Kirb your enthusiasm!

WEBSITE HOSTED AT: www.3plusplus.net

"Pink isn't a color. It's a lifestyle." - Chumbalaya
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit
"I buy models with my excess money" - Valkyrie whilst a waitress leans over him


Thursday, August 4, 2011

The Bolterback: Works for Space Wolves?

T3rr4


A while ago AbusePuppy and Hulksmash, amongst others, had quite a long discussion about the Bolterback being useful in Marine armies. I believe this largely stemmed from the increased use of the Psyback for Grey Knights where for an extra 10 points over the regular Bolterback, they gain S6 and Fortitude. Obviously this is a great buy and they were seeing widespread use which saw a lot of people think about using regular Bolterbacks in their army which prompted the ensuing discussion. You can see the article here.

I'm not going to reference that article much as I think it works fine alone. Both individuals and others raise excellent points. What we're going to look at specifically is the Bolterback in Space Wolves. Now Stelek has recently updated his 2000 point Space Wolves list and the major change here is Wolf Guard units and Bolterbacks over LasPlas Razorbacks. More firepower overall but a reduction in average strength and AP but a massive increase in ranged anti-infantry potential. 



This has always been something Space Wolves were never fantastic at - particularly the 'common netlists' seen about. They aren't crap - they after all have all those missiles with dual firing modes and lots of small blasts wreck guys just out of transports. It isn't however their strength and they rely more on their short-ranged Grey Hunters and assaults to deal with masses of infantry. They of course do this very well so we have to consider is this really an issue? Yes and no. You have the basic numbers to beat hordes and deal with the usual number of infantry you see. The combination of your normal ranged anti-tank shooting, missile blasts and Grey Hunters ensures this (not to mention Wolf Scouts, Thunder Wolf Cavalry, Land Speeders, etc.). At the same time, you are restricted tactically in not really having effective anti-infantry outside of double-tapping bolters and combat. Certainly mass missiles blasts will hurt clumped up squads but what if said squads are spread out? For example, opposing Long Fangs are going to get hit by one blast a turn so you have to either take their firepower until you get Grey Hunters/Wolf Scouts/etc close or shoot them with anti-tank firepower. Not ideal either way.

Now, Wolf Scouts can obviously help with this being able to get into your opponent's backfield. They however aren't a 100% thing. Not only can the dice say no but your opponent can wall off their backfield with ranged tanks and deny the Wolf Scouts access to your Long Fangs. Some short ranged dakka later and they are history though you have saved yourself from some firepower for a turn and changed your opponent's deployment - both good things. The question then becomes, if we want ranged anti-infantry, which we acknowledge is important, where do we get it from?

Space Wolves have limited options compared to other armies. They are using their Heavy Support for Long Fangs so cannot go for Dakka Preds. There are no Attack Bikes which to buy in squadrons or even regular bikers of any decency. No heavy weapons in their Grey Hunter squads. No Sternguard. They don't have fast tanks or Baal Predators. They don't have easy access ordnance. No mass storm bolters on every guy. They are really restricted in what they can bring to handle infantry at long ranges to Land Speeders, Dreadnoughts, Razorbacks and Wolf Guard. Land Speeders in anti-infantry formats (2x heavy bolters) will put out a bunch of wounds but aren't too flash and Typhoons which have decent anti-infantry, have the same problem as the Long Fangs - blast reliance. Dreadnoughts don't really pack a lot of ranged anti-infantry weapons into a single platform and aren't super cheap (unlike say the Land Speeders). Wolf Guard are a great option in terms of flexibility and have heavy weapon choices (Cyclone Missile Launcher) and the very effective storm bolter which helps with anti-infantry up to 24". None of these are fantastic for putting the hurt on infantry at large ranges however. Wolf Guard with stormbolters certainly help improve it and expand the range but Grey Knights as an army have storm bolters and can struggle with this.

So we look to the Razorback. At 40 points base it's cheap. It's easily accessible (we already have squads) and easily spammable. With twin-linked status it's reliable and it has the 36" range to help poke infantry far away. With only three shots it's not that scary but if you take 4-5+ of them, those shots add up. Ask Grey Knight players with Psyback. Is it great? Personally no. It's reliable extra wounds but you are losing 2-3 AP2, higher strength shots by not taking LasPlas. In Stelek's list he has obviously increased his overall ranged firepower with more missiles to offset this which is good and increased the ranged anti-infantry the list has massively over the previous incarnation. Both are obviously very important for getting maximum use out of the Bolterback.

Ultimately this is why I think, whilst still not a fantastic unit, the Bolterback may have some place in the Space Wolves army. Not having played it myself I cannot currently comment to its tabletop efficiency but I can say that Grey Knights love their Psybacks. Whilst Bolterbacks don't have the utility against tanks the Psyback does with S5 guns nor the ability to instant death T3 models (bloody FNP), Space Wolves can often need help dropping non-clumped infantry units at range (think MSU Marines). By altering lists so the Bolterback can be included, this can alleviate a weakness of many Space Wolf lists. You don't want to overdo this though and LasPlas RBacks should still be the 'go-to' choice to help generate more fire support for your Long Fangs. 

And before we end, credit needs to be given to players such as Spaguatyrine from the back 40k and Hulksmash from They Shall Know Fear whom have been running the Bolterback in Space Wolves for quite a while now. You aren't cool anymore guys, Stelek made it mainstream ;). I'm sure others have as well but we all care about who did it first! *nods sagely* So let's hear it. Do you think the Bolterback is a good way for Space Wolves to improve their anti-infantry or are there better options and how? Or do they not even need it? I know some people are against it *waves to TKE* so let's get some discussion going.

Comments (18)

Loading... Logging you in...
  • Logged in as
Personally I prefer TLAC over las/plas for the same reasons tk players are finding with psybacks as discussed above..
Plus, bolter weapons are just so much more, um... Marineier? Mariney? Marinesque? Is there anyway to turn that into an adjective?
2 replies · active 713 weeks ago
I believe 'Marinesish' is the word you were looking for.
I think the BolterBack does work for Wolves.

It is pretty much because of Grey Hunters. Whilst a Tac squad with one HW is never terrifying, it is scarier than no HW.

Then when you add in, as you mentioned, few Dreads due to fierce ELITE competition, and SUPPORT getting maxed out by the best unit in that slot eva! in Missile Fangs, you really force Grey Hunters to disembark to engage enemy infantry. That should always, ideally, be a choice, and not a compulsion.

Deldar, and a few units of Tau, Nids and Celdar, plus all Orks and Guard, actually get minced by the HB.
It is mostly MEq that laughs at them, which is exacerbated by MEq being 50% of the armies.
But Termies die to it just fine, when you consider the cost per wound factor. One wound is 40 pts of Termie, whereas two wounds is just 32 pts of Marine. That is a 125% increase in bang-for-buck :D
1 reply · active 713 weeks ago
Most people don't bring vanilla Terminators for that reason. Except BA, where you have to deal with FNP, which drops the Bolterback to being fairly useless.
spaguatyrine's avatar

spaguatyrine · 713 weeks ago

Nice post kirby.

As I have said in the past with space wolves. Almost every unit in the space wolf codex is good at what it does, so having the twin linked heavy bolter with a 5 man pack and flamer that costs 115 points to sit on your home objective is awesome. When you have other units that are higher priority targets such as longfangs, thunderwolves, rune priests, rhinos advancing towards you, etc, why would you shoot at the razorback? They do work well and have a place in a space wolves army list.

The issue I have with the list posted by stelek, is they now become a target. A priority when you have so many of them. It really isn't much different than the las/plas craze. Are they really meant to take out power armor?????? I don't believe so! ;)
I don't think it adds a ton of anti-infantry, honestly. Three TL S5 or 1-3 S7+ shots. At extreme ranges (>24"), the Bolterback has the obvious advantage against light infantry, but that's not the LasPlas's main target. SW _does_ have ranged anti-infantry options- Long Fangs can shoot Frag, they can take Typhoons and Cyclones, etc. And Grey Hunters do pretty excellent for close-in anti-infantry, so it's really only that middle ground that they have trouble with. Would it be nice if they had a Venom-equivalent to hose down backfield shooty squads? Sure, but the Bolterback isn't it; it gets two compared to the Venom's four and is less mobile.
Mia Foster's avatar

Mia Foster · 713 weeks ago

Very well written. As someone who occasionally withdraws from society to enjoy the finer things in life, I can say 'spot on!' For those of us who understand the point made by this article, we appreciate the value of breaking free from the closed-minded, fearful, materialistic people who have made such negative comments as these.
metalloveman's avatar

metalloveman · 713 weeks ago

Oh know a marine codex has a weakness, surly the end is nigh...
1 reply · active 713 weeks ago
Marines gonna marine.
The problem is that Wolves often come out on top vs MSU marines anyway, so they don't really need the "help" that the Bolterback provides. Instead of killing 0.4 marines per turn (approximately) then they could be killing APCs or MBTs with a Lascannon from turn 1, followed up by twin linked rapid firing plasma on turns 2-3+ and I think I know which is the better deal there. Yeah, 5 Bolterbacks might kill a LF squad over a turn or two (assuming no Terminator Wolf Guard to take every other hit on his 2+) but you've lost 5 Lascannon shots that could be popping enemy Razors and 10 linked plasma shots for their TWC/Grey Hunters. Not impressed by their performance in the Mirrormatch. Who else plays MSU Marines? Templars? Probably running 15+ Termies so that Plasma is a lot more useful than HBs. Razor BA? Have Priests so ignore anything that doesn't break FnP. Grey Knights on Foot? Not bad, but you only have 1-2 turns of outranging them before the Psycannon start blowing off weapons, and you've lost a lot of tools to deal with Psyflemen/Paladins. Mech GK? Their Bolterbacks are so much better than yours it's not even funny.

Against anything that's not MSU but still infantry based, I suggest that you already have the right tools in your normal list. 50+ Better Assault Marines deals with whatever survives your LFs and Las/Plas two/three rounds of shooting fairly easily.
I have had bolterbacks on my wolves for a while.

They are not impressive against marines. With 5 of them you are looking at what? 3 dead marines a turn?

They are however fairly cheap. If you were giving your marines a rhino anyway, they cost only 5 points more. And if you are transporting your marines in a rhino, they are simply better. You loose the 2 fire points, so you cant bunker your meltagun/flamer, but you suddenly gain more firepower than 2 bolter marines shooting from the firepoints. And as it was mentioned, the main use of grey hunters in a space wolf list is to deal with the enemy infantary.

So, in short - they are better than 2 grey hunters shooting from the top hatch against infantary, at longer range. But they force you to disembark if you have special weapons.

the problem becomes - how do you compensate the firepower you loose from shelving plasorbacks in favor of bolterbacks? They help quite a bit on this aspect, costing nearly half of their high S cousins. But you will still need to compensate for the fact that in the trade you will loose supression.
1 reply · active 713 weeks ago
I am just spitballing:

BolterBack and Missile Fang - 65 pts
LasPlasBack - 75 pts

Sometimes though, if you don't have ap2, you are in trouble....
"Space Wolves have limited options compared to other armies"

The Space Wolf codex is badly written. Sure it's got it's strong builds, but poor rules for a lot of units let it down. I can see it easily becoming a mono-build codex the further into it's lifecycle it goes, not to mention it's lack of flexibility will probably hurt it with 6th edition
spaguatyrine's avatar

spaguatyrine · 713 weeks ago

@ Bartali,

The space wolf codex is the best codex written in years. It has more flexibility than any other codex hands down. I can play any type of army I want with space wolves.

To All,

The list that was written by you know who was made for 1 thing: To fight other space wolf armies. Think about it. Razorbacks are perfect for taking out longfangs hiding in cover that lascannons, and missle launchers can barely do in cover. Razorbacks are decent against speeders. They are good against thunderwolves. He built a list that could go toe to toe with other space wolf armies. Which is pretty smart. It is not my cup of tea, but .....
1 reply · active 713 weeks ago
If you're not running Loganwing, Typically you're running Long Fangs in HS, TWC or Fenrisian Wolves if you're running anything at all from FA, Grey Hunters in Troops, and WG in one elites slot, and a Rune Priest as a HQ. Can't really see much wiggle room there ?

The Space Wolf codex suffers from units that are essential thus invalidating the rest of the slot (Long Fangs, WG taking an elites slot), or have units with badly written rules that are never fielded (anything with 'claw' in the title)
I run 3 HB Razorbacks in my army - 2 with plasma guns as the specials as they are more likely to camp at home or midfield, one with a melta gun to run with my rhinos. I find them useful - they are able to add some firepower outside of the 24" range against infantry, plus if I'm running up against a more gunline style army, I can run them up the flanks as required or camp an objective. Plus @ 40 points, they are a steal for small squads - one special firing out of a rhino doesn't mean much at all, especially when they are all 12" range or less on the move.

Las/Plas and Twin Las razorbacks certainly have their place depending on your build - for me they act as high AV anti tank early on in the game, and transports for the longfangs for dawn of war - but they become much higher level targets once you stick a lascannon on them, even empty, and the almost double the cost hurts - especially when av11 is so easy to kill. HB razorbacks can act as a screen, mobile firepower, and a few times useful sideshots into enemy transports. They certainly have your place, especially if you are running MSU hunters without wolfguard - 125 points for 5 men, plasma gun and razorback, that has use against most things. 135 points for 5 hunters, razorback, melta and MOTW - more aggressive and a good backup in case the rhino's get shot up or stranded.

Anyway, I like them.

Post a new comment

Comments by

Follow us on Facebook!

Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...