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Thursday, May 5, 2011

Tournament recap - how fester fails at 40k.

So ladies and gents, the unthinkable occurred.
I played a game of 40k.
Oh. My. God.

Actually, I played 5, at a semi-local comp RTT.
So off I trundled, with the Ork List that beat Kirby, cocky as a sock full of ... umm.. roosters.

Well, you can imagine what happened...

Firstly, The list I took is here:

 Mek w/KFF + Bosspole
2x3 Nobs w/1 Skorcha
2 Wagons w/Rolla, Big Shoota
11 Shootas, Trukk, Ram
10 Shootas w/Bosspole Nob, Trukk, Ram
3x11 Sluggaz + Bosspole PK Nob, Trukk, Ram
3x2 Buggies w/rokkits
3x3 Kans w/zookas


So game 1 was a grudge I had lined up months in advance versus a local player with a good reputation as a great player, and a guy who nearly always places. Time for some sharp learning. He also runs an army that on paper looks like my cat threw it up.

Mission: Spearhead, Annihilation.
My lowly 21 KPs versus his... 9 ish. This was a battle points event, so a win by 5+ is full points. Chances of me pulling that off ? Bugger all. I deployed and split my forces around a central terrain piece, and he just took my army apart piecemeal.

His MVP's: Defiler - took about 4 KPS (including Kans, Battlewagons, Nobs, Trukks at least), Havocs (2 Missile, 2 Autocannon) took out about 3 trukks and most of the buggies, and the Daemon Prince that could. I killed it, but it help up an entire flank for 3 turns by itself.

Game 2 was against a local from my area, with a hybrid-ish BA list on Capture and Control, Pitched Battle.
Yay.
If you held both you massacred, held theirs and yours was free was a major, vice versa a minor, or 1/1 / 0/0 a draw.

I Deffrolla'd away his mobility, and set to task on his troops with Grotzookas. FNP doesnt matter when you are throwing 25+ wounds on 8 models. It was a Massacre to me at end of turn 4 with 15 minutes to go. He pushed me to turn 5 and cleared his objective and held it. Draw. 8 minutes to go, I forced him to Turn 6 (with the dice on my side) I killed his last 2 troops models. Minor to me.

Game 3 was Capture the flag. 3 objective carried by 3 units per side. Kill/break the unit, the killing unit takes the flag and carries it (regardless of distance, that's right, lasplas could just take all the flags from you wihtout moving). I draw... Tau. Reasonable list, but with my ranking the other guy hadn't won too much. End of story, I flank him, Buggies nuke one squad of suits Turn 1,and thats it. I win missing only the bonus points for tabling the opponent.

Game 4 was 5 objectives vs a 25 model Pod-SW Heroish list.
Great guy, lovely army (best painted winner I might add), but in a nutshell he called it at first dice "you will table me". Good guess. I just left him drop pod sized holes in my army to drop into, and saved myself having to waste time chasing him down.

Game 5 was against another local of mine who is from my LGClub, but I had never played. Dawn of War Annihilation. Chaos list. Kharn, Land raider, bits and bobs, defiler. Oh I've played this game before, and last time it tabled me. Fudge.
At end of T3 I was 5/1 KP down. By end of T4 I was 7/5 up.3 kans dumped 28 wounds onto a single CSM Squad that were already running (only target after I blew their tank up) and the whole squad disappeared. I eke out a minor, that would have been a major had we got Turn 6.
Highlights of the game, 5 buggies taking 4 turns to kill a single Rhino, then Kharn killing 3 Kans before they got to swing only to be squished by shoota boy shots in a single volley next turn.

Result
10th out of 24 players. W/L record:: 4/1.
Disappointed? Yes and no.

Let's break this down.
Firstly, this was me Netlisting. Yeah, I know its actually my army, and yadayada... but I looked at the list online, sprouted how good it was, saw another player use it and made the call myself that I'd run it.
How many times had I playtested it, you might add?
0. Zip, zero, nada.I still had to look up the Ramshackle result each time the trukks got asploded. No, seriously. I had used this list that much.
Second, my cockiness got me. I told an opponent "The thing I like about this list is that it is basically un-table-able." Bam, tabled.
Third, seriously, just once I want to pass a KFF save. Just once. I can make 2 out of 3 6+ armor saves, but not 1 KFF save (usually from about 4 penetrating hits).
Finally, I just want to throw down a counter argument to this. I know my Playstyle is Not a Unique and Special Flower but do you know what, this army just doesn't suit my play style. Sure I got a good W/L record, but overall I knew that I was getting bugger all / 30 for comp so it was win, win big, every game. The army I am playing is probably one of the best the codex can throw out but it just didn't work for me...

I wish I knew the posts last week on "non-optimised lists" hadn't bitten me on the ass.

Anyway, this is the question for the viewer out there (SMS cost 55c, seek parenatal permission if < 15 yrs old).

What do I do now. I have another event in 7ish weeks

1. Rewrite list to better suit my playstyle by adding a little more CC punch and try trimming some KPs out - at least to below 20
[Example - to be checked, its probably not right]
HQ
Warboss, PowerKlaw, Cybork Body
Mek w/KFF 
Troops
5 Nobs w/1 Skorcha, Painboy, Cybork (a little nobstar)
Battlewagon w/Rolla, Big Shoota
11 Shootas, Trukk, Ram
10 Shootas w/Bosspole Nob, Trukk, Ram
3x11 Sluggaz + Bosspole PK Nob, Trukk, Ram
FA

2x3 Buggies w/rokkits
HS

2x3 Kans w/zookas
Battlewagon w/Rolla, Big Shoota

2. Suck it up and keep playing and learning this list

3. Take my marines instead.

I know what the correct answer is, do you?

Comments (24)

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Hey,

I should start off by saying I'm not a very experienced 40K player. I also play BA but have a few mates who play Orks and I had a couple of thoughts looking at your list.

Despite the fact that generally speaking 2/3 games are likely to be Objective based, assuming your using the scenarios from the rule book, 20+ KPs is a lot to give away when that Kill point mission comes around. I guess maybe it could mean you don't use all the elements of your list to their max as you are trying to preserve some due to having a pretty likely KP deficit to the other player (them having less than you to loose). I'm not really au fai enough with the 'dex to be able to offer an example of something you could drop to optimise for KP missions but I think it could be a good route.

To add more CC punch you could change the Buggies for Deffkoptas, if my understanding of them is sound then upgrading them to include the buzzsaw makes them pretty mean in combat. I am open to correction there, but I have a feeling im right in that thought. 2 x 3 Deffkoptas with Rokkits and Buzzsaws, again I don't know the points but it might work.
Number 1 :)
Whatever the list and models, however good they are on paper, if all I want is charge my tactical marines instead of using double tap...
then I got the wrong units. We're not perfect machines, we make choices based on what we like and dislike. Have fun!

Number 2 is only good if you're training for something (or someone).

Number 3 : play whatever you want to play, what is the fun in playing something you don't like?

All in all, I'd go with number 1 unless you're already bored with Orks.
Remember the old Chinese wisdom, "Man with hole in pocket, feel cocky all day."
Some questions on the list...

1) Do all the nobz in the boyz groups have PK/BP's?
2) Are you giving any of the shoota mobz special weapons?
3) What's in your extra battle wagon? It looks like you have 5 trukk's full (in your latest list), but nobody in the heavy slot BW.

Suggestions (just my opinion).

1) Drop the two trukk's with shoota boyz, move them into empty battle wagon, give them 2 special weapons, and a PK/BP nob.

2) Make sure each wagon has armor plates, grot riggers, and a BS or rokkit. If points are available, consider a kannon so it can fire its str 4 defensive blast alongside the other gun.

3) Consider dropping the normal nob star and replacing with a meganob group. You lose cybork and FNP, but gain 2+, and PK's all around. The main disadvantage of meganobz (slow and purposeful) is nullified by being transported by the battle wagon. Considering how you setup the nob group, the meganobz might actually be cheaper.

4) Drop the dual HQ's. Keep just the big mek (give him cybork/BP) with the meganobz in one battle wagon, allowing the other group of shoota boyz in the other wagon to carry 2 heavy weapons.

5) Use extra points to add another slugga boyz/trukk/nob pk/bp group, or 3 more buggies.
2 replies · active 727 weeks ago
Q's
1. The 3 slugga squads do, yes. The others, no.
2. Nope.
3. The Big Mek, alone.
Put the shoota squads in the wagons. :P
Battle points is a terrible format for this list. >_>

But "Waaagh!" does not work with this army. Not at all. :P Personally, if I were you, I'd take option 2. I always like a challenge. ^^
The tournament Im going to soon have differentiated kill points, in other words your killpoints have a match point worth that depends on how many kill points you started the game with. This helps in games like your first, so a 20+ kill point army doesn't auto lose against a 9 KP army.

0-7 KP in army ---> 1,25 matchpoints per KP
8-9 KP in army ---> 1 matchpoints per KP
10-12 KP in army ---> 0,8 matchpoints per KP
13-14 KP in army ---> 0,7 matchpoints per KP
15-16 KP in army ---> 0,6 matchpoints per KP
17-23 KP in army ---> 0,5 matchpoints per KP
24+ KP in army ---> 0,4 matchpoints per KP
1 reply · active 727 weeks ago
Why not just play VPs?
>Finally, I just want to throw down a counter argument to this. I know my Playstyle is Not a Unique and Special Flower but do you know what, this army just doesn't suit my play style
Not really the point to the article, to be honest. There's a world of difference between taking a list that fits the way you want to play and just bringing a bad list and defending it by saying "it fits my style."

Re: the list

I'm not sure why you have those small Boyz squads with no PK in them. What is it, exactly, they're doing? Gretchin would be better for holding objectives, larger squads in Wagons would be better for roaming shooty squads, and there's really no reason to take a Nob if you're not going to get a Klaw along with him. They just seem really awkward to me, like you were trimming points in the wrong places.

More Wagons, fewer Trukks would do you well, I think. Trukks just don't have the durability to survive... well, any incoming fire, really. Lacking that, flood the board with chassis. I don't feel the Kans add as much to that as other things (more Buggies, Wagons) could, as they aren't as fast as the rest of the stuff.
3 replies · active 727 weeks ago
First - I know that wasn't the full point of the article you posted but it did get my goat a little :)
Playstyle is very important. There are many players I have seen run tripe armies that just work for them - see the guy who tabled me :)

The boys without PK's are there for troops. In BP Events (and nova) you need > 4 troops to be able to reliably beat an opponent by a large margin. This list was put together by MVB and Arch, and I am simply Net-listing it. I agree however, Boys come with Nobs and PK's, thats standard kit. They actually worked out fairly well in a defensive shooting role, moreso than I anticipated.

Also agree with the Wagons > Trukks comment. I used to run 5 Wagons, dual nobstar but I am wanting to play something a little more finesse.
You mean just MVB :P.
If you just want them for scoring, why not run Gretchin instead? This is one time I totally agree with Fluger and many of the Ork advocates- Gretchin are one of the most cost-effective scoring units in the game.

Playstyle DOES matter- but it doesn't change what is or isn't a good army.
The plural of "antecdote" is not "data," as a freind of mine likes to say, but this is another tournament report that adds fuel to my smoldering NERDRAGE! about the current Kill Point system and tournament comp systems in general.

A fluffy, themed list (Kult of Speed) with no "deathstars," with a nice spread amongst all unit types on the force org chart and they hit you with a zero for army composition? Really!? Personally, I've been down on "comp" since third edition when my vanilla marine army (5-man command, tech with two servitors, 6x10 tacticals, 2x10 devastators, 2x10 assault) was accussed of being wholly broken and worth zero comp because it had too many men! Yes, a bog-standard battle company lifted straight out of the fluffy bits of the codex. :@
3 replies · active 727 weeks ago
You clearly don't know that army. :P It's the one I beat Kirby with. ^^
I don't care if its the army you beat Zun Tzu with, its made of clearly legal options and arrainged in a way that is both effective on the tabletop and thematically appropriate for the Orks. The idea that a tournament would penalize you for it is absurd. But, that's a rant for a different thread.
Hey hey hey! I was only joking. :(

But yeah, you have to remember the goal of comp has changed. No longer is it "powergamey, anti fluff" armies that get chimpunked, it's armies designed to win. Which sucks. Hell, comp sucks, but I'm in your boat before I go off on that rant. To a different thread! *foghorn*
If you combine the shoota boyz into a squad of 20 (incl. nob with PC) in a battlewagon you lower the KP, have much more effective shooting, far more protection and an extra roller - 19 will even give you room for your KFF - can be a moving bunker flanked by your kans ready to counter-rolla anything that gets close, giving protection to both the kans, (the rolla) and the shootas____I generally only run two trukks with slugga/choppa as disruption / strike teams for vulnerable (ie: small) units. I just find trukks awfully easy to kill, even when you get the KFF coverage..____and I know all the kids these days are running lootas... but I just find them very well worth the investment... popping transports for your zookas to pound the resultant crater bound dudes is very, very useful....____my two cents... (and definitely not worth more!)____
Well, the only person who got the answer Internet Right © is Archy - Option 2.
"Always play a list at least 20 times before you change it up"

Saying this, I am still seriously considering changing the list up. I am tossing up ideas at the moment, and need to assess them on paper a bit more and see how I feel.
2 replies · active 727 weeks ago
OK - the list I would run (I think)
HQ
Warboss, PowerKlaw, Cybork Body
Big Mek, KFF

Troops
4 x 12 boys, Nob, PowerKlaw, Bosspole, Trukk, Ram
6 NobStarz, Battlewagon, Deffrolla, Big Shoota
-All with Cybork, Painboy, Nob (PK), Nob (Kombiskorcha), Nob (Big Choppa, Waaagh banner), Nob (Big Choppa, Bosspole), Nob (Big Choppa)

FA
3 x 2 Rokkit Buggies

HS
2 x 3 Kans, Grotzookas
Battlewagon, Deffrolla, Big Shoota

Warboss and Nobs in 1 wagon. Big mek all by himself in the other. Split the threats.
Personnally I run 2x2 Rokkit Buggies and 1x2 Rokkit Koptas (w/ 1x saw) in FA. I have the impression that buggies are more durable, but koptas provide you with options. Either using them to snipe important threats (charge w/ a saw and die afterwards), to get side shots early on (24" scout move is not to be sniffed at) or using them in a similar role as buggies as a last resort (they are kind of expensive for that role alone).

I take it you strategy would be to unload the trukk boys midfield have them footslog behind the Kans and let yhe empty trukks annoy your opponents to death?
So, you lost the first game you ever played with this list, against a good player in the worst mission possible.

And then won all the others. What are you worried about here, really?
It is probably worth pointing out that said player is ranked 26th in the state and has a playing ability much higher than his ranking shows. Lyle is always a good opponent.

Option 4 - Grudge Tom (assuming there are an odd number of players, allowing me to play)
Of course it didn't help festers ego that I tabled Lyle 2 games later :)

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