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Sunday, July 22, 2012

Tyranids in 6th Part 1: Something Different, Something Changed


So Tyranids and Sixth Edition. A lot of people are very vehement about all sorts of things on the subject; some think that 'Nids are completely screwed, others think it will be a godsend. Some think all-flyers are the way to go, others insist that this is the new dawn of the Tyranid Warrior. Some think that the army stays exactly like it was. Some of them seem to think that we are now living in Bizarro World and that bringing fifty models to the table makes you a horde army.

Most of these people are idiots. I don't claim not to be an idiot, but I am at least an idiot who is going to explain his idiocy out for you in detail so you can decide for yourself exactly why it is I'm dumb and wrong about things and clearly you have the better answer.

The two biggest shifts in how Tyranids need to look at list-building come straight out of the new rules, and the first of them is the alterations to Fearless. Now, there is a small downside here: you can't go to ground with those Termagants on an objective anymore and laugh at the enemy with your 2++ save, awwww. You still have ridiculous numbers of troops (even more so than before, as we'll soon see), so it's not really a huge loss. What you gained instead is almost impossible to understate: No Retreat is gone. Completely gone, with no replacement at all; Fearless means you simply don't care what the combat result was and you keep on fighting no matter what.

At first glance this isn't that big, but the truth is it's absolutely enormous. Our little bugs are now twice as effective at jumping into the enemy lines and delaying them- seriously, you are taking half as many casualties as you would have before. Killing twenty Gargoyles went from "eh, it'll take a little bit" to "well, I guess I'll be here for the rest of the game" for most units. You can charge monstrous creatures into fights with your little guys with impunity now as well, as multiple combats are no longer absurdly punishing to you. For horde armies, Fearless is simply amazing now and cannot be underestimated.

The second prong of this major shift are the changes to vehicles; undoubtedly anyone reading this article is fully aware of how omnipresent vehicles were in 5E and the problems this caused Tyranids, but 6E represents a major shift to this. That's not to say that vehicles will go away; certainly they are still going to be a big part of the game, but they aren't going to be the absolute pinnacle of all lists nor are they nearly as invulnerable as they were before. Hull points are one big part of this- they make it so that repeated glancing hits will cause significant damage and eventually kill a tank, and combined with hitting even the fastest of vehicles on a 3+ in combat it means anything that can get S4 in numbers becomes a real threat to vehicles of any kind.

Vehicles also lost a lot of utility in terms of what they can do for people, which can only benefit Tyranids; they can't contest points anymore and disembarking from them is much more limiting, both in terms of how you do so (no driving 12" and jumping out to blast something) and what you can do (if you disembark you aren't participating in the next assault phase.) Between these changes and those to vehicle survivability, you are likely to see a lot more hybrid and foot armies, against which Tyranids are much more comfortable fighting.

Trailing behind the big two somewhat but still rather important are the new psychic powers and defenses. Tyranids benefited doubly on this front: they gained access to a wide variety of powers that surpass their codex ones in most cases and their psychic defenses went from being extremely middling to one of the best. The 6+ chance to shut down their powers is obviously annoying, but since Hoods had been doing so on a 5+ virtually all the time before, this is really more of a boon than a nerf. Most armies (bar Eldar/SW) being unable to shut down our buff powers is a very big deal and contributes greatly to the strength of the Biomancy discipline. (I covered the Tyranid power selections in more detail in an earlier article and thus won't be discussing them much in this series.) With access to more psykers than any other army in the game, Tyranids are poised to take excellent advantage of the new rules and the flexibility they offer you in changing your powers game-to-game.

The changes to cover saves have been a major point of discussion, but they aren't as clear-cut as they're sometimes portrayed; yes, generic cover is 5+ now, not 4+, but that neglects the fact that a LOT of types of cover still give the old 4+ save. Ruins, walls, wreckage, hills, buildings, and most types of "artificial" cover are all still 4+ cover, including the Aegis lines you can purchase. You will still be seeing a lot of 4+ saves being thrown around in your games, you just will also be seeing other numbers sometimes as well. Model-by-model cover is a weird one and certainly is painful to Tyranids, who (with their big units and mixed small critters/big bugs) were one of the best at taking advantage of the old cover rules to get saves absolutely everywhere. However, the reduction to the durability of enemies that likewise rely on cover saves works quite well for our many torrent guns like the Devourer, which can inflict pretty brutal casualties these days. To be honest, the cover changes are not really a big deal for Tyranids compared to many of the other factors, so at the end of the day I wouldn't worry too much about them, at least not in the list-building phase of things.

Related to that are the changes when moving through terrain itself. It hasn't been widely discussed, but not only is dangerous terrain a lot less dangerous now (you get your armor save) but Move Through Cover, which is plentiful in the Tyranid army, now completely ignores tests for Dangerous Terrain in addition to giving you the improved bonus for Difficult. (It should be noted, however, that it does NOT make you any faster when charging into cover, which is incredibly annoying. However, Dangerous Terrain alone does not change your initiative when going into cover, so it is entirely possible to cheat past your lack of grenades in that way with jump troops.)

Speaking of assaults, did anyone else notice that assault distances are- oh. Oh, I guess you did. Every single one of you. So yeah, assaults potentially have a very long reach these days, but at the cost of reliability in-close. (This article has a very good set of tables for determining what your numbers look like for making various charges, ignoring whatever casualties you might pull from Overwatch, and it includes the numbers for Fleet and such, although it doesn't have Difficult Terrain included.) While many people lament the loss of the guaranteed 6" charge, Tyranids are so used to having to run into cover that it barely even matters for them- much more relevant is the chance to declare charges a turn earlier and try for long shots because the upside potential (lock a unit in combat) is so much higher than the downside (take a casualty or two on your expendable guys from Overwatch.) Now, don't get me wrong- Overwatch can be very painful... sometimes. But rolling for sixes is an incredibly unreliable thing and most of the time you'll escape effectively unharmed. Remember you can station a character at the front of the unit and use them to LOS away any incoming wounds to ensure that a random casualty doesn't put you out of your charge range.

Pulling casualties works into the issue with charges and such in that removing from the front will sometimes push you back enough to lose an opportunity; however, Tyranids are excellent for bringing large numbers of models to the table and covering huge sections of board, so more often than not you will have plenty of guys to pull from the front rank before you're losing much distance. It does make the shoot -> charge combo harder against bad players, but you probably didn't need the help there anyways, so it's not a problem. Since Tyranids have some (okay, one) barrage weapons, they can also use the model-removal rules for those to their advantage, trying to snipe out special weapons and such.

With vehicles significantly downgraded, Monstrous Creatures are looking a lot more viable, although they do still suffer from some problems. Smash replacing 2d6 penetrations is largely a wash- yes, your 2d6 was better for killing vehicles, but since you hit vehicles so much more often now and auto-pen most all of them if you do choose to Smash, things work out quite well. Remember that you can Smash Attack against any target, not just vehicles, so if facing a multiwound character, seriously consider making use of it. Easier cover (only needing 25% coverage rather than 50% and always getting it from area terrain) makes many of them- especially the Trygon and Tervigon- a lot tougher as well. Hammer of Wrath and Fear are both straight-up buffs, but neither of them is particularly big; HoW will almost always be one more wound, but since it doesn't cut through armor most anything that matters will shrug it off, though it is amusing against tanks. Fear... well, basically everything in the game is either immune to it or so weak in a fight it's irrelevant.

However, one strike against MCs is the new uses of grenades; with virtually every MEQ army in the game getting Krak Grenades for free, individual troopers are now a genuine threat to your MCs, as they get to "swing" at S6 rather than S4 now and often attack ahead of you; the fact that they only get one attack is irrelevant, as most guys only get one attack anyways. Meltabombs are actually less of a threat because they strike last and can usually only be gotten on a single model- that single model will consistently get a wound on you, but that's hardly any different from the buried Power Fists we've dealt with for years now.

One of the big complaints has been that Genestealers can't assault out of reserve, which frankly I just don't get. Well, okay, I sorta do because I know that was a very popular thing to try, but honestly it was never a very good strategy- competent players could easily block one board edge of and insure you arrived 72" away from them, which was basically death for your 'Stealers, so the actual effect on play is pretty minor in that regard; it's actually much more problematic for some of the other outflanking units, like Troops (especially Tervigons) sent out through Hive Commander, who used it to act as a lone threat element supporting the main force. The loss of this option is unfortunate, but considering many other factors it's really not so much of a blow as it could've been.

One of the other less-touched on subjects is that of Independent Characters; certainly there's been lots of talk about challenges, wound allocation, etc, but it's easy to forget just how much of a shift in the survivability of ICs in combat there was. Whereas before being one was basically a sentence to death by Power Fist, now it's like a free extra save protecting you from all forms of harm so long as any member of your squad is alive. With the Tyranid Prime clocking in just over 100pts with Sword/Whip/Regen, he can be an absolute beast against enemies in melee, cutting through all armor saves (even Terminators), winning challenges like a boss and cutting through regular guys like paper. With the ability to take (and make) large squads of Termagants for him to hang out in, soaking up wounds and keeping combat resolution from getting bad and letting the enemy escape, Primes become a prime (hurr!) choice for the HQ slot.

One concern for the new Tyranid builds is enemy psychic defense- with the widespread ability to ally in SW and Eldar, both of which can give any psychic army fits, there is a very real concern that you will face up against an army where you simply can't use your main abilities (either for fear of Perils or because you're getting shut down most of the time), and that's not something you can really afford to have happening. However, looking at most of the army lists that are being posted and used, neither of those allies are really prime choices for what you want to add to a force- Eldar don't bring much to an army other than that Farseer (and he is extremely vulnerable to simply being shot down by Hive Guard or Devourers) and SW are a bit too similar to other Marines to really be a prime contender for adding in. Thus, while it's certainly possible we'll see these allies, I don't think they are going to be common choices.

However, that's not to say there aren't some major stumbling blocks for Tyranids in 6E, and I think it's important to look at the two of them very carefully, because it's quite possible they will spell the viability-or-nonviability of the army in the end. The first is fairly simple: flyers. Currently, flyers are the king of the game; if you have/can deal with flyers, you are allowed to play in the big boys league; if you don't or can't, you are at best a tier 2 army, it's as simple as that. With their immunity to assault and virtual nonpresence of skyfire in the game, the current environ basically dictates that an army without flyers of its own will be unable to handle any sort of strong flyer-based army, and unfortunately this is the situation Tyranids are in. Flying Monstrous Creatures simply can't compare- not only can the be grounded by a lucky hit (a problem flyers don't have), they are much more expensive in general (180-300pts rather than 100-200pts), and don't have the ability to deposit troop units where they are needed late-game the way flyers do. If this situation is rectified- say, if a FAQ or other new release gives widespread availability of skyfire to all armies- flyers will recede more into the space of similar specialized threats (like Land Raiders, etc) that require particular weapons to deal with and Tyranids difficulty in dealing with them will simply be one consideration of many. However, if things remain as they stand, Tyranids simply won't be able to participate in "real" competitive play.

The other big concern for the army are the deployment types and in particular Hammer and Anvil. Dawn of War is obviously familiar and not really a big deal; Vanguard Strike can be annoying but ends up being a major skill-tester, allowing for some very poor deployments when done wrong. Hammer/Anvil, however, gives shooting armies a pretty huge advantage, as it leaves them with a full 48" of board space to play around in- even shorter-range shooting forces can simply keep backing up and firing away, making full use of the extreme depth of the board. For Tyranids this is a major problem because they rely on getting close and making charges, and having to walk through 30"+ of board before even being able to affect the enemy is going to be extremely painful for them, all the more so if the enemy has first turn. Now, Night Fight mitigates this a little bit, but given how easily most shooting armies can shrug it off, you can't really rely on it to protect you.

Conclusions
So where does all of this leave us in terms of what we want the "new" Tyranid army to look like? Well, somewhat surprisingly, it looks rather a lot like the old one. Hive Guard are still amazing; so are Tervigons. Tyranid Primes and Tyrants with Devourers are still going to be leading the forces. A lot of new contenders have broken in, though; Zoanthropes can provide some excellent buffing for a reasonable price, Stealer/Broodlord squads can get you rolls on the Biomancy or Telekinesis tables along with a reasonable melee threat. Gargoyles, Termagants, and perhaps even Hormagaunts make themselves known as excellent forward threats, able to delay and inconvenience the enemy for a very low price. Biovores are looking extremely handy, bringing a way to damage infantry at range and occasionally act as scoring units while remaining cheap and safe.

The new Tyranid army is going to be much more horde-focused than the previous iteration, I believe; whereas before spamming out T6 monsters was the only way we could realistically compete with mech armies (even if some of them did give us a bunch of little bugs to go with them), now it is much more viable to have a forward line of small critters that you throw at the enemy to create problems and break up their game. In fact, it may even be that you want to be purchasing squads of them well above the minimum sizes- squads of twenty to thirty will not all that uncommon, I think, although there will be a fine balance between getting full use out of your buff powers and avoiding having to multicharge things (and thus being worse/useless in combat.) Despite the presence of Mycetic Spores and similar abilities, Tyranids have virtually zero reason to try for any kind of reserve build; some units can benefit from being held in reserve, but for the most part doing so is merely awkward and holds little benefit.

What we'll be looking for in the next two articles covering the review of the army is a number of different features/needs for our force, including:

  • Fast threats to pressure shooting armies with, both large and small.
  • Shooting of our own to inhibit enemy firepower and break stalemate situations against other melee armies.
  • Ways to generate resilience, either by artificial cover saves, psychic powers, abilities, or other means.
  • Units to deal with diverse enemy threats, including duel characters, torrent or blast/template shooting, rock/deathstar units, mobile armies, vehicles (especially high-AV ones), and gimmicks.


I'll be discussing each of the units individually and looking at how they function, but with a strong eye towards how they fill one of the above roles in the army; some things that have good numbers in a vacuum simply don't end up being all that helpful when considered in context. Where this is true, I'll try to talk about the hows and whys, but understand that trying to list why a unit isn't good is often about as fruitful as explaining why something is impossible: in the end, it doesn't matter, because we don't care about not-good things, only good things, and if you want to join that club you've got to be able to prove yourself.


Final Thoughts
So are Tyranids strong now? Or at least viable? Will they be a real contender in 6E in a way they only were in 5E for a short time? I can't say, to be honest. The meta is in absolute chaos right now and the next several codex releases will do a lot to point the edition in a particular direction- people's expectations for 5E were drastically changed by the SM and IG book releases, after all. Certainly Tyranids have some significant strengths this time around, but they also have some major problems, and if some of the prime threats (like flyers) aren't somehow brought under control it seems unlikely that they- or any other army not running those threats in abundance- are going to stand any kind of chance.

Separating the game from the meta is hard; Meltaguns didn't change at all from 4E to 5E, but they went from being one of the most-maligned special weapons to the auto-pick, and it was because of changes to the rules and to the game that were not directly involved with them at all. Everyone is still trying to get a grasp on 6E, myself included, but I think there are some trends starting to emerge that are pointing us in the right direction, so I'm going to try and make some assessments based on those in the next couple of posts in this series as I review the specific units. Unlike my previous review, I'm not going to try and touch on specific builds at this point, as I just don't think we have enough information to do anything like that- it's hard enough to know what is good in our own book, much less other people's and the sort of threats we'll need to deal with.

That said, I'm going to do my best to try, because I think there are some broad trends we can draw from the way things look now and those are useful in creating a first version of our army. Over the next two parts I'll be looking at the units and giving them their notes on how they changed and how they function in the new edition, although it will be quite a bit shorter (hopefully) than my original Tyranid review was, with the second part covering HQs and Troops and the third finishing with Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support.

Comments (44)

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I would say there are a few Tyranid units that really shine under 6e so far:

Tervigons - always a staple of most lists, these now have the capacity with biomancy to be cc terrors.

Biovores - provide extremely valuable long range sniping ability - do not underestimate the effectiveness of dropping 3 pieplates over a heavy weapons/infanty squad in the enemy backfield, aiming the pieplate at the model you want dead. AP4 barrage also really racks up the casualty count against a lot of xenos armies with armor and often cover save denial.

Raveners - holy god are these guys fast now - being able to scoot through difficult terrain like it wasn't there makes their threat bubble enormous. And, with the changes in fleet, sticking a weapon in their chests is actually worth considering now. 5 Raveners with rending claws and deathspitters clocks in at 225 points, but with 12" cover ignoring move, 15 S5 shots and a long charge range, even into cover, they can hit the enemy where it hurts most.

Hive Guard - were awesome, stayed awesome.
11 replies · active 662 weeks ago
CuriousOne's avatar

CuriousOne · 663 weeks ago

I still feel as if the medium critters suffer from big Instant Death problems. Raveners, Warriors and so on all drop so quickly to missiles that I can't imagine them being worth taking no matter how fast they are. 5 Raveners like you describe have some scary damage output but will they ever reach the enemy alive?
If they are firing their missiles at those creatures they are not firing at the monstrous creatures and now also the horde of little dudes that will be assaulting them next turn. I am personally okay with this.
Thats a well and good argument lethlis, but look at it from the other players perspective to. Ill shoot at your mid bugs all day long with missiles cause you know what? I know it will kill them faster and the mid size bugs are still expensive. Sure your large bugs are alive, but my missiles are removing 200+ pt squads. Its still a win.
The question is what is more reliable damage. I am still going to be getting a 5+ cover save. A missile will have 2/3 hit 5/6 wound 2/3 failed save. So on average 3 missiles are required to kill one warrior. So to get that 200 points would require 15 missiles, all having line of sight to the same target. You will get that for one, maybe two turns before the little guys are upon you tying you up and preventing you from shooting. So if you decide to spend a good chunk of your best shooting at my slower units that are going to be a threat later instead of what is going to be in your face next turn I can live with that. Heck my warriors always showed up in their deployment zone via spore/outflank so the swarm will already be ready to engage before they show up. Turn two assaults are not unrealistic at all with a tyranid army.
WestRider's avatar

WestRider · 662 weeks ago

You've got to go for full on Krak Saturation. Pretty much everything in your Army needs to be either T4 MultiWound or 3+ Sv MCs.

At that point, each Krak Missile that gets through kills 35-50 Points worth of Ravener or Warrior, or 35-50 Points worth of MC. It works out pretty much the same no matter where you point them, it just looks worse when it's the Warriors or Ravs and Models are actually getting pulled off the Table instead of just Wound Counters piling up to MCs.
The problem is that you're paying non-insignificant points for those Raveners and Missiles/etc are VERY effective against them. One Missile kills about 1/3 of a Ravener (10/27, assuming cover); shooting little bugs it's roughly half as effective (assuming two models hit and cover again) from a pure points killed perspective. From a threat perspective they are also "winning" because the Ravs are the more immediate threat to them, since they can charge much further and do more damage in general.
WestRider's avatar

WestRider · 662 weeks ago

It's about the same effectiveness, Point for Point, shooting Missiles at MCs or Warrior types. Little bugs are definitely better off, but they die so much faster to basic firepower, so that's a tradeoff, too.
Enlargingcloud's avatar

Enlargingcloud · 662 weeks ago

The fact is, most balanced armies have mixed firepower. Its a pretty basic concept that WestRider emphasized.

The fact is, the units that are included in the most effective tyranid tournament list are Tervigons and Hive Guards.
Adding target saturation to prolong the life of these units is important.

Also, regarding your gaunt example, consider this. The majority of powerful armies have long-medium ranged anti-infantry (thanks to the new rapid fire rules). Termagants rarely soak up missile shots by themselves. They will eat the guns that are only effective against them: gauss, bolters, pulse rifles, splinters etc.

Just because a missile is somewhat more effective against a ravener in your example where 2 gaunts get hit (which I think is uncommon), does not mean that raveners are not useful target saturation for monstrous creatures.

Also it should be considered that other units such as hive guards, tervigons, and flyrants, are all units that can be brutal in both the early and late game more or less. Flyrants can move forward and pressure enemies well while destroying tanks, hive guards can ruin tanks and remove an army's mobility, while tervigons create troops and then buff up other tyranids with catalyst.

In my opinion, if I was faced with raveners, I would prefer to have other units ready to deal with them in close combat or with close ranged shooting like bolter/meltaguns. The dilemma I would be faced with would be how much firepower can I throw into the raveners and what other targets can i afford to shoot this turn.

I think that raveners will turn out to be a very effective unit. Also it should always be considered that against armies that lack str8 long ranged firepower (or have few very powerful anti-tank shots, like tau and railguns) raveners will be way ahead.

Generally the only army that puts out a ridiculous amount of missiles that I have seen is Space Wolves and Grey Knight dreadnought lists. Most other armies have a more balanced set of weapons, which will cause these armies trouble.
>Generally the only army that puts out a ridiculous amount of missiles that I have seen is Space Wolves and Grey Knight dreadnought lists.

Remember that other guns do a lot of damage to them as well- Autocannons, Lascannons, etc, are all pretty painful as well (if not quite as common.) IG, GK, and Orks will put large numbers of wounds on them as well; also Dark Eldar and most other shooting armies. The problem is that Ravs (as well as other T4 multiwound) have weak defenses now with the shift of cover saves/MCs tilting against them in two different ways. Without the ability to effectively exploit their multiwound status with allocation tricks, I question just how viable they'll be.

That's not to say they won't be viable at all, but with competition from Gargoyles (who are excellent) as a fast assault unit that can dodge terrain, I'm not sure what role they have to play.
If I'm a boxer, and my opponent decides to keep blocking my jabs with his solar plexus at the expense of guarding his face, I'm ok with that. He's still getting punched in the gut.
Yep and he is taking those gut shots but you are ignoring the uppercut that is gonna come for the KO
Awesome analysis! The thought put into your discussion is evident. I look forward to the rest of your articles!
Shas'o Scattershot's avatar

Shas'o Scattershot · 663 weeks ago

This article is too informative - i had to read it two times and i'm still absorbing all of the info. I can't wait for the next articles
I agree with most of your points, but I think you understate the loss of charge from Outflanking - while it's true that most of the times you succeeded with an Outflank charge, there was a bad/new player on the other side, remember that many tournaments use a 0-20 scoring system. Those easy 20-0's are really valuably to get before the swiss system kicks in.
Against better players you still had an 18" threat zone from each flank, affecting the game from deployment and herding your opponent into the middle of the table. Which you could build a strategy around.
Plus, in many games you have objectives within 18" from the short table edges. Now your opponent can just set up camp there.

And I don't think the reserve builds are dead. I need a few more games, but it looks promising so far.
1 reply · active 662 weeks ago
The way to beat outflanking wasn't to stay in the center, it was to group on one side and block the board edge so he couldn't enter and get a charge on your infantry. 'Stealers wreck a Rhino or two, explosions maybe kill some of them, and you Bolter them to death.

Rolling n00bs at tourneys... eh, that's another subject entirely.
Can't wait to see a 'Nid list build by you, AbbusedPuppy
3 replies · active 662 weeks ago
Enlargingcloud's avatar

Enlargingcloud · 662 weeks ago

Does he play tyranids?
I, uh, have been playing Tyranids since 2Ed (admittedly with a break during 3E.) That's kinda why I write about them.
Enlargingcloud's avatar

Enlargingcloud · 662 weeks ago

Very good to know :)
Has anyone thought about using the Onslaught Power to allow Flyrants to enter reserve, shoot and re-enter reserve in the same turn?
Really good if you are dealing with enemy flyers coming on the board, in the following turn.
2 replies · active 662 weeks ago
WestRider's avatar

WestRider · 662 weeks ago

Onslaught is Run, then Shoot. Would sent the Flyrant off the field before he got to shoot.
Funny for Vector Strikes though
Pretty much nailed it so far AP. I'm really hoping Nids get at least a modest, ~100 point flyer, as that would go a long way in filling their biggest need. That way, you could use a dakka-fex brood to protect the bulk of your force, and the flyers to get at anything outside it's threat range.

Also, for the love of God give FMC's skyfire. I mean, seriously.

One thing I've been playing around with in my head is mass deathspitters. On warriors. The twin-linked variety that can be upgrade to on Myceptic Spores. Not sure if the bugs can get it efficiently enough yet to pose a real threat to Flyers, but it's right at that 5 strength spot that semi threatens rear AV 10. Could be another area to look at to compliment the other options.
6 replies · active 662 weeks ago
Hilariously the Harpy can't even benefit from Skyfire, as all its guns are blasts.

Warriors and Spores are just too vulnerable with 5+ cover, especially with MCs getting it as well. Also the TLDS on a Spore is... 10pts? 15pts? For a gun that will get to shoot once at a target not of your choice. Don't do it, mang.
Yeah your probably right. Kinda just slinging things around to find something that will stick at the moment.

Harpy can have the 4 shot S5. If it had Skyfire, Vector Strike sides, land and shoot that at the rear would be....well, it would be better then what they get now :) . Ugh, doesn't seem like enough though (maybe 1 to 2 HPs/turn against Scythes?). Skyfire would be much more significant for the Hivey.
You know that's a golden opportunity for a FAQ fix right there. I can't remeber which is which (Cluster Spines and...something) but if I remember correctly only the Harpy and T-Fex have the option. Either the blast or the 4 shot S5 deal. Give that sucker skyfire and knock its strength up a couple notches, maybe to S7. Now you've just buffed an unpopular weapon option _and_ unpopular models at the same time. Then Harpy could us Vector+TLHVC for ground and Vector+New Skyfire weapon against air. Similarly T-Fex could rupture ground targets or pewpew air targets.

/Sigh. Not that its going to happen anytime soon.
Spike Salvo is awful; even if they had Skyfire, I'd never take it because four BS3 S5 shots is never going to kill anything relevant. Even Vector Striking you average... less than once glance per turn against the AV11 fliers and the AV12 ones you still can't hurt.

If it was S6, maybe, but even then it's very mediocre. Basically, the Harpy has the same problem as a lot of other units: its numbers are just a bit too weak to be worthwhile. At its current points total it needed to be something like S6 and 3+ save to really be worthwhile.

As it stands, Gargoyles.
Yeah, don't disagree.

6th Edition iteration of Harpy seems like a pretty awesome anti-troop monster where Nids desperately need an anti-flyer solution. Vector+Bombs seems like fun, and then land for some barbed strangler action (if you can do all 3, can't remember the rules on bombs). The 24" move should make the bombs much easier to use. But, this is all fine and dandy if we need more help killing troops, which sadly we don't.
You can potentially Vector Strike as part of your movement, poopbomb them at the end of it (the Harpy has unique rules for bombs that don't work the same as normal ones) and them fire your gun at them as well.
I think it's kind of a shame that the Harpy isn't useful at all when it comes to fighting Flyers. Since all it can get are Blast weapons nothing it has can hit them.

Although, I'm kinda curious why you haven't mentioned that Flying MCs can fire in a 360 arc, and thus have an easier time shooting rear armor?

Albeit, this only affects half the Flyers (Valk/Vendetta) in the game in any meaningful way, it's still better than nothing. At least the Devourer Flying Tyrant can still pile on the glances on those ones.
1 reply · active 662 weeks ago
I redact my statements. I didn't even notice that Flying MCs don't get Skyfire.
I know it's too early to to lists now but I'm very curious if it's possible to do a heavy psyker comp list for nids. I like that theme so it would be fun if it's possible. I have made a first draft of a core section of psykers that is the base of the army, you can then ad additional units.

2 Flyrants, wings, 2xdevourer
3 Zoan
2 Tervigons, 3 powers ( Troops)
2 Broodlords (each with a stealer unit)

This section will cost around 1100 points (incl 100 p gaunts). You can then ad Hive guards, stealers, gargoyles etc.

Any thoughts are welcome!

/Martin
3 replies · active 662 weeks ago
For a list like that, I would do something more along these lines:

1-2 Tervigons
Zoeys (quite possibly on foot)
Termagants + Tervis (probably two of each)
Stealers/Broodlord (1-2, depending)
Gargoyles or Raveners

Tervis give you more little bodies to buff and as many powers as a Tyrant would and cost you a lot less. Your troops fill up the field and BLs try and keep out of sight to pounce on something while making use of powers. Zoeys on foot are there because you can't use maledictions/blessings the turn you arrive from reserve (and those are mostly long enough range to hide them somewhere), although I'm not sure if that's the way to go yet. Ravs/Gargs provide the early threat to let your little mans push into midfield and hold the enemy away from objectives.
Ok, but don't you need the tyrants as anti flyers?
Tyrants aren't really going to stop flyers- even if you haven't taken any other wounds at all, three Vendettas (or whatever) stand a pretty fair chance of nuking them off the table, and your Tyrants are averaging... less than one glance each against the AV12 ones. (A little over a glance against AV11.) That simply isn't going to solve your problem, and for 500pts you really can't afford to take a solution that doesn't work.

Flooding the field with Termagants, on the other hand, is potentially more viable, and with a flyer-heavy list you can spam Telekinesis rolls hoping for Oburation and pew-pew them out of the sky. If you're running four Tervis, two Broodlords, and six Zoeys, that should yield enough powers to hopefully shoot down one flyer per turn (since Crush and Assail both have low, if not zero, chances of doing some damage.) Are you happy with that plan? Not really, but you do what you gotta, and it at least gives you better odds of bringing them down.

Hive Guard are your "best" bet for killing flyers, and even they are pretty mediocre at it. Flyers suck for 'Nids right now, there's not a lot you can do.
Great Articel. Let me ad two things:

1. When going to ground in area terrain you get +2 cover instead of +1. This means in 5+ cover you end up with the same 3+ save you got last edition. Not everybody can or wants to go to ground, but this is another reason the changes to cover are more of a wash, then a real problem.

2. The answer to flyers is camping on objectives in 5 of 6 missions. This is how to do it:

- Place all your markers in, or near area terrain. Try to place them close together.

- Get some Tervigons and let them make Termagants. Have your Tervigons with a screen of FnP Gargoyles assault and contest the
enemy objectives. Meanwhile your Termagants enter area terrain around your objectives. They will soon be out of synapse, so they lose fearless and can go to ground for 3+ cover saves (in 5+ terrain). Even when lurking they still move towards terrain or stay there.

- In the end an army with a lot of points tied up in flyers, will not (!) be shooting you with flyers turn 1, turn 2 if you went first and turn 3 with flyers who missed their 3+ reserve roll. Then they may shoot Termagants in cover. Good luck :) .

- Finally the Flyers might drop scoring/contesting units... But who can do that?
-- Necrons: likely Warriors or Immortals
-- Imps: Some poor Guardsmen
-- Space Marines/Grey Knights: Marines or even Terminators
To counter this I suggest to keep some Genestealers close to your objectives to charge anything your Termagants can`t deal with. And use reserved assaulters like Trygons to either assist on your own objectives or on the enemys depending on how the battle goes.

When you use these basic principles I feel that actually the army with the flyers is at a disadvantage.
- They lose potential for alpha strike.
- Flyers are really limited in their movement, so dont think they can always shoot what they like.
- When flyers go into hover mode to drop their passengers or move into a better position for shooting, they can be shot like expensive normal Skimmers and in assault you hit them on 3+ now!

Hope this helps.
6 replies · active 662 weeks ago
1. Fearless units can't go to ground, so most Tyranids are unable to benefit from the new area terrain rules.If you take yourself out of Synapse, you are risking a Ld6 morale test sending you off the board- even with a 3+ save it's not hard to cause sufficient wounds.

2. This will depend on what the enemy is- IG is perfectly capable of dealing so many wounds to you that you can't just sit on an objective and look at them. That doesn't mean they're unbeatable, just that "sit and wait" isn't a viable strategy. All of the flyer-heavy armies bring good torrent and/or blast shooting to push us off of objectives. (Also keep in mind that any competent IG player will be bringing his reserves in on a 2+ thanks to Astropath.)

Keeping guys near objectives to push the dropped dudes off is a nice thought, but most opponents are probably going to shoot those Genestealers/etc. The flyer itself is quite capable of doing so (Vendettas can fire two HBs and two Lascannons at you, remember, all at BS4) and the disembarked unit has a pretty good chance of dealing with them as well.

Beating flyers for 'Nids is largely about controlling large swathes of the board and taking advantage of their limited firing/turn arcs, but there are ways around this sort of thing for them as well. You can't rely on having superior skill to every opponent.
Just on the topic of Astropaths/Advisors, is the Officer of the Fleet worth it in 6th, do you think? Reducing enemy reserves from 3+ to 4+ is cool, but you pay 30pts for it. Reducing enemy reserve rolls by 1 actually costs more than them being able to re-roll reserves from a Communications Relay. Thoughts?
If you're bringing flyers of your own (which you probably are), no; you want their flyers to arrive first and then yours to come on and laser them down. If, for whatever reason, you aren't using flyers, then an Officer can help break them up into manageable chunks.
Unless there's something I'm missing, Vendettas are still BS3. It's just the Vets who jump out who are BS4.

Doesn't invalidate any of the points you made, but I thought it worth mentioning.
Hmm, thought they had Strafing Run; I guess not.
The Termagants in Question, as well as the Genestealers are both not fearless by them selves, so that part does work.
The Termagants are rather small units like 6 models to begin with and pretty much come for free from Tervigons. When the opponent starts to use 100+ point flyers to kill thouse, the rest of your army is ready to win.

I mean sure a 140 point Vendetta likely kills 4 free Termagaunts in cover, but hey make it 6-8 Termagants and it might even take 2 Vendettas. So 3 Vendettas plus Astropath (=450 points of super elite chease) struggle to kill two units of Termagants per turn.

2 Stormravens with ideal equipment against hordes plus Aegis defence for improved comms (=570 points) are a bit tougher, but 570 points gives us this:

Tervigon 175pts (HQ), Tervigon 175pts (HQ), Tervigon 175pts (troops), 10 Termagants 50 pts (troops) plus about six(!) small units of spawned Termagants (=575 points)

Thouse Stormravens never ever win the objective game.

Necron and Ork flyers are best against Termagants but really thouse 3+ cover saves are still a bitch. Can`t be arsed to do the math now but its like shooting Space Marines, just that Termagants cost somewhere between zero and five points a piece.

I don`t suggest sit and wait for the whole army, just for thouse smallish Termagant units spawned by Tervigons. The core of a list could look like this:

HQ: 2xTervigon+FnP
Troops: 1xTervigon+Fnp, 10 Termagants
Fast: 3x20 Gargoyles+Adrenal Glands
=995 points.

All the above charges the enemy, while the produced Termagants hang back. Not easy to stop. And this is just the core. You got no elites yet, and 4 troop slots left.
Excellent article AP. Makes me want to drag the swarm out of retirement...

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