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Saturday, January 1, 2011

The Old Tyranid Codex Wasn't Very Good, Guys



I've seen lots of people argue for the old Tyranid codex, which I completely don't get. Almost everything in that book was terrible. Yeah, Tyrants and 'Fexes were cheap- so what? This is 5E, you need scoring units. You need mobility. You need good ways to kill tanks. The old book didn't have any of those things.

Yeah, everything was Eternal Warrior and you had more abundant grenades. So? Both of those are situational advantages, and be mitigated by taking actual good units and using tactics. Sometimes you're gonna wish you had them, and it will suck, but the rest of the time you'll be riding high on three wounds or cheap fliers or whatever and you won't give a damn.

Let's go back to the "overpriced" monstrous creatures for a second. The old Devourers Flyrant, which was pretty much the only HQ worth taking, was 196 pts (ES, TS, Winged, 2 Devs, Warp Field.) The new Flyrant is 285pts (Winged, 2 Devs, OA). Is it a worse buy? Yeah, kinda. You lose one BS and rerolls to wound (so you're netting ~8 MEQ wounds instead of ~10 when shooting) as well as the 2+/6++ (and let's be honest, only the 2+ part was relevant.) On the other hand, you gain +4WS, +1A, an aura of Preferred Enemy, and two very relevant psychic powers that can drastically swing fights. If I had the option, yes, I would bring an old Flyrant, just as if I had the option I would use the old Psychic Hood instead of the new, limited-range one. But the current Tyrant enables entire army builds with its support abilities and it is MUCH more scary in a fight. Lash Whips are scary now- they destroy Eldar and DE armies, as well as anyone else who relies on going first in a fight.

There's no arguing that the Carnifex didn't get worse- it totally did. But again, so what? We gained so many relevant units in comparison that it practically doesn't matter. The same people who complain about how the Tyrannofex is overpriced are the ones who were buying souped-up Carnifexes last edition- a Sniperfex was only 148, but when you add in the Tyrannofex's improved save, extra wounds, and secondary guns, you basically paid 30pts for +1A, a poisoned flamer and removing the "glancing only" limitation on your Venom Cannon. Doesn't sound like such a bad deal to me. Moreover, even a shooty Carnifex is a very real danger to most squads in melee now- unless they have a Power Fist, they are going to take ~2 casualties every single turn, which MEQ squads and other elite infantry do not appreciate. And once more: yes, I miss the old 114pt Devilfex. That guy was a beast, and the entire army basically ran on him and him alone. We have a real army now, it's time to stop lamenting the fact that the one or two pieces of underpriced bullshit were removed from the book, just like with everyone else.

Warriors. Seriously, does anyone else remember how terrible Warriors were before? The old Deathspitter spam variety was 42pts, which is not exactly cheap for a T4/W2/4+ model. A rerollable S7 blast is cool, but when you're dying to Bolter fire, it's less impressive. Amd those guys were terrible in combat- Assault Marines with no improved movement, no Sarge with a special CCW, no power armor, nothing. The "close combat Warrior" clocked in at a pricey 45pts and had a 12" charge with four S5 I5 Rending attacks, but no Fleet. For 50pts, you can now get a guy with three power weapon attacks that drops all enemies to I1 and rerolls wounds. Also, he's got an extra wound on the old guy and carries a gun to boot. Are you seeing where this is going? Throw old Warriors against new ones and there will be nothing left of the grandpa squad.

Genestealers that rerolled wounds (on the first round only) and could Outflank cost you 23pts before. Now they're 17, reroll wounds all the time, and have Infiltrate for reals. Or, you know, take some Ymgarl Genestealers and assault the turn you arrive with four attacks and a 4+ save for the same price.

Hormagaunts. Fudging Hormagaunts. And Gargoyles. They were godawful before, and now they're awesome. Hormagaunts that hit on 3s and struck before Marines (like they basically do now, thanks to Talons) cost you 12pts. As opposed to six points. Yes, I'd like to double my model count in exchange for not being Beasts any more, thank you very much.

Zoanthropes cost 5pts less (Synapse Creature + Warp Blast) and are now BS4, have a 3++ (instead of a 6++), and their AT shot gained AP1 and Lance. Yeah, that seems awfully relevant to me.

Biovores still aren't great, but guys, Bio-Acid Biovores cost 55pts for a S3 small blast. Sure, it penetrated MEQ armor, you just couldn't wound them or hit more than one, maybe two models with it. And don't pretend that 2d6+3 was getting through vehicle armor- you had barely a one in four chance to penetrate a Rhino, for crying out loud.

And again: no scoring units, no mobility. Yeah, yeah, Without Number Gaunts. When they wiped your eight-strong squad off an objective, you came in from a table edge, not where you wanted to be. That meant you spent a LOT of time moving 6+d6" through your deployment zone, and most people were not going to be generous enough to put all the objectives on one side. Compare that to the flood of poisonous bodies that a Tervigon brings and... well, there's really no comparison. Tyranids now move as a cohesive force, supporting range and melee units each in turn and taking advantage of auras and countercharges to make coming near them costly. They have options for differing styles of deployment. They have special abilities that actually do something- as opposed to +1 Initiative or +1 Toughness and that's it. Our psychic powers are a million times better- just look at the old Catalyst vs the new one.

For every minor thing the book lost, it gained a dozen important new things. Whereas before it was Devilfex and Flyrant, now virtually every option in the book is at least semi-reasonable, and a good three quarters of them are entirely playable, or even rather good. The only thing the old book has going for it is nostalgia, and if you're gonna be nostalgic, at least go back to an age where Tyranids were actually impressive, like the old ten-wound Carnifexes and murderous Lictors of 2E.

Comments (95)

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Maybe you could play a local who loved 4th ed Nids [and that's what he'd be using] versus 5th ed Nids ^^,
1 reply · active 743 weeks ago
Only other 'Nid players I know all agree with me, sorry. I guess there's nothing stopping me from doing a Vassal game against old 'Nids, though.
Agree. New Nids are viable.
Are people still banging on about the old Tyranid book? Really?
2 replies · active 742 weeks ago
You are expecting people not to complain about anything?
http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/10/how-to-...

They'll never, ever stop. It's what they've always done.
i like the old codex primarily for the Psychic Choir MC list that i ran.

the new book has something similar, but it just doesn't work under normal game conditions.

given, the new book has more units that are usable, the overall book however, doesn't support many army variants, which is my complain for BOTH codices.

the new book could have opened the possibilities for an all flying list, a psychic list, a tunneling list etc, but falls short of supporting any of them with substandard rules writing.

from a game design from fluff perspective, tyranids could have been an awesome awesome army... but i guess GW doesn't want ANY faction to outsell their darling Space Marines (and variants) huh?
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
I'm assuming you have no idea how unpopular tyranids were prior to their 5th edition book, which made the army actuall viable, and opened up tactics and alternative units to people.

So you had 3 elite carnifex, 3 heavy carnifex, 2 tiny squads of rippers, a tyrant, and what else? Oh, right - there was nothing else.

Sales died when GW FAQ'd them - not because they were updated.
I bought a Tyranid army when the new 'dex came out. You're preaching to the converted here!

I've gone for a no shooting army. Everything runs in the shooting phase. All of my other armies shoot. I wanted to do something different and I figured 'nids were my best shot at a close combat only army.
3 replies · active 742 weeks ago
I would honestly advise some shooting. A pure CC army needs at least some shooting for cover for your main dudes. Shooting also helps with regards to enemy vehicles as well as psychic shooting attack special powers from tervigons and the likes. Fact is, your MCs are the only thing good at ripping apart tanks, but tanks are must faster if you run. Your MCs don't get fleet.

People who do pure CC tyranids often forget that some tyranids get free shooting. Devourers on Warriors isn't a bad choice compared to Scything Talons. You can pop off a potential few wounds before you rush in and start slaughtering. Same deal with Trygons. People refuse to shoot them simply because "trygons are cc why should i fire gun i run instead" even though it's a powerful shooting attack, primarily used after deep striking!

Take some shooting, you will be doing more harm than good without a bit.
Bringing in AT shooting, at the very least, is pretty necessary. It's possible to win without it, but it brings so much to a list. Being able to wreck a transport and assault the contents is really key.

And yeah, having the "free" shots on top of your good assault capabilities is a big part of the difference between old 'Nids and new. Old Tyranids could either shoot OR assault, new ones do both.
Really great comment. Thank you.

It's not that I don't see the challenges, and as you point out, problems posed by refusing to take some of the awesome shooting available to Tyranids. It's more that I'm looking for the challenge that playing without shooting represents.

To an extent the same goes for anti-tank shooting. Both Hive Guard and Tyrannofexes are effective methods of dealing with enemy armour and preparing the way for charges. Even Zoanthropes can help.

I suppose it's more that despite the excellent options available, and the free options are noted, and extremely tempting, I want to own a "challenge" army. An army with a specific limitation that makes it more difficult to play. The same is true of my super-elite armies. If winning is what you're aiming to do then they make little sense.

I figured if you are going to do CC only then Tyranids are one of your best bets, in the same way I thought that if you are going to do super-elite then Blood Angel Jumpers are one of your best bets...

Great post and great comments guys. Thank you
Excellent article, again.

Old Nids were rubbish compared to now.
"that drops all enemies to I1 and rerolls wounds" ? Where does the wound reroll come from?
2 replies · active 742 weeks ago
Katie Drake's avatar

Katie Drake · 742 weeks ago

Toxin sacs.
If you have poison and your strength is equal or better than their toughness, you get to reroll failed wounds.
Poison :)
Pinball Wizard's avatar

Pinball Wizard · 742 weeks ago

there's no doubt that this book works out better in 5th edition than the previous. The problem isn't necessarily the changes in relative strengths, it's the overhaul in playstyle. Tyranids are, in my view, now one of the most boring armies to play with competitively. There are things you can do with units that aren't the best but by and by half the book is full of tripe. 5 of the units are just way too necessary and subsequently the other unts don't get a look in. It's a shame that it's so dull. So whilst the old book certainly would be worse to play with under the current rules the new one also forgot one thing. Soul. Players' love of the book and playing Nids is gone out the window. That's a fail in my eyes.
15 replies · active 742 weeks ago
Yea . . . . Every ork army has boyz. That totally lacks soul. Boyz are way to neccessary. It is so dull.

Yea . . . . Every Space Marine army has power armour. That totally lacks soul. Power armour is way to neccessary. It is so dull.

0.o

I can do this for every codex.
Could you please :P?
Pinball Wizard's avatar

Pinball Wizard · 742 weeks ago

But Orks and Marines are supposed to have boyz and power armour respectively, in fact that would be playing into the soul of the army. I think the Ork book has lots of soul, it just ddin't translate well into 5th. i think the new nid book is has very good armies but it lacks soul. Now I've never played Nids so to be fair I'll say I don't know. But I will say that the current setup for nids is much less appealing that it was 5 years ago. Sure, keeping the 4th ed book going would be worse for the nids but the trend of the 5th ed books was to make the new armies exciting to play and really mix up the game. All of them bar Nids managed this imo and to me that means on some level it's a failed book. But i won't deny it's competitive nature, solid lists, buckets of T6 wounds. I guess I just feel that so much more could have been done with them. It feels...rushed.
Monobuilds have more soul than multiple builds, because...?
Pinball Wizard's avatar

Pinball Wizard · 742 weeks ago

They don't. let me try coming at this another way. Take the recent dark eldar book for example. I think this is the book that needs to set the tone for the future of 40k. how many lists can you name as viable out of that book? None (yet). Why? Because this book delivered in so many ways that personal opinion really matters on it. Look at all the debating generated on the units, no more than with any other book but for once I feel like everyone can throw a lot of personal styling into their armies (and yes more so than anyone else) and still come out on top. I think all of the fifth ed books managed this quite well bar Nids. I agree that you can take things that aren't Hive Guard, tervigons and Tfexes and still win if you play better than you're opponent. But it really feels like you're shooting yourself in the foot for not taking them. There's a reason these units get taken more than the others, because they're good/necessary. They just missed out on a great opportunity to make multiple builds a bigger option. Nids aren't mono-build. But they were a big let-down in the multi-build department for a new book. that's why it lacks soul for me. It's not that they're not good, nor that they've decreased in power from last ed, or that this book is greater than that one etc. It's that they didn't get as much variety in there as they could have. That is all.
Venom Spam. Duke Raider list. Duke Venom spam. Baron led WWP. Non-baron led WWP. Foot Wyches/Beastmasters. Wych army. Wrack army. Vect Raider. Coven list. Do I need to go on?

It has nothing to do with personal opinion. The DE book is the pinnacle of GW balance because nearly every unit is good and a viable choice. Whilst some units are hard to give up (i.e. Trueborn, Ravagers) compared to others, the only really crap units are some of the SCs. Sure, you can make an army that you like the units of a lot more compared to other books because it's hard to make bad choices but that doesn't mean all of the choices work together. Every other 5th ed book has this for the majority of their entries as well and I'd hazard 75-80% of the units in every book are viable (except SM prob who maybe more 60-70%). Sure Hive Guard are a great unit but they are very similar to Trueborn in that they are so good, it's hard to leave home without them but you can. Venomthropes, Zoans, Deathleaper all have their place in the army and whilst not taking Hive Guard means you have to load up on S6 suppression fire, that's what Tyranid anti-tank is about; suppression. They are just too good in combat if they aren't disrupted to have great anti-tank and great combat ability.
So 8 MCs + token gants has more soul than any of the builds currently which generally mix MCs, tough critters (i.e. Warriors, Raveners, Hive Guard) and gribblies? Don't get it.
Yeah, it is a no-brainer to argue that the new Nid book is better under 5th edition than the old book was. A more interesting article might address whether the 4th edition codex was better under 4th edition rules than the 5th edition codex is under 5th edition rules.
I would have to say that no, it wasn't. 4E was all about static gunlines shooting each other to death, and Nidzilla was simply inferior at that. The multitude of LasPlas would bring down its MCs rather effectively and it didn't really have anything else going for it. S8 large blasts and gobs of S6 shots were nice, but you weren't going to wipe the enemy off the table with them, not at max range.
Tyranids never had a chance against any of the power armor armies back then.
If you weren't getting dominated by las/plas squads from hell, you were getting your ass served by infiltrating elite devastators, terminatorwing, infiltrating chaos, clawminators, or hordey chaos.

People love pretending nidzilla was badass, but it just didn't measure up against the 'OP' lists from back then. No, not even when the codex was new.
I don't understand the complaint about the 'soul' of tyranids- EVERY competitive list last edition was simply- 3 elite carnifex, 3 heavy carnifex, 2 tiny squads of rippers, a tyrant, and whatever was left. Honestly, there are problems, but the sheer variety of models you can use now is nice.

And if you don't like the Terv? Seriously, just pretend you payed the points for without number and pretend that that six wound creature just somehow wandered on the board.
They don't want to change.
They want their power weapon 'stealers and mutable carnifex back.

To hell with good units, variety, and a modern book.
Katie Drake's avatar

Katie Drake · 742 weeks ago

Why would Tyranid players want a Codex with soul? Aren't Tyranids soulless husks anyway? :D
The bad units: Rippers, Skyshredders, Spore Mines, Pyrovores. These units are unsalvagable.

The excellent: Tervigons, Hive Guard (you can build armies without these units, but they fill fundamental roles in 5E: wrecking transports and scoring objectives)

The usable-to-good: everything else.

I'm not sure why you think the army is boring, but I would have to disagree. I have a lot of fun with them, and I've run around a dozen different builds, and there wasn't a single unit that was in all of them. (Hive Guard are in most, but I fuckin' love Hive Guard, so that's as much me as the book.)

What do you mean by "soul"? What was the "flavor" of the old book? +1 to a stat simply didn't feel all that exciting to me.
The problem with that statement is old tyranids had no playstyle.
Push seven monsters across the board, while rippers wait to contest quarters. That's all it ever was.

The army never had a soul, or is this where someone starts talking about how awesome and 'soul' power weapon genestealers from the 3rd edition rulebook were?
I think a LOT of veteran Nid players miss the old Stealer Shock list, which was killed in the new book (not mentioned in the article).
And from what I understand, the new fluff isn't too cool either.
Nidzilla is still around, it's just different now.

I'm new to the Nids, so really the new book is cool with me.
5 replies · active 742 weeks ago
Stealer Shock wasn't good before, either, at least not during 5E. The changes to Rending basically destroyed it. In 4E... I'm not entirely sure. My intuition says it still wasn't all that great, but I could be wrong. The fact that the list was legendary and widely-feared means very little- Leafblower, Lash, and Nob Bikerz are all like that now, but they're all pretty bad lists.
Well, you essentially lined up in front of all his guns, and prayed he didn't have an auspex - which everybody except templars had, so good luck with that.
Then you got into combat with a 5-man squad, vaporized it, and died in the next turn, because not even the baby seals of 4th edition had their army deployed so you could sweep into other units.

it really was the n00b bikers back then, while the iron warriors were the leafblower.
leafblower, lash, Nob bikers, razorspam, raider rush, etc.

As Bruce Lee would say: know the form, but seek the formless.
New stealershock is terrible, but several orders of magnitude better than it used to be, since you get more of everything, and better everything.
Of course, that doesn't stop the 'veterans' from complaining that genestealers don't have power weapons, liked they did in 3rd edition.
I vote the word veterans ony be used for those who have served in the military.
Here's a reply from this post: http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/index.cgi?act...

By voraciousapathy and I think it says everything again that's needed:

"Wow, you think 4e 'Nids could've handled 8-12 vehicle armies, much less 14+ which IG can field? 'Cause I sure don't. He's pretty much correct about everything he said; 4e 'Nids were "okay" with 'Nidzilla builds, and people always piped on about hybrid lists which 'worked', but I played 'Nid lists in 'Ard Boyz, Necro, Adepticon, and dozens of RTTs, and beat them all so soundly that I recall those games as a blurred mess of carnage, with Land Raiders driving over dead bug bodies.

The old Codex sucked in 5e. I mean, it sucked. That's not even "my opinion, man", as the kids're so fond of saying, now-adays.. That's the painful truth. You really think you're going to shoot down mechanized IG with 3 Sniperfexes? Really? Are you on medication? 'Nids had neither the speed and numbers of heavy hitters to kill vehicles quickly in melee, nor the firepower to win in a shooting match, and those were the only two options. If you ran into a wall of Chimeras? Dead. Rhinos? Dead. Land Raiders? Dead. Heck, pretty much the only thing you didn't lose badly to was Necrons, in 5e, assuming both players knew what they were doing.

Now, Hive Guard are certainly "contrived".. I mean, they may as well be called "Gunbeast", because they're perfectly "evolved" (a.k.a., designed) as a response to spammed light vehicles, and true line of sight, and so on.. but does that mean they weren't needed? God, no. The reason they're so seemingly drastic in effectiveness, is because the 'Nid Codex was so hobbled by its EMBARASSINGLY BAD ANTI-TANK FIREPOWER, that it NEEDED something that drastic. That's the long and short of it.

I'm sorry -- Dakkafexes? Not anti-tank. Sniperfexes? No. Calling a Sniperfex anti-tank was something we had to do, because we had no better option. That doesn't mean the poor kid whose family can't even afford a cellphone can be faulted for calling his tin-can telephone a Galaxy S, but it doesn't mean he's anywhere in the same area code as "Correct".

Our guns sucked. Our melee was "okay", but not devastating. We had a bunch of slow, cheap MCs which could be easily out-ranged and shot to death. We had no answer to any competitive build.

The only thing the 4e Codex had on this one? Fluff. If that's such a big deal, I recommend people spend a fraction of the time they spend whining on the internet ineffectually, and simply cut out and replace all the fluff pages from the 5e Codex, with the fluff from the 4e one.

I'm leading a personal campaign to stamp out whining 'Nids, and if AbusePuppy was beside me, right now, I'd give him a BroFist, for making a well-meaning attempt at emulating my acerbic wit."
Meister_Kai's avatar

Meister_Kai · 742 weeks ago

Here's the thing.

I've never been a Tyranid player.

I know many people who used to be Tyranid players. That phenomenon that VT2 talked about above is the exact opposite of what happened where I play: Tyranids are the new (old) Dark Eldar - the army no one plays. A few years/months ago, they were one of the most represented armies around.

There have been a lot of articles on this site, all written by different people, discussing the Tyranid problem. I'm not really sure why. After having playtested Tyranids a good deal with models my various friends own (I could field virtually any possible list) and talking with them, here are some of the complaints I see:

Some of these are echoed in the comments above.

1. Imagine for a second that the 6th edition Tyranid book has just come out. Now Tervigons are mandatory for gants but don't spawn units, Hive Guard cost 100 points a piece and are T5, and Tyranid Primes cost 120 base. Oh yeah, Biovores are now 40 points a piece and get a choice between a 8/3 large blast or 10/2 shot. Pyrovores get Flamestorm cannons that get 2d6 vs tanks. Is this sensationalist/outrageous? Sure is, however it's what happens every time the codex is redone.

2. The "new" Tyranids are essentially the "old" Tyranids but with slightly better units. Take the example given in the Abusepuppies post, am I the only one who sees a problem with this? Elite Carnifexs were split into up to 3 models in a squad and given better guns. Bam Hive Guard. Heavy Support Carnifexes were made even more expensive with a better save and some extra templates that for their hype, never really get to do anything (a close up Tfex is usually a powerfisted to death Tfex). The thing is, Tyranids now are merely viable. I would call them good, but certainly not great. This came as a smack to the face to all the Tyranid players who stood by and got to watch the ancient Space Wolves and Blood Angels go from complete Trash (like the old Tyranids amirite) to awesome engines of destruction. Tyranid players got the chance to buy a 265 point Rhino-shaker who's gun can't even penetrate power armor. This is a problem.

3. Hive Tyrants. This deserves a special place. Are they more expensive now? Yes. Are they better state wise? Yes. Are they better enough vs cost? Hell no. Do they still get rolled by most dedicated assault units baring massive amounts of support (which I'm sure everyone reading this will argue against because a Hive Tyrant will always have gant support because no one brings templates, right), yes. Oh and missiles. Oh whats that, bring a Tyranid Guard/and or 2+ save, no thanks, I can find better ways to spend my almost 300 points (moar Hive Guard amirite) thank you.

3. Soul. A lot of people here are either pretending to not know what people mean, or do and don't "get it". Allow me to explain. Go on Scrib or whatever and look up the old 4th edition Tyranid codex. Look at how bad a lot of the options were. Look how many options there were. Count them. Thats a lot of options right? Now lets take this into consideration: Most people here, including me, Kirby etc, could probably be classified as min/maxers etc, and we are damn proud of it. However, most people just aren't. They like their crappy units with terrible options. How did these people feel when a good 80% of these options were just yanked away from them? Must not of been good. Also, in my limited experience, it seems that most Tyranid players never really cared about competitive play, because as most people have read, the old Tyranids were terrible. All they wanted was the point and click (that didn't work) and all the "fun" that was seeing something that could be 100% unique on the table trying to do what it did. See, even if the army was shitty, at least they had fun building lists and playing them. Now go and read stories like TheGraveMind's at Theback40K, he was hoping that the 5th edition book would finally be his ticket to take that "fun" army he loved and make a competitive beast out of it, too bad the codex failed.

I could go on some more but it is pretty pointless. I know all of this will be discounted as useless whining (I'm not even a Tyranid player for God's sake lol) but it's how some of my friends and I feel, so whatev's.

On a completely unrelated note, I had the local baby-seal clubbing Guard player confess to me that 40K is boring for him now. He only plays Guard, you know, the 10 Chimera 2 Manticore/whatever player. I thought this was awesome and I feel very fortunate that I choose a dynamic and fun army like Eldar instead of a more mainstream army like Wolves or Guard. I thank Kirby, TKE, and Fritz for this mostly. I hope that when Eldar are redone, they are not as good as Guard/Wolves.
10 replies · active 742 weeks ago
4) everyone needs to realise GW is dumbing down options in terms of actual choice. Hi Chaos. Hi Eldar. Hi IG. Hi SM. All of their 3.5-4th ed books had WAY more options and the new ones (i.e. Nids, IG, SM) may have less overall options but many many more competitive options. I'll take this option thanks as GW caters to both hobby and gamers.

3) Most dedicated assault units which aren't TH/SS hate lash whips and getting whacked by 5 MC A and however many support attacks. Tyrants are pretty good in combat but you aren't buying them for a combat unit but rather an army buffer. The ability to run a better reserve army or have even gants be really deadly in combat is huge and worth 300 points.

2) Not really. Old Tyranids rarely had gibbering hordes and whilst they aren't viable, there are a lot more models on the table than old. Compare 8 MCs and 16 odd gaunts to 5-7 MCs + HG/Warriors/Raveners + 20+ Gants which grows over the course of the game. Just like the IG codex transfer you now get more for the same points. That's a lot different from "old painting, new frame."

1) This isn't unique to Tyranids, it's GW and we all hope they won't screw this up as they update 6th books. A huge way to limit this would to be to address problems via errata/FAQs but that's not going to happen anytime soon I think. That being said Carnifexes and Tyrants (i.e. the only things which were essentially used before) are still viable choices. You can't field them all but with some conversion work those Sniperfexes = T-Fexes, etc.
Meister_Kai's avatar

Meister_Kai · 742 weeks ago

4 - I don't think dumbing down options has happened across the board, I think that Tyranids honestly did just get the shaft. I'm pretty sure there are more Guard/SM units than ever before and that more are usable than ever before for example. Eldar saw a good portion of their weapons nerfed sure, but were they not still the most oft-complained about book in 4th edition? Fun fact- from what I've read, EVERYTHING sucked in 4th edition, no army was good, and no army ever won a tournament. Tyranids merely went from every army being Tyrant + 6 Carnies/gants to Tyrant or Prime + 4-9 Hive Guard, 1-3 Tervigons + Whatever. Like I was saying, not much really changed besides their shooting getting better, which is pretty huge I guess.

3. If Tyrants are a buffer where is my CC unit? I'm pretty sure that 10-15 gants with poison/adrenal with a Tervigon still can regularly lose to 10 Grey Hunters with a Powerfist (assuming they get CA off, has anyone ever seen this fail lol). What is an example of a "better reserve army"? I haven't seen a halfway decent one since the FAQ.

2. If you have 7 MC in your list, you probably don't have Warriors or Raveners. You are also probably running "that" build of 6 HG, 3 Tervi, 2 Harpy, 2 Tyrannofex. People say this build is good, but since Tyranid have yet to win a credible tournament anywhere to my knowledge, no one can really say. Some older armies have "that" build, but most high-profile high-placing tournament winners that are known to be good (Stelek, MV B) either seemingly discount Tyranids as being unfit for competitive play or tactically inflexible. How about someone takes Tyranids to a tournament and win, making me look like an asshat? I would love to eat my words, how about you take your Nids to Centurion Kirby?

1. I will concede that this wasn't a good example and something that usually just happens. However, I was trying (and failed) to convey the feeling that many times Tyranid players (at least the ones I know) feel as though every edition change their entire army becomes trash. A lot of my friends also feel as though GW just doesn't give to craps about them through lackluster model and rule support. The only person I've meet who has showed an interest in playing Tyranids pass the first or so test game is a die-hard Starcraft player who just wishes to have a zerg army (and due to influence by me and others, it's one of those TPrime, 9 Hive Guard, 2 Tervigon etc lists. It gives me Eldar army trouble sometimes, but the Guard/Space Wolf/BA players discourage him.
4. Other armies have lost options, it's just that the nid book had a lot more junk to not reprint; too much junk not worth using. The cost on the nids was almost as though they were designed to tailor a list against every opponent individually; great for casual games but horrible for an all-comers/tourney list. In the 5th ed. dex the upgrade options are for the most part all good. Options only matter if they are useful. No matter how you look at it the new dex has affordable infantry with solid options, the old one had two usable infantry with a minority of the options being usable...

3. hmmm a 5 point gant vs a marine... did you seriously make that comparison!? (Hint: you can bring more than 3 gants to every one grey hunter....) And you also ignored tyrant buffed warriors/ravs/hormies/stealers/etc... who can also can tear apart those hunters each in their own way. The better reserve army would be one that is possible... 4th ed. it wasn't.

2. First this discussion is about 4th ed. vs 5th ed. The 5th Ed. dex is better, is more competitive, and offers a wider range of army builds... Second what tourneys count as credible? And of them which have ever been won by a 4th ed nid army in 4th or 5th? (the discussion is about 4th ed nids vs 5th remember?) Third Stelek has some good advice, but is far from always right. and nids are no less viable because he said so than they are viable because AP said they were. The truth is in how they perform on the field and they have shown good performance, but perhaps not as good as IG and SW (and more debatable: BA), but they are certainly viable; the 4th ed nids were simply not...

1. Look at the marine armies that basically had to grab 5+ new rhino's to field an army ( as well as load up on melta's as thats how 5th ed rolls). Guard are simialr with the tank focus and vendetta's... At least with nids all those odd carni builds could be converted to tfex and tervi's.

And on a side note without prior wounding it take a lot more than a powerfist to drop a tfex... First there's something like only a 55% chance that a Pfist attack will wound a T-fex. So unless its a SS/TH termies, decked out BA VVs, or something similar the tervi should handle a round or two until reinforcements arrive.
4) It has. Reference: Chaos. Tyranids gained in viable units and builds. They may have lost uniqueness within units from biomorphs but SM, IG, Eldar, Chaos all lost those particular aspects of their codex as well. There are a lot more armies than Tyrant/HG/Tervi.

3) Tyrants are quite capable as a CC unit. Are they as good as TH/SS Termies? No. Do they need to be? No. Different armies. Warriors are also quite scary in CC but they just roll over and die to TH/SS. What doesn't in terms of point effectiveness? Termagants. 3+ reserve is a lot better than what most armies get in a 4+ reserve. Too many people got caught up in the 2+ reserve factor when the only other army with this option is Eldar. Reserve armies are still viable, I never liked them when they had the 2+ reserve and Primes could come in with Spores and whilst they aren't great, they are still options within another army (i.e. Zoans in spores). Compared to the past though, much better and there are actual options within an army.

2) You can fit in 2 Primes, 4 MCs, 300 pts of Warriors, 6x Raveners and 9x Hive Guard quite easily at 2000 points which can be worked nicely to fit in 5 or more MCs. Tervi/HG/T-Fex/Harpy isn't the only build. It is quite a distinct possibility my Tyranids will be taken up to Centurion but no major tournament wins means nothing. Remember what we think of the validity of those.

1) I've played Nids since late 2nd (i.e. just as 2nd ended so have minimal 2nd experience). I've never felt this way. I've never felt this away about any army except Chaos from 3.5 to 4th when their codex was literally gutted by Gav and I don't even play them. I didn't feel this way when traits were dropped or Craftworlds were removed from SM and Eldar respectively. I may have missed the options and had to make some changes to my army but they weren't wholesale changes and particularly with the new SM book, the change was for the better. More competitive options please. This is the same with Tyranids. Biomorphs were great fun but the new book has so many more viable options. I made my entire army out of what I had before, 2 new Carnifex boxes and 6 HG blisters and I've got about 2500+ points of Nids now and magnets will help me remodel everything if I want to change them later because the models become crap or I want a different pace.
Pinball Wizard's avatar

Pinball Wizard · 742 weeks ago

Had to jump in here. I don't think any book got it anywhere near as bad as Chaos. Nor will any book again. It was such a catastrophe. But the Eldar book has definitely lost its worth. There's no point in me arguing about how it has the short end of the straw in 5th because it was designed for fourth. But that book was an absolute blight on the game. This is an army I actually play and can confidently say is one of the worst wargaming experiences I've ever had. The eldar book lost nearly as much soul as chaos with its strict monotoning. Does this mean that older books with more choice were better because of that? Hell no. Does it mean that newer books should be finding a balance between flavour and competition? Absolutely. I don't see why we shouldn't demand to have it both ways (if we were listened to at all) seeing as the game would be as near perfect as you could get in that regard.
willydstyle's avatar

willydstyle · 742 weeks ago

Dark Angels?
Tyranids never had this many units, period. That's not getting into them getting good units for once.

Your combat unit is a troop, armed with power weapons. Conveniently enough, it packs guns, and brings a lot of useful abilities to the army as a whole.

'That' build of tyranids is similar to 'that' build of space marines. So? No one's preventing you from not running 3 dreads/sternguard - it's just that not doing so lowers your army's power. Same as not running 2 troop tervigons, and a bunch of trygons/tyrannos. What's the point of this argument again?

No, tyranids were trash. Now they're good, and can win. You just have to do less pushing of monsters, and more combined planning and advances to succeed. That is a playstyle.
Tyranids hate being forced to work for wins. Much easier when the army is horrible, so you can play the underdog card.
I agree with most of what Meister_Kai is saying. Tyranids replaced one Nidzilla build with another. Your elite Carnifex lost its Power Weapon and got a better gun. It is still T6 and I charge my Hivers into melee when required. If you want a Nid reserve army not using T-fex/Hiver/Tervigon look at my army here and replace the Tervigon with Warriors. http://lyracian.blogspot.com/2010/12/tyranid-air-...

Yes Marines and Nids are both worse due to the lack of traits/options when you look at them from the point of view of background. I know people that still play 4 Lascannon Devs because they have the models and like them or build an armoured marine company in 4th ed. Not everyone plays (or builds) a Tournament winning army.

Yes every edition GW changes which are the good units (Vindicators for the win in 6th) but a marine with a Bolter is always a Marine with a Bolter whether he is an Ultramarine, Grey Hunter or whatever. It is very easy for Space Marines to just pick up the new codex and run with the models they have. Xeno armies always seem to need new figures because they are more unique in appearance. One of my main Marine opponents just puts laminated stickers on his tanks to say what they are for the game http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2010/12/28/1...
Few people ever played tyranids, and those who did just wanted the 'power' of seven models, plus attendant rippers.
You know, like they claim they don't, because they did it all for the fluff and 'soul.'

Everything that was in that codex is in the new one. Everything.
Nothing got stripped, but most things got changed IN THEORY, but remained the same IN PRACTICE. The carnifex, for instance, does the exact same thing now it ever did, only it's properly costed for a monster. Yeah, so you 'lost' the ability to take two big guns on them.
That's uhh, kinda nothing to whine about.

My marines used to have true grit, dual specials, terminator command squads, bionics, an armory filled with junk, 6 characters from two commands, 5-man squads with heavy weapons, terminator sergeants with combi-weapons... The thing is, as time goes on, armies change. Tyranids had to cut the arms off six models, while I had to reorganize a large chunk of my obscenely huge collection - a process not completed even after two years.

There's just no sense in complaining. I had to give up all the above for a good book, and I'm okay with that.
Why can't the tyranids be okay with stripping a massive six models, and buying/making some of the new, good units? So my devastators, that used to be the cheapest, best, and most reliable way to get heavy weapons are really bad. Does this give me a valid excuse to tell everybody and their mother regular marines are horrible, and GW are only in it to personally spite me and my 'playstyle?'
Meister_Kai said, "However, I was trying (and failed) to convey the feeling that many times Tyranid players (at least the ones I know) feel as though every edition change their entire army becomes trash."

This same thought prompt me to eventually sell my Tyranid army. I talked to other Tyranid-fan-boys and they pretty much say the same thing... and that is how they ended up being fan-boys because with every new edition, they buy ALL the new shit because you need the new shit to field viable lists.

I'd rather stick to my IG and my eventual totally magnetized SM/BA hybrid army thank you very much.

At least I know that my Chimeras, Infantry Platoon Squads, Razorbacks, Space Marines and Landspeeders will work regardless of the eventual new codex rather than just Termagaunts (no wait... even that is not safe... remember the Spinegaunts & Termagaunts fiasco...)

The rest of you guys can continue to support Tyranids at your own peril... you are just giving GW the incentive to just release shit codices with cool new models. Afterall, not too long ago, somebody from the company did say that they release rules for their miniatures just because they WANTED to... not because they HAVE to.

Apparently the 4.5 Ed CSM, SM and Eldar army taught NOBODY (because humanity tends to be myopic) anything about how shitty codices spells doom for everybody (company and consumer alike) huh?
15 replies · active 742 weeks ago
But your guardsmen had to buy chimeras, vendettas, manticores, meltaguns, heavy weapons, command squads, more dudes, upgrade basilisks to medusas, and dump all the 'good' plasmaguns, or reassing them to specialized veteran squads - which you also had to convert and build.

So the above is somehow cheaper than swapping the arms of six carnifex?

Can we also stop pretending that armor's been viable for more than two years, because it hasn't. Chimeras, razorbacks, full tactical squads, and everything that guard currently runs is all new to 5th edition, and would never have been considered during 3rd or 4th.
so if next edition armor goes back to being shit we can just quit this hobby because its nothing but a merry go round? xD

btw, i agree with your comments. i am a new IG player myself, hence I did not feel the "pinch".
If armor becomes shit again, GW will lose so much money, the company's gonna go belly-up in a week.
So not gonna happen, ever.

When they screwed over chaos marines, privateer press was brought out into the light. Essentially, Jervis and his 'less is more'-decisions spawned the competition.
Meister_Kai's avatar

Meister_Kai · 742 weeks ago

I don't think Guard players "had" to do half the things you mention. Hybrid or almost foot Guard is still suprisingly viable, due to the nature of Guard in that the amount of shots they can produce can be staggering. All the guard players I knew already had HWT and pseudo command squads. Sure trying to play Guard without all the new bells and whistles won't provide the best results, but at least your list won't be complete garbage or unplayable like old Tyranids.
Again though, I had to buy two units to make my old Nid list viable and even then I didn't have to buy the HG as I could use Zoans instead and run a mildly different build. Ask Vince how much he has to buy to make his Guard viable as Hybrid or Mech lists.
Meister_Kai's avatar

Meister_Kai · 742 weeks ago

But what if you decided to not play Tervigons or Tyrannofexes, what if the units just didn't click for you? What is the alternative? You CAN run Marines without Tacticals. You CAN run DE without Warriors. I have never seen a good Nid list without Tervigons, it just seems like too much of an auto-include (even more so than Hive Guard). In fact, what you say about the DE codex is exactly right, it is the pinnacle of balance as far as codices go right now.

Like my story earlier, it is hard to convince new players that the Tyrannofex is a good unit (some say a must use) that costs more than a Land Raider yet sometimes fails to kill even a Razorback the entire game. While seasoned players know better, it is hard for new players to swallow, yet few if any new players (especially ones that don't read sites such as this) will never see the benefit of the unit. This coupled with its all too often inability to actually accomplish more than not dying on the tabletop when fielded is just, eh, I guess.

What Pinball Wizard is getting at, that my friends and I agree with, is that there are just too many "must takes" in the book that clearly overshadow other elements and too many units that I could never see being played on the tabletop (Biovores, Pyrovores, Hormagants, Lictors, Old One Eye, etc).
Then Warriors or Hormagaunts as Troops work. You're not set on Tervigons. Tervigons make a very slow and midfield based list which generally attempts to support a bunch of MCs with gribblies and advance across the board. Warriors/Hormagaunts are a much more aggressive styled list and can be fielded without or with Tervigons. I also didn't have to buy anything for T-Fexes as I converted them from my old Fexes. I hadn't bought anything for my Nids since 3rd ed and my only purchases were two new Fex kits for Tervigons and Hive Guard.

You don't need T-Fexes. T-Fexes work great in the type of list I run because it's the steady plod across the field. It helps deal with armor and range and gives you the option to stop AV14. Too many people want to use the T-Fex as a gunfex and that's it. Send it forward. No one other than TH/SS Terminators and the like enjoy being in combat with MCs.

There's too much focus on 'must takes.' Lists work fine without T-Fexes, Tervigons and Hive Guard. Perhaps not all three together but you'll notice a lot of people don't think outside the box on the Internet and a lot of ideas trickle down.

P.S. what good Vanilla armies don't use Tacticals outside of a Biker army?
Meister_Kai's avatar

Meister_Kai · 742 weeks ago

I don't see Nids minus Tervigons working at all honestly, I have witnessed way too many games where the gants they provide were the reason they won what games they did. Without Hive Guard is also stretch, and you don't need Tyrannofexes, but a list that happens to not have all three? You can play any 5th edition codex without any three random groupings of units in a given book, but Nids without Tervis, HG, OR Tfex? I just don't see it. Sure Guard wouldn't like not having Vendettas, Chimeras, and Veterans, but hey, they still have artillery and MANY other choices to compensate.

I also think it is odd that everyone seems completely against those who picked up Tyranids as the "awesome assault army" and wished to minimize shooting with it. Is this seriously such a crime? I know one player in particular who quit this summer not because Genesteales sucked or whatever nonsense but because he is forced to take X amount of guns in an army that was billed to him as an army that could just crush tanks in CC. People seem to hate that style of "point and click" that so many Tyranid players seemingly wanted, but is it really such a sin to want this? We players that know better know that style of play is subpar, but what about the many people who honestly "just play for fun"? They feel betrayed.

I think there is a lot of focus on must takes because the Tyranid book has many of them. If you take a Nid list through a gauntlet of BA/SW/IG armies that doesn't feature Tervigons and Hive Guard and win, color me super-duper-pink impressed. I won't hold my breath though.

Vanilla marines can use mass Scouts in some dread heavy builds (usually armies that want 5-6 troop choices to pack more killy in). Also as you said, biker armies. Choices like Blood Claws aren't as bad as people make them out, its just that no one plays them period. In an army like Space Wolves were everyone is a grizzled veteran no one wants to play the new recruits :)
I cannot see a DE list without any Trueborn, Warriors and Ravagers.
I cannot see a Vanilla list without any Dreads, Speeders and Tacs.
I cannot see a Space Wolves list without Grey Hunters, TWC and Long Fangs.
I cannot see an IG list without Veterans, Hydras and Vendettas.
I cannot see a BA list without ASM, Sanguinary Guard and Predators.

All off the top of my head the major lists which are balanced from each codex generally has one of those units. There are some obvious exceptions like Pure Bikers or WWP lists just like pure reserve lists from Nids generally don't run Tervi/HG/T-Fexes. Ya pure reserve lists aren't great thanks to the FAQ but the point is there. You can name 3 units from most books that are nearly always in every list. Remember also Tyranids are only a foot list. They can't do mech because there is no Mech option.

I don't see how people have issues with running only assault based armies and cry. This isn't a 'problem' of the Nid codex it's a result of 5th edition. Pure assault = fail.
Meister_Kai's avatar

Meister_Kai · 742 weeks ago

I'm trying not to be an asshat but the only grouping you listed that is hard to not build a list from is the Vanilla Marines one and even then you still have the biker version that doesn't really need speeders (you can just use attack bikes instead). Most of the units you listed are merely convenient (like Vendettas, Ravagers) and not really necessary on any level. All the units you listed are able to be substituted with different choices. I still don't feel like a list without Tervigons or Hive Guard can be good. I've seen lots of people try (trust me, they tried they're hearts out because people wanted to run anything but those units for reasons unknown to me, it took me forever to convince them to try Tyrannofexes which they dropped quickly because they rarely did anything).

As I've said, instead of going from trash to awesome like basically every other 5th edition codex, Nid went from bad to "decent". A lot of long time Nid players don't like getting a merely "ok" codex when everyone else got blowjobs in paperback form. Combine this with the core of every Tyranid army costing 600 or more points (6 HG 2 Tervi 20 gants) and you get a 5th ed codex that lets down both the competitive minded with their "...ok" army AND fluffmeisters who wanted to be able to play "for fun" with "fun" armies. You know what happens when a "fun" SW/BA/IG goes up against a "fun" Tyranid army? I'll assume you can assume.
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Meister_Kai · 742 weeks ago

^That last statement about fun armies isn't perfect, the game can actually be pretty balanced as long as the imperial player doesn't take many tanks.
Let's see good lists without any of those units then. Then easiest is a DE WWP list but Warriors are some of the best carriers for WWP characters (but again we have a completely different army style within the codex here) and IG who can do blast spam and just use infantry platoons. Both of these lists though are minorly sub-optimal because of this though and whilst they certainly have more options to do what is required of them than Tyranids, Tyranid lists don't need 3/3 or 2/3 of the listed units to be good.

Tyranids went from bad to awesome to good (4th -> 5th -FAQ). There are issues with the book, Puppy and I and others don't deny this but it doesn't revolve around HG and Tervigon being really good. I'll doa post on this later.
You had to buy at least 10 vehicle kits, and all your old squads are now illegal.
A 4th edition guard army doesn't work in 5th, at all. Guard are strong because of their armor and guns - not because they have a lot of dudes. Orks have lots of dudes.
Er... 4E to 5E totally invalidated the old SM units: LasPlas 5mans weren't legal anymore, and neither Lascannons nor Plasma are even good in 5E, so those squads are basically wasted. But, for some reason, you never hear people talk about this anymore, they only talk about how xenos books "invalidated" things.

I think the Spinegaunt/Termagaunt thing was pretty shitty of them to do. There is an argument to be made- that Termagants are supposed to be the "default" version and so should be the cheapest- but they shouldn't have made Spinefists a totally worthless choice.

And there are other flaws with the book, too, it's not perfect. But it isn't an abomination, either, and it's no different from any other codex update; everything is different and you need to buy new units. That's how the game works, that's how GW makes money. Do you think they would spend years developing and releasing a new model line and codex if they didn't think they could get people to buy new stuff? Fuck no they wouldn't.
I think Plasma isn't as popular now compared to 4th primarily because melta is able the serve both anti-tank and terminator / mc killing (abid short range... but it does the job minus the overheating BS) and that mech is given a spotlight now.

Plasma is still used selectively, depending on the platform... IG LR Executioners, Sternguard combi-plasma squads are some of the examples, though not that popular (but nonetheless effective in their roles) as mainstream unit weapon loadouts.

I love plasma but I don't understand why it comes at a price significantly higher than melta when it comes with a drawback. Oh... I guess its because of the longer range...
I agree with most of what Meister_Kai is saying. Tyranids replaced one Nidzilla build with another. Your elite Carnifex lost its Power Weapon and got a better gun. It is still T6 and I charge my Hivers into melee when required. If you want a Nid reserve army not using T-fex/Hiver/Tervigon look at my army here and replace the Tervigon with Warriors. http://lyracian.blogspot.com/2010/12/tyranid-air-... A Warrior heavy pod army did win a tournament in Bristol last year; that was when you could put Primes with them...

Yes Marines and Nids are both worse due to the lack of traits/options when you look at them from the point of view of background. I know people that still play 4 Lascannon Devs because they have the models and like them or built an armoured marine company in 4th ed. Not everyone plays (or builds) a Tournament winning army.

Yes every edition GW changes which are the good units (Vindicators for the win in 6th). It is very easy for Space Marines to just pick up the new codex and run with the models they have. Xeno armies always seem to need new figures because they are more unique in appearance. One of my main Marine opponents just puts laminated stickers on his tanks to say what they are for the game http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2010/12/28/1...
5 replies · active 742 weeks ago
Carnifex never had power weapons, because they're monsters, and so ignore armor saves by virtue of being said type.
Now you are just being picky. Power Weapon or Monster Claw, C-fexes have them Hivers do not. That is the real change to Elites. You lost penetrating melee attacks for better guns.
Yeah, and we all know how awesome it is to beat down armor in combat, don't we?
You didn't lose anything.

If you must have carnis, you can run 3x3 as heavy, and still fit in guns from the elites section.
Meister_Kai's avatar

Meister_Kai · 742 weeks ago

A point I am trying to make is why shouldn't the Tyranids have been the army that CAN just beat down armor in combat? Why should they be compelled to take guns in an army that is billed as the assaulter's choice?

Maybe it doesn't sound like fun to you or other people here, but being able to rush monstrous creatures/gribbles across the board and assault tanks is what many of the old Tyranid players at my LGS's wished to do with the codex, it failed them. Why couldn't the codex been the one codex capable of this?

Oh, and its not like 9 Carnifexes (with zero upgrades) cost 1440 points by themselves. Then you add your 6 Hive Guard (300 points) a cheap Prime and some gants and what do you know, you have that old crappy 4th ed Tyranid build again but worse. Happy days.
All books generally fall short of what we wish but in terms of actual options and gameplay and again, a pure assault force will never, ever work. It never really has since 4th (3rd was easily possible with Rhino rush) and it never really will unless GW changes pretty much everything.

Tyranids have some of the best options in combat against tanks with MC statlines, easy access re-rolls (hi Trygon) and mass attacks (Raveners). Anti-tank in combat is never going to be great unless you suppress armor movement...and that's what Tyranid shooting is geared towards!
Agree with most of the article but Warriors. I planned to build an army around 4 units of 4-5 Warriors because I loved the models and because no one else did it. But Cruddace killed the Deathspitter. Those 24" S6 blasts wrecked stuff to the left and right in the old codex.

Now I have a hard time justifying more than 4-5 Warriors in a list. Even then it feels like a fluffy choice and I usually end up going back to the mandatory 2x10 Termagants and 2 Tervigons. But this isn't solely due to the loss of the Deathspitter, it's more to do with Mech-hammer.

Tournament results aside the old codex felt way more unique and in character, while the new one feels bland.
4 replies · active 742 weeks ago
Because burstcannons on warriors is a very bad gun, like, you know. Power weapons, too. So bad. Gotta have overpriced rending claws, and expensive blasts.
Your old blasts hit never, because of BS2, so you had to mutate with +1 BS, and then link the gun. 4th edition was very, very different to 5th.

So, uhh, why don't you run 2x4 warriors in that army?

Yes, mutating numbers makes you unique.
I would think the Warrior Deathspitter / talons build was darn good in the old book. Along with Eternal Warrior maxed out units of them made fantastic substitutions for the Tyrant builds. The only weakness is that the Warrior had no access to psykic powers like psykic scream for the other popular variant lists.

Nobody bothered linking or taking Enhanced Senses for the BS3 Warriors because you are throwing so many templates out from a unit of 6 and that preserving the talons make them an above average counter-charge assault unit.

The new codex reduced the once great Warrior to just a Terminator wannabe with shitty saves AND no EW.
You didn't place the template, and scatter.
You had to hit, then you placed the template.

4th edition, people. For a very brief time, you got to play that in 5th, and it was very bad. Taking warriors meant not taking carnis.

No one cared about your eternal warrior, because you died to bolters. 5+ save.
4+ cost lots extra.

New warriors are 3 wounds each, with a 4+ save, one more attack, armed with super stormbolters as base. If you splash points, you can give them burstcannons, and they get power weapons that instant-death people.
Primes make them WS6/BS4, and the whole thing is comparable in cost to a unit of terminators - one that's an annoying scoring unit, and keeps the swarm in check.

Stop whining.
I got into 40K in 5th edition. No roll to hit with blasts, just a scatter.
Twinlinked Deathspitters weren't popular, because they weren't needed. In the 1500 point army I built up I had 6 Warriors - Deathspitters, +1BS and Scything Talons. Always with a 4+ cover save from terrain or a line of Gants, just like in the new codex. No need for an expensive armour upgrade.
At 24" a spam of S6 Deathspitters really hurt infantry and light vehicles, and they were decent in combat. I miss them. VT2, stop whining about whining.

The new Warriors aren't bad, I just can't justify taking lots of them like I planned to since they went from anti-infantry/anti-light vehicles, to only anti-infantry in a codex were every unit choice and it's mother is anti-infantry. It's not the end of the world, I like the new codex as a whole. But I miss the Deathspitter.
Mutations weren't such a big deal. After all, the IG lost its Doctrines, and Space Marines, their Chapter Traits. Does that make these armies "bland" and "soulless"?

I know, for one, that the current IG, Tyranid, and SM armies are far more characterful than the infamous 4th Edition MEQ gunlines, all-deepstriking IG armies, and Nidzilla builds.
1 reply · active 742 weeks ago
I can't +1 this harder.
Truthfully the bulk of my peeve is not the carnifex yadda yadda thingy...

Its that the new book didn't address the new game design mechanics that are allowed in other newer codices.

1. Things like taking a winged Tyrant (Or even having a Flying Tyrant SC) allows you to take Gargoyles and flying Warriors as troops.

2. Zoanthropes that have a psychic power to "combine" their shooting attack.

3. Termagaunts that explode when they die.

4. BETTER and more Psychic powers. WTF are those in the new book?

etc.

Like what somebody mentioned above, the Tyranids fanbase was very excited with the new book because of the possibilities opened up by other codices prior to it but somebody inside GW decided to shit on the codex instead just to prove a point that new shiny miniatures will be lapped up regardless if the codex worked or not.

Hands up from those who think the Tervigon is just an experimental unit that won't be there in the next codex.
4 replies · active 742 weeks ago
1. Tyranids have 5 troop choices already, they do not really need a way to get more, and you did get this Termaguants make tervigons troops. Just because it is not the change you wanted does not mean that a similar mechanic did not happen.

2.) Why, what other codex does this? Guard psycher battle squads? Did you need a shooting attack better than S 10 Ap 1 lance?

3.)Again why? What book has 5 point troops that do this?
5.) Really? you have more Psychic powers than just about any other book, the problem is that only certain creatures can use certain powers. I would perhaps have liked to have seen the ability to take any psychic power on any unit, but there is no need for more. As for better, Paroxism is good, Catalyst is good, onslaught is good, Warp lance, and warp blast are good, The Broodlord powers are decent, as are some of the other hive tyrant powers. Look at every other codex, how many good psychic powers are in those codices.
Wolves have 3 or 4, Blood angels have 3 or 4, Codex marines, have 3 or 4, Eldar have 3 or 4, Chaos Sm have maybe 2 or 3, Guard has what 2. Thats pretty much it. Dark angels= none, Daemonhunters = none, Witch Hunters = none. Tau, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Templars don't even have psychic powers.
5) i can't be bothered to make a rebuttal to this comment.
1). this is sometimes referred to "army multiplication".

2) does it always need to be S10 AP1 lance?

3) did i say only stock termagaunts can do this?
First and foremost, I agree with the OP. The new book is vastly superior to the old one. Is it now good? Debatable.

I think there are at least two, more or less separate points of complaint from the perspective of long-time Tyranid players. One is that the army is still advertised as an unending horde of bugs that suffocate their enemies under the mounds of their dead. Way back when in second edition the army was actually capable of doing this. The description of the army has not changed, but the game play has drastically. So if you are getting into the army based on what you think/hope it will do, as opposed to what it actually does, you are in for disappointment. Yes, every army has this to a certain degree, but I think it is worst in Tyranids. No one I know of picked up Tyranids for their shooting. I can't really think of any other army that has gone through such a dramatic evolution in the time I have been playing, with the possible exception of Eldar.

The other problem is, as other people mentioned, that when you look at the recent run of 5e codexes it really looks like the bugs got the shaft. They went from very bad to not bad, while IG/SW went from bad to OMGWTF. The release of DE further compounded the feeling of being screwed, as it is a codex perfectly suited to demolishing nids. Throw in that a number of key units are still without models, and it leaves people feeling distinctly unloved.
3 replies · active 742 weeks ago
Meister_Kai's avatar

Meister_Kai · 742 weeks ago

This is sums up the feelings of my local players pretty damn well.
Well, I guess GW was wary about fucking up a codex 10 years in the making and being sculpted by one of their oldest serving sculptors.

THAT and coughing up the dough to actually give this faction a total revamp.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if they need to do with same with nids, they would have done the same thing.

To a degree, the Tyranids fanbase and the popularity of the faction fell victim to its own success.
A lot of the new models are very good. The new Trygon kit is gorgeous, the plastic gargoyles are a god-send, and I like the Hive Guard and Venomthropes. The Pyrovore has a nice model, it is just the rules that are utterly useless. So I am definitely not saying that they got no love at all.

And I appreciate that the studio has limited resources and that DE probably were sucking down a lot of time and energy. There is an interview with Alessio in which he admits that developing Two Towers caused the previous Skaven book to get inadequate playtesting, so we know this does happen. I don't think they deliberately released something half-assed because they knew Tyranid players would still buy it, I just think they did a bad job in some respects. Possibly because they did indeed have too much else on their plates.
Auretious Taak's avatar

Auretious Taak · 693 weeks ago

I actually quite enjoyed this article AbusePuppy. Having read the crap that Big Blow Fly is pissing out on BoLS right now for Nids (granted, some concepts are interesting, but his closed mindedness and his playing of rules combinations that were FAQ'ed in the first FAQ wrongly alongside statements of definites - Tyrannofexes are stupidly priced, they cost as much as a land raider and don't do shit compared to a Trygon - he runs Trygon Primes which cost as much as a land raider redeemer and die to a squad or two of long fangs whereas most LF units can't wipe a Tyrannofex, great comparison ill thought out!) I turned to your articles here as I do want to go back to my nids. So thanks for the analysis, it's almost a year on now, but it is still really relevant and quite a useful comparison to remember.
itcamefromthedeep's avatar

itcamefromthedeep · 691 weeks ago

I think this post started off bad and aged badly. The 4e codex would do better now than the 5e one, if only because you could kill tanks at range in every slot but Troops and it didn't have that crippling vulnerability to Grey Knights. Those factors alone make this analysis look like the inane ramblings of a fevered imagination.

In comparing the new Tyrant to the old AbusePuppy tries really hard to forget that Implant Attack existed (and he gets his numbers wrong). New Tyrants are not as threatening.

Nidzilla proper died when 5e came out. After that, you'd be a fool to take more than 5 or 6 MCs. You drop at least one for Warriors so that you have more Synapse for the Gaunt broods you're taking in abundance and you drop another for Biovores. During that 2 years or so before the 5e Tyranids came out I made great use of Warriors with Deathspitter/talons, toxin and carapace. They sat at 37 points a model and did a great job of putting lots of wounds on models clustered around access points.

4e Biovores hurt car parks badly because they have a hard time missing and 2D6+3 against side armor (even when you just clip the vehicle with any part of the template) is going to hurt a lot of vehicles. I'd pay 65 points a model for 4e Biovores in this 5e environment. Abusepuppy however seems to have only played against so-called "baby seal" Tyranid players (and sounds like he was one himself). A big clue here was 148 points for a Sniperfex... because that sure doesn't sound like a Carnifex with a 2+ armor save and a 5th Wound to my ears.
4 replies · active 690 weeks ago
>if only because you could kill tanks at range in every slot but Troops
Er... no. The old codex had NO anti-tank at all; it had suppression from Sniperfexes, but one S8 shot @ BS3 is not anti-tank, not for 150pts. Fast Attack couldn't kill tanks; realistically, HQ couldn't either, and of course the Troop slot was useless.

>not vulnerable to GK
Yes it is. While it might not care about Force Weapons, everything else about GK still tears it to pieces.

>In comparing the new Tyrant to the old AbusePuppy tries really hard to forget that Implant Attack existed
....
....
Implant Attack was fucking terrible before.

>Biovores in 5E
Er, no. Biovores in the old book were shitty as hell. Oooh, I can get a S3 small blast, that's totally worth 60pts.

>2d6+3 will hurt a lot of vehicles
Do you know math? Needing a nine or better to penetrate on 2d6 is pretty awful.

>Deathspitter Warriors
Yeah, they're pretty okay firepower. Now look at their survivability; are you gonna soak up wounds from Splinter Cannons, Multilasers, Heavy Flamers, Psycannons, etc? Nope, you're going to get shot once or twice and your 150+pt unit will die.

>sniperfexes should have extra upgrades
No, they shouldn't. Being cheap was the virtue of the old Carnifex- rather than buying two of them with BS/VC/Senses/Carapace/Chitin, you bought three of them without the survivability upgrades.
itcamefromthedeep's avatar

itcamefromthedeep · 690 weeks ago

The old codex had warp blast in HQ, strangler/talon fexes in elites (because they were good for their price), and Zoanthropes and Biovores in heavy. I derped on Fast Attack, sure.

The 4e codex cared less about Psyflemen and Purifiers (not that they existed at the same time). It also cared less about Paladins with its abundance of S8 templates.

Implant Attack worked on Eternal Warrior, and worked on every unsaved wound. I sure hope I don't need to explain how handy that would be when fighting anything with Wounds these days.

I know enough math to see that 9+ to pen side armor on a rhino is in autocannon territory, and 8+ against side armor on a Manticore or Chimera is like a krak missile to the front. They match krak to the front of a Predator or Vindicator. They end up particularly accurate against against bunched-up vehicles. You put 3 (or more) reliable krak-equivalent hits into a spread of vehicles in a Guard car park and call that "shitty as hell"? On top of that you're denying cover from terrain, and that's a long way from nothing. Incidentally removing models from MEQ units around access points is a perk, not the selling point.

Old Warriors took multilasers, splinter cannons and heavy flamers a lot better than new Warriors take krak missiles. Survivability issues are nothing new and haven't disappeared.

You bought two Sniperfexes with upgrades and then you took another Heavy choice. Find me a player who wouldn't pay 15 points for another wound on their TMC and I'll show you a fool.
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itcamefromthedeep · 690 weeks ago

Found the anti-tank in Fast Attack: Spore Mine clusters.
>Warp Blast in HQ
Not if you wanted BS4 it didn't. Well, okay, you could shoot the blast version, but not the S10 one, which was what mattered.

>Boomfexes in Elites
A single S8 BS2 shot is not anti-tank.

>the old codex cared less about.....
Yes, but it also was pretty much without actual solutions to... anything. Hive Guard may have problems, but at least they can kill tanks. What would you do with the old codex to kill 10+ vehicle hulls? Nothing, basically. Your three Zoanthropes are dead before they ever get to shoot (and also you still have to beat Hood, Aegis/Reinforced Aegis, etc.)

It could kill Paladins with comparative ease, sure. So what? Paladins aren't what's dangerous to Tyranids.

>implant attack
It was expensive and it only sorta helped. Most models are single-wound. Implant Attack does nothing for that. It helps you kill characters and multiwound models. If your opponent is stupid enough to throw those models against your IA units, they deserve what they get. If you buy IA on every melee combat unit, enjoy wasting 100+pts. Multiwound models simply aren't that common.

>Bio--Acid Mines
>i know enough math
You clearly don't. Bio-Acid were okayish against Chimeras (because of side AV10)... assuming you could hit them. And were alive. Neither of those are great assumptions given lousy accuracy and T4/W2. Needing only an 8 to pen is 42% chance... which is to say it's like having one BS3 Missile Launcher. Guess what? That isn't good. There is a reason IG and Tau want multi-shot or twin-linked weapons- single shots with that kind of accuracy are not useful, and certainly not for 60pts.

>you call that "shitty as hell"
Yes I do. Why did the IG player bunch up all his tanks? They do that against other shooting armies to gain cover. Against Tyranids, they don't need it because Tyranid shooting is very weak. You aren't going to see big clusters of tanks to shoot at. Even then, you're getting three pseudo-Missiles for 180pts. Whoo. What do Devastators cost again? Oh, right, 2/3 of that and with more shots and more survivability.

>old Warriors vs new
If you're taking Warriors, take a Prime. That, combined with having MCs in the list, solves most of the issues with S8+ guns. Bolters and Multilasers are more commons than Missiles and Lascannons.

>Find me a player who wouldn't pay 15 points for another wound on their TMC and I'll show you a fool.
The extra wound was a good buy. The armor increase was not. You implied that taking both was semi-mandatory. I said otherwise.

>spore mine clusters are anti-tank
Yes, friend, for the low, low price of 36pts, you can have three one-shot Worse Than a Missile Launcher that arrive on a random turn and scatter to places you don't want them to be. But that's not all- they also give up kill points and, if you act now, we'll throw in the ability to be shot to death by Lasguns for absolutely no cost!

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