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Monday, April 4, 2011

Crowe List 1: Dreadbash - Crowe, Purifiers, Dreadnoughts


So a while ago I did a post looking at Crowe and Purifiers and what units we can add around them to make a good list. There a lot obviously (good codex design!) so no single list is going to include everything and there will be multiple good armies. Sounds good to me!

Now Purifiers are more expensive than our usual Troops but as Dan pointed out in his guest post, we aren't really losing points if we were taking a similar number of GKSS squads + HQ. However, most lists shouldn't really be taking four full squads of GKSS and we aren't getting much out of our HQ compared to other options so in the end we are paying more than usual for the core of our list. Regardless, the Purifiers as our Troops are quite expensive (easily taking up over 1000 points for four squads) and whilst they give us an effective fighting force, are more than we would usually spend on Troops and since they are good units which double as scoring units, are quite high target priority for your opponent. These understandings must be kept in mind whilst we are building lists and these lists aren't really going to scale down well. 1750 is probably the bare minimum where you'll get positive returns from Crowe but 2000 is a much better points value to make maximum usage of his benefits.

So let's get our first list over and done with. A pure Crowe list. It's the most basic and least diverse of the potential lists and whilst it only uses a couple base units in the army, these units are exceptionally good, fill very important roles in the army and compliment each other well. These units are of course Purifiers (no way) and Dreadnoughts (including the Venerable types). What the Dreadnoughts do is give us some extra combat ability (between Dreads and Purifiers the list should be quite capable of handlying most things in combat) with the added ability of a mobile MM or psycannon (assault cannon + psybolts) or long-ranged punch with autocannons and psybolt ammo (psyflemen!). The Venerable Dreadnoughts are quite expensive but the combination of fortitude ('free' extra armor) and Venerable status makes them very survivable in both up close and ranged situations. However, the BS/WS of 5 is more beneficial to the MM Dread due to the single shot (and no twin-linking) and increased likelihood of engaging in combat so we might use them as our MM Dreads and the Heavy Support Dreads as our Psyflemen (though VenPsyflemen are pretty awesome, too).

So with that in mind we need to setup how we are going to run this list. We obviously are using 150 points for Crowe and we need to make sure we have enough Dreads and Rhinos for armor saturation (looking at 8+) from the rest of our 1850 points. Let's see our maximum ceiling if we go full out MSU Purifiers + 6 Dreads.

We'll keep the basic Venerables with MM/DCCW for 175 a piece and use the Dreads as our Psyflemen for 135 a pop. Combined with Crowe maxing the Dreads takes us to 1080 points and if we go full MSU Purifiers with double Psycannon + Psyback (190 points)  we soar to 2220 points; well over the limit so we are obviously going to need to change some things around and we have to consider that we aren't taking full use of the Purifier advantages over normal GKSS squads (we could do this same style of list with GKSS for 1890 points with no HQ for six less psycannons).

So let's look at a more balanced Purifier force rather than trying to shoe-horn an MSU style list. The smaller squads provide quite a bit of firepower for 190 points (2x psycannons, 3x storm bolters, 3x TL-S6 shots) but aren't the super generalists larger squads can be. I've been using this as a base squad lately:

8x Purifiers w/2x psycannons, 5x Halberds, hammer, Rhino = 267 points

Four of these squads gives us a great midfield and all-round presence but is 1068 points so drags us to 2148 points; going to have to lose something. The easiest answer here is a Venerable Dreadnought which takes us to 1973 points. Let's see what this gives us:

Crowe
Venerable Dreadnought w/MM, DCCW
Venerable Dreadnought w/MM, DCCW
8x Purifiers w/2x psycannons, 5x Halberds, hammer, Rhino
8x Purifiers w/2x psycannons, 5x Halberds, hammer, Rhino
8x Purifiers w/2x psycannons, 5x Halberds, hammer, Rhino
8x Purifiers w/2x psycannons, 5x Halberds, hammer, Rhino
Dreadnought w/2x twin-linked autocannon, psybolt ammunition
Dreadnought w/2x twin-linked autocannon, psybolt ammunition
Dreadnought w/2x twin-linked autocannon, psybolt ammunition

Not bad with 33 infantry and 9 tanks and although there isn't a lot of unit diversity, the flexibility of our core unit (Purifiers) with the support of the Dread does lend itself to a balanced list. Only eight psycannons  + 2 MMs to cover heavy armor like Land Raiders but quite a good combat presence for a midfield based army. You've got a few extra points you can play around with (add another Purifier to a squad or go for five smaller squads). You could potentially upgrade the Vendreads to Psyfles as well but you've only got two unit types then which could prove problematic though you could of course get rid of the VenDreads completely and go for more Purifiers. You could also do the opposite and get another VenDread and cut down on your scoring Purifiers.

The question we do have to ask is what are we gaining over this same style of list but with GKSS. Would we perhaps be better off with two full Purifier squads and then multiple smaller GKSS? It's a plausible list but probably more suited for either full GKSS or GKSS + Purifiers as Elites. We'll cover them later but for now, one Crowe list down.

Comments (11)

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Roland Durendal's avatar

Roland Durendal · 730 weeks ago

Good stuff Kirb. I actually have a decent Crowe + Purifier + GKSS list made. I'll try and do the post for it tonight if you want. All told it's fairly balanced and (this is a first for me) uses Stelek's 4+2 perfectly. How it plays is another issue but it looks (as of now) like a solid all around Crowe+Purifier list o' fun and awesomesauce.
I tried out 7strong purifiers and liked 'em a lot:

4halberds, 1hammer, 2 psycannons. I found it best to put a halberd on the Knight of Flame, since if you do suffer a perils of the warp, you probably don't want to loose the hammer.
Tyranid Monsterous creatures and their shadows of the warp *shakes fist*

I've been trying a Crowe list out at 1500pts, and I'm a bit up in the air about using 5 min Purifiers in rhinos, over 4 7's or 8's in rhinos. I think with purifiers, rhinos are a good way to go though.
2 replies · active 722 weeks ago
Aye I think the medium sized squad is a good balance between price and combat potential.

I think the small Purifier squads are good as support but I don't like them as the primary unit of the army. As I said in the post you could do a similar style of list with GKSS and save 300 points for the cost of 6 psycannons. I'll take that point reduction and loss of psycannons thanks!

Rhinos are always a good choice for Purifiers with double cannon but for the smaller squads Psybacks are a fine choice as well as you move into midfield and start making a mechwall. Those extra 3 S6 shots are pretty valuable over the course of the game.
Crowe

3x 10 Purifer squads
4 psycannons 5 halberds 1 mc hammer

2x psylman dred

dredknight hvy psycannon

is my 1500 list or switch out the dredknight rinos
I've been planning a Grey Knights list as a new army and was wondering about how good it'd be before I spent all my cash on it, its a 1750 list:

Crowe 150
Elite
Ven Dread w/MM&DCCW 175
Ven Dread w/MM&DCCW 175
Troops
5 Purifiers, MC Ham, PsyC, 3xHal, Rhino 186
5 Purifiers, MC Ham, PsyC, 3xHal, Rhino 186
5 Purifiers, MC Ham, PsyC, 3xHal, Rhino 186
5 Purifiers, MC Ham, PsyC, 3xHal, Rhino 186
Heavy Support
Psyfleman Dread 135
Psyfleman Dread 135
Dreadknight w/ tele, Hv. Incin 235

Then I saw your list up today and rejoiced as I recognised alot of the choices!

However, do you think my minimum sized purifiers will be stable enough at 1750?

Great work on the blog btw, by far my favourite in recent months ( not least due to your GK coverage ;) )
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
I think the Dreadknight is really unnecessary I'm afraid. It's the scariest combat unit there and is basically going to land in front of your opponent's lines, maybe kill something and then get plasma'd/melta'd to death. You need multiples of them I'm afraid so I'd drop the DK in favor of a larger Purifier squad and change the Rhinos to Psybacks since you're using smaller squads.
KingCronan's avatar

KingCronan · 730 weeks ago

why do people do the 8 man purifier squads over 10 or 5? i just want to understand the reasons behind ti. :)
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
Pretty sure I covered this before but I'll go into more detail for you =D.

I think 5/6 or 7/8 are the sweet spots depending upon what you want the unit to do. 5/6 is for Razorbacks and 7/8 for rhinos. 10 is of course usable but Purifiers get two specials at 5 strong guys and you generally aren't using those extra two specials at 10 strong because 4 psycannons in one squad is disgusting overkill more often than not (16 S7 rending shots into one tank?). This means if you're going to 10 guys for 4 special weapons you're combat squadding which means you are basically buy two 5-man units but with only one transport. This is a fine concept, particularly with a Grand Master but the smaller squads aren't scary in combat. They are certainly capable compared to other units but unlike the larger squads aren't actually scary and much more based around the MSU play-style.

The larger units are much more capable in combat and whilst you aren't gaining four special weapons (you can of course go to 10 guys) whilst still being very good shooting units. Many units aren't going to want to charge 5-6 Halberds with Hammerhand of Cleansing flame whilst only 2-3 on the smaller squad is a lot less daunting. Add in that the larger squad can take a few wounds and still be pretty effective.

In the end I find the 7-8 squad the 'sweet' spot between having a 300+ point unit and an MSU style unit (196 points, 2x psycannon, 3x halberd, Psyback). It gives you a unit capable of shooting and assaulting tanks and infantry alike in midfield.
8 man gives you a squad of comparable strength (Both have 2 Psycannons, Strike Squads can usually afford Psybolt Ammunition, Purifiers have access to cheaper Halberds, more attacks, and can spread Daemonhammers around beyond the sergeant) for a bit less (Fully kitted out Strike squad - all swords, 2 Psycannons, MC Hammer, Psybolts and Rhino = 295 vs 8-man Purifier unit with 2 Psycannons, 4 Halberds, and 2 Daemonhammers with a Rhino = 270).

I also wrote up a quick Crowe list:

Crowe - 150pts

Vindicare - 145pts

Venerable Dreadnought - 196pts
-TLAC
-TLAC
-Psybolt Ammunition
-Searchlights

Venerable Dreadnought - 196pts
-TLAC
-TLAC
-Psybolt Ammunition
-Searchlights

Purifier Squad - 290
-9 Models
-2 Psycannons
-7 Halberds
-2 Daemonhammers
-Mastercrafted Weapon on the Sarge
-Rhino

Purifier Squad - 290
-9 Models
-2 Psycannons
-7 Halberds
-2 Daemonhammers
-Mastercrafted Weapon on the Sarge
-Rhino

Purifier Squad - 290
-9 Models
-2 Psycannons
-7 Halberds
-2 Daemonhammers
-Mastercrafted Weapon on the Sarge
-Rhino

Dreadnought - 135pts
-TLAC
-TLAC
-Psybolt Ammunition

Dreadnought - 135pts
-TLAC
-TLAC
-Psybolt Ammunition

Dreadnought - 135pts
-TLAC
-TLAC
-Psybolt Ammunition

1998/2000pts
SneakyDan's avatar

SneakyDan · 729 weeks ago

The thing a lot of people arent getting with psyback (or plasback, which i prefer) + purifier or GK combo, is that you arent driving up, and only deploying if something gets close enough to melta. Its not BA and Wolves people. You drive up 6, or 12 possibly, deploy your dudes, and open fire. Your opponent then has to deal with the tank, and the well equipped infantry next to said tank, and they are BOTH pouring out quality fire power. Better still, of someone moves to assault your now stationary tanks, you have the option of screening with PW equipped marines, to prevent melta units/assault units from getting close to your tin boxes. Someone damages your 5 man squad down to the last man? No worries, flee towards the razors, get back in, and drive away with that killpoint.

This BA/wolves mindset does not apply to GK's. By taking 5-6 razors, with psycannon infantry, you are present 10-12 quality firepower targets. They can stun/shake SOME of them, but you will psy-pilot it. They can shoot marines, but they wont kill all of them.
Saturation through variety. Get this through your head when it comes to mech GK. Not spamming pure hulls.

:)
1 reply · active 729 weeks ago
Big +1 for Dan. GK want to get out of their tanks. I like some Rhinos for some variety and the ability to carrying larger squads but I still generally combat squad. Now add in a Libby with Shrouding and some meltahench bubblewrap or Rhino/Chim squads and not only do you have a bunch of viable shooting targets but you've melta, dedicated sacrificial units and utility Libby (though without large squads I wouldn't want to take the Libby as he makes anything scary in combat).

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