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Friday, May 27, 2011

Termhammer 40K: Balancing Rocks




Time for another exciting installment of the thing everyone likes the most: grammar lectures on the internet!

...Where is everybody going? What's wrong? Oh god what have I done. No, um, it's not a grammar lecture, it's er, a tactics article! Yeah, that's right! I'm gonna teach you important things about playing the game and winning and stuff!

(Oh god I hope that sounds believable...)

Rock: A type of army, also sometimes known as "hammer" or "deathstar." Rock armies get the spotlight early on like this because they are an easy mistake to make- the are the epitome of "all your eggs in one basket." A rock army, simply put, is one that has a single plan, virtually always revolving around delivering some sort of strong assault unit into the enemy's lines. If that plan fails, it has no other options, no real backup strategy, just one six-hundred point investment and some hope. While this can certainly win you fights, it has several inherent problems, not the least of which is you have no options. Guard blob army? Rush forward and assault with your rock. Blood Angels Doa list? Rush forward and assault with your rock as soon as they're on the table. Mech Eldar mobility list? Rush forward and assault with your rock. You have only one real plan and thus have no way to adapt to your opponent's weaknesses.



On top of that, there will be times when you face a "natural counter" to your army- that is, an opposing army that seems custom-built to defeat you. A Land Raider rush will roll over and die to a Dark Eldar lance spam army; Genestealer Rush folds badly to Purifier Spam; etc. Non-rock armies will sometimes come up against a natural counter as well, but they have more options when this happens (since a rock army is, by definition, lacking in options) and are less likely to encounter such an army (since the more complex and layered your plan is, the lower the chances of finding an army perfectly suited to beat it.) On top of that, rock armies tend to be a bit unpredictable in performance, since all of their force is concentrated into a small number of units- it does not take very many poor rolls for them to collapse entirely; of course, this works both ways, as some good rolls can make them nigh-invulnerable, although against a good opponent this still may not win you the game.

For these reasons, taking a rock/deathstar/hammer army to a tournament is a risky proposition at best. 'Ard Boyz and similar tournaments that greatly reward massacres or other strong finishes will show an undue percentage of rocks in the top spots, however, since "merely" getting a perfect record is no guarantee at all for getting first place at such an event.

As with most of the terms here, there are degrees to rock armies; some may have a limited backup plan, or might only contain a small rock- that is, have one "big" unit to threaten the enemy with whilst trying to preserve their normal battle plan. While such tactics are, more often than not, somewhat futile, as making a rock army work to full performance tends to demand all the resources in a list, but lists can certainly be said to have more or less "rock nature" to them indicating the degree to which they fit the stereotype.

Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield Terminators in a Land Raider (or, more commonly, two sets of them) are one of the more well-known rock armies; others include Nob Bikerz, Tyrantstars, Stormravens+(whatever), Jetseer Councils, and the so-called Leafblower. Most of them are characterized by one, or sometimes two identical, powerful melee units with extreme resilience and the ability to tie up or destroy large parts of the enemy army as well as the ability to close and engage quickly. The shooty variants, such as Leafblower, tend to try and alpha strike the opponent out and usually have less resilience than their melee cousins, though this is mostly because the melee versions need it more.

Balanced: The antithesis of a rock army, a balanced army is one that does its best to cover all its bases and be prepared for every contingency. Of course, it will still have a primary plan, but this tends to be much more generalized than with rock armies and will have redundancy and options in the extreme so as to be able to counter whatever threat the enemy puts forth against it. A balanced army will usually feature a wide variety of weapons across different platforms, or at least as wide as its codex permits and makes feasible, and will likewise generally have both melee and ranged defensive and offensive options.

The advantage of a balanced army should be pretty obvious- no matter what the situation, you theoretically have a tool to deal with it. The disadvantage, however, is similarly glaring- your army is going to have less of any single thing that a more focused army might. In a well-designed army this is not so much of a problem, as you should be taking a sufficient number of each item that they aren't easily eliminated and even non-ideal units can still perform secondary roles (such as a Hydra putting wounds on monstrous creatures, or Meltaguns killing MEQs.) The trick, of course, is getting that balance right, which can involve lots of tweaks to the army and a willingness to abandon setups that can't be shaped into the necessary form, not to mention the skill required to assess the army and its needs accurately and synthesize them into a functional whole.

You'll find Kirby (and others) strongly espousing the virtues of a balanced army, but I enjoy playing devil's advocate here, as everywhere else; there are potential advantages to having a rock-ish army, or at least the ability to play like one, and I believe there is nothing wrong with taking your local factors into consideration nor to intentionally leaning towards one particular spectrum of capability if one knows what one is doing.

It is worth special mention here that a balanced army does NOT try and spam guns (like Melta) because they are nominally "good"- this is the opposite of what a balanced army is trying for. While some players might find their sensibilities offended by identical squads (which is entirely within their rights, though it confuses me to no end), a closer look will note that other weapons will be liberally mixed in as well- for example, a Guard list might feature several squads with triple or quad Melta, but will also have ones with Autocannons, Lascannons, Multilasers, Flamers, etc, all in non-ignorable quantities. The exact numbers will depend on the relative value of each gun and its utility to the army, so it's only natural that some are more prevalent than others, but simply including large numbers of the "best" gun is not the way balanced armies function.

MEQ: MArine Equivalent; a model with T4 and a 3+ armor save, and the rest of the standard Space Marine statline, although the toughness and armor save are the most relevant parts, since it's most commonly used when comparing the effectiveness of various weapons at killing particular targets. The term is important because Space Marines are the "golden standard" of targets in the game, as you will fight them more often than nearly anything else and the profile is common even in non-Marine armies such as Necrons and even Tyranids. MEQs are the general "tough infantry" template.

GEQ: GUardsman Equivalent; a model with T3 and a 5+ armor save; as with MEQ, the assumption of the rest of the statline is also sometimes used. Also like MEQ, the term is used mainly when talking about the ability of various weapons to efficiently kill certain targets- in this case, GEQs are the default "easy target" and tend to represent the variety of minimally-defended horde armies out there. With the advent of 5th Edition shooting results almost always calculate in their 4+ cover save, as it's generally a safe assumption that their owner is a smart man and stuck them somewhere safe.

TEQ: TErminator Equivalent; a model with T4 and a 2+ armor save. Much less commonly used than the above, since with many weapons it will result in identical numbers to the MEQ statline, but against guns that rely on rate-of-fire the difference is relevant because Terminators will only fail half as many armor saves as normal Space Marines. As with the other two, the assumption of the standard gear/stats is not uncommon (i.e. Storm Bolter + Power Fist), especially when referencing roles for certain units in an army, as in "I used Termagants to deal with TEQs most of the time." A less common version of the term is "Tau EQuivalent," meaning a T3/4+ model, but this is mostly out of favor in 5E thanks to the relative rarity of such models (only Tau and upgraded Guardsmen) and the general assumption that all models will have a 4+ cover save when being shot at.

Comments (62)

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FNP Marines and WBB Necrons - MEq or TEq?
Same with Nobz with 4+ and FNP

Just wondering :)
1 reply · active 725 weeks ago
Nominally MEQs, but functionally TEQs.

4+/4+ doesn't actually correspond to any of the above mathmatically. Nobz tend to be a special case anyways, since you want to be using S8+ to kill them anyways.
Um...
(most) Aspect Warriors are also T3/4+.
Also, how may Terminator equivalents are there, anyway? THe only ones I can think of are Terminators, Techmarines, and Meganobz.
4 replies · active 725 weeks ago
Obliterators

Aspect Warriors are GEQ since the difference between 4+ and 5+ is pretty irrelevant in Cover Edition
Sanguinary Guard, Broadside Suits, many HQs. At least 7 armies can field various types TEQ units, so it's an important target demographic to take into consideration.
abortedsoul's avatar

abortedsoul · 725 weeks ago

Paladins
Most aspect warriors don't get used because they're terrible. And, as I said, the GEQ statline (with assumption of cover) tends to give you pretty much the same numbers.

TEQs are rarer than the other types, but in addition to being spread across a wide variety of armies, they also tend to require specialized firepower to deal with effectively due to their ability to shrug off volume of shooting techniques- you can bring down MEQs with Bolters if you have to, but with TEQs it's largely ineffective.
GEQ was always "gaunt equivalent" to me, ie Terma and Horma.
1 reply · active 725 weeks ago
Never seen it that way, interesting. 6+ vs 5+ isn't that big a deal, though.
Ugh! Please, no more Goatboy scribblings. They're both ugly and in bad taste.
1 reply · active 725 weeks ago
Is the pic by Goatboy? I just sorta grab something from my fold, pretty sure I got this one off 4chan.
If it's not Goatboy, it's a pretty good imitation. From the 'style' right down to the humor, or lack thereof.
5 replies · active 725 weeks ago
Eh, it's got stupid word humor. I wasn't falling out of my chair, but it made me smile, especially "Master of the Feet."
Stupid gaybashing word humor... less smiles and more facepalming from me.
I guess you could consider it vaguely offensive to gays? I really think that's stretching it a bit, though.
It's specifically offensive to my sense of humor.
Who cares, check out the great garden cultivation in the finecast post.
TheGayCommissar's avatar

TheGayCommissar · 725 weeks ago

Hehe... Lemonhost :)
I was with you up until "Leafblower", which isn't a Rock army at all without stretching the definition of Rock to the point of uselessness. (well, "leafblower" is allreayd stretched to "any Guard army I don't like", but I digress).

It's an MSU shooty army. It's the antithesis of a rock army.
1 reply · active 725 weeks ago
I was rolling Leafblower in with rock armies because it's the same kind of "I have one plan and only one plan and god forbid it goes wrong." It's not even MSU because it has shitty troops and no redundancy.

MSU isn't really compatible with rock armies, but they aren't opposites, either.
So I'm still composing my big email response to abusepuppy (sorry, a wedding, and a lot of work) but I run dual landraiders all the time, and it's certainly not a "one plan army" in fact, I routinely shoot with the LRs more than I charge with them. See, part of the important thing with the "payload" of the LRs is the capacity to do violence....rather than actually doing violence.

In fact, I just played a 1850 tourney last Saturday where the LRs (Crusader and redeemer) shot far more than they assaulted. IN fact I really only assaulted once, and that wasn't really needed, I'd already shot the poor SW player all to hell (he had thought I was going to be charging him, and had set up as such) I was really just charging to finish things sooner. Another time I sorta charged, but it was last round, and there was barely anything left, I could have just as easily tank shocked him off the objective.....which is what I did with the other one.

so, three games, 2 raiders, call it 1 and half charged. I won 2 games and lost the third (but honestly, that was only cuz he slow played the last turn....we had had plenty of time and I had counted on tank shocking again. He barely had anything left.

Never did a LR get destroyed. I think I only lost one gun. Now, granted, I didn't face a DE player.....but I have and have plans for that.

I'll email you the abbreviated battle reports tomorrow, it's a work in progress. I'll also finish that response from last week, eventually,

But the point is, dual LR strategies seem to be badly misunderstood. They're certainly not case that a rock army "is one that has a single plan, virtually always revolving around delivering some sort of strong assault unit into the enemy's lines. If that plan fails, it has no other options, no real backup strategy,"

At least not mine, I have a few different ways to play things.
37 replies · active 724 weeks ago
Sounds good :)

What LRs are you using?
"LRs (Crusader and redeemer)"
abortedsoul's avatar

abortedsoul · 725 weeks ago

So... how do you handle melta/railgun spam with that army?
So railguns are the simpler subject. A) I almost never see Tau (I play tau, myself, though not recently) I tend to believe current psychic powers, plus a few really nasty assault from nowhere powers are just too rough on them. There's like 2 players in the Boston area (I would make it 3, if I went back to them) B ) I don't know that Tau players usually "spam" railguns. You usually see 2 or 3 broadsides, and then a hammerhead. The Broadsides, even with stabilizers, are pretty static, so it usually pretty easy to keep decent terrain between you and them. You can then send something, like interceptors, outlflankers, DSers, to deal with the Broadsides. The hammer head is much hard to avoid, but it's also only one shot.

If someone had like 9 Broadsides, well, that's one of the situations where you blind charge, smoke the whole deal. No time to psussy-foot around, if there's blockers, frankly I'd get the dudes out midfield and run from there, It's not like you have to worry about Tau charging you. Never seen anything like that, though, Most Broadsides I've seen played is 4.

DE dark lance spam is frankly much worse, but it's not devastating. They still only glance on a 4 and with clever cover and shrouding, you can carry on. The good part is that raiders and ravagers are pretty easy to shoot down, so you only have to deal with a turn two of that.

Meltas, the regular, short ranged variety, are actually pretty easy to deal with, but why that is, is something I've apparently been having a very hard time explaining to people. The bottom line is, threat range on a melta in a rhino/chimera is 18", 20" if they turn around and jump out, and you have something like a 20-21" charge range. Additionally, LRCs have a pretty easy time shooting rhinos and GKs at 24", and GKs can wreck several vehicles in HTH on the charge (and then take melta in the face, but that's better than the LR getting it)
Basically what I'm getting here is "I've never played a good Tau army." Because if you've never seen more than four Broadsides at 1850 or 2K.... yeah. Your local Tau players (few as they may be) are shitty. They're not going to let you get to their Broadsides because that's specifically what Kroot are there for (blocking assaults) and if you drop in 1-2 units they'll just annihilate them with firepower. Cover won't save you because they have Markerlights. Tau, played well and built well, are nearly unbeatable for a LR army.

I'm not really sure how you're shooting down their Raiders/Ravagers consistently- they're gonna just lead you around the field from 36" and spam Dark Lances on you. Expect to see ~20 shots per turn, so ~14 hits, 7 pen/glances, which should shut down your guns almost immediately and quite possibly destroy you. If you send your whole army forward you take out _maybe_ two of their vehicles in return? And the following turn they gut you like a fish because you had to move everything out of position to do it. Or you hang back, shoot with one LR, and possibly immobilize/wreck one vehicle, and the next turn they kill your other Raider and tear up your squads.
OK, puppy, I really only want to say this *&$% once......if your arguments ever invoke "those people you play suck, that's why you think certain things work when they obviously don't" this conversation is going to devolve real fast. I play Tau, they were my first army, i know how the hell tau work. Let's just leave it at "tau are pretty damn rare these days" and I know they're damn scarce at big tourneys, and then we don't have to waste time arguing about things that don't matter anyway.

Now, I certainly have fought the 20 Dark Lance DE lists a number times....and beat it more often than not. It's not like it's easy, did you want me to tell you LRs have no natural counters? That wouldn't be very balanced, would it? ('Course, wouldn't accuse GW of balance) It's not nearly as bad as you describe, however. Sure 20 DL would lead to well, actually it's 4.4 pens, 2.2 glances, 6.6 total. You remember we're talking GK, right? I mostly don't care about glances, btw, or at least 66% don't.

Anyway, it's only 4.4 pens if I was all out in open, playing stupid not doing anything interesting. Can you give me the credit of assuming I don't do that? Between terrain, shielding one LR behind the other, and smoke I can get a decent amount of cover, and I assure you, Shrouding works just fine on DE. The bad news is it takes something 9.18 shots to get a non-shaken/stunned result on the LRs, and 18 to get a destroyed. The good news is that with him have so many raiders, being bunched to avoid getting charged and all that, you can usually rig it so that a little less than full 20 lances can shoot you.

IN practice I can tell you yeah, often a LR gets immobilized, loses it's psycannon, or is destroyed. Sometimes (like 1/3) they don't. That sucks but when you run this sort of list you have to be able survive a LR going down, that's why you take two.

Now, where you are really, really wrong, is about how much damage you can do to the DE. We're talking something like 9 skimmers, maybe more? 6 raiders + 3 ravagers, at least. Well, first of all forget about "leading me around from 36"" The field's just not that big. If you're near the center of the board, with a 30" to 36" threat range (movement+24" shooting) you can cover most of board. That doesn't happen either of course, since you're trying to get cover, but the bottom line is that it's just not that easy to get that far away.

Now what will really surprise you is the kill rate. I have most of these numbers figured out for either % likelihood to kill AV10, and I just calculated "number of kills/stops" (like wounds) vs AV 10 Open Topped, but what I haven't done is calculate % likelihood to kill vs AV10 open topped. Just same I think the numbers are illustrative.

My current 1850 has something like 8 psycannons in it. Each psycannon will "stop" something like 1.33 raiders (if it could split shots, it can't) and it will kill .74 raiders. The numbers are .96 and .52 for the ravagers. The "can't fire numbers" are even higher, actually.

Don't discount all the Str 5 bolters, either. GKSS squad by itself, psybolts and psycannons, has a 79% to kill AV10 (not counting open-topped). I don't have it calculated, but I think that goes closer to 90% with the +1 from open-topped.

So you have 8 psycannons, 2 Multi-Meltas and a solid 2 squads or so with psybolts. This is very fuzzy math but it's something like 6 or 7 dead raiders. Knock 1/3 of that cuz they have those shadow shields, then it's 4 dead, several others that can't shoot or are immobilized.

SO right now my fuzzy mathammer is matching quite nicely with personal experience (I've fought 4 games versus heavy DL lists with new GK....it's only been 2 months)

Generally speaking 1 LR gets immobilized or destroyed 1st or second turn. Yeah, sucks. But the raiders just go down in droves. I've had a lot of fun teleporting an immobilized, weaponless LR as mobile cover, btw. Second and third turns go a lot better, as DE are losing stuff much faster than the GK.

Not long after that it gets down to HTH, so far santuary, cleanisng flame and such, that's gone pretty well for me.

Clear enough? I feel I get prodded into writing these thesis just to counter some really off-base assumptions.

As usual all my numbers come from this nice doc here: https://spreadsheets0.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?...
I didn't say "You only play bad people," I said "You have not played a good Tau list/player." If they're only running 2-3 Broadsides, their list is bad- I'm sorry, that's just how Tau are. You will see, at a minimum, five Railguns in a decent Tau list above 1500pts; their army does not have enough good unit choices to support anything else.

I am aware that Tau are very rare these days in many areas; I have no idea what your list is like, since you've never mentioned it, but I'm assuming it falls into the Kroot/Crisis/Broadsides/Piranhas template that virtually every functional Tau list does.

I consider glances relevant because they have a chance to immobilize you or tear off your Psycannon. I realize that GK ignore, for the most part, stunned/shaken.

"Layering" your LRs obviously works, but it slows you down against an enemy that is already faster than you and potentially results in having to drive around the wreck of the front vehicle, which they will be shooting at.

Nine to twelve skimmers, depending on points totals, is about right. Your 36" threat range only applies to a single gun (presumably your Psycannon)- which will net you roughly one pen and one glance. Decent odds of killing a vehicle, but far from guaranteed, especially with Flickerfields and/or cover. Your Riflemen? Not gonna be in range if they don't want them to.

I'm not sure how your eight psycannons are mounted, but I can guarantee you against a good DE player they aren't all going to get to shoot. That's what DE _do_, they outmaneuver you.

I would rather see an actual response to the email than more being angry on the internet about how my assumptions are wrong. I realize you have other shit to do and it's not super-exciting, but when you're writing posts like this and the email has been sitting for several weeks now, it kinda makes me think that you're avoiding it for whatever reason. Which is up to you, but I laid out what I felt was a pretty coherent set of points, which you thus far haven't responded to at all. Before we get into any more dick-swinging contests about whose army can beat who, I'd like to hear why you consider your firepower non-inferior in regards to the points i raised and how, tactically and strategically, you deal with the scenarios I talked about.
Let's leave the Tau thing alone, it'll just make me angrier.

Yeah, need to write that email, not avoiding, just get distracted by things like this. Psycannon, will net .44 glances and 1.33 pens, btw, more if it's twinlinked. Pen on open topped has a 50% kill (minus flicker fields, yes).

You're being very amateurish with the ranges. There's just not enough table to run on. What you say would be true if the table size is inifinite, but it's not. Terrain also affects things.

I'm just telling you how it happens, dude. I've fought DE 4 times since my new codex came out, (only been two months!) and a number of times before that. I also backed it all up with numbers for you. How many DE have you fought with LRs (presumably none, since you seem to hate them). How about the reverse?
You seem to have gotten it into your head that I think Land Raiders are the worst thing ever and only dumb stupid idiots who think like a moron should take them. I don't; they aren't. A more accurate description might be "Land Raiders are generally not the best choice you can take because they have inherent issues with the types of lists you end up taking because of them." You can build a good list with Land Raiders. You can play a good army with them. I don't think it's the BEST army you can build with any of those codices (SM, SW, BA, BT, DA, GK), but you can build good ones with most of those books. I just feel that, for tournament play and attempting to maximize your chances of success, Land Raiders have some problems that stem from the way 40K works.

*shrug* We'll have to do a diagram. No, they don't have infinite range to run from you, but they don't need it. They concentrate force, bust one Land Raider and its contents, and move into the "empty space" created. It's the same technique you use against horde Orks. Terrain is largely irrelevant for the DE movement because they are skimmers.

I'll ask you not to invoke "I've played this army so much, I'm super-pro and you don't know what you're talking about" argument just as you don't want me to call the folks you play against bad. If your argument is going to boil down to "I know what I'm talking about and you don't therefore I'm right," there is no point to the discussion. If you know the army, make good arguments and convince me with evidence, don't cite the number of times you've won and tell me you're better. I don't want to come off as pissy, but as I said, if you're not going to use good argument form, there's no point to all of this.

(There's a reason I said "roughly"- the point is you have better-than-50%-but-still-not--anywhere-near-a-guarantee chance of wrecking one transport with a Psycannon.)

We'll have to have another, separate discussion about Tau, because apparently you know something I don't about the codex. Is there a secret Heavy Support option I don't know about? Shit, is there ANYTHING in that codex that's worthwhile outside of the above-named units plus Pathfinders and maybe Hammerheads? Because I'm pretty sure most of the units in there are trash of the worst kind. Not trying to aggravate you, this is a discussion I would like to have, but seriously, Tau are one of the most limited codices in the game in terms of builds, right after Necrons.
Well, if you think you can build a good list with them, what are we arguing about then? The list works better against some armies than others, obviously, same with everything else. Your post definitely made it seem like taking LRs was a bad, bad idea. You also said it commits you to "one plan" which just isn't true at all, and I definitely thought was the source of your misunderstanding.

I'll tell you one thing, it means you're never wondering where to put you terminator HQ. It also makes a bitof a laugh of all those autocannons and missile launchers everyone takes these days.
Possibly came across that way, but that wasn't my main intent- I more meant that Land Raiders are limiting to your strategy (because of what they force you to do to use them effectively) and that I don't think they are in the top tier of armies you can build from their respective books.

I DO think it basically forces you into one plan, though- you have guys that you need to get into assault. Sometimes you slow-roll it a bit and only move 6" or whatever to get into cover, but you can't just sit and weather fire and you can't win a shooting game, I still believe that.

(For GK it's handy, yeah, since so many of their guys come in Terminator.) Those Missiles/AC are just gonna get aimed at the other elements in your army, though- it helps some, but it's not like they don't have targets.
Honestly, I usually "slow roll" (I have now decided to co-opt that term, thanks whilheim). So I have a few few basic plans of action to use them. 1. Charge straight forward blindly (doesn't usually happen) 2. Shoot cautiously, charge to clean up finish (this is normal) 3. Only use the thing for shooting, payload inside (this really depends upon how things go). 4. Do something else with the payload (such as deepstrike, or maybe outflank) and use the LR as a firing platform (eh, I actually do this, though not often, depends upon what I'm facing, what the objectives are).

I dunno, how does that compare to the options presented by GKSS squad in a rhino? Seems about the same, actually.

I usually assault, but often enough I don't. Very often, the battle was really won before assaulting, though in tourney's, that decisive assault really helps to cement the strong win which leads to higher battle point scores.

"Sometimes you slow-roll it a bit and only move 6" or whatever to get into cover, but you can't just sit and weather fire and you can't win a shooting game, I still believe that."

I can, I do. If you look at the load-out: psycannon, MM, and either str 5 hurricane bolters or the flamestorm cannons, it's actually a fair amount of shooting in about 260-270 pts. Compare that to your typical GKSS squad, psybolts, in a rhino, 2 psycannons, which costs 280. Since the LRCs Psycannon is twinlinked, and always gets 4 shots, I'd rate that about comparable to the GKSS's 2 psycannons, which usually get 4, but sometimes can get 8 shots. We have similar # of str 5 shooting, and of course the LRC has a MM.

It's a really similar volume of fire, but the LRC is AV14, and usually unshakeable. So I don't know why you have trouble believing it can win a shooting war.
You keep comparing the cost of a Land Raider to a GKSS, which is a very poor comparison; you're not counting the cost of the squad inside, which is the "hidden" cost of the Land Raider- 150 for the Librarian (or other HQ) and 200+ for the Terminators, so while your Raider itself may be "only" 260, the total cost of the unit is closer to 600pts.

Your S5 shooting is actually grossly inferior to the GKSS's- they get 16 shots on the move, you get... zero on the move (assuming you want to shoot your Psycannon and Multimelta.) Even stationary they have you beat 16-6 unless you get within 12", where you finally even out thanks to TL.
Well, no, hold on, you can't count the unit inside as a "hidden" cost. point of fact, if it didn't make sense to have that payload int there, you don't have to. You can, and I sometimes do, use the LR as a pure shooting platform.

The fact that I, or anyone else, usually doesn't, and has a fairly nasty unit inside, speaks to the enormous advantages of being able to assault to 20". That has intrinsic value. But you said it can't compete on a shooting ability per point cost. The unit inside can't be factored into that, as fairly often I use something liek GKSS in one, that squad can get out and shoot, same as it would with a rhino.

Essentially, you want to count the cost of the payload both ways. Like medicare savings.

Anyway, as to effectiveness of the LRC (or redeemer itself), I tend to find that I only wanted to shoot the hurricane bolters when I didn't need to move anyway. But, fine, the LRC can shoot slightly less str 5 than a GKSS squad........yaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy...........

It still has equivalent psycannon shots, plus a mult-melta. I think the melta more than makes up for any storm bolter deficit, don't you? All that, on a much more durable platform. I think your arguement that it doesn't offer comparable shooting compared to the (actually more expensive) GKSS squad is pretty flimsy.

C'mon, just admit this point.
I totally can count the squad inside as a cost because _that was my original point_. A Land Raider needs a payload to deliver and that cost, plus the cost of the Raider, ends up taking such a large portion of your army that you are "behind" other comparable armies.

GKSS can and often do stand still to shoot their Psycannons, so I count the MM+TLPsy as equal to the pair of Psycannons. It's not perfect, but it's a rough equivalence. And "slightly less" is a bit different from "half as much." Storm Bolters are a major strength of GK shooting, the fact that you're dismissing them as worthless seems rather odd. My Tyranids don't care about Psycannons or most of their psychic powers and even NFW are largely annoying, but the fact that they have strong, mobile anti-infantry is a big deal. Why do you think GK get out of transports to shoot so often? They can fire two Psycannons out the top hatch, so it ain't that.

"Hey, just agree with me" is a terrible argument.

I'm not sure how you get a GKSS squad as costing more than a LR. 200 for the dudes, 20 for Psycannons, 20 for Psybolt, one MC Hammer? Still less. If you count their transport in, sure, but at that point why not compare GK + Rhino to Termies + Libby + LR? And then you're not really doing numberical calculations anymore, you're comparing relative uses.

You seem to be changing what your payload is here- I thought you ran double Raiders with Libby and Terminators inside? (Presumably only one Libby, but could be either way.) Yes, you can put something else other than the "normal" payload inside if the mission warrants it, but you're still paying the points for those dudes, they don't magically vanish when you want something else.
Auretious Taak's avatar

Auretious Taak · 724 weeks ago

LR can die in one shot, GK SS in proper 2" coherency cannot die in one shot.

You face people who have strong lists and have inbuilt sacrificial units for heavy armour or other hard to kill targets and that LR suddenly ceases to exist, whereas if there is a payload inside as well then it takes considerably more to wipe out both unless you pull a surround assault that kills them before they can disembark.

The simple fact is, the LR has a transport capacity and it is the best armoured transport capacity in the game because you can assault out of it even when it moves. If you aren't utilising that capacity with a unit inside as well, then you aren't utilisintg the LR to its' full potential.

Sure, LR's are very useful in other roles and have abilities and merits themselves, however, they generally in the longterm can't do as much damage as a payload can, or rather can be countered relatively easily whereas a payload can't if it is a good payload. Also, comparing a vehicle rto an infantry squad is flawed as both are different units and do different things on the field. Compare it to the points of MSU's in cheaper transports and the effects they can have overall and then people will give you more kudos. KP don't factor in here either cause if you get tabled sucks to be you, you just lost even if you had less KP's generated because of the expensive ass LR variant.

Where's those articles Puppy and Prometheus?
No offense, but I don't think you've run into many good Guard players either. Land Raiders are ridiculously easy to block with a Hellhound or Chimera. With 2 LRs coming, I'll block one in on the far side of the table with my hound and let you get a bit closer with the other before I block it too. Out you come and... poof! Defeat in detail.

Tau have it even better with their fast skimmers.

Seriously, if I see Land Raiders on the other side of the table, I giggle inside.
I fight, tons, and tons, and tons of IG players. I am tired of fighting IG.

I think one thing you faily to appreciate is that most IG want to come to you....12" engagement range.

I'm really tired of this whole "blocking" discussion btw, it just work the way you people seem to think it does. Go ahead. I'll be fine,

Unless you have that leman russ variant that does melta dmg at 72" I don't like that thing. But still, just got to avoid LOS/get cover, same as with the broadsides.
>Most IG want to come to you

...wut. No, really, IG are a long-range army. Manticores, Lascannons, Autocannons, Multilasers, Hydras, etc, etc. If you wanna sit back at range, IG are just fine with that. They'll send forward some squads in the final turns and take objectives/contest your objectives and be happy with it, because they've been able to shoot you the whole game.

The thing with the blocking discussion is, pretty much everyone here has read Stelek and Kirby's (as well as other people's) articles on using it against transports and especially assault transports. Most of them have likely used it in games before; you're not the only one with experience. I won't say there's a consensus or anything like it, but there is a general knowledge of how it functions. Maybe you've read these articles, maybe you haven't; I have no real way of knowing. However, if your experience grossly differs from ours, it would be good to illustrate how you feel it is/should be working, ideally with a Vassal diagram or such so that it isn't all left to vague attempts at describing things with words alone, as that tends to be difficult for both parties to understand well.
Stellek is both an asshole and an idiot, that's my opinion on that.

Yes, I understand how blocking works, I've done it myself with Tau. For the record it doesn't work nearly as well as you all think it does, particularly when the LR isn't just "barging in" All it really means is that you're feeding me chimeras one by one, then.

And this isn't really relevant when all the chimeras are rushing to engage you at 12" anyway. You say IG are a long-range army.......well sure they can be, but they usually aren't. They usually have 1 or 2 elements that can shoot you at long range, but often not even that, and all the rest is chimera filled with meltas.
>all the rest is Chimera filled with Meltas

See, this is a bad army. It's non-ideal. It can win, but it's not actually very good because Guardsmen are very, very fragile and Chimeras are AV10 on the sides, so moving forward exposes you to fire. I'm not here to hard on the players you play against and I'm not here to tell you that you (or they) are bad and don't know what you're talking about, but if you're gonna say stuff like this, I'm gonna disagree with you. Guard, like Tau and other shooting armies, live and die by the distance between them and the enemy. Meltavet spam is not, and never has been, a good army, it's just one of those "internet popular" things like double-Lash Oblits, Nob Bikerz, etc, that people think is good.

Stelek is a self-righteous asshole and often can't admit he's wrong, but he's not an idiot. He's a good (maybe even great) player and one of the best list-builders out there, hands down, he just can't let go of something once he's grabbed ahold. When he actually bothers to post tactics, they are generally solid and when he takes the time to explain things, his reasoning is usually equally solid.

(Blocking is hardly an unbeatable tactic, but it severely limits the enemy's options when used properly.)
So, puppy, are you purporting to be an expert on how best to play GK, Tau and IG?

I can only report to you the kinds of armies I see and get to fight. No, this is not an inivtation to go and say "well, if the people you play were better players, you'd learn." It means I will gear lists to fight the kinds of things I see. Meta-game affects everyone. Most IG players rely upon chimeras and some number of meltas and maybe plasma inside to do the bulk of their work. I think most people would agree this is a fact. Now, they usually have a few vendettas, or demolishers, or vendettas or maticores, too, but not what I would consider "enough".

They play these lists because the #1 opposing force is, in the end, a ton of marines in rhinos.

This means it is sometimes very helpful not to be a MEQ in a rhino.
>are you purporting to be an expert on how best to play GK, Tau and IG?

Uh, no. There's a world of difference between "I have a general understanding of this army and how it functions" and "I am good with this army." I'm basically the former with IG and probably a notch below that with GK.

*shrug* If that's what folks play, then fine, but that is not the best build for IG for exactly the reasons you talk about. It's short-ranged and has to send its fragile, fragile troops into the enemy in order to do damage.

However, this is pretty far off the original subject, so...
Yeah, I'm not really here to debate what the best strategies for IG are. I tend to leave that to them, figure they know their business better than I.
Is that for your GK army?

+++

I was surprised when Darkseer [from the space wolf blog] took a LR Phobos to a tourney, 1750 pts. "What are you doing?!" I thought.

Well to get the most from the tlLC, he had to 'play slow' with it, which worked well as it also kept his WG Termies alive, who had power weapons and combi-guns galore, but no 3++ saves - which are super expensive for a Wolf.

After the enemy rock [or any good unit, really] had committed, he then counter-trumped them with his combo, and that meant he had his alive after theirs, which is game changing.

Funny how some things aren't strong on paper, they can actually have a bit of craftiness to them and be good. Most things that aren't strong just aren't strong, but it is great when the gems are found!
Wow, yeah, that's actually a great term for it "slow play". Almost like Rope a Dope. You don't just go charging in, and to be honest I don't pop all that much smoke, usually too busy shooting.

Yes it's my GK army. I did similar stuff with my Old MS+GK lists (all the same models, always been painted GK, lots of Forge World)

I would actually like to see this blog entry on the Phobos, do you have a link? One thing worries me, the Phobos is Forge World yes? That tends to make me think it wasn't too serious a tournament. I also don't recall being especially impressed with it when last I saw its stats, but I certainly could be wrong.
Phobos-pattern is the proper name of the standard Land Raider, with lascannon sponsons and the forward heavy bolter turret. Usually refered to, inncorrectly, as "Godhammer-pattern," which is actually the name for the lascannons... Godhammer Kz9.76 design, if you want specifics.

Yes. I spend too much money on FW books. :$
Ohhhh...I didn't know. I was thinking of that Achillies thing.

Not a big fan of the standard LR. LRs are for delivering troops, lascannons aren't. This is ever more true with GK. Psybolts are just too good. Screw it that psybolts make hurricane bolters no longer defensive, I never fired those much while moving since they're rules changed, anyway.

Would like those links wilhelm
The problem the standard Land Raider has is that the table is only 48" wide, most of the time. In Epic scale, the lascannon proved its worth thanks to the range allowing it to shoot while it closed. In Warhammer 40K that silly 48" distance puts everyone in range for free.
Ajax has it right, it is the tl LC Raider. People just call it by the guns, but they call the other two by the 'model'.
Darkseer's list: http://space-wolves-grey.blogspot.com/2011/03/off...

Game #
1] http://space-wolves-grey.blogspot.com/2011/03/201...
2] http://space-wolves-grey.blogspot.com/2011/04/201...
3] http://space-wolves-grey.blogspot.com/2011/04/201...
4] http://space-wolves-grey.blogspot.com/2011/04/201...
5] http://space-wolves-grey.blogspot.com/2011/04/201...
6] http://space-wolves-grey.blogspot.com/2011/05/201...

+++
http://saimhann.blogspot.com/
On Fritz's site, he has a video batrep of his Nids against Black Matt's Deathwing. Matt has three LR. The batrep isn't a great one, without trying to sound small, and Fritz wins, but sometimes it is nice to see something in action, even if it fails. Matt uses three LR Phoboses at 2K.
To be fair to Matt's list, Fritz is a stronger player than Matt.

+++
http://warhammer40kbloodangels.blogspot.com/2011/...
Jawaballs takes 4 LR to Battle for Salvation, and does well. I don't know the points BfS is played at....
>LRs are for delivering troops.

>.> This is what I keep trying to tell you, but...
You seem to have a almost purposeful way of misunderstanding me. Just because that's their purpose, it doesn't mean it's their only purpose. And just because delivering troops is their only purpose, doesn't, crucially, mean that that's what they spend most of their time doing.
Looking forward to your reply, but until you give me something to disagree with, I can't really argue. I already told you why I think that running two LRs with squads in them denies you the possibility of winning a shooting war, you're just too much down on points.

Using the threat of assaults and your ability to reach across the table and slap the enemy around is key to a using a rock unit effectively- and don't get me wrong, rock armies CAN win, I just think it's a very risky plan overall. A lucky Immobilized hit first turn pretty much ruins your game, as does fighting Dark Eldar, etc, as described in the article.

You can have different options with a pair of LRs, but in the end, your plan always comes down to "...And then my Terminators hop out, assault them, and I win." (Or, you know, they play so defensively you never get to interact with them, but that's the same thing in practice.)

I honestly do not know how you are outshooting... any competent opponents, as you simply don't have all that much firepower. My Tyranid army can literally stand right in front of you and absorb every shot you put out the entire game and you STILL will not have done significant damage to it. (Obviously in a real game you'd charge me at some point, but for example's purposes.) Likewise, my Tau wouldn't ever give you a chance to be in range of shooting me. I'm interested to see your responses and would like to see what your opponents are doing/playing, but forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical- I still don't consider half a dozen Psycannons and Autocannons to be terribly threatening firepower.
I'm getting to that reply, I really am, best to wait for that. Should definitely have it to you tonight, which the end of month I'll have some time. Marshal had good term for it though "play slow". If it's not worth charging, you don't. If the girl with thr broken down car isn't hot enough, you stay in the truck. Just holler as you drive by.

If Kirby is at all amenable, I'd like to do a guest article LRs and how to play them, and also the current metagame.
*shrug* Up to Kirb, but I think a hybrid article summarizing the discussion and back-and-forth points would be more of a thing I'd do. If you wanna submit an article on LRs as well, feel free to write it up, though.
I'd really rather you didn't.
What, do you think I'm going to intentionally quote you out of context? I'm not here to be a jerk who's Always Right, I want to lay the discussion we've had out for people who aren't us.
I don't think DoA armies are really a rock army. They generally don't have a "rock" unit to deliver. Usually you have a couple, smaller combat units that work together, in two Vanguard Units supported by Sanguinary Guard and/or Honor Guard. In addition, the rest of the army almost always benefits from FC/FNP, so they are pretty viable in melee against anything short of a real combat unit. That and the immense options for deployment and mobility make it more of an all-out assault, and yet very flexible force.
1 reply · active 725 weeks ago
DoA armies aren't rock armies- they virtually always have several viable deployment plans (on-table, off-table), good support units (VV, Sang Guard, Devs, Honor Guard, etc), good scoring potential, and so forth.

BA can build rocks using Stormravens or Land Raiders (with Assault Termies, Death Company, or Vanguard inside), but most of their builds don't end up that way.
Antebellum's avatar

Antebellum · 725 weeks ago

Why do half of the posts nowadays turn into Sir_Prometheus arguing back and forth with the OP for a good 20 posts?
1 reply · active 724 weeks ago
Because 3++ is basically as much DEBATE CLUB as /tg/ is, for the most part. So long as it stays civil, I don't have a problem with that. It's not that difficult to hide those threads if you don't like them, just click the little arrow between the Reply button and the "XX replies" bit and it all goes away.

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