for you, and the purpose you are using them for.
3 replies · active 744 weeks ago
I disagree. The TH/SS terminators are still great in your scenario, it's just that you're terribad at using them.

The "well, it's my play style" crowd cannot accept that the problem is that they're not good competitive players, and probably never will be until they can learn to make comparative value judgments about units, or understand that being able to win with a crap army is not the same thing as validating that army's potential.
Well some one needs work on reading comprehension. I flat out said that it did not make them a bad unit, in my post, and that I would be using them wrong , is without question. It still holds that they won't perform well. There are plenty of decent to good players that are not good with every type of army. That army may not fit their insticts. I think that what is missed sometimes is that just because something is a good unit, does not make it a good fit in every list. Again I play a fast bike army, TH/SS termies would not be a great fit in that list. I agree that wining with suboptimal units does not make those units good, but it does make those units better for that player than they might be for another player.

It seems like your argument is that everyone should play every unit in the same manner, and optimize its use so that a good unit is good for every player, this is hardly the case.

I agree that the playstyle argument is sometimes a cop out in arguments about units, and their inherent worth. Synergy within a list, and within a persons tactics, however, can make certain units perform better for some people than for others.
"Playstyles are a good way to choose which army to play. They are a good way to choose which build of an army best suits the things you enjoy doing."

This is basically where I stand I suppose, horrible units are always horrible, I cannot see anyone arguing that the Pyrovore is really benefiting from their playstyle, or that it is an awsome unit. Great units are not always great. Hence why they might fall outside the build you choose in a certain codex, that suits your "playstyle" (the things you tend to do).

Again I would never say TH/SS termies are a bad unit. Only that they could be a "BAD choice" in a given circumstance to fill a given role.
"3++ is like YTTH but without the emo-bitching." - Ben /quote

The irony :D
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
Katie Drake's avatar

Katie Drake · 744 weeks ago

Mentioning that something grinds your gears isn't emo-bitching. Nobody's feeling sorry for themselves or talking about how badly they want to commit suicide and then not doing anything about it.
I like when Internet myths are debunked.

Man up and say that you like or dislike X unit. I don't see the need to justify it.
pimpdaddyork's avatar

pimpdaddyork · 744 weeks ago

I like Biovores too!, but not those Ymgarl Genestealers, not even the hive mind likes them.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
I like my Ymgarls. Not enough to max out on them or field them instead of Hive Guard, but enough for them to be my third Elite unit after the necessary Hive Guard are in place. They tend to be slightly more use against people who aren't fully up to speed with the top end of fifth edition play, but... eeh, I play half my games against twelve-year-olds who are still at the 'does the Carnifex go faster if I modelled it running' stage, so it's not like I have to be top tier or anything.
Dude your so far off base. You should just SEE me use my flashgits.
Top post :) that's a lot of replies man!
I approve of what you're saying (not necessarily of how you're saying it: I understand that you're raging, I just don't think raging is going to make the stupids go away any time soon). Particuarly fond of the distinction you draw between being able to get the most out of a corner-case unit and a unit actually being reliably good. See previous comment about Ymgarls - I can and do use them, and they do me proud, but that doesn't suddenly make them the best Tyranid Elite unit or anything, it just makes me a person who can find a use for half a dozen Ymgarls in favourable circumstances.
2 replies · active less than 1 minute ago
I agree with you 100%

On the unit thing,the problem is that Johnny Hopeful does use Ymgarls, has had success with them and then when you tell him they are not a good unit, gets dirty with you. That is part of the real problem.
"They work for me, so you can't tell me they're bad."

My family had a little Mazda 323 '81. At the lights, it was given the berries and it often raced away, beating the other cars. You or I would recognise that the car is light and perhaps the other cars were not be driven hard. Johnny Hopeful would believe that the little buzz box was indeed a quick car and gets offended when you tell him otherwise.
Was the Maz a good and faithful servant whilst we had it? Yes it was. Was the Maz ever quick? Not really and that is the problem for Johnny Hopeful. He just cannot see things scientifically.
Absolutely, and I'd be the first to admit that dodgy reserve and outflanking rolls would make my assortment of Stealers very sad, as would an opponent who's mobile enough to steer clear of the optimum entrance points. Fortunately for me, I've traded out my fourth edition army - some of my opponents are more attached to their toys, and have refrained. I would love to be able to emotionally invest in an army with names and conversions and records and backstories again, but edition changes made my Chaos frustrating and disappointing to play, and I haven't been able to settle on a WFB army that inspires, so... yeah, I've learned to be a little more transient about my hobbying.
pringles978's avatar

pringles978 · 744 weeks ago

great article, can we have one on the forum favourite "well i use it and it works for me"
TheAngelKing47's avatar

TheAngelKing47 · 744 weeks ago

Eh Canada and China have close enough gun laws :)

On that note, I always thought play style determined things like is your army shooty? assaulty? crazy suicidal?
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
They both start with C.
In fear of the USA invading them.
Love the colour red.
Gets snow in the winter.

I'm surprised people don't confuse those two countries more often :P
The comments were more entertaining than the post =D.
pringles suck's avatar

pringles suck · 744 weeks ago

Playstyle has everything to do with something being good or not, both in list building and in actual gaming. If I take an assault list and play defensively against a shooty army, then it doesn't matter if some nitwit thinks that the units I'm using are always good because my defensive playstyle can render them ineffective. Also, if my playstyle is to take an infantry horde and so I disregard expensive units and vehicles in order to render my opponents expensive one-hitters like Lascannons useless, then that is also making one unit more valuable by a playstyle. I can even effectively change the value of units in my opponent’s army by taking cheap troops that he can't kill enough of with his overly powerful weapons or the other way round. Units don't have a universal fixed usefulness value because it changes with each move made in the game, with each additional unit purchased for your army and with where those units are in relation to said unit when you're playing the game.
6 replies · active 744 weeks ago
You don't get it, it seems.
Tingle me Pringles's avatar

Tingle me Pringles · 744 weeks ago

Thanks for elightening me... or not.
Playstyle isn't a miracle cure that magically turns bad units into gold.
What you're thinking of is taking a subpar army, and using it to beat face on n00bs, which is fine - I do that sometimes, too. Still doesn't make my ironclads, chaptermaster, vanilla vanguard, vanilla honor guard, or 100% pure foot grey knights 'good.'

My lascannons won't be useless, silly person. I'll merely be shooting them against your infantry instead, scoring almost guaranteed kills, while you flail around with your gazillion lasguns, that are indeed rendered useless by the presence of even trukkz.
Pringly-tingly's avatar

Pringly-tingly · 744 weeks ago

Flail around with gazillions of lascannons is more like it and you'd be tabled or hiding before the turns run out.
That's right, because taking a list full of lascannons is awesome. Apparently they're the perfect anti-horde weapon.

Good luck with the tabling.
Playing like a tool is not a playstyle. It's playing like a tool and nothing more.

A well reasoned argument would assume one would know how to use the list he/she has created/copied.

And what you're talking about is tailoring. Hurray for you!
pringles978's avatar

pringles978 · 744 weeks ago

hmm, ____now which warseerite i have offended could this be... there are so many... i would say mr. scanlon but the spelling and grammar is too good. man up and post your name!____anyways, you are wrong and puppy is correct. the fact is some units are good, some awfull no matter how you use them. if you play an agressive, cc oriented marine list, no amount of "playstyle" is going to make vanguard good. no amount of "playstyle" will make hammer termies bad (though poor tactics is a different animal).____
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
pringles978's avatar

pringles978 · 744 weeks ago

i have a soft spot for scouts in storms, but im under no illusion of their level of competitiveness no matter how i use them. as the great puppy once said "If you like a unit, that is fine. You are allowed to like units even if they aren't good" the issue comes from people going on forums and trying to justify any advice they give based on your personal preferences. because you like a unit, because it "works for you in your gaming group" does not give you grounds to tell little timmy newbson to rush out and buy unit x and expect to have a decent army. that kind of bullshit leads to little timmy spending a fortune on a terribad army and getting hammered every game, then quitting the hobby. great for ebay, not great for the hobby as a whole. for example: fists are a terrible choice in vanilla tacs. advocating them because you like them shows a massive misunderstanding of combat tactics. l2specialrule. . taking a horde army to try playing rock/paper/scissors instead of 40k. l2listbuild. build your army how you want with the models you like and have fun. no problem with that. just dont pretend you know what your talking about in a tactics thread without a reasoned argument to back up your views.
Mmm Pringles!'s avatar

Mmm Pringles! · 744 weeks ago

I gave you a reasoned argument and you failed to see reason, how does that make you right and me wrong? It's just a fact that playstyle is the deciding factor in a unit's usefulness. That doesn't mean that I can take a terrible unit and make it good, but I can make a good unit bad, or a mediocre unit better. If everything was set in stone and tactics and playstyles didn't matter then two players playing the same list would have an even chance of victory and loss. As we both know this isn't really the case unless both of those players are also evenly matched in skill with competitive playstyles. All playstyles are not created equal, neither do each of them work the same with every unit in the game. However it's asinine to say that units are always simply good or bad statistically and that playstyle is some noobs excuse for fluff.
1 reply · active 744 weeks ago
You're not talking about playstyle, you're talking about ability.

Your playstyle influences the list you take and the decisions you make. Your ability lays out the options open to be decided upon. Playstyles do not in any way influence the quality of a unit. It may influence the way in which you use the unit like you said, but what AP is getting at is correct, playstyles are not truly unique. You not being able to use a unit doesn't make them bad, it makes you bad with them.

Good units don't auto-win games and you'll never be able to polish a turd.
AmazinglyHonest's avatar

AmazinglyHonest · 739 weeks ago

@Pringles Suck

That isn't playstyle, that's list-building. Do you people that are talking negatively of the original poster even fucking understand what the difference between playstyle, strategy, tactics, and list-building is?

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