Kirb your enthusiasm!

WEBSITE HOSTED AT: www.3plusplus.net

"Pink isn't a color. It's a lifestyle." - Chumbalaya
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit
"I buy models with my excess money" - Valkyrie whilst a waitress leans over him


Monday, August 20, 2012

Metatransition - Tesla spam Necrons

40k Nation

Tesla spam in 5th was about putting as much tesla on the table to simply destroy vehicles through weight of fire. The issue was Tesla weapons maxed out at S7 and had AP - and unlike Grey Knight Passback based armies, that S7 didn't have Rending. This meant dealing with higher AVs consistently could be difficult for Tesla-based Necron armies and thus Command Barges, Scarabs & Crypteks to shore this up. So how does this translate to 6th edition...

The core of the army got way better in terms of ability to inflict damage and the ability to take return damage on the chin. Does it equate to an equally familiar list though?
  • Hull Points is huge. One of the biggest criticisms leveled at any Necron list was being able to drop vehicles in a guranteed manner. There is no such guarantee obviously but being able to throw a handful of meltas at a vehicle was way better than trying to strip it down to scrap metal. With Hull Points, that stripping down concept works. Vehicles still die to the relative same number of penetrating hits before but now glancing hits are reducing damage, the variability of dice is taken down a notch and weapons which weren't as powerful before, i.e. AP - weapons, are just as good now. 
  • Flyers is also huge. It increases the durability and speed of both of the Scythe variants for Necrons and actually makes the Doom Scythe relevant. Lack of Hover or a turret mounted weapon means there isn't 100% applicability here but these guys are very much a force to be recokned with.
  • Night Fight has changed from a "be hit or not hit at all" system to a cover based system or not hit all system (36"+) and is a lot more common with the 6th edition missions. Necrons still have the ability to turn the lights on or off and combined with the extra Night Fight in games, will have more flexibility than their opponents here. They still suffer from Night Fight in terms of not being able to combat it directly but they can take signficiant advantage of it and have more control when it can be used.
  • Two of Necron's main weapon types, Tesla & Gauss, got nice boosts. Again for Tesla, the lack of AP - negatives on the vehicle damage chart is great but also the increased importance of 6's to hit - i.e. snap-firing and overwatch. This means in those cases they do more damage than many other weapons. Gauss with Hull Points is obviously more effective as well - capable of glancing vehicles to death again though it requires a lot of shooting, it can help take off the last hull point or two of a vehicle.
  • Which with the new Rapid Fire rules, is why Warriors are better overall. They can be effective at greater than 18" finally.
  • Random Charge Length does hurt Necrons though. They suck in combat and RCL brings in the ability for an opponent to get larger than normal charges off against you. Yes reliability wise most units are looking to get within 4" to make sure they make it but you'll commonly see 7-8" assaults and for an army which loathes close combat, those couple extra inches, even if you get the extra firepower back at them, can be the difference between a dead and a live squad.
  • Scarabs though make quite nice bubble-wraps now due to Fearless. They're not going to disappear under a hail of No Retreat wounds though their resilience to shooting has gone down without buffing their save somehow. 
  • The Royal Court is no longer a necessary evil times two. One is certainly a good idea because of the utility options Crypteks bring but you no longer need to take two just to ensure you have a solid ability to take out vehicles. This saves a LOT of points which you can put elsewhere.
  • AV13, even psuedo-AV13, is pretty awesome in 6th edition at range. It prevents a lot of Hull Point damage and if any of that shielding can last until the end of the game, they're going to be a tough nut to crack. They lack the massive range of some of the other armies though (outside of the Doomsday Ark) so that AV13 is more melta/combat vulnerable and once it's gone, it's gone.
  • Necrons have access to some of the best Allies in Tau, Grey Knights and Orks. Use them wisely.
Everything there sounds pretty great but the biggest issue is the interaction between flyers, reserves & being shot off the table. If you take the old six Night Scythes and maybe chuck in a Doom Scythe for the new goodness it brings, that's a lot of units off the table to start with and you're more susectible to being shot off the table, having units in reserve and losing. Add in none of the Necron flyers have Hover and you always have to deal with zooming flyers in terms of movement and rotating. You can auto-lose versus hordes in that they can cover so much of the board your flyers crash and burn quickly. This means simply, once again, that less is more in the case of Necron flyers.

So what sort of template are we looking at here?

Necron Overlord w/Warscythe, CCB
Royal Court; 2x Harbringers of the Storm, 1x Harbringer of Destruction, Lance, Solar Pulse

2x5x Warriors w/Night Scythe

2x Annihlation Barge
Doom Scythe

Totals: 970 points

Looks more like an Allies template doesn't it? The basis of the Ally template is certainly in there - double small Troops in Scythes + extra flyer and Command Barge but there's a lot of room to expand here even before you get to allies. We've already maxed out the Heavy Support slot and probably have as many flyers as we want - though we could get one or two more if we really wanted. We've already got some utility in the Crypteks but have more capacity there but there's really little we can do with HQ other than upgrade the Lord to Anrakyr for Mind in the Machine again.

Otherwise how else is this to be expanded - particularly in terms of Tesla spam? Here's where the metatransition falls apart a bit as the best way to get more Tesla is through Night Scythes but too many of them becomes a list which has the issues associated with mass flyers. You may be able to laugh at a lot of armies but some really dumb armies can just laugh back at you - not to mention what happens when you have lots of points shoved into vehicles and not enough into ground units. You could counter this with maximum scoring Allies (2x10x Strike Knights for example) but it's unlikely to be enough.

Regardless, beyond potentially more Night Scythes we really need to expand our Troops and check out the Fast Attack slot for Necrons. I'd be looking at Warriors + Ghost Arks or larger Immortal squads, potentially with a Veil, on foot. You'd need combat defenses here though like Scarab Swarms or through the use of Allies in large Ork Boyz squads. You could also change the original Warriors to be Immortals and if you're looking to add one or two more Night Scythes, I'd particularly consider this role so their contents are a bit scarier. A large Foot Warrior squad supported by smaller ones in Arks + some Royal Court members also isn't going to be a bad idea as discussed by Biscuit for 5th. Still needs combat support though.

Otherwise Scarabs are still a halfway decent option of scaring Heavier armor though certainly not as necessary as some thought before. They also act as a buffer between the rest of the army and any assault elements the opponent may have. Wraiths can also work in this regard but are more expensive, less effective versus vehicles and still cry foul at the sight of Missile Launchers and the like. They annoy the shit out of some units but aren't superwtfomgamazing. Tomb Blades bring mobile firepower to the board of different type. Destroyers still aren't great - yay for re-rolls but why do I need to kill Marines when I already kill infantry? Particularly at that price. And with hull points coming in and Tesla being very good in this regard, Heavy Destroyers become less necessary again. You could take a few just to even out your firepower base but you could probably get more and cheaper options like this through your Allies (hey, do Tau have like Railguns or something?).

Conclusion

There's really a ton of options here. A ton. Because you're using barely half your points in a 1750-2000 point game to fill out the core of your army and that's if you're wanting to stick with the Tesla-spam concept. You could drop the Barges and go for Doomsday Arks and/or not bother with the Command Barge, etc. The core of the list is essentially what is now the Ally template with some of the better Necron choices added on (Royal Court, Barges, etc.). What you do from there is really flexible and can almost end up looking like any other army list.

The key thing to remember is: don't over-do it on the flyers and if you start taking more than three, ensure you have a good ground force to fight over board space.

Comments (29)

Loading... Logging you in...
  • Logged in as
I think the barge lord is a mistake. You don't want your warlord driving into melta range to assault a squad that not only can hit him back, but since the barge doesn lock in combat, the squad can walk around behind and kill the barge. Also, slay the warlord is often the hardest secondary to claim, so why give it to them.
2 replies · active 658 weeks ago
You don't have to use the Lord aggressively- just having him hang out near your army, stopping assaults, is a reasonable (if not amazing) use of him.

You can also just disembark to assault a squad rather than bringing the Barge in with him, which is your best bet against anyone with Krak.

Bargelords are a lot weaker than they were, but I think they're still one of the better choices for an HQ.
Destroyer Lords are amazing. Overlords in blobs are pretty solid as well.
Tesla and gauss still don't hold a candle to real anti-tank.

With Allies now, LanceTeks aren't as required anymore. They're still excellent firepower for their points, comparable to Long Fangs, but yeah, Allies bring better (PsyDreads are great if you don't care about AP, Broadsides bring additional plasma with their railguns).

I think we need to nip this 'Night Scythe spam is OP' bullshit in the bud though. People keep repeating it like its true. 165pts minimum investment per AV10 paper plane is not OP; its not even especially scary. A single Quad-gun ends them as they enter from Reserve, Vendettas laugh at them, PsyDreads and Lootas spam them out of the sky.
10 replies · active 658 weeks ago
night scythes are armour 11 and crons dont need to care about low ap since gauss is king
Phase Assassin's avatar

Phase Assassin · 659 weeks ago

As Alex has said all Scythes are AV 11 all around. Don't get too excited and check the stats before making raging statements. While that might not seem like a big increase, it renders most infantry weapons useless. So I'd say that's something in favor of scythes. They are cheaper than most Fliers out there so taking 2 Doomscythes trumps taking one Stormraven especially since you glance them to hell reliably. Also dedicated Flier killers aren't so scary when there are 3 fliers and troops that can glance them or even pen them to hell once again. In short army synergy makes up for the short comings of units.
Also scythes are 100 points not 165.....lol. How do you get as wrong as this? Does it take practice?
100+65 includes warriors
With warriors makes it 165.
No they don't but the gap is far less pronounced and one could theoretically get by with just that in sixth.

Correct night scythe spam is op is a piss poor statement but they are a great addition to any army. That's why negron flyer wing is such a good allied contingent. A single quad gun also gets ended before the end of turn one. Oh look, something which can kill my fliers but is only t7. Maybe I should kill that.
A single Quad Gun kills at most one Flyer per turn.. when you're facing 7+, it really doesn't help and ends up as a waste of points in most armies.
Trading 100 pts for 100 pts doesn't seem so bad to me. Doesn't it get 4+ cover from the aegis defense fortifications? Seems like with T7 W2 and 4+ cover it should take a fair amount of beating to kill.

If that is the only thing in your army that can do anything to flyers then yes that won't work against 7+ flyers. It is the same as having a single unit in your army able to deal with tanks and going up against 7+ tanks.
Most armies need to be able to deal with a T6/W6/3+ save model within one shooting phase. I'm sure they can handle one T7/W2 model. Yes it helps but it's still likely the priority target.
>>PsyDreads and Lootas spam them out of the sky.

LOL. Says the guy whose obviously never faced it otherwise would actually know the stats.
Considering the Scythes are guaranteed the first shot, why are the PsyDreads not dead yet...hmmm?

>>Tesla and gauss still don't hold a candle to real anti-tank.
Um, well, every single troop has it. It's called things adding up, in aggregate, and you clearly not knowing what your talking about.
greenknight's avatar

greenknight · 659 weeks ago

Destroyers definitely aren't the greatest but I do like their improved utility. I'm too poor to afford Night Scythes at this point, so I've played a few games with Destroyers that I had left over from the old codex. They've been decisive in each battle they've fought, blowing up Rhinos full of marines and tervigons that were spitting out gaunts. If you have the space, I don't think it is so bad to load up on a wing of destroyers. 5 of them (yes, it is 200 points) can do some real damage if pointed in the right direction. Not to mention if you use their jump packs on the charge they'll get 3 attacks due to Hammer of Wrath.
Discospawn's avatar

Discospawn · 659 weeks ago

I REALLY don't think random charge lengths is a negative for Necrons. Their units are mostly Rapid Fire or Twin-Linked, so any assaulting unit is going to have to take a huge volley of shots from Overwatch before they're successful. If your opponent is already trying to charge from a distance he couldn't beforehand (7"+), you should be hoping he goes for it, because the majority of the time you're going to damage him without any harm being done to you. Plus, Necrons have access to abilities that cause enemies to count as moving through difficult/dangerous terrain to further offset and minor benefits Assault got in 6th Edition. I really don't think a single thing in the new rulebook hurt Necrons.
2 replies · active 658 weeks ago
Even with 20 shots you're only getting 3 hits on average. Not a lot of damage. 5ish with tesla. Considering necrons have no fearless or stubborn access, even paltry tacticals on the charge are scary if they make it in and those type of squads can shrug off the majority of over watch shooting. Crucible is fun certainly.
Large warrior blobs with Phaeron can be designed (MSS/WS/Cryptek toys) to be extremely legit in assault. As can Telsa Immortals.
I think the biggest issue when playing against marines is how to protect the arks, Annihilation barges etc from assaults. I played wall 13 plus two schytes against a BA jump army with Tau as an ally and it was very difficult to protect my arks etc from assaults. I think you have to have more bubble wrap than I had, 2x5 scarabs were too few. The question is how much do you have to invest and which units? 2x10 scarabs are a minimum I think and that is 300 p but they are vurnable to S6+ weapons so can be wiped out if you are not careful. Alt you can get 2x20 ork boyz plus a warboss for ca 300p. They are much slower than scarabs but better in cc. I'm not sure which alternative I should take, what do you think?
4 replies · active 659 weeks ago
Orks are a good choice and the more squads you can layer, the better. So two scarabs and two orks wouldn't be a bad thing. GK also work in that you can take 2x10 strikes and combat squad.
Do you think orks are better than a large warrior unit w lords a la Sir Biscuit?
Orks are going to put out more shots for the cost and will be better in a fight as well, even counting in the Lord/Overlord. Orks can also bring along Lootas and Kannons, both excellent shooting units, to supplement the Necrons.

That isn't to say Orks are your only choice for allies- Tau, GK, IG, etc, all have strong utility- but certainly they do things that Necrons don't.
Orks. Fearless is huge.
If you are just looking for bubble wrap or tarpits or countercharge units, then I think you will find that your average big boyz squad is serving you better than a big blob of warriors and lords. Lords are expensive and are good for challenges or attrition, but warriors are only really resilient against shooting, in assault they are not working nearly as hard for you unless you've got like two lords and an ark, and then we can all agree that you'd want cheaper bubble wrap.
2 friends who play Necrons feel is is pretty impossible to kill the unit on the table in 1 round. I don't play necrons myself so forgive any mis-statements, so between night fighting, long range, cover/out of sight, rez orb, squad of immortals, think they were thinking Imotek at least. Even if you wipe them somehow they get the reanimation on 4+?

The bigest question for me is what is good at killing flyers? quad-gun, hydras, lootas, psyfledread, telepathy power puppet master, and I can't think of other good weapons. Those are really the things to take to deal with flyer lists, but they still need to be effective if you don't run into a flyer list too.

Now if they make something like the hunter killer missle a flakk missle then people might start taking them things again.
1 reply · active 657 weeks ago
If you wipe out an entire squad, only the Overlord (and maybe cryptek) get reanimation.
I went back and read bisquits article and im working on a similar list. The core is:
2x overlord with orb, scarabs, weave and warsythe.
2 royal courts each with 2x lords with scarabs and warsythe
2x 13 warriors
7 warriors in an ark
4 wraiths with whip coils
2x annihilation barges
1 overlord an a lord from each court go in the13 warrior squad. The smaller warrior squad stays just behind for support. Im still working out whether to reserve the wraith for later game counter assaults. Between the 7 warsythe attacks each round and the mindshackle scarabs my plan is to never lose combat by more than 3, that keeps me locked on average dice. And allows me to attrition down the enemy squad
Im gonna add some orcs on foot to this base. 425 points will buy a boss and 2x 20 boys. Orcs run in front of crons. Im thinking this list should do relativly well against my buddies and the small, local tournies i play in.
>>Destroyers still aren't great - yay for re-rolls but why do I need to kill Marines when I already kill infantry?

Efficiency. Efficiency. Efficiency. That's like saying "ABarges are great but don't my warriors already kill tanks?"

Also, Mobility. And very respectable resiliency. You're not paying for one of these things, you're paying for all of them. So lets see:

A.) Point for point one of the best weapons in the game for killing by far the most often faced saves in the game (3+), while still being way above average at killing 4+, and, you know, will kill everything worse just fine too.
B.) JI, and all the advantages that entails.
C.) T5, 3+, RP. _In the neighborhood of_ Terms in resiliency/point (AP and I debated this already, and even if you consider Terms ultimately ahead, the Destroyers aren't _far_ behind. Plus they have Jump Packs).
D.) Can damage any unit in the game. Like all of them. And has the mobility to maximize this. Like you know, this is 6th edition, where mobility on a high damage potential shooting unit is amazing. Get around cover saves. Hit side/rear armor. Useful things like that.
E.) Can be mixed up with Heavies if you need to ratchet up your anti-tank a bit.

They're an extremely solid unit now. It surprises me y'all continue to underrate them. Why do people see AP 3 and think "huh, well that kills Marines and does nothing else to anything?"
1 reply · active 657 weeks ago
Good points, but I think the main issue is twofold.
1)They're expensive, 40pts a model is not cheap and you have to compare it to alternatives.
2)Speaking of alternatives, it takes a FA slot which has some really good options in it.

Now I like destroyers, but I usually run 2x2 squads of heavy destroyers in low points games. Tesla Immortals need a little boost at 1k and these guys fit in nicely.

Post a new comment

Comments by

Follow us on Facebook!

Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...